Contamination of oil on a paralell rack ...

[R12rules]

I get the honor .. no ... the Priveledge of replacing a fifteen horse in the morning.

I was there early today preping it for my co-worker to show with the new unit.

I noticed the oil sensor screen was all plugged up with metal grit.
The compressor had broken the crank or something like that ... I was told.
No compression and very little amperage draw ... was the diag I was told yesterday.

Anyway, since this unit is filthy inside, and since it shares the oil system with three other units, I thought I might need to do something to clean the oil system up.

Should I ??? And how?

[condenseddave]

Change the oil in the rack.

Change all the filters/cores.

Clean the oil separator screen and float.

BTW. Your company certainly seems to change out a LOT of compressors!:confused::eek: What gives?

[Dowadudda]

I was thinking the same thing.

[R12rules]

We just took over this acount last November.

This particular unit went down due to a flooding "demand cooling valve".

The stores in general are held captive, so to speak by corperate management's desire to spend a dollar to save a dime.

The engine room I am in now, looks like something on "the Arizona".
I have never seen so much rust and grey paint.



This stuff has tremendous potential. But corp is in the midst of a revamp again, so they are not spending right now.
Pitty.



Dave, thanks for the info. That is what I thought.
I guess I'm gonna be there awhile......

[Dowadudda]

You will learn to hate that corporate game. I hear you loud and clear.

Oil management and oil issues I have somewhat myself always have not been very good at with racks, but about 3 years ago or so I had such a run on problematic oil issues that I seemed to aquire the neccesary knowledge.

In my experience. Regulators if they seem to overfeed, change em, don't try to clean em. I think Dave will disagree with me but. Ther separator float and screen. A good thing to clean when into a system. At least drop the float and inspect. Plus this way you'll be able to charge the separator with oil since your changing the oil anyway.

Every core, every filter on that rack, change.

All pumps with new oil.

And then let that prick run for about a week and come back and do her again.

I have witnessed guys having to do three or four oil changes to get all the crap out of it. It's not commen but I have seen it.

[Dowadudda]

I forgot to mention the oil pump screen on each pump. when you got the oil out, pull that screen too.

[Freezeking2000]

I prefer to never except in the most extreme low temp R-22 applications change compressor oil. You can never get it all out of the rack or piping. I add a changeable core sporlan oil line filter and change it 2 or 3 times in a year and the oil gets very clean. I clean seperator floats and almost never play with the screens in the seperator unless i have an extreme problem getting oil back into the resevior.

[R12rules]

I got the unit changed out and runing.

Damn!!!

Everybody with the company was outa town. So I hired a mechaninc fried of mine to assist in the heavy work.

Always better with two guys anyways....


It went fairly smooth. This new chain hoist, the expensive one, it is sure a nice thing to have. It made the job so much smoother .... didnt even need a come a long.

Did bring an oak plank into the motor room though. It helped.

Jus slid that puppy out on the plank then down onto the floor.

This was my first fifteen horse, alone. It caused me to think everything thru.

Like when I was hooking up the can, the jumpers werent in place on the new compressor. I think the last two I did had the jumpers already in place.
So that part was a no brainer.

Perhaps it was taken care of by the coworker I had that day.
Anyway ... today ... there was NO coworker to fasten the jumpers in place. So I had to think; "where do they go?"
So I began putting them in place for 230v.
Then ...as a second thought, I measured the voltage for the unit and found the rack was on 480V!!! OOOOPS!!!

Good thing I checked!
So. ... I changed the brass jumpers and got it together.


Danged if the sucker didnt come with the right gasket for the two piece discharge header pipe.
And I looked for the gasket everywhere. Nothing on the truck either.
So we made one for temporary. Used some thin cardboard, soaked in oil.
Not too shabby, for something done in a pinch.

It only leaks just a tiny bit..... will replace it soon :D

I was lookin over the rack for all the driers and cores I need to replace tomorrow.

Four suction, two liquid, one 303.

Wish I had an air rachet! That's an awful lota bolts to do for all them drier cores!


