2-yr old system needs new compressor/capacitor

[kcpark]

Thanks in advance for your advice. I appreciate the pros who take the time to answer questions in this forum.

I previously posted on here that the breaker to my heat pump unit was tripping and had 2 techs come out (the company that installed the unit, and another independent Lennox dealer). They both diagnosed the problem as a grounded compressor and bad capacitor. This system is 2 years old and has been well maintained.

The parts are obviously under warranty, but my question is this: what, other than faulty/bad equipment, would cause the system to go bad? We have had no power surge/failures. Poor/improper installation? Why doesn't Lennox (or the dealer that installed the unit) stand behind the product and cover all the costs of repair/replacement? The auto industry seems to do things right regarding warranty work.

Any insight is appreciated.

[Todd S 2]

Thanks in advance for your advice. I appreciate the pros who take the time to answer questions in this forum.

I previously posted on here that the breaker to my heat pump unit was tripping and had 2 techs come out (the company that installed the unit, and another independent Lennox dealer). They both diagnosed the problem as a grounded compressor and bad capacitor. This system is 2 years old and has been well maintained.

The parts are obviously under warranty, but my question is this: what, other than faulty/bad equipment, would cause the system to go bad? We have had no power surge/failures. Poor/improper installation? Why doesn't Lennox (or the dealer that installed the unit) stand behind the product and cover all the costs of repair/replacement? The auto industry seems to do things right regarding warranty work.

Any insight is appreciated.

Our policy is: if a unit, that we install, has a compressor failure in the first five years, we'll replace the condenser not just the compressor.

[beenthere]

Our policy is: if a unit, that we install, has a compressor failure in the first five years, we'll replace the condenser not just the compressor.

There are probably a hand full of companies in the country that do that. But the vast majority don't.

[beenthere]

T
The parts are obviously under warranty, but my question is this: what, other than faulty/bad equipment, would cause the system to go bad? We have had no power surge/failures. Poor/improper installation? Why doesn't Lennox (or the dealer that installed the unit) stand behind the product and cover all the costs of repair/replacement? The auto industry seems to do things right regarding warranty work.

Any insight is appreciated.

When you buy a car. You are buying a finished product from the car maker.

When you buy an HVAC system. Only the equipment id from the manufacturer.

The manufacturer has no control over how it was installed.

While you don't remember any spikes, or brown outs. One could have happened while you were not at home and the system was running.

Does your system have proper air flow.

If you need a compressor, you also need more then just a cap with it.

Your HVAC companies aren't replacing everything they should be.

[ARoss]

Why doesn't Lennox (or the dealer that installed the unit) stand behind the product and cover all the costs of repair/replacement? The auto industry seems to do things right regarding warranty work.

Any insight is appreciated.

Several variables that can cause a compressor to fail at any given time regardless of age.
Ask the contractor that you choose to repair the unit to do a full evaluation of the system, from electrical to ducting.

In defense of the HVAC industry...The auto industry added the cost of a 3 year/36,000 mile warranty into the base price of the vehicle.
HVAC extended warranties are available seperatly.

[leander311]

Our policy is: if a unit, that we install, has a compressor failure in the first five years, we'll replace the condenser not just the compressor.

er whole condensing unit?

[Todd S 2]

er whole condensing unit?

Yes, the entire condenser (thingy) outside, not just the compressor.

[SouthTex]

On new installations we do a 10 year parts and labor warranty, we purchase the extended wwarranty from the manufacture and include it in our quote. 2 year old grounded compressor would suspect something else is wrong with the system that caused the problem. Have a full system check when they get done with the compressor, there are a number of things that could cause a compressor to go to ground.

[kcpark]

Bids were to replace the compressor, the capacitor, filter/biflow drier, plug and refill refrig. I would agree on a whole system check, as well.

This is my primary concern/complaint - nobody is willing to step up and accept the responsibility of customer service! Blame the grounded compressor on a bad capacitor...blame the bad capacitor on some "possible" electrical surge...what should matter most is that a manufacturer and the "professional" that installs the unit should stand behind their work. I'm not looking for a free ride here, just a little professionalism and integrity.

I appreciate all your comments, and realize it is hard enough to figure these things out in person much less in a forum like this. I am just looking for a little insight into the industry-standard expectations.

