N2 over Ethernet

[gw42matt]

Hi

I have an UNT at a remote location that i would like to hook up to a FX40 remotely. The remote site is connected to the main office via a wireless network connection.

So my main question is there a product that will convert a N2 bus to Ethernet and then back to N2?

Thanks for your help and suggestions!

[amigo]

I think this may do the trick:
http://www.s2innovations.com/content.php?id=14

or this:

http://www.thes4group.com/Products/N2-switch.aspx

[steves4]

I think this may do the trick:
http://www.s2innovations.com/content.php?id=14

or this:

http://www.thes4group.com/Products/N2-switch.aspx

Thank you Amigo. You are correct. There are actually multiple ways that we can support this capability. GW43matt my contact information is in my profile.

[s2sam]

I think this may do the trick:
http://www.s2innovations.com/content.php?id=14

or this:

http://www.thes4group.com/Products/N2-switch.aspx

Indeed, Amigo is correct here.

We have a number of customers using our S2N2E that are doing exactly what the original poster is planning to do.

I would not suggest for you to use any of the simple RS-485 (N2 bus) to Ethernet converters, as these units do not have any built-in smarts to deal with any of the inherent Ethernet issues (i.e. packet latency, dropped/lost packets, etc) that you will experience in real World installations. Further, adding wireless to the mix will also add issues too (i.e. packet latency, etc).

Cheers,

Sam

[NINAX]

Yeah, but which of the two is the best value?

[s2sam]

Yeah, but which of the two is the best value?

Good day Ninax,

I guess only the original poster can really determine this. I do not know Steve's product and so I cannot comment. In regards to our S2N2E device, is quite simple to use and implement. All you need to do is add one S2N2E device (stand alone and powered by 16-24V AC/DC) to your local N2 trunk and another (one or more) S2N2E at the remote location(s). The S2N2E does not care what type of Ethernet connection you have (wired or wireless), as long as it can accommodate a static IP address and is fairly well managed (i.e. stable link and properly load balanced). Configuration is straightforward in that you just enter the standard Ethernet data (IP address, gateway IP, netmask, etc) and the N2 device(s) you are connecting to.

The only potential issue is that the S2N2E does not support VMA controllers (i.e. if the original poster needed this is the future). However, this may soon change....

Cheers,

Sam

[steves4]

Yeah, but which of the two is the best value?

Maybe this is an opportunity for some of you who have used each of the products to comment. Sam and I have known each other for many years and I have a lot of respect for his products and business ethics. In fact, we met while I was still with JCI.

What I proposed for this application was our S4 Open: BACnet-N2 Router-16. This is the smallest product in our BACnet-N2 Router product family. It supports anything that you will find on the N2 bus. The auto configure wizard discovers all N2 devices on the bus, assigns point maps to them, and publishes them to BACnet IP. I proposed this because it completely localizes the N2 traffic and BACnet IP will more likely be able to survive any glitches in the wireless environment.

To the FX40 our BACnet-N2 Router will look like any other BACnet device so the points that they need from the N2 devices can be very easily brought into the system. Metasys points are published as standard BACnet data objects with 6 digit instance numbers. The leftmost 3 digits reflect the address of the N2 device that the point came from. The rightmost 3 digits are used as a sequence number to make sure that the instance number is unique.

Where the rubber hits the road is when we find out how well each product met this customer's needs.

[amigo]

Steve, I have been always interested in your product. But it has always been difficult to determine what they really cost.
What I like about Sam's product is some of the true prices of his products are published on his website, and when I call him I get a straight answer, not all this who you are, how many you sell, etc.
I understand that typically there needs to be a distribution structure in place, and distributors need to make their cut.
But for regular/low sales volume integrators/resellers it is much more convenient and welcoming when they can have easy access and find out their true costs easily.

You can contact me via my profile, if you like to share the costs of your products.

:.02:

[steves4]

Steve, I have been always interested in your product. But it has always been difficult to determine what they really cost.
What I like about Sam's product is some of the true prices of his products are published on his website, and when I call him I get a straight answer, not all this who you are, how many you sell, etc.
I understand that typically there needs to be a distribution structure in place, and distributors need to make their cut.
But for regular/low sales volume integrators/resellers it is much more convenient and welcoming when they can have easy access and find out their true costs easily.

You can contact me via my profile, if you like to share the costs of your products.

:.02:
The pricing is not a secret. Here it is as an attached .PDF. In a few weeks we will be releasing a new web site with shopping cart capabilities so it will all be there in plain site. We do offer discounts to our partners depending on the type of relationship they are looking for and the volumes that they can generate.

