Interoperability?

[kontrolphreak]

I have a couple of questions for LON/Tridium programmers.

Can you create new objects (eg. input, output, schedule, trend, alarm, etc.) using another manufacturers software in LON free programmables? For example say you wanted to use a spare input to control a exhaust fan on a controller already commissioned on a network. Can you use another manufacturers front end/Tridium to create the object (output & schedule) in the controller and then link the objects say to a schedule you also created in the controller? Or would you have to use software from the same vendor as the controller?

With Tridium programmers same questions with BACnet. Can you use it to say create a input on a Delta DSC controller?

kontrol out

[leaflying]

Can you create new objects (eg. input, output, schedule, trend, alarm, etc.) using another manufacturers software in LON free programmables?
If the given controller manufacturer provides LNS plug-ins, then theoretically any LNS client software from other manufacturers can launch the plug-ins and create new objects. The learning curve of using the plug-in is another story. There is no common way of how object creation and logic programming should be performed.

Input, output, schedule, trend and alarms are not covered in Lonworks, so they are implemented proprietorially by each manufacturer. Lonworks only defines common network variables (NV) and configuration properties. There is no standard NV for each type of object, because NV is defined to serve true engineering purpose. A temperature input usually use SNVT_Temp_P (there are more than 1 NV type for temperature). A valve modulating output usually use SNVT_percent. But this is not guarantied, some use SNVT_voltage for 0-10Vdc input and output. As for schedule, some use SNVT_TOD_Event, some other use SNVT_occupancy. Schedule is not defined in Lonworks. There is no common way of changing schedule objects in different controllers from different manufacturers. This is manufacture specific. There are NV type for alarm points but the alarming mechanism (pushing alarms from controllers to frontend alarm console) does not exist in Lonworks. Some situation on trend. So either these is handled by frontend by constant communication to controllers, or you will see a lot of creative ideas at controller level from different manufacturers.


Can you use another manufacturers front end/Tridium to create the object (output & schedule) in the controller and then link the objects say to a schedule you also created in the controller?
As long as the front end is also a Lonworks network mgmt tool (LNS client or low level Lon implementation such as Tridium), linking network variables is not a problem. Object creation depends on the availability of LNS plug-in or Tridium Wizard. And not all front end supporting Lonworks is a Lonworks network mgmt tool, e.g. Honeywell EBI.


Or would you have to use software from the same vendor as the controller?
The software for object creation is always from the same vendor as the controller. Linking network variables is standarized as the basic function of the Lonworks network mgmt tool.


With Tridium programmers same questions with BACnet. Can you use it to say create a input on a Delta DSC controller?
No, unless Delta decides to develop a Tridium Wizard to support this.

[kontrolphreak]

leaflying,

Thanks for the detailed response.

I was hoping that Tridium would be able to create BACnet objects in other vendors BACnet hardware, like some of the other front ends. How is the user/configuration GUI in Tridium? Once an object is "discovered" into the Niagara framework, can I configure/modify it (eg. set schedule times, alarm parameters, alarm recipients, COV settings, etc.)? And I am aware that this is all contingent upon the BACnet vendor supporting the ability to create and modify objects in their controllers.

Are there any BACnet manufacturers other then Distech and Invensys that have Tridium plug-ins? Has anyone used the Distech line of BACnet controllers and if so what are your impressions. Is there any detailed data/specification/PIC sheets on the controllers?

kontrol out

[Rick_h]

leaflying,

Once an object is "discovered" into the Niagara framework, can I configure/modify it (eg. set schedule times, alarm parameters, alarm recipients, COV settings, etc.)? And I am aware that this is all contingent upon the BACnet vendor supporting the ability to create and modify objects in their controllers

kontrol out

From my very limited knowledge (just took Niagara cert course last week) Yes. You can once discovered and added to the database set up scheduling, alarm parameters, COV settings etc. Once discovered its like any of the controllers objects.


leaflying,

Are there any BACnet manufacturers other then Distech and Invensys that have Tridium plug-ins? Has anyone used the Distech line of BACnet controllers and if so what are your impressions. Is there any detailed data/specification/PIC sheets on the controllers?

kontrol out

From what I remember to work with BACNet devices (once the points are already exposed with the BACnet vendors software) you add the bacnet driver to the tridium stations network, then simply discover the device, add it to the project database and discover all the exposed points. So far as spec sheets on the controllers. you would have to get them through respective individual websites. I'm not sure if this helps at all but my experience is still pretty shallow (5 days of course)

Cheers,

Rick

[kontrolphreak]

Rick_h,

I was wanting to know if any other vendors have "plug-ins" that would allow you to do more then "discover" objects, but actually configure the controller, add/delete points, edit code and objects etc. I understand that once the objects are created they can be pulled in to the Niagara framework.

