CO2 Glycol Store Pictures

[bryan l]

Well its been done for about a month now and running really really well! Some of you guys know on here that up in the Great White North in Calgary we put in one of Hill Phoenix's Second Nature CO2 and Glycol stores. (every bell and whistle available... LED lighting, etc etc.)

We are using 100% of our refrigeration generated heat to put back into the building and hot water. Currently we are getting down to 14f at night and using 2hrs of natural gas for the entire grocery store!!!(we are still fine tuning and will be able to cut that down drastically)

Case temps are very tight (our cases run 1 degree diff... thats 1/2 a degree on both sides of Set Point!!! :eek2:)

I will post some pics of the final piping with everything labeled and claded.

http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/318853/1/Hill%20Phoenix?h=1fc7a4

:playing:

[MikeySq]

cool http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/images/icons/icon14.gif

[dandyme]

lot of piping there

how big is the piping? 4"-----------6"

[bryan l]

lot of piping there

how big is the piping? 4"-----------6"

In the house its 6'' and 4'' for some of our overhead. The rest of the overhead is 3'' and 2 5/8''

[yellowirenut]

very clean and thought out..impressive.



i doubt i could afford to shop there.

[mspanky]

Nice shot of our service trucks. :playing:

[750valve]

Nice work there, so are the LT cases glycol too or DX Co2? If glycol what % or is it another fluid? We have a few sites using "Temper -40" as the secondary - pretty nasty stuff if air gets in! How are you defrosting LT systems?

[hvac248]

Very nice! With CO2 having a "Global warming" index of 1 per pound and most
refrigerants having a index of 2000-4000 per pound . This is the future hear and now!

[bryan l]

The LT is a flooded Recirculated co2 system, not dx.
All of the freezers and two of our WIC's (running on glycol) are electric defrost

[bryan l]

Very nice! With CO2 having a "Global warming" index of 1 per pound and most
refrigerants having a index of 2000-4000 per pound . This is the future hear and now!

Allot of people are skeptical and I must admit I was one of them. The install cost is higher (naturally) but I can see how the current tech is well on its way to morphing into a viable alternative. And lets face it, DX stores are not going anywhere until our cost of ref makes it prohibitive. Companies are moved by $$$. Dont fool yourself in thinking that ANY of them have a REAL environmental conscious. Companies may put in 1 or 2 of these stores in just to beat the green drum. BUT some companies seem to have found out that this is not just a parlor trick designed to gain media attention. Wal-Mart (and no I am not a fan) seem to be going hot and heavy into this technology. If Wal-mart is willing to spend the money on these systems it tells me its heading in the right direction.

[jpsmith1cm]

Allot of people are skeptical and I must admit I was one of them. The install cost is higher (naturally) but I can see how the current tech is well on its way to morphing into a viable alternative. And lets face it, DX stores are not going anywhere until our cost of ref makes it prohibitive. Companies are moved by $$$. Dont fool yourself in thinking that ANY of them have a REAL environmental conscious. Companies may put in 1 or 2 of these stores in just to beat the green drum. BUT some companies seem to have found out that this is not just a parlor trick designed to gain media attention. Wal-Mart (and no I am not a fan) seem to be going hot and heavy into this technology. If Wal-mart is willing to spend the money on these systems it tells me its heading in the right direction.

Didn't Wal Mart get into some trouble with the EPA a few years back?

Something about selling used refrigerant? I may be off base, but I thought that I heard something through the grapevine.

[jpsmith1cm]

OH!

Nice looking store.

[cold in alberta]

Nice shot of our service trucks. :playing:

i know guys at your company.i'm in edmonton

[Dowadudda]

is that direct burial piping going on in the dirt? What is that pipe material?

I had a good understanding of the CO2 system when Shaun and I met at the Pittsburgh Mini Convention and after that conversation I came away understanding the sequence.

Not bad. But. You know it doesn't really go far enough to make it appetizing to the number crunchers.

[750valve]

is that direct burial piping going on in the dirt? What is that pipe material?

I had a good understanding of the CO2 system when Shaun and I met at the Pittsburgh Mini Convention and after that conversation I came away understanding the sequence.

Not bad. But. You know it doesn't really go far enough to make it appetizing to the number crunchers.

