Attic insulation coming thru vents

[Daisy1950a]

I am at my wits end, physically and mentally. Not sure where to turn about this situation. 14 years ago we had a heat pump installed. Due to the make of the house it had to be installed with ceiling vents. In the attic there is blown cellulose insulation. About 2 years ago, I started to notice changes in the dust in the house, not to mention my breathing, skin problems, etc. In order to save about a thousand dollars we had a neighbor replace the all the duct work and vents. He has done this for 20 odd years.

Well to make a long story short the dust or should I say insulation is still coming thru the vents. It is subtle but after about ten days, if you run your finger across the dresser it will pick up a grayish, fibrous dust. When wet, it turns grayish brown just like the attic insulation.

We had him come up and look and he claims it's just normal dust, but it's not!

Now I am ready to cut my losses and have it redone, but HOW can I be certain this won't happen again? Is this warranted thru a normal heat pump company or would it get brushed aside by them too? I have come to realize it was never a good idea to install a heat pump with loose insulation like that, but that is hindsight.

Some women may know about heat pumps, but I do not! Thank you for any advice you can give me. I itch constantly, my skin is flaking very badly and to breath is like smoking constantly. Please help!

[seatonheating]

Where are you located?


Chances are your registers weren't sealed very well where they come through the ceiling, open to the attic.

[Daisy1950a]

Northeast Tennessee. My husband used the foam that grows to seal around the vents, but it is still coming in. As I sit here at 4 am, I feel as though there are tiny hairs on my face, itching constantly, and I know it is the cellulose. I really am at my breaking point. Is there any way to insure that a certified company would stand by their work that this would not happen? The neighbor works for one of the local companies so I'm not sure if companies would want to warranty that it wouldn't happen if they did the work, or just want to replace something else. It is so hard to think about going thru this again and again. The reality is that it has probably already given me cancer, and sometimes it seems why fight it anymore. I apologize but am really distraught over this whole situation.

[seatonheating]

Northeast Tennessee. My husband used the foam that grows to seal around the vents, but it is still coming in. As I sit here at 4 am, I feel as though there are tiny hairs on my face, itching constantly, and I know it is the cellulose. I really am at my breaking point. Is there any way to insure that a certified company would stand by their work that this would not happen? The neighbor works for one of the local companies so I'm not sure if companies would want to warranty that it wouldn't happen if they did the work, or just want to replace something else. It is so hard to think about going thru this again and again. The reality is that it has probably already given me cancer, and sometimes it seems why fight it anymore. I apologize but am really distraught over this whole situation.


Is it a complete metal duct system with no insulation lining in it? If it is ductboard or insulation-lined ducting then that is your problem.

What kind of filter do you have in your system?

[Daisy1950a]

It is not metal , but my understanding is that the insulation is on the outside of the plastic tubing? We use a 4 inch ,(20X20) filter, plus we had the (probably useless) UV light installed when he replaced the duct work. I even thought perhaps it was fibers from the filter, but not anymore. Thank you so much for your responses! Do you think metal duct would eliminate this problem?

Hubby says it is metal? What do I know?

[tedkidd]

One of the downsides of loose insulation.

Remove cellulose. Clean ducts. Install spray foam insulation. Put celllulose over top if more insulation needed.

[bmathews]

It sounds like there is a tear in the ductwork somewhere. The first step would be to call somebody out to find out what the problem is. There is not going to be any sort of warranty after 14 years, you should have called the company back 13 1/2 years ago. HVAC company's are not going to warranty another companies work.

[Daisy1950a]

You misunderstood, but that is ok. My question was if a company fixes it , will they guarantee I won't have the same problem?

Every company that comes out wants to replace everything! We can't seem to find anyone to just locate the problem and fix it. The entire ductwork was replaced in Nov. of last year.

[Daisy1950a]

One of the downsides of loose insulation.

Remove cellulose. Clean ducts. Install spray foam insulation. Put celllulose over top if more insulation needed.

This may be the fastest and simplest solution. Are there companies that remove the cellulose? Will the spray foam insulation eventually breakdown over time? Is it feasible to just lay the type in brown paper up there? I've heard that the spray foam type is highly flammable?