I dont know a thing about those oil separators, other than in theory.
Never had to fiddle with them in the past.


The oil system uses a C303 flare drier. Should I just replace that rig with a Sporlan core set up? It's better in the long run for cleanups, right?




When it was time to do that deman coling set up, I went out and bought the whole new kit & caboodle.
Man what a high price ...

Anyway, when I got the new stuff mounted, I happened to notice there wasnt a power cord to the old controller.

hmmm....

Then I noticed it laying on the floor, underneath the rack.

hmmm.... (not a good sign....not good at all)

So I inspected the wiring inside the rack control panel... OMG!!!

Let's NOT talk about what kind of moron worked on this system last.....

The solenoid to the demand cooling was wired hot!

To make matters only worse, when I fired this sucker up.... I was checkin all the stuff...you know... the usual stuff.... and so I pushed in the reset button on the OIL PRESSURE SAFETY SWITCH ..... and guess what DIDNT happen???

That's Right!!! NOTHING HAPPENED!!!

AUGH!!!

How do these guys ever last in this industry???


So because some idiot fouled up the oil pressure safety, the unit had absolutely NO protection against liquid flooding of the bearings! Then when same jerk or another jerk ... came along and wired the demand cooling hot .....all the time .... the bearings washed away and the crank broke!
And the unit jus kept on hummin along!!!


I guess I'm gonna be there awhile tomorrow.

Boy you shoulda seen that Astro van sink down when the forklift loaded that fifteen horse copeland into the side door this morning....
It was a wonder the front wheels even stayed on the ground! :D


Reverse went out this morning.... getting a new van on Monday.
I'm on call this weekend.


Am I organised yet? ......... what do you think?


(not a chance .....) :p

[condenseddave]

But what you're looking for is either a Sporlan "OF-303" (Throwaway oil filter.) or, preferably, the "ROF-413". Replaceable core oil filter.

[mccool]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R12rules
[B]I got the unit changed out and runing.

Damn!!!



It went fairly smooth. LOL :)

Then ...as a second thought, I measured the voltage for the unit and found the rack was on 480V!!! OOOOPS!!!
And I looked for the gasket everywhere. Nothing on the truck either.
So we made one for temporary. Used some thin cardboard, soaked in oil.
Not too shabby, for something done in a pinch.
It only leaks just a tiny bit..... will replace it soon :D
Let's NOT talk about what kind of moron worked on this system last.....
The solenoid to the demand cooling was wired hot!
To make matters only worse, when I fired this sucker up.... I was checkin all the stuff...you know... the usual stuff.... and so I pushed in the reset button on the OIL PRESSURE SAFETY SWITCH ..... and guess what DIDNT happen???That's Right!!! NOTHING HAPPENED!!!
AUGH!!!
How do these guys ever last in this industry???
So because some idiot fouled up the oil pressure safety, the unit had absolutely NO protection against liquid flooding of the bearings! Then when same jerk or another jerk ... came along and wired the demand cooling hot .....all the time .... the bearings washed away and the crank broke!
And the unit jus kept on hummin along!!!
I guess I'm gonna be there awhile tomorrow.
Am I organised yet? ......... what do you think?

Sounds like a compressor change nightmare, how many man hours were added to this atrocity due to the previous screwups. Hope it was'nt quoted or someone's got a smooth explanation for the customer to get some extras. At least ya saw it through and won the battle. You're sure gonna learn fast working for this outfit!! Best of Luck!

[smbore]

on 460 volts the wires for the three legs are colored brown, orange & yellow.

[frozensolid]

Use only quality oil filters, the cheap ones tend to disintegrate. Cleaning up after that mess, is a real joy.

[m&s hvac]

Sounds like you have found a good job that is challenging. PTL.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by m&s hvac
Sounds like you have found a good job that is challenging. PTL.

Challenging.... yep!

I went back this morning to do this. On the way there I had to get parts for that. Then once I arrived at the store, I was told to get ready for another call that just came in.
As I'm working I get another call saying I should forget EVERYTHING and go run this call for an ice cream line up which is totally down!!!