[integrator]

Used the S2N2E product - as you are going wireless.

The S2N2E can be setup (by Sam) with software timers. This will account for lost comms and not flag the FX40 on and off a thousand times.

We have used it for very long runs over modems and wireless without any issues to date.


Good-luck

[s2sam]

Maybe this is an opportunity for some of you who have used each of the products to comment. Sam and I have known each other for many years and I have a lot of respect for his products and business ethics. In fact, we met while I was still with JCI.

What I proposed for this application was our S4 Open: BACnet-N2 Router-16. This is the smallest product in our BACnet-N2 Router product family. It supports anything that you will find on the N2 bus. The auto configure wizard discovers all N2 devices on the bus, assigns point maps to them, and publishes them to BACnet IP. I proposed this because it completely localizes the N2 traffic and BACnet IP will more likely be able to survive any glitches in the wireless environment.

To the FX40 our BACnet-N2 Router will look like any other BACnet device so the points that they need from the N2 devices can be very easily brought into the system. Metasys points are published as standard BACnet data objects with 6 digit instance numbers. The leftmost 3 digits reflect the address of the N2 device that the point came from. The rightmost 3 digits are used as a sequence number to make sure that the instance number is unique.

Where the rubber hits the road is when we find out how well each product met this customer's needs.

Good day Steve,

Thank you for your comments! And likewise from my side too :)

Your S4-Open and the S2N2E are sufficiently different in terms of how they look and operate (the S2N2E creates a completely transparent link to the FX-40 or any other N2 bus supervisory controller) that determining which is better suited for the original poster's needs is difficult and rather moot. I am sure either solution (or perhaps another one or many may come up to) would work fine for the application. However, there are probably other factors (perhaps non-technical) that will also influence the decision too.

In regards to your comments:



The auto configure wizard discovers all N2 devices on the bus, assigns point maps to them, and publishes them to BACnet IP


The S2N2E must be configured with what devices are being connected. However, all possible N2 objects are available to all devices regardless of the specific device. That being said, there are some internal DX objects (not points) that are not supported.



I proposed this because it completely localizes the N2 traffic and BACnet IP will more likely be able to survive any glitches in the wireless environment.


The S2N2E easily accommodates this without issue. The S2N2E can withstand up to a (non-sustained) 9 second packet delay without grief. If packet delays are consistently long (10's of seconds, etc) or the link is periodically intermittent, there are (user) configuration parameters that can be adjusted to minimize any erroneous off-lines that may and would occur.

Cheers,

Sam

[s2sam]

Used the S2N2E product - as you are going wireless.

The S2N2E can be setup (by Sam) with software timers. This will account for lost comms and not flag the FX40 on and off a thousand times.

We have used it for very long runs over modems and wireless without any issues to date.


Good-luck

Good day Integrator,

Thanks for kudos :)

In fact, the "software timers" you mention are now a standard firmware feature (user configurable option) in the S2N2Es.

Cheers,

Sam

[steves4]

Good day Steve,

Thank you for your comments! And likewise from my side too :)

Your S4-Open and the S2N2E are sufficiently different in terms of how they look and operate (the S2N2E creates a completely transparent link to the FX-40 or any other N2 bus supervisory controller) that determining which is better suited for the original poster's needs is difficult and rather moot. I am sure either solution (or perhaps another one or many may come up to) would work fine for the application. However, there are probably other factors (perhaps non-technical) that will also influence the decision too.

In regards to your comments:



The S2N2E must be configured with what devices are being connected. However, all possible N2 objects are available to all devices regardless of the specific device. That being said, there are some internal DX objects (not points) that are not supported.



The S2N2E easily accommodates this without issue. The S2N2E can withstand up to a (non-sustained) 9 second packet delay without grief. If packet delays are consistently long (10's of seconds, etc) or the link is periodically intermittent, there are (user) configuration parameters that can be adjusted to minimize any erroneous off-lines that may and would occur.

Cheers,

Sam

It is nice that the integrator community has choices! It usually boils down to what they really need, what they are willing to pay, and what they are comfortable to with.

[exwtk]

The only potential issue is that the S2N2E does not support VMA controllers
On your web page for the S2N2E, under supported N2 devices, I am also missing UNT and XTM. Are these supported or not ??

[s2sam]

On your web page for the S2N2E, under supported N2 devices, I am also missing UNT and XTM. Are these supported or not ??

