pay scale?

[ali10]

My soon to be husband does commercial Hvac in the metro-Denver area. He is a licienced journeyman for the past 3 yrs, and completed his 5 yr apprenticeship previous to that, for a total of 8yrs experience. What is the typical hourly pay range he should be recieving? thanks

[qtip]

Two post on the same subject!!

Is it for love or money????? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_1.gif

[coolwhip]

Im not sure about denver, but here in the detroit area he could expect to make 17-25/hr. maybe more depending on what outfit he works for. This does not include benefits such as commissions, company vehicle, tool allowance, health care, 401k, bonuses, etc. when you put it all together, its a pretty good package. Good luck! I would not mind living in denver. I heard that you just got 14 inches of snow.

[ali10]

it wouldn't be for money, I do better! and Denver is a good place the cost of living is high, but the weather is great and as for snow if you live in the mountains you get snow down here it 75 and sunny

[coolwhip]

What wouldnt be for money?

[maxster]

take a look at the 638 rates in NYC on the Metal Trades section,that would be service and install of the HVAC equipment http://www.steamfitters.com this will give him a basic grouping on rates.Journeymen in this area make their own deals at the interview with the union shop for overscale...you either come in high $$$$ or you will never make it up when the union raises are renewed every 3 years here.

[Edited by maxster on 05-14-2004 at 07:41 PM]

[incontrol]

salary.com is coming in about 47K. Don't know if this applies to union extortionists.

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=&metrocode=51&statecode=CO&state=Colorado&metro=Denver&city=&geo=Denver%2C+CO&jobtitle=HVAC+Mechanic+III&search=&narrowdesc=Skilled+and+Trades&narrowcode=SC06&r=salswz_swzttsbtn_psr&p=&s=salary&geocode=&jobcode=SC16000028

[Edited by incontrol on 05-15-2004 at 12:02 AM]

[johnnyonetruck]

I am assuming he is union based on the apprenticeship comment. We union "extortionists" as incontrol refered to us, do generally make a little more than the non-union. I would expect his scale to be between $22/hr and $30/hr depending on the cost of living in your area and the current work situation. I live in Nashville, TN and our scale is split.........journeyman rate is $25.06/hr while senior journeyman rate is $27.66/hr. $47K a year is probably in line for the non-union sector around here. I have several friends who work non-union and are making anywhere from $22/hr. to $26/hr. Hope this helps.

[yvairguy]

come to Palm Springs, or AZ, techs can make 50 per billable hour before benefits

[coolestacman]

You all should remember if it was not for us union extortionist, there would be no such thing as benifits, or decent hourly wages.

[jslimjeff]

Wisconsin Sheetmetal workers and Pipe Fitters Journeymen rates are 28-30 HR depending on Journeymen or foreman scale plus all the union bennies.

[hvac3901]

freinds ex called work so she could try to find out what he was making, she wanted to see if she was getting her cut of alimony. if he is your husband soon to be ask him! i know my wife was taking my check long before we got married.

[Chomper]

Originally posted by incontrol
salary.com is coming in about 47K. Don't know if this applies to union extortionists.

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=&metrocode=51&statecode=CO&state=Colorado&metro=Denver&city=&geo=Denver%2C+CO&jobtitle=HVAC+Mechanic+III&search=&narrowdesc=Skilled+and+Trades&narrowcode=SC06&r=salswz_swzttsbtn_psr&p=&s=salary&geocode=&jobcode=SC16000028

[Edited by incontrol on 05-15-2004 at 12:02 AM]

Incontrol, you are so out of touch. Your base salary is directly based upon the "extortionists" rate of pay.
How is this for thought. If you are making too much money, please give your company a refund.
If you are a contractor then your hourly rate should be at least 50% per hour less than the "extortionists". Would'nt you say?

[beenthere]

I'm non union, and I know that I would make atleast 5 bucks an hour less if it weren't for the unions.

[coolestacman]

You would make to 10 to 15 more if you were union. Think of the benifits and oh the pension.

[kealii]

Oh once again the ugly subject of union vs nonunion scales raises it's head. Deal with it, not everybody wants to work union, this is America we're allowed to make our own choices. Denver scales vary even between unions. A good journeyman can make anywhere from $20 to $30/hr on thier paycheck depending on the size of the shop and if it's union or not. Our union journeymen get approx $27/hr on thier check after all the deductions, of course they haven't seen a pay raise in years as every year when they supposedly get a $1.70/hr raise the union takes it.

[stenfam]

BUT... EVERYBODY makes more BECAUSE OF the strong unions of before!
They are the ones that brought up the wage for the ENTIRE COUNTRY of working class!
myself, I have gotten decent raises the last 7 years or so... Now it is 26.29 on the check, 5.25 an hour contributed to my pension by my employer funds..and more. and I am told we are the lowest scale in the state.

Unions TRULY helped and help us all get CLOSE to what we DESERVE!!!

I kinda wonder although if the servce techs should all just get together and do their OWN thing since we are the stepchild of the UA????????

[coolestacman]

You are right not everybody wants to work union.
Look at what the unions are getting in our industry representing only about 30% of the Techs. (this is in Ontario $35.47 plus benifits and pension.)
If the Unions represented more techs we would easily get 40-45 plus benifits and pension.

[yvairguy]

If your good you can make 50 bucks per hour, or more, as a service tech, working for a NON UNION company that provides insurance, vacation, truck and a 401K. Most of the union guys I know are too lazy to work in a shop that does pay 50 bucks per hour and most wouldn't last but a few weeks because you have to WORK.

Once upon a time some of the most knowledgeable and best workers in the trades could be found in union shops, but these days most of the best and brightest know that there is a bigger paycheck outside of the unions. All too often these days you seem to have people that are lazy don't want to work, or have a history and are hiding within the unions, not that there are not good people to be had but you have to weed through a bunch to find the good ones.

[kealii]

All good points! Personally I've never worked union and never will. I've always been paid above union scale with equal or better benefit package. As my late grandfather who worked in the union auto shops of Michigan taught me, a knowledgable hard worker doesn't need the unions. I've met some great union techs and some slackers that hid behind the union. To each his own. Take pride in what you do and try to always do your best, you will be paid what you're worth.

[stenfam]

50 + an hour?

I can be Bought! I can run with the best of 'em..

where do I send a resume?

[yvairguy]

I wont name companies but you probably see them everyday.

There are several companies in AZ and So. CA where you can make that wage also a few in UT that I know of so I would guess unless you live in the sticks you can find them everywhere. Typically you'll be looking for the companies that run the largest ads in the phone book, they will almost always be a FR company. Usually they will not be hiring because their guys tend to stay, if for no other reason, the pay.

[tinner73]

C'MON........$50/hr.....non-union...$100,000 a year...without overtime....non-union.....hmmmmmmm,i'd have to see a paystub....................

[coolestacman]

I have found that if someone won't give names it probably is not true.
I keep track of the differance between union and non-union rates todate most that claim they make union rate will not show pay stubs, and with further research I have found most are blowing wind.

I have also found that in good time no one wants a union, but when times get bad they want in.

When you get old and can't perform like the young guys you will find out how good your boss is.

[hvacker]

right on chomper. Incontrol is a lakey chump operative for the MAN. And I'm a signatory owner SMW LOCAL 49 and if a worker dosen't cut the best deal for his/her labor they are a chump and I'll bet he got that speel from his employer. Being an employer I can tell you the best you can do for yourself is take the best offer you can find and it's going to be UNION.

[hvacker]

Hey ali10 I got an idea. Rather than let all these business owners and there lakeys influence you why not ask your husband to contact eather the Sheet Metal Local or the Pipe Fitters Local and then decide.

[yvairguy]

Two that come to mind are george brazil and mike diamond. Some in these shops will actually make over 100k per year. So now you have names, am I still a liar in your eyes?

Wake up and smell the coffee folks if your only going to believe what the union is telling you and want to call us that know better liars then so be it, live in the dark. Problem is most people spend more time shopping for a new car than they will shopping for a job. Once most people get settled into the union life, or what they think is a good job, they think they are at the top of the food chain and they quit looking.

If your making 50 per hour don't expect overtime, if you do get called out after hours most of the time you will make a part of the emergency fee but don't expect to make 75 or 100 per hour. Overtime is usually avoided within any shop anyway. If the shop is large enough you'll only be on call for a week every month or so.

[coolestacman]

So what you are saying is you 50 an hour but if you work overtime you still get 50.
Sounds like a real sweet deal!
I tell you those who think they are getting better then union rate there is always a catch. Next thing you will tell me is you buy your own tools.

[stenfam]

I sincerley respect your opinion AND RIGHT, to choose wheather you work union, non union, refrigeration, accounting, etc....
But I just haveta say.. that REALLY.... We all, if you are in the working class,make more because some years ago, people got together, and said we too want to make a decent wage, own our homes, and live good!

Well, the grass roots union movement DID that for all of us!