[tipsrfine]

Bids were to replace the compressor, the capacitor, filter/biflow drier, plug and refill refrig. I would agree on a whole system check, as well.

This is my primary concern/complaint - nobody is willing to step up and accept the responsibility of customer service! Blame the grounded compressor on a bad capacitor...blame the bad capacitor on some "possible" electrical surge...what should matter most is that a manufacturer and the "professional" that installs the unit should stand behind their work. I'm not looking for a free ride here, just a little professionalism and integrity.

I appreciate all your comments, and realize it is hard enough to figure these things out in person much less in a forum like this. I am just looking for a little insight into the industry-standard expectations.

I guess the big difference between hvac and cars is dealers just sell the car-they don't build it. With hvac systems, the manufactuer sells the parts and the installer/contractor builds them into a "system". So now you have 2 cooks in the kitchen and neither one feels they are the one that spoiled the broth. Sometimes it's the manufacturers equipment at fault & sometimes it's the installer/contractors fault, and sometimes you just can't know whose fault it is-don't forget to include your electrical provider into the equation and acts of nature. The solution provided to you may not be perfect for either party, but it's fair-all things considering. Oh yeah, don't forget someone in your home being at fault possibly, by turning on the cooling on a day when it's only 55 degrees outside or something. Who knows.

[cehs]

ALL companies set limits.
Car mfgrs set THEIR limits (warrenty)
HVAC mfgrs set their limits.
INSTALERS set their limits.

Do NOT expect everyone to have or set the SAME limits.

I know of a couple of installation companies arround here the would replace the WHOLE condensing unit within the 5yr period, but they charge twice what the rest charge, for the original install ....

[Stamas]

Often with compressor change outs you don't find the cause of why it failed till after the compressor was replaced. Or while it's being changed. From weighing out refrigerant and comparing the amount removed to what it really should have, to air flow, controls and electrical issues.
Was the capacitor blown, or just on the weak side?

[duckman373]

Were the terms of the warranty specified in the contract?

[simplyrollin]

Bids were to replace the compressor, the capacitor, filter/biflow drier, plug and refill refrig. I would agree on a whole system check, as well.

This is my primary concern/complaint - nobody is willing to step up and accept the responsibility of customer service! Blame the grounded compressor on a bad capacitor...blame the bad capacitor on some "possible" electrical surge...what should matter most is that a manufacturer and the "professional" that installs the unit should stand behind their work. I'm not looking for a free ride here, just a little professionalism and integrity.

I appreciate all your comments, and realize it is hard enough to figure these things out in person much less in a forum like this. I am just looking for a little insight into the industry-standard expectations.

The HVAC contractor didnt manufacture the equipment, so a failed mechanical or electrical component is quite possible from time to time. Sounds like a bad cap was the culprit. I have had this happen before. It is not our responsibility to repair it for free once your labor warranty has expired. The problem with America these days is too many people got their hands out, saying ohhhh poooor meee, and just want a free damn ride. Suck it up and pay to have it repaired. Life sucks sometimes.

[crmont]

The HVAC contractor didnt manufacture the equipment, so a failed mechanical or electrical component is quite possible from time to time. Sounds like a bad cap was the culprit. I have had this happen before. It is not our responsibility to repair it for free once your labor warranty has expired. The problem with America these days is too many people got their hands out, saying ohhhh poooor meee, and just want a free damn ride. Suck it up and pay to have it repaired. Life sucks sometimes.

You should try reading the OP's post before you assume.

You don't want to sound ignorant...or do you?;)

[robinair]

installed by a retard serviced by a moron , blame the box NOT ! its 100 % pilot error and will happen again until someone checks TESP and flushes the system pulls a vacuum to 500 microns and charges to true subcooling at design conditions , did i lose anyone yet ! Oh an fix the high TESP before firing up the pot . I,M not going to explain the abreviation , pass it on to the retard who istalled it and see if he knows what TESP is ( its the silent Killler of all compressors ever made period )

[kcpark]

Stamas - the capacitor was blown (top of capacitor was bulging).