[mchild]

Get you duct work completed sealed and you should solve your dust/particulate problem, make your home more comfortable, and reduce your energy consumption.

Check out www.aeroseal.com

[Daisy1950a]

Get you duct work completed sealed and you should solve your dust/particulate problem, make your home more comfortable, and reduce your energy consumption.

Check out www.aeroseal.com
Not available in my state, but thanks.

[wahoo]

You mentioned that "to save a thousand bucks" you had your neighbor replace your entire overhead ductwork". If this is true, you didn't save anything because you now have a poorly installed and leaking overhead duct system. Everytime we see this problem it is leakage into the ductwork due to poor installation. Notify him of your problem (with a registered letter) and give him so many days (30?) to eliminate the problem, then if he fails, hire a certified professional to replace/repair and sue your neighbor! There is nothing wrong with cellulose insulation, you are simply blowing or sucking it into your home, and yes, this is harmful to your health just as doing the same would be if you had fiberglass insulation in your attic. If you actually hired an un-insured and un-licensed neighbor, then I wish you luck because you'll need it. Just remember that you saved about a thousand bucks, that and the loose cellulose insulation blown about your house should remind you that it may have not been worth the savings. Twenty years of experience in doing poor quality work is still just that. Good luck.

I agree, the problem is simply that the ductwork system is not sealed.

[Daisy1950a]

You mentioned that "to save a thousand bucks" you had your neighbor replace your entire overhead ductwork". If this is true, you didn't save anything because you now have a poorly installed and leaking overhead duct system. Everytime we see this problem it is leakage into the ductwork due to poor installation. Notify him of your problem (with a registered letter) and give him so many days (30?) to eliminate the problem, then if he fails, hire a certified professional to replace/repair and sue your neighbor! There is nothing wrong with cellulose insulation, you are simply blowing or sucking it into your home, and yes, this is harmful to your health just as doing the same would be if you had fiberglass insulation in your attic. If you actually hired an un-insured and un-licensed neighbor, then I wish you luck because you'll need it. Just remember that you saved about a thousand bucks, that and the loose cellulose insulation blown about your house should remind you that it may have not been worth the savings. Twenty years of experience in doing poor quality work is still just that. Good luck.

I agree, the problem is simply that the ductwork system is not sealed.

I humbly agree with you and thank you for your response.

[hearthman]

I deal with particulate matter contaminations and advise you to contact your insurance carrier. They will clean the home and seal the vents then THEY can subrogate to the contractor who caused the problem. Meanwhile, you get a clean, livable home.


I hate to tell people to sue but a construction defect is a defect and someone must be held accountable.

The ducts should be sealed to the ceiling with a UL 181 a/b-FX duct sealing mastic. Once completed, insist on having a blower door test with infrared thermography to ensure the ceiling is sealed tight. Include a duct blaster test to ensure the ducts are sealed, too.

The dust should be tested to prove where it came from and what it is.

HTH,
Hearthman

[Daisy1950a]

I deal with particulate matter contaminations and advise you to contact your insurance carrier. They will clean the home and seal the vents then THEY can subrogate to the contractor who caused the problem. Meanwhile, you get a clean, livable home.


I hate to tell people to sue but a construction defect is a defect and someone must be held accountable.

The ducts should be sealed to the ceiling with a UL 181 a/b-FX duct sealing mastic. Once completed, insist on having a blower door test with infrared thermography to ensure the ceiling is sealed tight. Include a duct blaster test to ensure the ducts are sealed, too.

The dust should be tested to prove where it came from and what it is.

HTH,
Hearthman

I am not sure the insurance would cover it, since the man did it as a side job, after work and on the weekend. Cash payment, too! Thank you for your response.

[VTP99]

Does your filter get loaded with the same stuff ?

[Daisy1950a]

Does your filter get loaded with the same stuff ?

Yes, although it seems to have gotten to be less, since hubby used the foam to seal the holes around the vents. We have used 3 of the 4X20X20 filters since Nov.

[mchild]

Not available in my state, but thanks.

Depending on where your are located in Tennessee, some of the neighboring state contractors may be willing to come to you. This is specialty service and for them to travel is not as big a deal as it would be for the more run of the mill contractor.