Good day,

UNTs are supported (they were the first device to be supported) and are listed in the data sheet. I will have to update website to reflect this. XTMs I completely forgot about, as they are a more recent offering... sadly JCI had refused to release support documents on the XTMs to me, and so this too is currently unsupported, my apologies!

That being said, VMA and XTM support may happen at some point (soon ?). I say this, as JCI recently contacted me about the possibility of using the S2N2E as a replacement for one of their devices. If I did have the support documents, support for these devices would be a simple field firmware update (either a direct connect cable or remotely via the Ethernet). Given my experiences with Milwaukee and the speed with which they move, I have no clue when or if they would release these documents to me. So, if you require VMA and XTM support, then you must look at another solution.

Cheers,

Sam

[Under_Control]

Hi all, I want to revisit this subject for some clarity and maybe an update. While looking for an N2/ethernet solution, I have seen whereeveryone says it is viable for NAEs, and I was wondering if that means they all convert to Bacnet/IP, or if any of them actually do as the original quaestion put it, "convert a N2 bus to Ethernet and then back to N2"? I have need of this for an NCM system. I have a remote pulse meter that I need to add to an existing PMI and waas looking at both these devices for that, so any additional info would be appreciated

[s2sam]

Hi all, I want to revisit this subject for some clarity and maybe an update. While looking for an N2/ethernet solution, I have seen whereeveryone says it is viable for NAEs, and I was wondering if that means they all convert to Bacnet/IP, or if any of them actually do as the original quaestion put it, "convert a N2 bus to Ethernet and then back to N2"? I have need of this for an NCM system. I have a remote pulse meter that I need to add to an existing PMI and waas looking at both these devices for that, so any additional info would be appreciated

Good day Under_Control,

I am pretty sure that the NAEs cannot do this directly and you had to purchase JCI's SECVT device for remote N2 bus capability. However, this device only worked with the NAE 5500 series (I believe, but check to confirm) and was discontinued about a year and a half ago.

The S2N2E was the first device to offer N2 to Ethernet to N2 solution when it was introduced in 2002. It works with any JCI supervisory controller and allows multiple remote N2 bus connectivity via Ethernet. As mentioned in an earlier post, we do not support VMAs and XTMs. Given that you only need a single remote device/pulse to be brought back to an NCM, the S2N2E solution may not be cost effective, as it was designed for larger number of remote devices/remote locations. You could try contacting SteveS4 and check into their product, as it may be more cost effective.

Lastly, you could try, although I would not recommend, some inexpensive RS485 to Ethernet converters. In most cases these devices will not work directly, as they do not address a number of Ethernet issues that effectively create timing delays... which wreaks tremendous havoc with NCMs. If your network was very simple... i.e. only the two RS485 to Ethernet converters exist on the same sub-net, then it might work. Whether it will work reliably and consistently will depend on your network (i.e. intranet, internet, how well it is managed, if it is wired or wireless, etc).

Cheers,

Sam

[steves4]

Good day Under_Control,

I am pretty sure that the NAEs cannot do this directly and you had to purchase JCI's SECVT device for remote N2 bus capability. However, this device only worked with the NAE 5500 series (I believe, but check to confirm) and was discontinued about a year and a half ago.

The S2N2E was the first device to offer N2 to Ethernet to N2 solution when it was introduced in 2002. It works with any JCI supervisory controller and allows multiple remote N2 bus connectivity via Ethernet. As mentioned in an earlier post, we do not support VMAs and XTMs. Given that you only need a single remote device/pulse to be brought back to an NCM, the S2N2E solution may not be cost effective, as it was designed for larger number of remote devices/remote locations. You could try contacting SteveS4 and check into their product, as it may be more cost effective.

Lastly, you could try, although I would not recommend, some inexpensive RS485 to Ethernet converters. In most cases these devices will not work directly, as they do not address a number of Ethernet issues that effectively create timing delays... which wreaks tremendous havoc with NCMs. If your network was very simple... i.e. only the two RS485 to Ethernet converters exist on the same sub-net, then it might work. Whether it will work reliably and consistently will depend on your network (i.e. intranet, internet, how well it is managed, if it is wired or wireless, etc).

Cheers,

Sam
I also do not recommend using back to back RS485 converters as an extension cord for the N2 bus over an Ethernet backbone. Our initial testing showed that this configuration would work reliably only under very controlled and lightly loaded situations.

When we added support for commercial off the shelf RS-485 Ethernet Serial Servers to our S4 Open appliances we implemented it with one end of the connection being controlled by the S4 Open Appliance (BACnet-N2 Router or OPC-N2 Router) so that we could monitor and control the timing issues).