So I drop everything and run off and find a whole rack is down. The 480 breaker to the rack had tripped!

I get it back online safely and learned a valuable lesson. I didnt have to front seat the suction service valves on each of the four units! I could have simply closed all the ball valves on the suction header and then opened them one at a time once I restarted the units.

That would have been easier.

Found a really bad contact on unit four.

Why would someone put a 90 AMP contactor on a unit drawing 18 amps??????????

[Dowadudda]

Your really grooving on this aren't you? Hey, you made it to the big leagues, and I am one that is hat's off to you and, I think many of us can appreciate that enthusiasm you display in your posts as of late.

But I also recall you have asked for tips. I have one for you. And it is not meant to insinuetue anything from what you have said about your new job. I am saying this cause I remember being right where your at. I am sure a few guys in here can tottally understand.

You made it to the show, make sure you find time to also enjoy that feeling and track your building of confidence. Take a sit back and relax as well as drive this train forward.

Find a comfortable stride. You will be a better mechanic for it.

[Freezeking2000]

I usally just turn on one pump at a time and it works fine unless it was off for like 24 hours or something. Most likely the back pressure will dropp quickly. You can also just use toggle switches for solonoid valves mounted on the rack or turn off the solonoid controll breaker. I can remember having to ever close off ball valves to re-start a rack that had been down.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by Dowadudda
Your really grooving on this aren't you? Hey, you made it to the big leagues, and I am one that is hat's off to you and, I think many of us can appreciate that enthusiasm you display in your posts as of late.

Find a comfortable stride. You will be a better mechanic for it.

Thanks .... I find myself striving at times to keep up with what is going on.
I see this rack over here needs this ...so I wanna find the time .. or make the time to get in there and do what it needs.
Then there's that rack over there, they gotta leak and two systems low on gas..... then there's the line up with some tx valves that needs some adjustment .... and on and on.


But I cannot be everywhere at once!

By nature, I try to work to PREVENT breakdowns. But nobody else seems to care! They just want you to be there when it does crash and burn, which it certainly will!

And then these market directors, managers ... they never ever take a cases temperature!
Either a customer or a vendor is the one who informs management of their problem areas!
But by that time, they got milkshakes and warm seafood!

I find the politics and mentality of corperate supermarkets to be less than brilliant, to be sure.
They are their own worst enemy.

I will try to pace myself though.
Thanks for the advice.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by Freezeking2000
I usally just turn on one pump at a time and it works fine unless it was off for like 24 hours or something. Most likely the back pressure will dropp quickly. You can also just use toggle switches for solonoid valves mounted on the rack or turn off the solonoid controll breaker. I can remember having to ever close off ball valves to re-start a rack that had been down.


hmmm... didnt know this. I'll try it next time.

I am positive there WILL be a next time .... :D

[R12rules]

Originally posted by m&s hvac
Sounds like you have found a good job that is challenging. PTL.

Hello Mike & Karen,

yes ... it is challenging. It may not be ont he coast ... but it is where I am for the time being.

Susan keeps reminding me of where my focus should be.
You know what I mean.

I imagine your really hopping right about now.


I look at that photo every single day. Thanks again. We'll never forget that trip.

[refer dude 2479]

I agree with freezking about the oil change. I dont think I have ever changed all of the oil in a rack system. You are better served by changing all of the filter driers, suction filter cores, and oil line filters and following up with repeat filter changes untill the oil is clean and test ok for acid. Make sure you keep the oil seperator working properly, especially in the case like yours where the copmpressor failed mechanically. Another tip is to ALWAYS open up the dead compressor. It will share with you a world of information as to why it failed. A minimum is to remove the valve plates. If you have time pop off the front bearing head and peek in at the lower end. Almost all lower end failures are the result of oiling problems. most top end failures are the result of excessive refrigerant issues. Keep up the high enthusiasm you are doing good, but do not burn out. You can not save the world, only the call you are on.