I totally believe there is alot to be said for TODAY's union, compared to that union, but I STILL am gratefull for my wages. Even BEFORE I worked union, I KNEW the reason I made what I made, and our wages here in this part of the country were so high, was because of the strong unions around here.
I have lived in 6 different states, from Cali to In., and FACT is that the states where the unions barely exist, ALL wages are lower..

but hey, we ALL are refer guys and I respect everyone that works hard for his money like this! Look at us... on here at night.. we are a different breed!


Keep it frozen.............
dan

[flemsteele]

Look these are the FACTS ......you non-union BRAINWASHED morons need to get this thru your head , with all things being equal you make MUCH more $$$$$ working union with better benefits these are just the facts fellas. If you choose on "principle" to make less money for the same work , doing it non-union you are cheating yourself and your family . Most of the NONSENSE I hear from you non -union techs is COMICAL!! The owners of the company you work can say all he/she wants about being a "family", the idea is too be with YOUR OWN family !!

I've worked both sides of this issue, and there is NO comparison. I make at least 110k per year in the check without even trying . I've got the paystubs to prove it. So you keep your "principals" I'll keep my 110k and time with my own family!!

[coolestacman]

So true.

About 12-15 years ago in Alberta, Canada they pretty well did away with the unions. The rates dropped like a stone over 10-15 an hour over night.
They are now getting smart and getting the unions back, but it has taken this long. I believe the unions there are now the fastest growing.
Unfortunatly over time those that have it good will lead them selves to believe that they are making the money they make because they are smart and the boss likes them and not because of the unions.
Slowly the unions will get smaller and next thing you know a job at Walmart will be a good job.

[stenfam]

wel I was thinking..

I just may be a greeter in my later years.. and say welcome to walmart, the coolers are 38 and the freezers are from -10 to 0 !

see ..............

[coolestacman]

To each his own

I'll be a boating and a golfing all well collecting that big fat union pension check!

[stenfam]

I was JOKING! I too am loking at a retirement of pre 60......!

[coolestacman]

Just remember

This game of life would be no fun if there were no loosers.

[yvairguy]

OT...........NO, getting paid 1, 2, 3, or more hours to do a 1 hour job YES, actually that happens all the time. Would you call that over time or 100, 150 or 200 per hour?

So who is brainwashed? A guy working 4 hours on a job that pays 6 or 8 hours but there is no OT, or the guy that works 8 hours getting paid at union scale that pulls OT when it is available? Remember your going to work more than one job today, it's not uncommon to bill out 10-12 hours in a 8 hour day. I've had 20+ hour days and actually only worked 8-10 most of those with a helper.

Tools, yes you provide your own hand tools, if they break on the job most of the time they will replace them, after all it's just a write off.

Believe me for every reason you can give to work union I can give just as many why it's not necessary and how you can make as much or more without the union. So it is unlikely that we will ever change the others opinion at least on these boards.

I actually started off in the trades working union, the only way I may ever go union is if I decided to start a union shop in another state as I believe it would make it a bit easier operate.

Retirement...........lets see my dad never worked union, and never even worked in the fields I do, he retired at 44, he/we lost my mother to cancer when he was 69 so they traveled the world for a good 23 years before she got cancer. If he had to retire at 60 or 65 they wouldn't have had hardly any time left. So actually I'm on a clip to try an retire in 6 years, I will be 45. I already have lost 4 friend to cancer around my age and 4 more that have it now. Believe me you can't retire soon enough.

[acjourneyman]

Me personally, I wouldn't want a job where I had to work overtime.I don't work it even at double time and we are over 36.00 an hour w/o benefits.There is much more to life than giving the gov more tax dollars and going out and buying more crap to put in a garage or house.My time off is valuable, I work as many 4 day weeks as I can afford and just don't over extend myself.I think there is too many people wrapped up in how much they can make but too each his own I guess, it just isn't for me.

[hvacmike]

The wage calc is bogus. The only way people make what it claims in 17603 is working 50+ hrs/wk.
And the rates some claim to make... I really do live in a chicken coupe.. cheep,cheep. cheep....

I want to should start a union. as it is a non-existant entity here. There's no union, no licensing, just EPA Cert.

i once had an employer tell me, " If you don't need to work overtime, your getting paid too much" !

[kealii]

I love all this noise from the two sides. Think about it, are you happy with where you are, what you're doing, how much you're getting paid and who you're working for? If you are, great enjoy your life. If not maybe you should change, explore all the options first. Someone is always trying to tell you how much better they have it than you. Half my union techs love working union, the other half hate it. Reality (and yes I have the paystubs to prove it) I make considerably more than my union counterparts and have a very good benefit package. My health insurance is far better than what the local has and the local admits it, my retirement account is growing quite well with the employer's donations. Do I tell my techs to quit the union, no it's thier choice and I respect it as they respect my choices. Remember, a closed mind gathers no knowledge.

[flemsteele]

OT...........NO, getting paid 1, 2, 3, or more hours to do a 1 hour job YES, actually that happens all the time. Would you call that over time or 100, 150 or 200 per hour?



What the F??? are you talking about??

[brettln]

Originally posted by yvairguy
I wont name companies but you probably see them everyday.

There are several companies in AZ and So. CA where you can make that wage also a few in UT that I know of so I would guess unless you live in the sticks you can find them everywhere. Typically you'll be looking for the companies that run the largest ads in the phone book, they will almost always be a FR company. Usually they will not be hiring because their guys tend to stay, if for no other reason, the pay.



Tell me a company more expensive than or that pays more than Trane Company. Trane tops out is around 28.00
depending on the tech.........

And if you ask me Unions are the reason most of the products we buy go up in price and then imported from other countries so the products will be cheaper. Middle class Americans will not be anything over priced. But that is what happens when you have a guy standing there in charge of putting the screws in , and another in charge of picking up the screw if he drops it, and another guy in charge of buying more screws if he happens to lose that screw.
And god forbid you ask one of them to do something that isnt in his job description. Anyway, you all know where I'm going with that , so I'll leave well enough alone.

And yes I have worked for unions (two different ones.), and it is about a joke and corrupt as hell.

Just a bunch of old farts to lazy to retire and work, so they push it all off on new guys or take advantage of the guys that like to work hard all day.

Just my opinion from the inside...now looking from the outside, and couldnt be more pleased with being out of those corrupt cliques.

[flemsteele]

Trane pays a hell of alot more than $28hr. alot closer to $40hr. . Oh yeah I forgot their union too! Whooda thunkk it scabby?

[coolestacman]

brettln

Do not blame the cost of living on the union worker, last time I looked there were CEOs making 3-10 million base salery and then stock options.
If you look in this post there are non-union workers that are charging 14 hrs for 8 hrs work. So tell me what is worse a man holding a screw waiting for a man to drive a screw and everybody knowing or a man charging for work that he has not done and lying about it. (theft)

I think you are grumpy at the unions because you just could not go with the flow.

I think you should remember that everything the workers have today union or non-union is because over the years there have men and women that unified and fought for benifits, wages, against child labour, working conditions and pensions that no ceo or manager would ever give to the workers otherwise.

[refer dude 2479]

Originally posted by yvairguy
OT...........NO, getting paid 1, 2, 3, or more hours to do a 1 hour job YES, actually that happens all the time. Would you call that over time or 100, 150 or 200 per hour?

So who is brainwashed? A guy working 4 hours on a job that pays 6 or 8 hours but there is no OT, or the guy that works 8 hours getting paid at union scale that pulls OT when it is available? Remember your going to work more than one job today, it's not uncommon to bill out 10-12 hours in a 8 hour day. I've had 20+ hour days and actually only worked 8-10 most of those with a helper.



You are probably one of those people that when you hire someone to do work for you, you never loose sight of them so that you can make sure that they are not reeming you like you reem your customers.

My motto is put in a good days work and get paid an honest wage. It has worked for me for 27 years as a union member.

[double bubble]

ON most days when I'm working like an animal if someone came up to me and said union people don't work hard I'd punch em in the nosex.

[coolestacman]

hey double bubble

brettln is just one of those guys that thinks he is gods gift to HVAC.

doot dulit da doo SUPER BRITTLN

[yvairguy]

coolestacman
If you look in this post there are non-union workers that are charging 14 hrs for 8 hrs work. So tell me what is worse a man holding a screw waiting for a man to drive a screw and everybody knowing or a man charging for work that he has not done and lying about it. (theft)

How do you come up with this stuff? you give a bid for the work, they accept the bid you do the work. If they don't, you don't work. If the shop pays you 14 hours for 8 hours work sounds good to me, sound like your jealous.

[double bubble]

Oh yeah you can keep your 401k last time I checked those things were about worthless . I'll stick to my pension and inuity .