[TriWorksInc]

I would like to know how many lbs refrigerant they take out when the compressor is changed out, in my experience when the compressor blows on startup, its the manufacturer, when it goes two - three yrs later its the install. The only thing is the possibility that the air filter was never changed and killed the compressor. I have been on more than my share of fresh filters after the fact of (destroying the compressor).
I was called to a residence with a 2yr old ductless system, lineset was 15 feet, unit factory charge with 2.11 lbs, compressor was grounded. When I pulled the charge, customer standing with me watching digital scale, I removed 11 lbs of refrigerant from the system. You can easily see that they were trying to charge by pressure. This is way to common of a problem.

[wahoo]

Customer compared our industry with the automotive, but wait, if we fail to have maintenance performed (most times by the factory dealership) then the warranty on our new car is void! If his HP was never serviced and filter changed for two years and capacitor failed due to compressor short cycling on high internal limit, then who is to blame? We actually once lost a compressor in 3 years, had mailed HO numerous PM brochures, but when it quit we found they HAD NEVER CHANGED THE AIR FILTER IN 3 YEARS!!!! We sold them a PM agreement after that and units are still running. We discounted the labor and materials used in compressor replacement, but ONLY IF THEY AGREED AND PAID FOR OUR PM AGREEMENT!! Just thought I'd throw that out there! We always now include at least a 5 year labor in all our units. Live and learn.

[SNOOKER]

If the system has a txv the compressor needs a start cap. if it doesn't have one it's going to tripp the breaker and possibly short the compressor again. The company should know this and most companies will cover for at least a year all parts and labor. i think it goes back to education in the industry.

[crmont]

I would like to know how many lbs refrigerant they take out when the compressor is changed out, in my experience when the compressor blows on startup, its the manufacturer, when it goes two - three yrs later its the install. The only thing is the possibility that the air filter was never changed and killed the compressor. I have been on more than my share of fresh filters after the fact of (destroying the compressor).
I was called to a residence with a 2yr old ductless system, lineset was 15 feet, unit factory charge with 2.11 lbs, compressor was grounded. When I pulled the charge, customer standing with me watching digital scale, I removed 11 lbs of refrigerant from the system. You can easily see that they were trying to charge by pressure. This is way to common of a problem.


You've got to be fawkin kidding me.

[crmont]

If the system has a txv the compressor needs a start cap.


Not necessarily true.

[TriWorksInc]

I wouldn't kid like that, I have a standard joke, " if they can't figure out what's wrong with, it just stuff some more refrigerant into it."

[VTP99]

I wouldn't kid like that, I have a standard joke, " if they can't figure out what's wrong with, it just stuff some more refrigerant into it."

Triworks,
No high pressure switch on that system ?:eek2:

[John Markl]

If it's a two-year-old SYSTEM that I installed, the compressor comes from the distributor, and the rest is on me.

I can't imagine charging someone for anything inside 2 years, unless it was gross negligence by the customer.

[TriWorksInc]

No, and the indoor unit had so much nicotine and dirt stuck to it. It smelt like a barn on a hot day. Again unit was only 2-3 yrs old. Not my install, company that installed was out of business ( thank God).

[VTP99]

No, and the indoor unit had so much nicotine and dirt stuck to it. It smelt like a barn on a hot day. Again unit was only 2-3 yrs old. Not my install, company that installed was out of business ( thank God).

Wonder what the head pressure was running at ?

[TriWorksInc]

They countinued to fill with refrigerant until they saw pressures that ressembled that of a standard split a/c unit and not what a ductless would have, remember a ductless line set is basically metered both directions ( Suction and liquid lines are both insulated).

[FarleyRedfield]

Thanks in advance for your advice. I appreciate the pros who take the time to answer questions in this forum.

I previously posted on here that the breaker to my heat pump unit was tripping and had 2 techs come out (the company that installed the unit, and another independent Lennox dealer). They both diagnosed the problem as a grounded compressor and bad capacitor. This system is 2 years old and has been well maintained.

The parts are obviously under warranty, but my question is this: what, other than faulty/bad equipment, would cause the system to go bad? We have had no power surge/failures. Poor/improper installation? Why doesn't Lennox (or the dealer that installed the unit) stand behind the product and cover all the costs of repair/replacement? The auto industry seems to do things right regarding warranty work.

Any insight is appreciated.