[VTP99]

Where is your return air located ?

[Daisy1950a]

Depending on where your are located in Tennessee, some of the neighboring state contractors may be willing to come to you. This is specialty service and for them to travel is not as big a deal as it would be for the more run of the mill contractor.

Thank you for the advice. I am on the border of VA and TN.

[Daisy1950a]

Where is your return air located ?


In the hallway. We have wood floors in the hall and living room. One bedroom with carpet, the other 2 have the fake wooden floors. I have wondered about the fake wooden floors, as they were made in China. (drywall problem from China in Fl?) I have racked my mind with this worry.

[VTP99]

Any other returns ?

[Daisy1950a]

Any other returns ?

No

[VTP99]

Is the one return high or low on the wall ?

[bmathews]

Put some pics on here. Particularly where the ducts attach to the furnace/air handler. The duct runs and where they attach to the buckets. That should tell a lot about the problem.

[VTP99]

Put some pics on here. Particularly where the ducts attach to the furnace/air handler. The duct runs and where they attach to the buckets. That should tell a lot about the problem.

:ditto:

[lentz]

Could be you have a hole in the return duct that is sucking in the insulation evertime it runs. Check all ceiling supply boots and seal off all cracks. A large amount of homes have blown insulation with no problems. Get a pro and have him fix the problem.

[MicahWes]

Unless there is a huge return air leak past the air filter, this is not cellulose insulation dust. It just doesn't make sense. Have you always had so much hard flooring? Most people that switch from fully carpeted houses to hard flooring materials complain of increased dust.

[im4snow2000]

Sounds like an opening/leak somewhere in the return air ducting.....possibly where the R/A ties into the filter cabinet and/or to the air handler.

When the system runs, it pulls air (think vacuum) from your home via the return air registers that you can see, runs that air through your filtration (4" filter), then through the air handler, than pushes the air through the supply trunk and ultimately out the supply registers.

That system, described above, should not allow any attic air in.....it should be a closed system. So somewhere, and my guess is in the return air portion, you've got an opening of some sort.

Worst case have someone remove and reinstall the return air, peice by peice, ensuring to seal every connection, including where the return air meets the drywall (behind your return air register).

[MicahWes]

All that is not necessary. A simple and quick look to make sure there are no large openings in the ductwork are all that is required. This dust is not coming from the attic insulation! I'd bet you a Goodberry's banana split on it!

[im4snow2000]

All that is not necessary. A simple and quick look to make sure there are no large openings in the ductwork are all that is required. This dust is not coming from the attic insulation! I'd bet you a Goodberry's banana split on it!

I can't afford those stakes....hopefully for her sake you're right.

[Shophound]

Unless there is a huge return air leak past the air filter, this is not cellulose insulation dust. It just doesn't make sense. Have you always had so much hard flooring? Most people that switch from fully carpeted houses to hard flooring materials complain of increased dust.

We have laminate hardwood flooring and our dust levels are actually lower over that of a carpeted house. It is more visible, which is why folks might think there's actually more dust. Main difference is carpet will "digest" dust whereas hardwood flooring will not.

If there is a leak in any section of attic mounted return air ducting, or if the air handler/furnace is in the attic and one of the access doors is leaking (prior to the blower) then it is highly possible that dust from the cellulose insulation is being inducted into the system and blown into the house. Remember that return air duct pressure is negative in relation to the attic air pressure. Guess where any airborne dust in the attic will go in such a situation.

[MicahWes]

A scenario that explains the way I see it: Suppose you have a 16 inch flex return terminating at a boot in a ceiling register that has a 1-inch (huge!) gap between the boot and the flex. This system has a grill-mounted filter only. Suppose there is 1 foot of cellulose packed all around the boot and flex. The very first time you start this system some cellulose is going to get pulled into the system. Whatever is loose enough to get sucked in will get sucked in. From then on no more cellulose will get pulled into the duct unless the insulation is disturbed around the gap in the ducting therefore knocking more insulation loose. Now if the static pressure changes, say, from a clogged filter, perhaps a little more insulation will get pulled in due to increased air flow through the gap. Now, if you have dusty air in general in your attic, this will get pulled through the insulation that is at the gap and into the system, but this may decrease over time as the insulation actually filters out dust particles going through it. This in itself might cause a few more particles of insulation to get sucked in as the insulation itself loads with dust. I have a well-ventilated attic with cellulose insulation. It is a walk up and is visited frequently. It is not very dusty up there at all. The only dust that gets generated up there comes from from the outside air though my attic vents, and is only particularly bad in the spring when there is a lot of pollen. In the winter when there is little outside particulate coming in the attic, there is very little dust up there unless I go up there and disturb the insulation