[daytonafan]

Doesn't it depend on how good you are? Will a Union company keep a $40.00hr tech if he sucks? Is there oppurtunity for union guys to make above scale? Let's say a guy has been with the same company for 20 years and is the best tech in town will the company pay him above union scale to keep him around. Every situation is different. I am a non-union residential service tech in northern Indiana. I make $22.00 per hour, have a brand new take home truck, 2 weeks paid vacation, 6 paid personal/sick days per year. My employer pays the health insurance for me and my 5 dependants. (Granted it's not the hottest insurance in the world.) I also get a Christmas bonus each year that has ranged from $3500.00 to $9000.00 going up each year. I do have to buy all my own hand tools but employer provides guages, pump, meters etc... I have been trying for years to get in with a union company for pension and insurance reasons but for some reason they don't hire "rats". How can I not be a "rat" if they won't even give me a chance? As for skill. Please don't kid yourself. I have fixed union techs mistakes in the past.

[coolestacman]

How do you come up with this stuff? you give a bid for the work, they accept the bid you do the work. If they don't, you don't work. If the shop pays you 14 hours for 8 hours work sounds good to me, sound like your jealous.

No I am not jealous, I work 8 I get paid 8 with union rate.
I make $100,000.00 plus every year. The company I work for encourages the mech. to complete jobs on time by paying extra hourly and by the job, we also get commision on recomendations that we make. As for trucks we get new trucks every two years and drive them home. All tools are bought by the company.

[hw chiller man]

No I am not jealous, I work 8 I get paid 8 with union rate.
I make $100,000.00 plus every year. The company I work for encourages the mech. to complete jobs on time by paying extra hourly and by the job, we also get commision on recomendations that we make. As for trucks we get new trucks every two years and drive them home. All tools are bought by the company

Can you please tell me how you make 100 grand plus per year. I am also union with foremans rate at 38 plus per hour an make nowhere near 100 grand.

[hvac3901]

Two that come to mind are george brazil and mike diamond. Some in these shops will actually make over 100k per year. So now you have names, am I still a liar in your eyes?

Wake up and smell the coffee folks if your only going to believe what the union is telling you and want to call us that know better liars then so be it, live in the dark. Problem is most people spend more time shopping for a new car than they will shopping for a job. Once most people get settled into the union life, or what they think is a good job, they think they are at the top of the food chain and they quit looking.

i did wake up to the fresh roasted corffee, i joined the union, and left behind all the non-union b.s., there is crap to be had from both sides acknowledge it and move on.

Mike diamond? you have got to be kidding me.. you would have to pay me $50 bucks in one of those trucks, i could'nt suffer the loss of pride, yes i have seen them, not too often though business must be slow, they usually don't show there trucks until summer time, seasonal work anyone? and lets be honest, mike diamond dos'nt run commercial hvac in califonia, i have rarely ever seen them on cmmercial properties unless they are out trying to snake business, so your point belongs over in the residential forum, not in commercial threads. their favorite sales point is that they can fix anyhting in one stop, because they drive furniture moving trucks with one of everything, this also leads to hackish work. and can you believe those truck charges on the invoices. mike diamond, george brazil. you are talking about a totally different game, much less have the right league.


[Edited by hvac3901 on 06-13-2004 at 05:37 PM]

[aztra]

"No I am not jealous, I work 8 I get paid 8 with union rate.
I make $100,000.00 plus every year"

How did you do your math. 8 hours a day equils 85,500 here. What the rate where you are ?

you must work more than 8 hrs per day

[coolwhip]

Unions, who needs em? Just one big reason to protect lazy people. The hvac unions are the weakist unions out there too. Look at all the crack heads that work on the assembly lines making cars. These guys make tons of dough. A guess a unions motto is the old army saying "you have to f up to move up".

[yvairguy]

They do have well stocked trucks, if the part is not on the truck they will usually have a parts runner bring out the part or whatever you need usually about the time you are ready to install it. Your right they don't work much commercial. FYI Mike Diamond is one of the most successful HVAC and Plumbing companies in Southern California, and he is spreading out through the US. He buys every company he can get his hands on and will run under the old companies "brand" that has already been established for 5 to 30 years in the same area. No different than someone buying a large company and retaining the well established name.

As I already posted it is unlikely that ether side is going to influence the other, at least here on these boards, but I have a friend that turned his shops (two locations) to union a few years ago and they are having such a bad time now finding good people it's really sad. These "residential" companies that you are so quick to dismiss don't have any problems at all keeping employee or finding new ones that my friend with the now union shop would love to have.

I'll keep doing what works for me, you keep doing what works for you, and we all will be happy............

[Dowadudda]

Where do you get lazy from. Folks. You all need to back off the screaming here. And seriously look at what all is being said. The examples of being non union and making 100 grand a year is true but for very few people and very few companies have that set up. Few.

The truth is, for most commercial and industrial mechanics, working in the feild as service guys, union shops pay their men better. They provide for both a pension which include health in your retirement, and a 401K. Most non union don't have even close to the long term benefits of the pension or the health during retirement. Some non union shops don't even have the 401K.. And generally but not in every instance, the dollar per hour is more.

Take a look at your local in your area and compare it entirely to your overall compensation you now receive. If it's more than the local, great, you da man, godspeed. But if it is lower, why on earth would you want to keep that job if you have an oppurtunity as a worthy tech to make more money.

You all sound like the Union is evil and the reason for all things wrong. Our trade union is on your side. There against side jobs, against hacks, against many things we all share as complaints about low life competition. The guy on here and saying he earns 50 bucks an hour as a wage. Hey, who's argueing with you. As a Union, god we hope it gets there for everyone and more. Check it out and know what the facts are before dragging this issue through mud.

It's a great and wonderful issue to talk about. It's about how we as a group can earn more money. I'd like to add here. Most Union Signatory contractors want to be and remain union. Few are dissenters. So basically chances are, you go union, and you may go to work for a owner who is union through and through and wants you to have your benefits and wants you to earn a good wage and wants you to have good training. What a concept hey??? WOW.

Contrary to Popular belief, the United Association of Steamfitters is one of the most progressive and growing unions in the country. I said this in an earlier thread. You get through the 5 year apprentiship that is now in the program and get your journey staus, boy, you'll certainly can say you got an education. And especiaslly so now that Ferris State (top School in our trade) now honors all mechanics who are in the program and reach journey status with an accredited 2 years Associtaes degree.

Isn't that good for our trade? Isn't that what were all about. Don't just give me the money. Let me learn it, then let me earn it..

What is the union doing to stop things from going forward?

The union is doing just the opposite. There trying hard to raise the bar and educate their members, trying to get things better for their contractors. Fighting for a better trade. I don't get why thats such an awful thing??

[sctech]

south carolina ia "right to work" state not many unions here . As for the talk of $50 an hour here you can be paid hourly which will range from 15 to 25 according to your skill level. or you can be paid piece pay ( billable hour) if you work by the billable hour you are responsable for any warranty work on your time also if a repair takes longer lets say 6 hours & the book calls for 4 hours you get paid for 4 hours. The problems I've seen with billable hour pay is some tech's get greedy & dis-honest in the process which is bad for our industry.most company's here pay a straight hourly wage.

[kealii]

Amen Dowadudda! Union or non, we as an industry need to discourage the hacks and fly by nights. Pipefitters do have some of the best journeymen out there! This from a non union supporter. If we on the whole could push everyone to pursue continuing education and minimum competancy licensing our industry as a whole would be better. The shop I manage is under contract to SMW as our owner is a past president of SMACNA and recognizes the benefits of keeping a union shop. Personally I wish our techs were represented by the pipefitters and have been very vocal about it. My personal experience has shown far superior training.
Money wise, a good non union tech with good skills can find a good paying job with all the benifits if he looks for it and demands the pay. If he/she settles for anything less he's a fool.

[johnnyonetruck]

Originally posted by daytonafan
Doesn't it depend on how good you are? Will a Union company keep a $40.00hr tech if he sucks? Is there oppurtunity for union guys to make above scale? Let's say a guy has been with the same company for 20 years and is the best tech in town will the company pay him above union scale to keep him around. Every situation is different. I am a non-union residential service tech in northern Indiana. I make $22.00 per hour, have a brand new take home truck, 2 weeks paid vacation, 6 paid personal/sick days per year. My employer pays the health insurance for me and my 5 dependants. (Granted it's not the hottest insurance in the world.) I also get a Christmas bonus each year that has ranged from $3500.00 to $9000.00 going up each year. I do have to buy all my own hand tools but employer provides guages, pump, meters etc... I have been trying for years to get in with a union company for pension and insurance reasons but for some reason they don't hire "rats". How can I not be a "rat" if they won't even give me a chance? As for skill. Please don't kid yourself. I have fixed union techs mistakes in the past.