I am not sure about the US but over here it is EXACTLY the opposite, with impending taxes based on refrigerant GWP the number crunchers are starting to prick their ears up and see that a 25% increase in installation is in their best interest when the increase in refrigerant costs is going to be over 100% in most cases. For a supermarket chain with 700 to 1000 stores the cost savings are massive when the usual leakage rate is factored into the equation.

All new stores over here will be "green" in some way or another in the next year or two. Training is a massive part of keeping the techs up to speed and the stores serviced correctly - I have personally witnessed what would be considered "average or run of the mill" service techs take to these secondary stores - it takes a little for them to gain a full understanding but at the end of the day the principles are simple and they can service them without any detriment to the equipment just fine. Having said that there are still some blokes who don't want to know and who probably don't deserve to know - this will weed out those blokes and they will be left behind and when it is the norm the decent techs will be able to keep a decent wage doing what they do best.

[bryan l]

is that direct burial piping going on in the dirt? What is that pipe material?

I had a good understanding of the CO2 system when Shaun and I met at the Pittsburgh Mini Convention and after that conversation I came away understanding the sequence.

Not bad. But. You know it doesn't really go far enough to make it appetizing to the number crunchers.

Its not direct burial. But we used FoamGlas wrapped in blue-skin in the ground. We sleeved it with DWV PVC between our pits.

[bryan l]

a few more pics and a couple vid clips of the machine house.

[crackertech]

a few more pics and a couple vid clips of the machine house.

Were are they??

[bryan l]

The new pics are at the end of page 4 and on page 5.

The video's I will try to get up tonight.

[crackertech]

a few more pics and a couple vid clips of the machine house.

10-4 So the pic's are here.http://www.dropbox.com/gallery/318853/1/Hill%20Phoenix?h=1fc7a4&p=1

[yellowirenut]

Kroger here has gone to all LED lighting in there cases...how soon till you change those bulbs to LED?

[crackertech]

Kroger here has gone to all LED lighting in there cases...how soon till you change those bulbs to LED?


We don't change light bulbs.:D

[bryan l]

all the case lights are LED (except the service meat... they will be soon ;))

[bryan l]

Here are the vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycxp3D131ng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FHtZeDh7Fs

[-frozen-ocean-]

Nice job! Can you dial into that store and make alot of adjustments? Or is alot of that more hands on? This technology is all new to me.

[bryan l]

We can access the site remotely and adjust anything we need to. Just about everything you can think of is being recorded and automated.

[neumonic]

thats pretty cool man, nice job:cheers:

[-frozen-ocean-]

Are you controlling the store lighting and hvac units off CPC also?

[bryan l]

yes, lighting, HVAC, Heat Recovery, case control, Hell if I spent any more time there I would have it make me coffee as well!

[-frozen-ocean-]

Wouldn't that be nice... walk into a mech room press log in on cpc. press double double then enter. then beside rack dispenses your coffee. then asks you if you want the extra thick ear muffs to go along with it so you can enjoy it in peace while troubleshooting. lol

[bryan l]

I had one on the job.....he was an exceptionally good apprentice I called Bubbles (also known as Kyle) :)

[Executioner]

MY opinion (yes I know the saying) I don't want any pc anywhear near controlling an A/C,Refrig. unit or a car or anything thats a neccesity (spelling?) The reason being if the pc goes down your pretty much screwed.

Electro mechanical you can bypass and jury rig most problems till proper replacements is available.

And as far as Co2 go's......Uhh THE #1 greenhouse gas! so someone esplain how this helps things?????? I like warm temps myself, it's just the whole melting of the ice caps,desalinating the ocean,stopping the north atlantic current and then causing an ICE AGE!! that bugs me type of thing.


Last I heard the whole carbon type thing was bad.. carbon monoxide C2o kills and carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas of like...THE WORST! Co2.




Please Esplain to me how this is good technology when refrigerants take ohh about atleast ten times longer to harm the atmosphere?




I'm not being arrogant,sarcastic or threatening in any way other than trying to understand how Co2 is benificial in any way other than making your drink have bubbles.

(I'm crackin open a beer and making popcorn to enjoy this...:couch::pop:

[jpsmith1cm]

CO2 is the 'standard' by which other global warming gasses are judged. It's global warming potential is referenced as 1.