[Freezeking2000]

As i got into the business i shared you same level of wanting to do the right thing, but you will find what you think is going to CRASH AND BURN most oftem never does.

ONLY YOU WILL CRASH AND BURN if you care too much. Just float in do the call and float out or you will work yourself into a big burn out too fast. You have to pace youtself for a 10 year burn out I only lasted 8, but i was 36 before i saw my first rack!

Towards the end of 8 years in markets i would walf by the rapping compressor or small oil leak and go ohhh well!

[condenseddave]

Ya big girl.:D

[refer dude 2479]

I had 24 years in before I burned out. And it wasn't me mind cap'n but me body. Back operation in 1991. that went fine doc said don't lift anything heavier than 15 pounds. yeh right!!!! Then the knees started going. Now I am in process HVAC and hating it (for the last 3+ years). The work is physically easier, but there is no challenge. Miss the good old daze

[Freezeking2000]

Well refer dude you will always be a refer man at heart. I went to doing smaller refrigeration, but still 90% commercial refrigeration but no racks or supermarket calls at 2:00 am...................much better

[refer dude 2479]

yep that is the real blessing in the hvac side. for the most part if it ain't fixed by 3:30 then it will wait til tomorrow. the only after hours calls we really get are from the Safeway stores where we do the a/c work. most of the big process a/c accounts have facility guys that get the after hours calls. we just get the repairs that they can't do, or the ones that they thought they could do and butchered up.

[Dowadudda]

I have been fortunate to have been kneee deep as a tech in commercial reefer, from small stuff to the very current screw racks. and flipside of that, I got into the larger RTU hvac side. I love both a lot. But there is one thing that stands out which I see being my favorite over the long haul. HVAC. Commercially. It's a much more even pace. It has as many things right with it as wrong with it, just like the grocery stores, but, you can make a good living, raise a family, join a bowling league, shoot darts, play pool, children sports, children everything. You can do all that alot easier in HVAC.

[refer dude 2479]

Sounds like our history is sorta the same Dowa. I got into the trade as a summer job while doing college. Started in small stores, restraunts etc...Then got my big chance at markets and industrial when I got hired at Hussmann San Jose. At the time they were still manufacturing industrial equipment and the Hussmann TD System for the markets. What an eye opener from where I had been working. Got good at the market stuff pretty fast cuz I loved it. Got to work on a fair amount if industrial stuff in the way of wineries, food packaging and frozen storeage. That was really cool, but then Hussmann lost all of their good engineers for that type of work. They all left and went into thier own ventures. Moved to the local Tyler refrigeration rep and really got into the markets. Now at the end on the pendulum swing, I have seen the light that the money is the same in HVAC for a lot less physical effort, but the mental challenges are not the same as refrigeration. Even the big process water and a/c jobs are all packaged equipment. And most of the manufactures, mainly Trane here, are real tight with the liturature that realy helps in the trouble shooting of the equipment. But it is paying the bills quite well, and I don't have to work an average of 60 hours a week anymore.

[Dowadudda]

I personally think that, after my experience in grocery work, has given me such a broader mind, you know what I am saying. That level of thinking. It's a tough damn job, not only physically but I think the most mentally challenging. And I went from that and use to doing 60 to 70 hours a week to HVAC. I would bee bop into some office building. Got a few tennants down. Get them taken care of, go to the roof or penthouse and check on the equipment. It's a fricken breeze. It's so much simpler. I am trying to get that sort of work now. And it's coming. I don't want to disrespect anyone on the HVAC side. All I am saying is, if you have seasoned in the grocery stores, larger tonnage hvac is the place to be. I prefer roof top stuff in the 75 to 100 ton range and some built up stuff with AHU's and splits. Boilers, there ok. But again. You walk into the penthouse which is basically your return air plenum with the air down, the whole building with out air, everyone is screaming. That stress aint nothing to compare to when a rack is down. When that rack is down, the whole world is on hold till I walk out of that room.