Union or non-union, there are worthless bums on both sides. I have worked both sides of the fence and I am happy to say that working union has been far better for me and my family. The answer to your question about mechanics making over scale is YES. I know at least half of the mechanics in our area who are union are making over scale. I know countless people in the non-union sector of our trade in my area of the country.........two of them make as much or more than I do. As for union workers being lazy yada yada yada, feel free to visit Nashville anytime and ride with me......rarely have an apprentice helping me, haven't had a 40 hour check in over 5 months (averaging 55 hours a week), have been working 12-14 hour days lately........yeah, we are all lazy. Yeah, there are those exceptions to all rules out there........non-union techs making $50/hr etc.........but it is rare. The highest paid non-union mechanics in our area make less than $30/hr.....the average is about $22/hr. Our scale is split based on experience and production.....all these just went up last month, but I am close....$25.06 journeyman rate......$27.46 for a "senior" journeyman........$34.66 for top of the food chain, can do anything senior journeyman. Most union mechanics I know are making a little over the $27.46 rate. I know one guy working non-union making $30/hr and the closest to him in the non-union sector that I know is making $27/hr.......2 out of the 50-60 that I know in my area are making what we make or a little higher. My insurance is paid, my retirement is paid, my life insurance is paid, and I have the opportunity for free training on a regular basis. I pay less than $100/month in dues........how many of you are paying $60, $80, $100/week just for medical insurance? Bust out your total package and see what you actually get on your check..........what I get on my check is what I get on my check (less my $93/month in dues)........figure your hourly rate after deductions of insurance, 401K, and whatever else you pay out of your check...........see what you actually make.........it might be interesting. As for not allowing "rats" into union shops.......that is not the norm across the country. We take in qualified mechanics all the time and seldom do they leave after making the change.

[Dowadudda]

I would like to add this. I think it's not spoke of enough. I think it's very clear that a union journey status mechanic makes a good living. And I also know of Mechanics in the non union sector that make more dollars per hour. Exceptional and extraordinary type guys. But the glory of those guys ends at, your future. The union mechanics have the pension and 401K. Including in your retirment your health paid. Most any non union company I am aware of does not have the ability to provide a pension. I am talking contractor, not big big corporate type joint. Thats a biggie to most guys wanting a comfortable retirement. Sure you can slam your 401K to the hilt every year and I encourage that. But thats not a check every month till you die. Thats not your medical insurance and prescriptions every month till your dead.

So say you got best case scenario about 500 grand in your 401K. You retire. Thats all you got. And thats good. But in the union for thirty years, you'll have that, you have a check of about 3 grand a month on top of that, (in todays dollars)thats every month, you'll have your social security with that, if it's there, you then will have medical and all that. You don't have to blow the 401K to take care of all things.

Another thing. Having been small time contractor and trying to figure out how to grow, with recruiting good talent. Good talent costs money, forces me to offer good bennies. The cheapest way to offer a guy, a great wage, a great benefit package, also TRAINING, is to become a union contractor. I hear so many contractors moan and whine about the union being bad. Just the opposite. For a contractor, thats the cheapest way to offer all the bennies and wage. In my area it's roughly 50 bucks an hour for a guy. I think in the final analysis, I might be able to touch that as a non union entity but then I could not offer my employee (s) or even myself the pension part.

And it is truly amazing how proactive the UA is. Take a look for yourselves this apprenticeship they now have. It's not even close to the days of old. These youngsters getting turned out honest to goodness know some stuff. Way more than you'll get out of a young man out of an associates degree at the local tech school. The continuous training alone for the upper level guys, you aint going to be able to afford what they give their guys for free or a minor 50 bucks or whatever for say a DDC controls class. As far as the union in your business. Not true. They do not really at all care to come in and tell you how to run your show. The guys working for you, they decide for themselves if they choose to work for you. I think the only time the union is going to show up at your doorstep is, if you somehow get behind financially with whats owed to your employees.

All I want to really get across is, the UA is on the side of a tradesman whether your a contractor or tech, they want you to make money, they are on our side. The second thing is, I understand in days gone past the union was not great. Today is much different and the UA is adapting to the new way of conducting themselves and there is a hell of a lot more positives to it than in times past. Thirdly. The UA, The IBEW, The Plumbers, the actual trades unions, they can not be in the same conversation as the United Auto Workers, The teamsters. Those unions rely on muscle and numbers. The only way the trade unions remain a viable option for tech or contractor is to really be the best at what they do. If not, if no trade union did not offer these great things to both tech and contractor, the trades unions would not be alive. On the contrary, the trades unions are vibrant, strong, growing, and reinventing themselves with the same ideas I just said.

The Trades Unions recognized that the reason they were declining is everyone was leaving, contractors were saying that, for the money, they were not getting what they were expecting. I am sure at some point the Trades Unions were this greasy hand type environment. So the Trades had to make a decision. Go away or actually start running things like a business. Things are very bright because they chose the smart way to be. It's not the same thing the last time you looked. I have been around this trade and the union stuff my whole life. I can tell you, you would not even recognize the UA of today than yesterday. Go take a look.

[refer dude 2479]

Originally posted by Dowadudda
I would like to add this. I think it's not spoke of enough. I think it's very clear that a union journey status mechanic makes a good living. And I also know of Mechanics in the non union sector that make more dollars per hour. Exceptional and extraordinary type guys. But the glory of those guys ends at, your future. The union mechanics have the pension and 401K. Including in your retirment your health paid. Most any non union company I am aware of does not have the ability to provide a pension. I am talking contractor, not big big corporate type joint. Thats a biggie to most guys wanting a comfortable retirement. Sure you can slam your 401K to the hilt every year and I encourage that. But thats not a check every month till you die. Thats not your medical insurance and prescriptions every month till your dead.



Dowa, from where I am sitting you have hit the nail right on the head and done it very nicely without all of the usual slamming and slander. Everyone has a choice and I made a choice a long time ago to go union. It's been 27 years with a brief 1.5 years stint non-union in another state. I am close to being able to cash out of the trade (at 55) with a baisic pension benifit of about 6K / month. Medical for life will cost me only 320/month. My 401K has not done all that great but it is still in the + and that is mine to invest or leave to draw at a later time when the market improves. There was nothing close to this offered by the non-union shop I worked for. They were good people and treated the mechanics good, and the pay scale was on par with the local economy, but they did not have the negotiating power of the UA and there was no training for the new people they hired. It was learn or get hurt.

My suggestion is this. If you are working in an area where the unions are well represented then that is the way to go. You can change jobs and not have to NEGOTIATE WAGES with your new employer. If you work in an area where unions are weak or non existant learn the trade the best you can by taking trade school classes, and then consider a move to an area where you can join a union. Long term it is a better invesment for the majority. There are those people that can plan their future and stick to the rigorous saving scheme to achieve the same results, but the masses just don't seem to be able to do it. I am one of those. I know my trade, but am a poor financial planner.

[johnnyonetruck]

The UA, The IBEW, The Plumbers, the actual trades unions, they can not be in the same conversation as the United Auto Workers, The teamsters. Those unions rely on muscle and numbers. The only way the trade unions remain a viable option for tech or contractor is to really be the best at what they do.


Amen........It's like being on a different planet being in the UA etc. compared to the UAW or the Teamsters. If you don't cut it in the trade, you will not stick around long. The union has no power to protect slackers in our trade. The reality of our union is far different than the fiction many in the non-union side seem to be fed. I have a friend that I have encouraged for years. I have tried to tell him that he would make more money if he would join the union. The non-union contractor he was working for continually told him that there was no way he could make the money we told him he could. His boss constantly discounted the union as a farce..........he finally made his mind up to find out the real deal about 6 weeks ago. He is making $4/hr more than he was where he was at......not a huge deal until you consider that he is no longer paying for his insurance or 401K. Effectively he got a $7/hr raise. He is glad to pay the monthly dues of $93 to gain $280/week. People like him are the rule, not the exception. There are very few out there making the $50/hr on the check in the grand scheme of things. I'll take my check plus benefits any day over anything you can find around here. Not to mention the brotherhood that develops among union techs........not just the ones working for the same contractor.......but throughout the entire Local. We help one another within the company of course, but even between contractors we help one another. Back-stabbing is not tolerated. We do not "knife" our brothers to get ahead. We take care of one another, our customers, and concentrate on doing the best job possible. For those of you who envision the mob running around forcing our customers to use us, or have this vision of 5 of us changing out a 5 ton compressor on some "Mickey Mouse" rooftop unit, you have been sadly misinformed. I have no desire to organize every non-union tech on this forum.......to each his own......but for those of you who think that we all joined the union for an "easy" job with little work to do..........you are listening to fairy tales spun by those who fear you will someday find out the truth.

[peo353]

The UA would be the 6th largest school district in the U.S. based upon money spent for member education in the trade. The UA realizes the only way we will remain strong and grow is to keep ahead of the new technoligies driving our industry and keeping our members trained to install and service this equipment. The new UA Star program will provide HVAC certification to UA service technicians which will add credibility to our members extensive training background. The UA offers benifits to our members that remain unavailible to the non-union sector of the industry. Contact a local UA office in your area for more information.

[Dowadudda]

Keep adding things here you guys. This is so important to our trade and to our members here and in the UA. Keep it above the belt as well. But keep talking. I invite anyone to add to this. Tell me and the rest of us where you benefited. Many young guys are reading this, many in the middle guys are reading this. It's incredibly important to keep this conversation going..

I see positives but I don't hear the negatives for contractor or tech. I hear some arguement against but those arguements so far have been untrue statements about the UA and not truth.

I also encourage questions from anyone wanting to know and understand the real way it is. Ask away..