Concerning carpeting: Good carpeting produces little dust on its own. Carpeting is a terrific "catcher" of dust though, and most carpeted homes will have less dust on shelves and tables and such because most of the dust gets trapped in the carpet instead of floating around. If you have carpets and vacuum regularly, you will almost always have less dusting of hard surfaces to do compared to a home (like mine) that has no carpet at all.

[energy_rater_La]

flex duct leaks either at plenum (this is sheet metal or duct board)
or where it connects to supply box.
mastic seal ducts at plenum, caulk plenum to 2x's and 2x's to attic floor.
use mastic tape to seal supply boxes from inside (remove grill
tape inside box to sheetrock ceiling..replace grill) foam does not
make a complete seal and shrinks in hot attic over time.
seal return from inside house in addition to sealing from attic.

cellulose is entering the house via leaks from attic to conditioned space.
'dust' is a common complaint with cellulose.

do you have recessed lights?

hire a company to do a duct leakage test.
you would also benefit from a whole house air leakage test
to find leaks between attic and living space. (blower door test)

best of luck

[tedkidd]

Spray foam guys often have large vacuums for removing fiberglass which will work just fine for cellulose.

[m kilgore]

flex duct leaks either at plenum (this is sheet metal or duct board)
or where it connects to supply box.
mastic seal ducts at plenum, caulk plenum to 2x's and 2x's to attic floor.
use mastic tape to seal supply boxes from inside (remove grill
tape inside box to sheetrock ceiling..replace grill) foam does not
make a complete seal and shrinks in hot attic over time.
seal return from inside house in addition to sealing from attic.

cellulose is entering the house via leaks from attic to conditioned space.
'dust' is a common complaint with cellulose.

do you have recessed lights?

hire a company to do a duct leakage test.
you would also benefit from a whole house air leakage test
to find leaks between attic and living space. (blower door test)

best of luck

This is good advice and what I recommend also. Your attic floor is leaking or your ducts or both and you need to find out the source before you can repair it.
A blower door test will tell you how bad the attic is leaking into the living space and a duct blaster will tell you how bad your ducts are leaking. Find a company that does these tests and start there.

[Daisy1950a]

Thanks to all of you for your advice. I hope in our little rural area, I can find a company to do the tests mentioned in this thread.

Replies to questions asked of me. I hope I don't leave anyone out.

The return is low on the wall in the hall.

I can't post pics, as something happened to my program and cameras have been retired.

We have had hard wood flooring in the living room and hall for ten years and never had this problem. We installed laminate in 2 bedrooms over the last 5 years.

I have dusted all my life, but this is not normal dust as I stated in my original posts. Let's see if I can describe it a little better. If you rub your fingers together after swiping some of it, it seems to have a waxy feel. You can see feathery, fibers, and if you wet it it clumps together and turns a grayish brown color. (it is a whitish gray prior to wetting) We have electric heat downstairs and the dust is not like that, plus it is carpet and tile completely downstairs.

I will ask my other half to read the replies and hopefully we can come to a decision on who to call. I may call the local electric company and see if they will send out their inspector, to see what he says.

Thanks again for all the great suggestions!

[mchild]

Thanks to all of you for your advice. I hope in our little rural area, I can find a company to do the tests mentioned in this thread.

Replies to questions asked of me. I hope I don't leave anyone out.

The return is low on the wall in the hall.

I can't post pics, as something happened to my program and cameras have been retired.

We have had hard wood flooring in the living room and hall for ten years and never had this problem. We installed laminate in 2 bedrooms over the last 5 years.