I always offer a factory backed (NOT A 3RD PARTY) extended warranty of 5 or 10 years. I cover the first year, the factory covers the parts for5 years and sometimes 10 depending on model. The labor is either on the homeowner or the factory backed extended warranty. But the homeowner always has an opportunity to buy the extended at time of installation.


Warranties offered by 3rd party (I.E. Equiguard, and Home Warranty Service) for real estate sales are not dependable to cover labor and or materials if needed. See under scams heading for my post on Equiguard.

If you were not offered such a warranty that is a shame. But Im sure you have heard of extended warranties and like any knowledgeable consumer you have a duty to ask about such items if your interested in them. If you didnt ask I'd assume you are not interested I try to always ask just so the homeowner can say yes or no.

If offered and you decided not to take it this is one time I bet you would do it differently if given the opportunity.

As far as parts Most manufacturers will provide parts but not freight nor materials like brazing or vacuum pumps nor return freight for the warranty parts. This part of the warranty as spelled out. Investigate the warranty certificate and see what and how long coverage is for.

A bad capacitor could have caused the whole problem or the compressor motor could be the culprit. If they don't find anything else this would correct the repair. Also you will need to buy suction and liquid driers for added assurance the problem wont repeat due to impurities left inside the system from this unfortunate problem. If the guy doesn't put these in ask him to explain how the system is going to be cleaned up without them. DO NOT LET THEM GET by without finding out about DRIERS and if they will be warranty or you ahve to buy them. And tell them you want Activated charcoal media - burnout type drier on the suction. KEEP that new compressor CLEAN.

[John Markl]

This is locking the barn after the horse is gone, but you should better screen future work, as to what they offer in the way of warranty.

If I put a new, complete system in your house, it's all mine for the next five years.....no extra costs for extended warranties or anything of the sort.

Manufacturer/distributor covers the parts for five years, and I cover the labor.

[wahoo]

John, How do you handle the torch fee, freon, filter dryers and stuff like that? Surely you can't just "eat" this stuff? Even if there is a labor warranty along with the manufacturer's warranty there is still misc. stuff not covered. Unless you are pricing a warranty reserve into every quote, this has to become your expense directly, right? And if it's "all yours" then will you respond at 2am, or send an employee out at that hour on overtime free of charge to customer? None of our factory labor warranties cover any overtime charges.

[kcpark]

Folks,

I am the homeowner, and started the the thread. Let me answer some questions for you (sorry for the random order):

The inside filter was changed, meticulously, every three months. We are non-smokers. I reset the breaker ONCE, and after noticing the breaker was tripped again (within the same day) I switched to emergency heat and consulted this forum, and was subsequently urged to get a tech out to diagnose the problem. I had three seperate techs out at my expense (two independent and the company who installed the system when the home was built) and they all agreed, without previous knowledge of the other techs analysis, with the same problem.

Though it is "builder-grade" 13 SEER, it is a 5-ton unit and is more than big enough to handle a 2800 sq ft home in the midwest. The system was properly maintained. According to the techs, the unit holds approx. 16 lbs of R-22.

John Markl - it appears you stand behind your work. To me, this is the right and honorable way to do business. I bet that, knowing you hold a little more responsibility behind your installs, you do it right the first time. Something tells me you have fewer failures/mech. breakdowns than the industry standard and don't have to worry about all the things wahoo mentions. Kudos to you.

[John Markl]

John, How do you handle the torch fee, freon, filter dryers and stuff like that? Surely you can't just "eat" this stuff? Even if there is a labor warranty along with the manufacturer's warranty there is still misc. stuff not covered. Unless you are pricing a warranty reserve into every quote, this has to become your expense directly, right? And if it's "all yours" then will you respond at 2am, or send an employee out at that hour on overtime free of charge to customer? None of our factory labor warranties cover any overtime charges.

We do a good job, and yes, I stand behind my work. And yes, if I sold you the system within the current season, I will respond at 2 am.

Our fail rate is miniscule. Ask my distributors. I've never sold an extended warranty, nor have I ever collected a labor allowance from a distributor. 99.9 percent of what you buy is ok. If you install it right, you should have no problems.

I've sold countless systems over the years, that I don't hear from them again for years....when I ask them about it, they say, "it's been working great, no worries, and thanks again!"

[crmont]

Folks,

The inside filter was changed, meticulously, every three months....

I call Barbra Streisand.