[Variable]

We will all be making "Walmart" wages shortly if nimrods on this discussion board continue to try to walk incompetent people through complicated problems. We've all seen the posts, some of us just shake our heads in disbelief, others try to be a hero.

[yvairguy]

I'm with Variable on that one, I had someone the other day tell me they went on the internet and figured out there problem, but they couldn't find anyone that would sell them a compressor. So they called me to BUY a 5 ton compressor, I said we don't sell them but I would give him a good deal on me replacing one if needed. I said I would have to check it out first to make sure we get the right size and to be sure it was the compressor before I bought one, he said you don't keep one on your truck? reluctantly he said ok, found the wires burned at the compressor, it was a 3 ton not a 5 ton repaired the wires and replaced the contactor, then he asked if I would put in a 5 ton compressor(not condenser) in so it would run colder. He learned about enough to get himself in trouble and that's all.

[Dowadudda]

What does this have to do with the discussion on this particular thread.

[yvairguy]

responding to variable's statement, so really I guess you could say what does any of this thread have to do with the original post...........

[gilbert_c]

ROTFLMAO @ union Extortionist. Proud to be a Union Extortionist. Hey! Wouldn't that make a great bumper sticker!
Gil

[mdp]

I've worked around the country a bit as I've expanded my horizons over the years and worked in areas where the unions are strong and where they're non-existent. Along the way I've met hacks, slackers and techs that have made me feel down right stupid (I love hiring those guys, they make my company look good). One thing I've learned is that EVERY area is different. I like hearing of the areas where the unions are living up to thier members expectations. Unforunatelly I can tell you that there are some (just some not all) areas where the UA is still conducting business as usual. These guys are giving the rest of the good locals a bad rep. One shop I'm very familiar with actually voted themselves out of the UA due to some fiscal mismanagement in the union. The local that represents my techs only offers training in residential and light commercial, we're a commercial/industrial company. We dump a ton of money from our own pockets to keep our techs up to speed as the local won't, not enough techs in the local we're told. As I've said, it does vary across the country. Possibly one day I'll be moved to a city where the locals have thier act together and have the pleasure of once again working with first class techs.

[Dowadudda]

Here you go. Here is the forumn for you to speak your mind. I would like to hear of the locals who curreently do not meet the intention of the membership. And I also want to know what "business as usual" means in your perspective?

In addition. In your best guess. Where is it the best you have seen, and where has the worst you seen, and why as far as locals of the UA are concerned?

A local specifically would help too. I want to really know. And I will myself along with all memebership here find out why that local aint meeeting the requirements of their membership.

National, hell even international, you have the chance to speak directly of the entire picture as you see it. I want to know exactly whats on your mind.

[mdp]

Okay, so here we go, please keep in mind that I am only expressing my opinion and all opinions stink. By the term "business as usual" I'm refering to the stereotype of a trade union, I don't know your age but in the old days of my youth the unions had a bad image of corruption and deceipt. I'll be the first to nip this in the bud before someone flames me, the mass majority of the unions have long since gotten away from that image and are working extremely hard to look after thier rank and file. If the union of my day had the reputation and training programs when I started out I would now most probably be a union memeber looking at retirement. Such was not the case. Way too many people still have the idea in thier head that trade unions are corrupt and full of slacker and malcontents that couldn't make it in the world without the union to protect them. Reality check here, yes a union employee can be terminated from his/her position, there are procedures in place that can be followed, I myself have had to let go of employees that just didn't have what it took to be a part of my department. No different than any other segment of society you will always find someone trying to just get by or flat out lie to you, such is life.
My experience only now, Washington D.C. UA always amazed me, top class knowledgable techs, I still hold them to be my standard by which I judge all others. Rock bottom in my book, Central Michigan, bad attitudes prevail. Probably a good training program but hard to tell due to the general attitudes, keep the stereotype alive. Middle of the road, Denver, good guys willing to work hard to get a job done, good training facility. As of last dealings of a while ago, Southern Colorado, has some attitude problems within the local administration, don't understand it what with the tight market down there, the area is full of non union hacks and they try to strong arm the employer.
Currently my techs are with SMWIA, and the local here has the attitude that all members are tinners, doesn't matter if you're a service tech or a T&B specialist. No real training in the apprenticeship and little to no continuinng education courses. We're expected to train them as service them after they turn out. When I need a new journeyman I have to hire the best I can find from the non union market and then make them join the local, there just aren't any qualified techs within the local to hire. This is one of those times that I as an employer wished that my company and the SMW local would allow the techs to change union affiliations. Have stirred up enough crap for everyone now?
In the world in which I live (however small it may be) the union shop can't compete against all the little fly by night and station wagon residential "contractors", but in my world which is commercial/industrial, the unions can prevail thanks to training and customers that are more than willing to pay top dollar for quality work. All the BS aside there are few non union techs out there in the comm/indust field that have the training or even the drive to want to be educated to the level that this field requires. Those non union techs that DO have the desire to learn find that they are in a minority and can demand the money and benefits that are equal to the union.

[Dowadudda]

Well Said.

[mdp]

It's been a pleasure. Maybe we'll continue this discussion at some time.

[flemsteele]

Well said!! Their are sh*tbums both union and non-union , the UA cant protect the sh*tbums on the service side of this business. Either you can do the job or you can't . Its pretty much that simple . A service co. generally can't afford to carry hacks for several reasons, not the least of which is it's customer base.

Commercial customers don't mind paying top dollar for good service and quality work.
So the argument that the unions are are for slackers just dosent wash. You HAVE to produce or you find yourself out of a job .

Union shops in my area bill @ anywhere from $85-$125hr, for that kind of $$$$$ you better be competant!!

[maxster]

your right on the rates for service same in my area,and the real proof is a customer calling on a job not under contract.a top guy can walk in on overtime and solve the problem or with a parts follow-up the next day.my union is voting on $5.00 for the next three years starting in july with .75 cents.the jounrnymen's rate will go up to 30.00+ nice jump for a forth year guy,but he better be able to handle the responsibility that comes with the $$$$

[flemsteele]

We got $12hr over 4yrs, almost $40 hr in the envelope. Not too shabby!!!

[maxster]

do you cover large tonnage in the city with that rate,and what is the scale now for journeymen up there?

[osiyo]

Originally posted by Dowadudda

Keep adding things here you guys. This is so important to our trade and to our members here and in the UA. Keep it above the belt as well. But keep talking. I invite anyone to add to this. Tell me and the rest of us where you benefited. Many young guys are reading this, many in the middle guys are reading this. It's incredibly important to keep this conversation going..

Just a couple comments. I'm not UA. In fact, I'm not even a mechanic or fitter. Currently, technically, I'm an electrician as far as work classification goes around here. Actually, a low voltage (controls/automation) electrician. To make it worse, I'm in that hazy ground. Both union ... and management. A union guy holding down a project manager/engineering job.

Anyway, been following this thread. Some truth is spoken by both sides, IMHO.

I have in fact seen some of those fat, lazy, no-account union types. Here and there over the years. I'm 55. And have lived/worked in a number of cities and states.

Seems to depend a lot on state ... and specifically WHICH local. They tend to not be all the same. Some are good, some are just okay, some pretty much suck and fit all the bad things said.

Having said that. In recent years, in Minnesota at least, I don't see any trade unions which have such bad stereotypes. TRADE unions. Not speaking about UAW, government employee unions, etc. And I'm pretty familiar with most of the common trade unions. Electricians, fitters, plumbers, etc.

Not to say there aren't bad, or questionable members of the trade unions. Wanna find some? Just go to the hall and check the hiring bench. Plenty sitting there. There are good ones sitting there, too. But they won't be sitting there long. The bad ones, OTOH, have a long wait. Will occassionally disappear from the bench due to a short term hire. But they'll be back on the bench soon.

I deal mostly with the above 3 trades I listed. And locally, in all 3 cases (electricians, fitters, plumbers)the unions and their members push really hard the concept of an honest, HARD days work for your money. Your best possible work on every job. Continuing education. Working smarter. And, in short, giving your employer your very best effort.

Personlly, to me, it only makes sense. Employer has to make money and get new business ... so he can pay me and those like me. Not to mention, fact is, I take pride in my work and in doing it a little better than the last time or the next guy. And I happen to like being able to look customer in the eye and know I earned his money and that he or she got good value for it.

And I have no tolerance for hacks, incompetents, or lairs and cheaters. Not folks I want to work with or an enviornment I care to live in.

In any event. As concerns the comments made about fat, lazy, union workers. <Shrug> Maybe elsewhere. But I don't work with or around such. Sent a kid back to the bench the other day (member of my own union). For a while I tried talking to him, but it did no good. He just couldn't seem to be to work on time, tended to slack off if not watched every moment ... and neither I nor the project foreman had time to watch him every moment ... nor the inclination. New hire, off the bench. I'd gotten two. Kept the other guy. A go getter. On time, works like a fiend, asks lots of questions and wants to learn more. Kept him. Counseled other kid on his problems, warned him he needed to change, and sent him away.