[frozensolid]

Big commercial A/C is no doubt easier than market work. It actually pays better too.

I read an article maybe a year ago, that pointed out the labor rate differences between the two. Supermarket service companies had lower hourly rates on average.

Get that? you have to know more but get paid less. Supermarkets generate a lot of work though, and they pay their bills.

The things I don't like about A/C work; A lot of bad engineering, and a lot of poorly thought out, and applied corrections to that engineering.

[NedFlanders]

Originally posted by Dowadudda
I personally think that, after my experience in grocery work, has given me such a broader mind, you know what I am saying. That level of thinking. It's a tough damn job, not only physically but I think the most mentally challenging. And I went from that and use to doing 60 to 70 hours a week to HVAC. I would bee bop into some office building. Got a few tennants down. Get them taken care of, go to the roof or penthouse and check on the equipment. It's a fricken breeze. It's so much simpler. I am trying to get that sort of work now. And it's coming. I don't want to disrespect anyone on the HVAC side. All I am saying is, if you have seasoned in the grocery stores, larger tonnage hvac is the place to be. I prefer roof top stuff in the 75 to 100 ton range and some built up stuff with AHU's and splits. Boilers, there ok. But again. You walk into the penthouse which is basically your return air plenum with the air down, the whole building with out air, everyone is screaming. That stress aint nothing to compare to when a rack is down. When that rack is down, the whole world is on hold till I walk out of that room.

Hey Dow,
are you out of the markets now?

[refer dude 2479]

Originally posted by frozensolid
Big commercial A/C is no doubt easier than market work. It actually pays better too.

I read an article maybe a year ago, that pointed out the labor rate differences between the two. Supermarket service companies had lower hourly rates on average.

Get that? you have to know more but get paid less. Supermarkets generate a lot of work though, and they pay their bills.

The things I don't like about A/C work; A lot of bad engineering, and a lot of poorly thought out, and applied corrections to that engineering.





Yep that is the other plus to what I am doing now verses what I was doing in markets. For all of you union guys out there you are probably aware that Hussmann has negotiated for the past several years directly with the UA, and have set a market refrigeration rate. Here in the bay area (San Francisco) that rate is quite a bit lower than the regular rate for the HVAC guys. Go figure???? Easier work load, better hours, less stress equals more money???? Sounds backwards to me. And again, if it aint fixed a 3:30 it gets fixed tomorrow. No more your working till the ice cream is hard again.

With all that said,,,,,,,,I still miss refrigeration at least 3 days a week. Very little real mechanical work in HVAC like in REFER

[NedFlanders]

Here in So Cal,Hussmann does have different rates then the rest of us "union slobs"

I'm told I.R. (their owner) would really like to ditch the union all together. Locally they have laid off about 70 - 80 techs(more or less).Some of which I now work with.
Some of their ex - employees got a 5 dollar an hour raise by just changing shirts.

[frozensolid]

Soon the markets are going price themselves right out of the talent. When that happens we won't look so expensive anymore.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by frozensolid
Soon the markets are going price themselves right out of the talent. When that happens we won't look so expensive anymore.

That really SUCKS!!!

I have been working in this trade for over twenty years and now I am just begining my adventure into serious super market systems! And I am learning that my pay will drop significantly and never ever reach the level I once received doing simple commercial refrigeration work!
Plus ... I got this learning curve that is pretty steep some days!

Last job I was working ins some fast food and school district stuff. Piece of cake. No learning curve. Top dollar for the area to boot.


What is wrong with market contractors?

[NedFlanders]

What is wrong with market contractors? [/B]

This is Hussmann...the once mighty Hussmann.
When I.R. bought them , rumors were flyin' on the Nextels. They are anti-union. I'm not "Johnny union",but it is a bummer if it is true.Time will tell.

R -12,
Your wages should not suffer.As you have recently noticed,market work is not for everyone.
The hours,the stress, how can wages go down,who would do it for less? I know I'm barely able to do it for what I'm makin'.(I'm not cheap:D)

[R12rules]

I know where my service manager has been and what he has done. I know what he is capable of performing.