By comparison, R134a is somewhere around 1400.


http://www.epa.gov/ozone/geninfo/gwps.html

[stonewall]

In most instances there is a switchback or mechanical backup to the computerized rack controller.



As far as global warming potential and ozone depletion potnetial of carbon dioxide:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=89942&stc=1&d=1270944412

[bryan l]

Executioner :payattention:


Sorry but your WAY out in left field and WILL be left behind to fix the greasy spoon equipment if you dont keep up with the tech that has been around for the past 10 years +. Computers are here to stay and are being incorporated into EVERY piece of equipment from the home AC/Heat Pumps, Furnaces to the common Ice machine and obvious supermarket and industrial equipment. I agree that simple mechanical control works just fine and I dont think that we will ever totally move away from the mechanical controls. But fact is that you can make electronics cheaper, more reliable (honestly, just some companies wont spend the $ to build GOOD electronics). Lets face it ever since the 1970's the writing has been on the wall that the mechanical age is over...Digital watches, electronic calculators, digital alarm clocks and the old Apple IIe computers were the beginning of the end for mechanical. The Ref trade seems to be a good 10years behind the tech curve when it comes to electronics but we need to drag some guys kicking and screaming into the 90's at some point ;)

Example the CPC E2 has the computing power of a middle of the road PC from the EARLY 90's... cutting edge huh?

[Phase Loss]

:LOL: what happens once the computers take over and kill mankind?! :LOL:

Computers should be limited to HVAC-Talk and porn, nothing more.

[yroy]

:LOL: what happens once the computers take over and kill mankind?! :LOL:

Computers should be limited to HVAC-Talk and porn, nothing more.

My guess is that there will eventually be a war between silicon based lifeforms that have ethnical differences. These ethnical differences will spur from their generic microprocessor heritage (intel based, AMD based, Motorola based), or their social affiliations to a particular operating system (windows, mac, linux). In the end, however, the underlying masses of neuron microcontrollers will get fed up of being continuously called small, slow and dumb, and will overthrow the remaining government. :hijacked:

[foodstore]

Bryan, We installed a hill glycol system and have had numerous problems.
How has your system performed in Cananda?
Really need help with this... Thanks

[jpsmith1cm]

Bryan, We installed a hill glycol system and have had numerous problems.
How has your system performed in Cananda?
Really need help with this... Thanks

What type of problems are you having?

There are a number of people here who can offer you advice, but you need to direct them a little better.

[kevink1955]

In most instances there is a switchback or mechanical backup to the computerized rack controller.



As far as global warming potential and ozone depletion potnetial of carbon dioxide:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/attachment.php?attachmentid=89942&stc=1&d=1270944412

If I am reading this correctly, why is R502 gone. It is rated lower than 12,22 and a bunch of others.

[jpsmith1cm]

If I am reading this correctly, why is R502 gone. It is rated lower than 12,22 and a bunch of others.

CFCs were banned because of their ozone depletion potential.

Remember the ozone hole disaster? It was before the global warming/climate change disaster.

Don't hear a whole lot about that these days, do ya???

[Blown450]

Very nice pictures of that Hill Phoenix install. I work for there competitor. We are a bit behind the curve with C02. How do you like working with it. What are some of the issues you see with it compared to a DX system.

[bryan l]

Well the store has been running for over a year. It has been running great. We had a CO2 leak in a glass door case in month 3 and a leaking main relief (very small leak). But other than that it has been radio silence. not a call. We heat the store with the heat pulled from the refrigeration and we did not use ANY natural gas for heating the store (through the main building air handler). -30deg day and we kept the building +/- 0.5deg C!!!

What problems have you been having? If you let me know I may be able to help you out, and or point you in the right direction... as well I know some of the factory guys up here and they are REALLY good.

[Blown450]

we are not having any issues testing with C02. We are just a little behind getting it out to the market. We are seeing our pipe size chnaging due to the pressure drop of C02. Especially in our serpentine coils in our Meat display cases. We went from 5/8 to 3/8 O.D.

[MikeySq]

we are not having any issues testing with C02. We are just a little behind getting it out to the market. We are seeing our pipe size chnaging due to the pressure drop of C02. Especially in our serpentine coils in our Meat display cases. We went from 5/8 to 3/8 O.D.

I assume you are testing DX CO2? in those cases?
have you done any secondary co2 testing?

Mike