No different with the pipefitters I work with. Senior journeyman who works for me, a while back let me know that another journeyman, new to our company, wasn't working out. Guy was slow, too many and too long on the breaks, and he was taking shortcuts in methods that increased chances that we'd have a warrantied failure in the future. Plus, his workmanship in general simply looked sloppy and unprofessional.

This as not backstabbing. Guy saying this is the senior fitter, on my team. Needs and wants help. Utterly trustable. But he doesn't want sloppy and inadequate work associated with any job he's on and responsible for. And he sure didn't like the fact others noticed this fellow not only did sloppy work, but seemed to be slacking off a lot, joking and smoking, etc ... when he should be working. Especially not good when customer's rep is walking around looking. He sees something like that, he isn't gonna give my senior journeyman much respect and trust. Wasn't easy for my fitter. He looked uncomfortable, didn't want to cut the other guy. Guy did need work. But my fitter sure didn't want him on his jobs. I got his point which he kinda worked around without saying outright. And I told him I'd take care of it. My union has scale, but at top of the chain we negotiate for extra, over scale. I get over scale. One of the reasons is that it's my job to play the bad guy. Which I did. I sent guy back to the bench.

I hate that. But more than I hate firing someone,I hate having someone on the team who won't pull his own weight and do a good job. I can not and will not tolerate someone who makes the rest of us look bad. We're professional, and proud of it.

As to the rest of the argument. I know non-union types who're very, very good. And non-union shops who're very, very good. And I know union shops which aren't so good.

Problem is, in my observation and experience, on average ... not in all cases but on average ... in my observation the union shops tend to be better in their competency, professionalism, and knowledge.

As to pay and benefits. I know a bunch of non-union types. Most, not all, tell me they make less. Bennies for the most part are about the same. Except as concerns retirement and continuing education. Which they tell me pretty much sucks in comparison.

Know a couple non-union types who make a lot more than union scale. But both these guys are men at the top of their game. Union or non-union, they will always get more pay. And are worth every penny. Yah know the type. Damned sharp. However, they are exceptions as versus the rule.

Maybe locals elsewhere aren't so good. Seen some in the past. Not an expert on such things. But these days, in Minnesota, the trade unions in my observation are doing a hard press to work cooperatively with employers and provide the best tradesmen they can. And good value for their money.

<Shrug> Maybe it's different elsewhere. Wouldn't know. Do know, that at least on the jobs I work, around here, the union fitters, plumbers, and electricians don't put up with slackers and sloppy or incompetent workers. As a project manager, I'll hear about such. The good guys drop me hints. As they don't want the fellow's lacks to reflect upon their work. So, and it's my job, I either counsel the guy to fix his problems. Or, if that fails, I find a way to send him away.

[peo353]

A fair days work for a fair days pay. That is the message I received growing up in a union home and the same message I heard as I served my 5 year UA steamfitters apprenticeship. In this area if you don't perform you don't work...Union or not if you don't perform the market place will run you out of the business. I will say this for being union, together we, as union members constitute a force that is much more powerful than an individual. With this strength we have been able to negoiate safer working conditions, premium wages, health insurance and a pension that will see us through our retirement. And our work ethic, training and ability does the talking for us, we don't have to nell down or back up to get our pay check. The union also promotes the training of the members and provides teachers and books and a facility to meet for learning. I read where someone said something about dues and the cost of membership, this training is where a large amount of the money goes, money I feel is well spent. Unions are not perfect and never will be but when you are a member of a good union such as the UA it is great to know you have over a quarter of a million brothers and sisters with you.

[flemsteele]

Maxster,


The rate up here is $38.36hr in the envelope!!

[maxster]

638B is out on strike down here since the new contract came out 7/1/04 national agreements can't go out(TRANE,YORK,McQUAY,CARRIER some other larger service groups also on the national)and or take others work who are out.how does your overtime work after a days work,and on the weekends.we have A teams splitting up doing B work for your rate in some of the OEMs offices.

[flemsteele]

Maxster,

There is no "B" rate up here ! There NEVER will be!! The national tried to jam that down our throat about 5yrs ago, that weasel Tom House tried to get us to go along with that MSCA agreement , we almost walked away from the UA over it .

The is only one rate for fitters and refrigeration people, although reefers should get more$$ and often times do we try and stick together . We are not one of the UA favorite locals. By that I mean we are pretty independent , we have our own pension, health care annuity etc. That MSCA agreement is a real shaft job for journeymen techs. JMHO

[maxster]

thats tight then,back in late 97' the B business agents were voted out and we had the "A" BA cover us since.the B guys down here are always cutting deals with their bosses away from the union and then ***** the union has no power..i wish we were as tight as the A fitters are but the hvac owners would loose control from raises,to how OT is written by techs.

[no8no3]

I've bit my lip long enough on this thread, not wanting to really say much, but i am as disappointed in the union in the past few years as i have ever been. We have had one raise on our check in the last 6 years, a total of .76 cents. The rest of the $5.00 or so going to Health and welfare. Most recently $1.30 that was supposed to go to the check, also went to H&W.

We did get our deductible reduced from 1000 down to 500, as if that matters much. Most of our pipefitters are sitting the bench, without benie's, due to the help of George Bush. To suggest that these guy's are lazy or slacker's defies imagination, and those that would tout them as being so should spend some time there, and deny their own families the security of a weekly paycheck.

It was suggested that a temporary assesment be made to help these guy's with their non-working dues, I favored this but it was voted down. The local could make a better effort to put these guy's to work by pressuring the out of town contractor's to use our guy's and quit giving out permits like water.

There has been a change of administration at the local, and things are getting better in some area's, but the main issue's are still present at every meeting, like the smell of a dead polecat. The mention of a phone call to the higher level, gives the BA's a rash. They are way to receptive to the contractors needs and not of the rank and file. The only issue they ever want to discuss is organizing the non-union shops. I tend to favor organizing our own membership first. JMHO.

[Ammonianite]

Where in the world can you make money like that with no overtime? Certainly not here in Southwest Ohio. Good grief! I've been putting in 50-60 hrs. a week since May
and this isn't an especially hot summer. No OT, sounds like nirvana to me . . .

[roc service]

Maxster, the problems with MTB 638 have always been that we've had poor representation on the Business Agent front since before I can remember. The mechanics in NY are also their own worst enemies. They never go to scheduled meetings and have no idea what it's all about or what's going on. I think the recent contract was turned down by 168 members and those few members had the ability to call a work stoppage. There are thousands of MTB 638 members and where were they when the votes were counted. It will never change.

The National Association allows the owners to sign an interim agreement thus allowing their employees to work strike or no strike. I was in Manhattan on Thursday and Friday and I saw trucks from every big shop still out there working. If we could get autonomy from the A local things possibly would change but being a realist I know that will never happen. I'm a self employed member now and unfortunately have no say in all this but I was a shop steward fo 20 years and it was very frustrating to say the least. Keep the faith.

[dave82323]

companys like brazil or diamond that pay 50 an hour have there catches. they only pay you ticket time, which means no travel time and you may have to work longer than 1 hour to get 1 hour of ticket time. if you have to drive to a supply house to get a part this is not ticket time. have you ever seen the prices that these commission companys charge I would rather make less and not go to hell. i know many people who worked for brazil and they say the best thing to do is quit companys like this... i tried it and didnt like it.. it is a feast or famon deal...good luck

[yvairguy]

dave82323

If it is an item that you should have on the truck and it's not because the warehouse man didn't have what you needed in the warehouse to stock the truck they will usually bring it out to you. If it is something that would be impractical to stock on the truck, or what not, there is usually always a task number you can use to add the time needed even for travel time.

Yes they pay per billable hour, they use a national average to arrive at the time needed to complete the task. If the task is always being completed light on hours they will adjust it and they will also adjust the time if the task is always being beat. If your competent and quick you will make more than someone that has little experience, so it's a self adjusting scale. The guy with 10 years in the trade will almost always make more than the guy with only 2 years of experience. So the new guy may be averaging 30 bucks an hour and the old guy may be making 60 or 70 per hour. The guy that completes his job first is back in the rotation for a new call, so again experience is rewarded.

I don't remember if I posted this or not here but I actually started in the trades working union, I've worked piece work, billable hours, hourly, salary, commission, and combinations of them all together at one time or another. I've also paid out on them all with my own companies with the exception of union scale in a union shop. I think I did post, I will be looking into the union for a new shop out of state probably after the first of the year.

As an employee of all the ways I've worked, I've liked billable hours the best, but I was at the top of my game and I always beat my times.

As in employer I've been beat up pretty good paying hourly, the clock is ticking your guy isn't answering the radio and then you find out later he was getting a nooner from his girlfriend on your time and going home to the wife after work. So billable hours also helps to protect the employer.

[carriertech1]

For your money the one of the best places to live for wages versus cost of living is Omaha. Pipefitter scale is $28
sheet metal service tech $26.50. Nice city, bad weather

[hatchy]

$70 per hour? Seeing as how most companies bill out at about $65-$75 per hour in So Cal to the customers, that means that with expenses you've got to bill out at at least $110 per hour to see a profit. You know Mike Diamond and George Brazil have to pay a HUGE amount of money to advertise. TV and full page color ad in all phone books, so tack on another $20 per hour. You've got to be doing something crooked to be billing out at about twice the rate of everyone else.