Basically, for the wages he quoted me ... $22 an hour is tops, he said for this company.

He is slumming it for sure. He would go to work for just about any company and make boo-koo more than he is making here.
Me, well .... I am not worth what he is. Not for the same work anyway.
He and I each have our own specialties...

Anyway ... $22 and hour ... tops .... I would imagine they would start someone out at that pay rate and in short order ... INCREASE them upwards.

My co-worker has told me he could go elsewhere and earn more money.

I am making fifteen right now. And benefits are still months away.


Dont get me wrong, I am very very thankful for the op to work for this company, with these men and to learn this facet of market refrigeration service work!

However ... I must be able to provide for my family. And theonly way I am going to be able to do so is by living frugally.


I was taken to lunch yesterday by the son of the owner's wife.
He was explaining to me how market service work has been price war driven to the brink of disaster.

I'd say it's time to cut and run. It's time to transition into another facet of service work where there IS money to be made and men to earn it.
Right now we are having difficulty finding people to do the work with us.


Well ... if the wages are not there, then it's a no brainer WHY people arent falling over themselves to get in with us.


Something is very definately wrong here!!!

What do you think?

[NedFlanders]

with the lack of willing talent , there will eventually be a point at which something will have to give.
Response times suffer , quality of work, and eventually the sanity of remaining techs.
At which point,the remaining techs threaten to leave, the employer comes back with a raise( if they are worth it), the service rates increase.

These markets make a ****load of money. I have seen them actually beg a responsable company to respond to a service call because of the "lowballers" can't hang.

R 12 hang in there and learn.
Then go hunting for a better wage.

[condenseddave]

It's changing already.

Lowballers are starting to show their true lack of ability now, and it's paying off in a big way for us.

[Freezeking2000]

I saw the same thing as you Dave, but very slowly.The union guys putting down 30 per hour pluss 5 per hour in the pension and a TOP supermarket guy making 28 pluss 3 per hour for pension.

R-12 just make sure you get the hours on your ticketts if you know whay i mean!.i got 10 hours a week in travel alone!

Hang in there you will not regret the experience you will gain and once the company sees your ability you may pass your boss with him not knowing.

[NedFlanders]

Originally posted by condenseddave
It's changing already.

Lowballers are starting to show their true lack of ability now, and it's paying off in a big way for us.

like the oldtimers say "cream rises to the top".

(crazy oldtimers)

[smbore]

This is Hussmann...the once mighty Hussmann.
When I.R. bought them , rumors were flyin' on the Nextels. They are anti-union. I'm not "Johnny union",but it is a bummer if it is true.Time will tell.


Who knows which way it'll go now that I/R is driving the Hussmann bus!

[frozensolid]

Hang in there R-12 Supermarkets may be greedy and cost driven, but they are not stupid. As their talent level goes down, they will scramble to save themselves. Nothing cost more than lost product.

Fifteen dollars an hour, is not a bad start. In two or three months when you get comfy with the job, don't settle for less than twenty. If they won't pay, someone will.

[refer dude 2479]

Originally posted by frozensolid
Hang in there R-12 Supermarkets may be greedy and cost driven, but they are not stupid. As their talent level goes down, they will scramble to save themselves. Nothing cost more than lost product.


I don't know about the stupid market people seeing the light. There is a national chain hear in the Bay Area (name not mentioned but starts with an A) that has a policy that THEY will provide to the contractors items for repair such as compressors, refrigerant, large H/P motors and the like. You walk in find that the systems needs 500 lbs of refriferant, you call the office they call the main people at "A" and the people at "A" tell you when in the next couple of days you can expect that the refrigerant will be at the store. Have a mechanic in the store when it arrives and complete the repair. Makes for a lot of spoiled product. I will not shop there for anything. even canned food. They are taking our work and livlyhood out of our control, and placeing thier profit margin ahead of the public saftey. I don't see the market people getting smarted...

[frozensolid]

Give them time.