I have dusted all my life, but this is not normal dust as I stated in my original posts. Let's see if I can describe it a little better. If you rub your fingers together after swiping some of it, it seems to have a waxy feel. You can see feathery, fibers, and if you wet it it clumps together and turns a grayish brown color. (it is a whitish gray prior to wetting) We have electric heat downstairs and the dust is not like that, plus it is carpet and tile completely downstairs.

I will ask my other half to read the replies and hopefully we can come to a decision on who to call. I may call the local electric company and see if they will send out their inspector, to see what he says.

Thanks again for all the great suggestions!


Your electric company may do blower door tests.

[energy_rater_La]

the return is probably leaky also. if you see exposed 2x's in the walls
this will also be a source of leakage. if the filter rack is dirty around where
the filter goes..return leakage.

in new construction these returns and heating closets are usually
sheetrocked and sealed. in existing homes ductboard is my material
of choice. and caulk of course.

if you seal the leakage areas the air moving through the system
and your home will be cleaner also.

and btw.. we all travel. I am sure that you can hire someone to
travel to your location.

Best of luck.

[Shophound]

A scenario that explains the way I see it: Suppose you have a 16 inch flex return terminating at a boot in a ceiling register that has a 1-inch (huge!) gap between the boot and the flex. This system has a grill-mounted filter only. Suppose there is 1 foot of cellulose packed all around the boot and flex. The very first time you start this system some cellulose is going to get pulled into the system. Whatever is loose enough to get sucked in will get sucked in. From then on no more cellulose will get pulled into the duct unless the insulation is disturbed around the gap in the ducting therefore knocking more insulation loose.

The insulation around this gap (speaking in terms of a ceiling mounted return air boot open to the attic on the top side) can be disturbed every time someone opens and closes a door in the house, opens/closes a window, or by some other means manages to change the pressure differential between attic and house, such as running exhaust fans or using a powered attic ventilator. Wind forced into the attic through soffit, gable end, or ridge vents can also disturb loose fill insulation.

The gap around the boot isn't the only culprit. Any leakage on the return side of the system between the boot and the air handler in the attic will draw in attic air. If the house has any amount of leakage between house and attic, which most houses built with ventilated attics and insulated attic floors do, it's possible for air movement between house and attic to disturb loose fill insulation enough to create dust. Add in some thermal bypasses that also communicate air between house and attic - another path for dust generation.

Now one might think that a house with natural stack effect would keep any dust stirred up by such air movement up in the attic where it belongs. Sure - until you add an air handler with a leaky return plenum and ducting. Now you have a method of pressurizing a house with air that comes from a dusty attic. AND it enters the flowing air downstream from any ceiling mounted air filter, therefore we have no filtration for this dust. Bummer.




It is not very dusty up there at all. The only dust that gets generated up there comes from from the outside air though my attic vents, and is only particularly bad in the spring when there is a lot of pollen. In the winter when there is little outside particulate coming in the attic, there is very little dust up there unless I go up there and disturb the insulation


Go up there with a good air particle counter and you'll likely be told a different story. Visible dust is only a fraction of what is suspended in air at any given moment. Smaller than 10 microns, the human eye has trouble seeing dust particles.


Concerning carpeting: Good carpeting produces little dust on its own.

That hasn't been my experience. Especially with new carpet. One huge wall to wall fuzz generator. Not to mention volumes of VOCs off-gassing into the house for months after installation.


Carpeting is a terrific "catcher" of dust though,

And pet urine, insect feces, human skin cells, etc.


and most carpeted homes will have less dust on shelves and tables and such because most of the dust gets trapped in the carpet instead of floating around.

Until you actually walk around in the house on the carpet, perhaps. When I did residential service, the cleanest air filters that could go for months without changing were in carpeted or tiled/hardwood floored homes with senior citizen occupants. The dirtiest were carpeted family homes, or homes with pets and children, or the dreaded "cat lady" house. :D


If you have carpets and vacuum regularly, you will almost always have less dusting of hard surfaces to do compared to a home (like mine) that has no carpet at all.

Good housekeeping granted, the cleanest homes are the ones that don't leak a lot of air into or out of the envelope.