One of my buddies who works at a parts house found a folder left by one of THOSE guys and looked inside to find out who it belonged to. After seeing the invoices inside he made a few copies and showed them to me. On an invoice for a compressor changeout, the only part listed in his confidential parts used section was one 10-370 capacitor. That job cost the customer $350. It's people like that who give the rest of us honest people in the industry a bad name.

[747ken]

Last week mike diamond ran an ad in the Los Angeles Times,
advertising $55+ per hr for techs. Couldn't figure how they could do that, until I read these posts.

[enzorock]

Sure maybe there are people out there who think they would rather work non-union. Maybe they actually believe they make more money as well. But these people are foolish and completely wrong. First of all lets thank the unions for bringing you things like your WEEKEND, a lunch break, overtime, pensions, benefits higher wage scales whether you are in a union or not. Just a few examples there. If you think you make more than a union worker you are dead wrong. I was at 100 k in JUNE and i Have the pay stubs to prove it. Thats just my envelope, without benefits. I also have a pension as well as a 401k plan(two pensions people). I have full medical coverage $10 co-pay and $35 dollar co-pay for emergency room. In addittion to vision and dental coverage. For me and my entire family until my kids are in there twenties. As far as me and my wife we cover our retirees for the rest of there lives. I have a benefit fund that matches my salary when i am unemployed as well as pays my unpaid mortgage payments. I get two vacation checks a year tax free usually between 5k and 10k each depending on hours worked. Any overtime I work is double not just in the envelope but in the benefits as well. So i guess you can say I actually make around 250k a year when you ad it all up. If the contractor wasnt making money off of my back he wouldn't be paying me that salary, understand? Oh by the way we have no hiring hall so you get hired on your name in my local in NY. So i guess there goes your theory about us doing nothing. If i did nothing I wouldn,t be working. By the way I just graduated the apprenticeship program 2 yrs ago. So keep thinking you make more than me doing non-union work. the only one getting rich is your boss off of your back. Do the math you dont have to be a genius to figure it out. By the way i went to college for 4 yrs and i make more money doing construction than the jobs that were out there for college grads. If you would rather be taken advantage of feel free by all means.

[rojacman]

My soon to be husband does commercial Hvac in the metro-Denver area. He is a licienced journeyman for the past 3 yrs, and completed his 5 yr apprenticeship previous to that, for a total of 8yrs experience. What is the typical hourly pay range he should be recieving? thanksunion or non union????????........Jack

[Coolmaniac]

Look at the post date, they're probably divorced by now.

[ON-CALL]

HEY ENZOROCK beinging raised in a ITALIAN in brooklyn with uncles in local#3 and the rest of the family with a differant local # UNIONS HAVE OUT GROWN THEIR USEFULLNESS . And by the way I bet your B.A make twice as much as you do for doing less work than you and dosn't have to be productive like you so make sure you show up monday for work your B.A needs his job.

[daytonafan]

Sure maybe there are people out there who think they would rather work non-union. Maybe they actually believe they make more money as well. But these people are foolish and completely wrong. First of all lets thank the unions for bringing you things like your WEEKEND, a lunch break, overtime, pensions, benefits higher wage scales whether you are in a union or not. Just a few examples there. If you think you make more than a union worker you are dead wrong. I was at 100 k in JUNE and i Have the pay stubs to prove it. Thats just my envelope, without benefits. I also have a pension as well as a 401k plan(two pensions people). I have full medical coverage $10 co-pay and $35 dollar co-pay for emergency room. In addittion to vision and dental coverage. For me and my entire family until my kids are in there twenties. As far as me and my wife we cover our retirees for the rest of there lives. I have a benefit fund that matches my salary when i am unemployed as well as pays my unpaid mortgage payments. I get two vacation checks a year tax free usually between 5k and 10k each depending on hours worked. Any overtime I work is double not just in the envelope but in the benefits as well. So i guess you can say I actually make around 250k a year when you ad it all up. If the contractor wasnt making money off of my back he wouldn't be paying me that salary, understand? Oh by the way we have no hiring hall so you get hired on your name in my local in NY. So i guess there goes your theory about us doing nothing. If i did nothing I wouldn,t be working. By the way I just graduated the apprenticeship program 2 yrs ago. So keep thinking you make more than me doing non-union work. the only one getting rich is your boss off of your back. Do the math you dont have to be a genius to figure it out. By the way i went to college for 4 yrs and i make more money doing construction than the jobs that were out there for college grads. If you would rather be taken advantage of feel free by all means.

That is one hell of a package. If the average worker does 2080 hours per year... and you were at 100k in June... that puts you at about $96.00 per hour. Unless, of course, you work a crapload of OT. Union J-men start at $29.76 per hour here in the Plumbers/S-Fitters local. Sheetmetal local is a little less. Good service techs usually pull in about $35.00-$50.00 with chiller guys being in high demand. The guys who want to work and are at the top of their game make the good money. I'm not sure what the Union correlation is to the holidays and vacation because our local does not offer either. It is up to the employer and employee to hash that out. Again, the guys in demand can usually name what they want and get it. I don't know what your cost of living is but $200,000 per year on the check is fantastic. You have to be one of the best in order to get that kind of cash. Something tells me you could succeed even if you didn't have your union. Union training is second to none and the bennies are great. You sound like you have it made in the shade. I don't think it works that way for everyone in the union. My brother is a union carpenter, my uncle is a union electrician, my brother in law is a union fitter and I out earn all of them. I work an average of 50 hrs per week. I get 3 weeks paid vacation and decent insurance.(Nothing like yours) Thank God my wife carries great insurance for her and the kids. I do have a 401k but its not great. My wife and I invest ourselves and I think we are going to be OK. Sounds like you have a wonderful job but don't think its like that for everyone who is union.

As for your boss making money off your backs, do you think your BA is starving? Do you think whoever owns the company you work for is hurting? Trust me, when you are getting contracts to build hospitals, high rise office buildings, football stadiums etc....its a whole different ball of wax from the dude slappin furnaces in houses. It takes millions of dollars to even be considered for jobs like that. Thats how they can afford to pay you 200,000 per year. Do you think they could afford to pay you that doing residential work? Your boss is getting stinkin filthy rich off your labor and you are getting a bone. It just happens to be alot larger that the average Joe.
How can unions afford to throw billions of dollars at Democrats every year? Because they are LOADED!

[sumdumguy]

My soon to be husband does commercial Hvac in the metro-Denver area. He is a licienced journeyman for the past 3 yrs, and completed his 5 yr apprenticeship previous to that, for a total of 8yrs experience. What is the typical hourly pay range he should be recieving? thanks

go to arca web site and check... you should have a link to it on his locals site.

[Coolmaniac]

2004

Last week mike diamond ran an ad in the Los Angeles Times,
advertising $55+ per hr for techs. Couldn't figure how they could do that, until I read these posts.

Thought I'd offer a little info and an update since 2004' on these bandits. Maybe I shouldn't say that since this is a capitalist economy, and if you can talk someone into paying $700. to replace a 90 in their water line, or walk up to a unit, kick it, say you need a new one, and still sleep at night, thats the way it is. Or so I was told.

Diamond and brazil are basically the same company, or might as well be. Diamond bought into or bought accounts from brazil. Use the same style trucks, and likely the same style tricks. I cannot say for certain, but my understanding of the operation goes like this:

All commission pay, you buy the stock on the truck from the co., you sell it for whatever you can get away with and pocket the difference. Don't know how or if their hourly works. Might be a keep whatever you can get above $xxx. flat fee or quote. And that they prefer replacement to repair, regardless of the problem.

They had been operating in LA since its beginning, and only started working Orange county more around 1995. Started getting bigger for a short time, then started shrinking possibly due to OC residents higher financial savvy. Took a major hit when george B croaked a while back and his two sons started fighting over his assets, leaving the company to run itself. (Or fighting over the company and getting nothing done) Either way, their trucks are rarely seen by me anymore, when it used to be once or twice a day. With the occasional Diamond mobile spotted about half as often as before, which wasn't that much to begin with.