You have to have a service agreement from your installing contractor to have an extended warranty through that dealer. If this were the case then I'd agree that it should have been 100% covered.

Otherwise, no.

[John Markl]

I call Barbra Streisand.

You have to have a service agreement from your installing contractor to have an extended warranty through that dealer. If this were the case then I'd agree that it should have been 100% covered.

Otherwise, no.

Please explain.

I don't "force" anyone to buy anything from me to keep their warranty in effect. If negligence causes a problem, I tell them it's not under warranty. I also don't warranty contactors for fire ants.

[wahoo]

kcpark...believe it or not, any and all business people have to "worry" about things that I mentioned. The manufacturer never "gives" that misc. stuff to their dealers free of charge, and if "we" must give this stuff away, then it becomes even more difficult to make a profit. When you consider the "average" net profit in this business is less than 2% each year that leaves no room for "freebies" regardless of what we "wish" or "want". Builder grade units have the least amount of warranty and also the least amount of profit of any equipment, so the builder "gave" you the bottom of the barrel equipment. It's a bad deal for you, but I'd start hollering at the builder if you can't get the manufacturer to help out. When he put in the cheapest, he got you the cheapest. Actually, the government (EPA) made everyone remove the poison oil from capacitors (which drastically shortened the life), so blame the EPA. Sorry for your problem.

[VTP99]

P C B

[crmont]

Please explain.

I don't "force" anyone to buy anything from me to keep their warranty in effect. If negligence causes a problem, I tell them it's not under warranty. I also don't warranty contactors for fire ants.

I do the same. That's why I called out barb.... (there's always more to the story...get it?)

[simplyrollin]

kcpark...believe it or not, any and all business people have to "worry" about things that I mentioned. The manufacturer never "gives" that misc. stuff to their dealers free of charge, and if "we" must give this stuff away, then it becomes even more difficult to make a profit. When you consider the "average" net profit in this business is less than 2% each year that leaves no room for "freebies" regardless of what we "wish" or "want". Builder grade units have the least amount of warranty and also the least amount of profit of any equipment, so the builder "gave" you the bottom of the barrel equipment. It's a bad deal for you, but I'd start hollering at the builder if you can't get the manufacturer to help out. When he put in the cheapest, he got you the cheapest. Actually, the government (EPA) made everyone remove the poison oil from capacitors (which drastically shortened the life), so blame the EPA. Sorry for your problem.

I agree, our profit margins are already very low, due to contractors low balling and giving away freebies, I wouldnt just do it for free.

[davo]

This is getting stupid.
If he paid to have a system installed with a one year labor warranty, thats what he should get. If he paid for a system to be installed with a 5 year labor warranty, that's what he should get.

Why would a contractor eat a labor warranty if it was not in the contract?

John Markl,
You know as well as I do, when you figure a job, your warranty costs for labor is figured usually as a percentage. Your just charging a little more on every job, and the law of averages play out!
Whoever put in his system figured a one year warranty. It does not make them good or bad, it is how they figured the job, and the OP (or GC) purchased the job.
By the way, I do cover fire ants in contactors!

Wahoo,
If you are only making 2% net, you are charging properly.

[wahoo]

Davo, just went to a local ACCA meeting and the business coach putting on the presentation said the NATIONAL average for HVAC was 1.8 so we're slightly better than average. That's why my moniker is Wahoo!!! Can't decide whether to take a vacation to Aruba, or buy pizza for the office Friday afternoon....decisions...decisions! :patriot:

[Stamas]

I'm with John on this.
If I don't see any serious sign of abuse or neglect in such a short time I will take care of it outside the written warranty. Yeah it costs money to do this, but I think it will cost MORE money not to do this.
It's a losing battle to explain it more I think.
And KC, I can understand the cap being blown, but it's a chicken and the egg kinda thing.

[davo]

Davo, just went to a local ACCA meeting and the business coach putting on the presentation said the NATIONAL average for HVAC was 1.8 so we're slightly better than average. That's why my moniker is Wahoo!!! Can't decide whether to take a vacation to Aruba, or buy pizza for the office Friday afternoon....decisions...decisions! :patriot:

Call me either way and I'll buy the Beer!!

[wahoo]

Well Davo, if you do, then there goes this month's profit!! Lite Beer?