Is there any talk of Niagara being able to create objects in 3rd party controllers in the future? For example I can use Automated Logic's WebCTRL to create a new input or trend on a Delta DSC1146 or use Delta's ORCAview to create and configure a schedule or alarm in an Alerton BTI100, is this possible with Tridium? I assume you could create these objects in the station and just link them to objects in the controller as a work around, but can it be done at the individual controller level. And does the LON protocol support such inter-vendor configuration?

kontrol out

[leaflying]

I was hoping that Tridium would be able to create BACnet objects in other vendors BACnet hardware, like some of the other front ends.
I don't think Tridium support BACnet CreateObject and DeleteObject Services. At least not that I am aware of.


How is the user/configuration GUI in Tridium? Once an object is "discovered" into the Niagara framework, can I configure/modify it (eg. set schedule times, alarm parameters, alarm recipients, COV settings, etc.)? And I am aware that this is all contingent upon the BACnet vendor supporting the ability to create and modify objects in they are controllers.
There are 2 aspects.

One, after all objects discovered into the Niagara framework and become Niagara objects in local database, Niagara schedule times, Niagara alarm parameters and Niagara alarm recipients (to Niagara stations only) can be configured and modified. This is what Rick_h has mentioned.

Two, using native BACnet services to configure/modify set schedule times (yes, via controller schedules directory), alarm parameters (possible via controller Virtual directory), alarm recipients (possible via controller Virtual directory), COV settings (not sure). Alarming is a little tricky, I had some successes and some failures on different controllers.


Are there any BACnet manufacturers other then Distech and Invensys that have Tridium plug-ins? Has anyone used the Distech line of BACnet controllers and if so what are your impressions. Is there any detailed data/specification/PIC sheets on the controllers?
Honeywell Spyder BACnet uses Tridium plug-ins, but I personally do not think they are true BACnet controllers hence not recommended. I haven't tried Distech new BACnet controllers. Heard they are very similar to its Lonworks version.

[leaflying]

Is there any talk of Niagara being able to create objects in 3rd party controllers in the future? For example I can use Automated Logic's WebCTRL to create a new input or trend on a Delta DSC1146 or use Delta's ORCAview to create and configure a schedule or alarm in an Alerton BTI100, is this possible with Tridium?
I can ask this question to Tridium during Niagara Summit.

I haven't created BACnet inputs and outputs in a foreign tool, so am curious. Device type in Bacnet Input is a text description only. Do Delta or ALC share same list of strings? Or how do you configure input characteristics such as 10K type 2,3, platinum 485/495 and 0V=0 psi, 10V=2.5psi?


And does the LON protocol support such inter-vendor configuration?
As far as I know, these items are not in Lonworks interoperable part (schedule, alarm, trend can not be found in Lonworks XIF and resource files although there could be some customized manufacture specific configuration properties handling these), plug-in is the only mechanism.

[kontrolphreak]

leaflying,

I could not create any objects in ALC controllers. ALC is great at creating objects in the Delta controller, not so good on the configuration side. I have not played around with WebCTRL display objects (next stage of testing) at this point and from what I have read they allow greater modification of object properties. ORCAview has the ability to create objects in the Alerton controller and has a good interface for configuration of BACnet objects.

So far I have integrated Alerton, Andover, Automated Logic, Reliable Controls, JCI (Viconics), Amman and Delta Controls into the test bench. I have a couple of controllers from other manufacturers that are BACnet but I haven't been able to integrate them due to communication configuration issues. I have been able to create objects in all of the controllers mentioned above other then ALC, JCI and the Amman touchscreen (haven't attempted to integrate this beyond seeing it on the network).