However Diamonds latest radio spot might convince folks they're not gonna get ripped off cause, “Our techs will never come to your home smelling bad” or something like that. Must not know if somebody says you stink, they don't necessarily mean BO. Don't know why cause I never had a complaint made about me, due to working up a dirty sweat on a customers behalf.:eek:

[enzorock]

Hi, ON_CALL actually i make more than my buissness agents and with the current boom in nyc alot of steamfitters make more than our b.a's. As far as local 3, you are right they went from first to worst in a hurry. The primal reason that a union like them can do an about face is good old american greed. They went away from their core. First off their union gave out(sold) too many books. They currently have 16,000 members thats is why they must go on furlo every year. Most leckys are out of work half the year. The local now is the complete opposite of what one of organized labor's greatest leaders envisioned when he was president of local 3 Harry Van Arsdale. Mr. Van Arsdale lived his life on the ideal of unionism. He actually cut his own pension in half after he retired. He didn't think he deserved to make as much money ritered as a working man did, he actually died broke. Local 3 now thinks like a buissness instead of a union. They look to make profits on real estate and other ventures. They no longer think like a union. For the other poster we work 35 hrs a week in my local from 7am to 2 pm. Anything outside of those hrs is double. Saturday and sudays are a double and anything from 2pm to 7 am is double. If i have a nightshift instead of a day shift and i start at 2pm every single hour i work is double thats why we make so much money. My local is one of the most powerful and politically active in the entire country. They have not become useless as on-call seems to believe. I also work residential and recieve the same salary. You have to remember a 1 bedroom condo is 1 million dollars in the city so the money is there. As far as the contractor making money off of my back........ of course he is thats what i want. I want to be a profitable employee thats what a good union man wants. The more money I make for him the more money I can ask of him. We want the owners to make a profit, they wouldnt be in buissness if they didnt. Just as a group, as a union you can demand a larger cut of the pie.

[artman934]

Hi, ON_CALL actually i make more than my buissness agents and with the current boom in nyc alot of steamfitters make more than our b.a's. As far as local 3, you are right they went from first to worst in a hurry. The primal reason that a union like them can do an about face is good old american greed. They went away from their core. First off their union gave out(sold) too many books. They currently have 16,000 members thats is why they must go on furlo every year. Most leckys are out of work half the year. The local now is the complete opposite of what one of organized labor's greatest leaders envisioned when he was president of local 3 Harry Van Arsdale. Mr. Van Arsdale lived his life on the ideal of unionism. He actually cut his own pension in half after he retired. He didn't think he deserved to make as much money ritered as a working man did, he actually died broke. Local 3 now thinks like a buissness instead of a union. They look to make profits on real estate and other ventures. They no longer think like a union. For the other poster we work 35 hrs a week in my local from 7am to 2 pm. Anything outside of those hrs is double. Saturday and sudays are a double and anything from 2pm to 7 am is double. If i have a nightshift instead of a day shift and i start at 2pm every single hour i work is double thats why we make so much money. My local is one of the most powerful and politically active in the entire country. They have not become useless as on-call seems to believe. I also work residential and recieve the same salary. You have to remember a 1 bedroom condo is 1 million dollars in the city so the money is there. As far as the contractor making money off of my back........ of course he is thats what i want. I want to be a profitable employee thats what a good union man wants. The more money I make for him the more money I can ask of him. We want the owners to make a profit, they wouldnt be in buissness if they didnt. Just as a group, as a union you can demand a larger cut of the pie.

Good for you enzo. try getting away with O/T for a nightshift in the b side, or anything else in our contract for that matter..... it really is sad that we have such a large sector of local 638, but the b guys cant come together to save their lives, whether its the meetings, night classes, voting, whatever.....

[Lash]

Look at the post date, they're probably divorced by now.

lol :D

[The Doctor]

I live in the middle of the country, let's call it a "right to work" state. I got toward the top of the light commercial game in a company that is publicly traded. I'd have to put my wife to work to keep working there, and they told me from day one that this region's standard of living was less than other places. I told him that he was kidding himself after (state and local)taxes.

They tried to fill the room up with BS when confronted with the facts (paystub) of another friend of mine who joined the local. One phone call after that meeting and my mind was made up.

Training for apprentices, training for journeymen, what more needs to be said?

Oh yeah, a 14,000 a year raise just in hourly...

PLUS a $500 a month raise because they pay for ALL health

Are you doing the math? That's a $20,000 raise annually. And I get trained by professionals, not salesmen.
OT after 8 , DT on Sundays. I told those scabs at my old job from day one that in commercial work they ought to be paying me DT on Sundays--that they ought to charge DT on Sundays. That and 75cents got me a copy of the USA Today.:rolleyes:

Where was I...???

The union shops buy EVERY tool that they expect me to use, and I'm talking reasonably good stuff. Not Harbor Freight/Chinese pride or whatever. I own nearly every tool in HVAC already, so I know the cost. Now all those tools are cluttering up my office, but you can bet I'll take care of their tools because I know the cost. But I digress. And no more begging the employer to repair my tools when they break.

The old open shops can house all the middle management that they want, and you "principled" folks can fatten the open shops' wallets and pay their greens fees. I have more than a few family folks whose jobs were protected by unions when RRs abolished their positions. So I look forward to paying into the protection of jobs, while getting trained by professionals to be the best .

HAVE A NICE WEEKEND. :p

[Pneuma]

Young guys like to debate this union vs non in terms of how much money you make weekly. But ask a non union guy who is 55/60 years old and he will tell you something about how if he could get health care he would not be working for as long and how he wishes he would have gotten into the union because of healthcare and the costs of medicine. Retirement health care is probably the best bene union has over non union, but seldom ever brought up in the debate.

[JRINJAX]

Not to take one side or another but; Why is the US workforce down to only 17% unionized and 11% of that is Government unions?

Is anyone happy with the performance of our Unionized Government workers?

Yes I DO agree that the benefits that we all enjoy today were won by the Unions against the "Robber Barons". I am very thankful for them.

No I don't agree I need to pay an unskilled Unionized worker $75K with a thirty-years-and-your-out retirement to mount the tires on my new car [being built].

I also have seen "surplus" Unionized workers at a Local GM parts distribution center being warehoused at full pay playing cards/watching TV each day.

I also see plenty of extremely hardworking Friends at the Construction Locals here paying out their wages to corrupt Autoworkers and Government unions who hardly work at all. Instead of being part of the Brotherhood they are more like Leeches to their Union Brothers.

Just my observations....

[n-e-w Jerz!]

Look at the post date, they're probably divorced by now.
yeah, the ladies always want to keep tabs on the mulla!:(

[Mrfixit39]

y cant u ask ur husband about his earnings?

[zw17]

Local 189 Columbus Ohio...

$30/hr in your pocket.

[mdp]

Young guys like to debate this union vs non in terms of how much money you make weekly. But ask a non union guy who is 55/60 years old and he will tell you something about how if he could get health care he would not be working for as long and how he wishes he would have gotten into the union because of healthcare and the costs of medicine. Retirement health care is probably the best bene union has over non union, but seldom ever brought up in the debate.

Glad to from hear a voice of reason. The weekly paycheck is not the whole standard except for perhaps the younger members. Union or non the weekly paychecks can and frequently do match or exceed each other regardless of the affiliation. As a non union tradesman with 35 years in the trade my weekly check is well over my union counterparts (in this market) but the union does have the benefit of the long term health care, yes that is a very large issue to take into account. Not that I'm saying I'm screwed in my retirement, it just means that I have to plan for my healthcare in retirement after all sooner or later the kids are going to have to drag my sorry old butt out of the basement and to a doctor, can't have them paying for that too.
For the record, UA in the Washington D.C. area has one of THE BEST training programs anywhere! Coming from that region of the country originally I do wish that the UA had a presence in the area that I came from, I would have gone union had they been there.

[Pneuma]

Thanks mdp. You know it was an one old guy with leathery face and you could tell was just tired, talking about his wife and her medical needs and how if not for that he would not be working and how much he liked the non union shop he worked for for so many years but now he sees why he should have gone union. I really felt for the guy. I've heard it more than that once but I'll never forget that dude.

I agree our training facility is pretty drn good, I'm proud to have graduated from there and they've made it a lot better since then!

[JRINJAX]

I hope that your retirement/healthcare is there when you need it. Our IBEW local here had the National leadership invest their pension funds in a now-defunct LV casino.

They were very bitter and felt powerless in what had happened.

I personally like managing my own retirement/healthcare instead of handing it off to someone who might not have my interest "at heart".

[Pneuma]

I hope that your retirement/healthcare is there when you need it. Our IBEW local here had the National leadership invest their pension funds in a now-defunct LV casino.

They were very bitter and felt powerless in what had happened.

I personally like managing my own retirement/healthcare instead of handing it off to someone who might not have my interest "at heart".

I hear you in that regard, fraud can and will happen whenever you have people involved. But in reality, do mutual fund companies and health care companies really have your interest at heart? I'd say there is a lot more risk that a health care company is going to try and screw a self insured geezer as soon as he starts costing too much as there is for some schmcuk to screw the union health care fund. It's all somewhat a crap shoot!

Anyway I was really just pointing out that many people don't bring that up in the union/nonunion debate and I think it's a key difference. Health care for when you retire is a key thing to be planing for, whatever you do for a living.

[Andy Ochuk]

My soon to be husband does commercial Hvac in the metro-Denver area. He is a licienced journeyman for the past 3 yrs, and completed his 5 yr apprenticeship previous to that, for a total of 8yrs experience. What is the typical hourly pay range he should be recieving? thanks

the info should be online somewhere...

i found this for Colorado but its for 2004... so adjust accordingly...

http://salarysearcher.com/Colorado/Colorado_47-2152_Nov04.html