I look forward to integrating some LON controllers into the network once the CatNet platform arrives next week. I have had basic training on LON about 5 years ago (tac Vista), but only worked on two small projects before moving onto another control line. I look forward to it.

What is the most cost effective LON network management tool? As this is all funded out of my pocket I always have to look for a deal. Are there any tools that have a evaluation period? Or that work for a couple of hours before shutting down like Andover?

kontrol out

[amigo]

I think Circon Network Integrator is one of the most cost effective management tools.

I think NL220 may have a trial version, but you need to check with them:
http://www.newron-system.com/index.php?Page=soft&Traite=detail&Prod=nl220te

There are of course other management tools that do a great job. But for the money I prefer circon NI first, then others.

[klrogers]

leaflying,


What is the most cost effective LON network management tool? As this is all funded out of my pocket I always have to look for a deal. Are there any tools that have a evaluation period? Or that work for a couple of hours before shutting down like Andover?

kontrol out

Distech's Lonwatcher works for 30 days but will only create a 4 device network. I agree that Circon NI is probably the best value if purchasing the full version.

Kevin

[checkvalve]

Using a Niagara (Tridium) station there is a view on each device which is the BACnet Config Manager view, which is basically a view on the device object. In this view you can add or edit objects in the devices such as AVs or schedules.

[GONFISHN]

For example I can use Automated Logic's WebCTRL to create a new input or trend on a Delta DSC1146 or use Delta's ORCAview to create and configure a schedule or alarm in an Alerton BTI100, is this possible with Tridium?

kontrol out


Have you ever tried any of this with TAC I/A series BacNet controllers?? Reason I ask is I am going to a site tomorow to try and communicate with some of these devices with Delta. Was out there Friday and did not think about baud rate issues. Seems this may be where my problem is. Just curious to know if you have and if I am successful tomorrow I will let you know.

[kontrolphreak]

Have you ever tried any of this with TAC I/A series BacNet controllers?? Reason I ask is I am going to a site tomorow to try and communicate with some of these devices with Delta. Was out there Friday and did not think about baud rate issues. Seems this may be where my problem is. Just curious to know if you have and if I am successful tomorrow I will let you know.

No I haven't. The I/A controller I have does not respond to "Who-Is" during discovery. I purchased it used and was hoping that it was configured for communications. It does have an "I-Am" button on it that I haven't messed with. The PICS will have the information as to if and what objects can be dynamically created. Just checked them on the BACnet International website and sadly they do not support objects being dynamically created and/or deleted.

kontrol out

[butsu]

Rick_h,

I was wanting to know if any other vendors have "plug-ins" that would allow you to do more then "discover" objects, but actually configure the controller, add/delete points, edit code and objects etc. I understand that once the objects are created they can be pulled in to the Niagara framework.

Is there any talk of Niagara being able to create objects in 3rd party controllers in the future? For example I can use Automated Logic's WebCTRL to create a new input or trend on a Delta DSC1146 or use Delta's ORCAview to create and configure a schedule or alarm in an Alerton BTI100, is this possible with Tridium? I assume you could create these objects in the station and just link them to objects in the controller as a work around, but can it be done at the individual controller level. And does the LON protocol support such inter-vendor configuration?

kontrol out

Hi, the ICS-709 and 852 controller family for modular Inline- IOs / LON-709 and 852 + BACnet/IP supports JAVA + AJAX + WEB Services. The system level functions for scheduling, trend, alarm are one to one compatibel to Niagara-AX so you could create a schedule in the ICS, load to JACE, modfiy there and write back to ICS. NILS is an AX based DALI lighting conifguration tool for ICS-DALI solutions. ICS+Inline therefore could be used as field devices below JACE. The IPOCS programming tool for ICS is capable of creating NVs and BACnet objects in the ICS, IPOCS-AX is an environment to transfer these interfaces into the AX environment more or less automatically.
Hope for "open skies" to come over to Las Vegas next week - assuming Southern winds in Mid-Europe...

[crab master]

I would make a phone call to Echelon or someone with LON network management software and see if they can work some kind of a discount/deal. I know I've simply called them and asked for training credits and they gave me like 60 for free.