Heat Pump vs Heat Strip System - TX

[CB57]

I currently reside in an all-electric TH in Houston, Texas area and I am in the process of getting quotes for a replacement system. My old 20 yr + Lennox 3 ton Heat Strip / AC system has died. Should I go with a Heat pump or Heat strip for the heating side - I'm worried a bit about electric rates down the road as natural Gas rises and electricity goes up in cost. Looking for guidance in replacing this system. I see a lot about HP on this and other forums.. not much on Heat Strips. Thanks

[amd]

What are your "winter" bills like?

Climate?

Heatpumps in all but the warmest climates (temp never drops below 45F) require heat strips to temper the air during defrost cycles and provide backup below the balance point. (balance point is temp below which the heatpump can't keep up without supplemental heat) The air handler and heat strips will most likely need to be replaced anyway, so the real question is whether the extra premium for a heatpump (over a standard a/c) is worth paying. Modern heatpumps can reduce heating costs by 2/3s over heat strips alone in mild weather - above 32F. It must also be noted that they put out cooler air in heating mode than heat strips.

[tedkidd]

I always learn stuff at this site!!! Wondered how defrost was handled for heat pump only systems! Thanks amd.

The incremental cost of a heat pump very quickly justifies itself on energy savings alone. You can expect 3-4x the increment back over the life of the unit. That doesn't begin to factor other benefits.

As is so often true when you cheap out... You will regret not making the investment for a long time, if you regret making it the regret will be short (in this case you won't regret making it).

If you have Natural Gas get dual fuel/hybrid heat. Currently somewhere between 15f and 25f is the economic balance point depending upon gas and electric in your area. Below those temps a 95% eff gas furnace will provide BTU's cheaper than a high efficiency heat pump.

[beenthere]

Per unit of energy, gas is far cheaper than electricity from power plants - presumably you don't have natural gas available.

Its not the unit of energy that counts as much as how you use that unit. of energy.

At 10 cents a KWH and 1 dollar a therm for gas.

A HP at a COP of 2.8 is cheaper then a 95% furnace.
If its a 80% furnace, then its a COP of 2.4.

At outdoor temps of 40 to 30°. Aux heat during defrost is more for comfort.
Generally temps below 30 if aux heat doesn't come on during defrost, the HP won't be able to recover the temp lost during defrost. Before the next defrost cycle begins.

Being in Houston, his A/C requirements should be enough that his thermal balance point is quite low. May not even need aux heat. And he should save considerably with a HP over straight electric strip heat.

[Airmechanical]

It must also be noted that they put out luke warm to cool air.

your were not very specific about this cool air

when does a heat pump put out cool air while in the heat mode

how cool is this cool air you are speaking of?

usually in the cooling mode you will get 60 degree supply air

but your saying a heat pump delivers cool air during the heating cycle?

i know what you meant, but maybe the guy contemplating a heat pump doesn't



.

[dirtyboy103us]

here we go again

a heat pump is only going to recover the added cost in the heat cycle

xxxx.xx for a heat pump and only 30 days a year heating to recover the cost
will take 20 years to recover the money(maybe) and one repair on that cadilac and you never get it back

for weather in the 40's to 50's this thing is a beast but as you get lower temps it starts to be useless hit the 20's in FLA and and the heat calls went crazy here no heat ho heat

houston looks like its right on the cusp for a heat pump like northern fla
if you have weather like atlanta you will save big if its like tampa may never see it again

[heaterman]

While the cost of the new system will most likely be middle to upper $ XXXX.xx the actual added EXTRA cost of a heat pump over straight AC system is more like upper $ XXX.xx. In his particular climate, why wouldn't he go the heat pump route?

[classical]

Would you people please read a post before you reply, the OP stated they live in an all electric Townhome so no, gas is not available.

Heat Pumps are an excellent choice for Houston but it can take a considerable time to payback the extra cost. As stated by others it depends on what your current electric bills are.

If you go the HP route it is best in fact imperative that you install a variable speed blower if not you will have humidity control issues during the summer. You will also need to upgrade our return air capacity as you are most assuredly undersized even for a straight A/C system.

There are other options that can drastically reduce your electric bills on an all electric TH besides the HVAC system.

[leander311]

Hi CB57... As others have stated, it's all about your current costs for heat, which implies asking, how much do you use it? If your townhome is a "middle" unit and thus sandwiched above and between other units, you would have very little exposure to the elements and thus probably use very little heat, in which case paying extra for a HP model probably makes no sense. It's all about the LCCA aka life cycle cost analysis. Most smart "clients", be it residential, commercial, etc, will insist on a LCCA to justify the added cost for any type of more efficient system.

If your townhome has a lot of exterior walls and roof, HP may be the way to go. Let us know what your heat usage is like, and we can be much more helpful. Thx.

[gary_g]

for weather in the 40's to 50's this thing is a beast but as you get lower temps it starts to be useless hit the 20's in FLA and and the heat calls went crazy here no heat ho heat


My 3-ton, 14 SEER / 9 HSPF heat pump can maintain a 68F indoor setpoint at 25F ambient without the use of aux electric strips.

At 25F ambient, the pump puts out 91 degree air (based on a 70F return air temp).

The palm of your hand is about 89F, so any moving air close to that temp may feel cool to the touch.

Take care.

[energy_rater_La]

we have had the coldest winter in years in this area
I've been doing some diagnostic work for a local utility
company, for their high utility bill complaints.
all houses are straight a/c with electric strip.
While I can identify where the house problems are
their best investment would be to change to a heat
pump when work on house is done. Usually once
the house if fixed (air and duct leakage reduced) current
hvac is oversized, thus a good time to change unit.

one client paid almost three times in Feb (and 3x kwh usage)
than in August. with heat pumps winter time utility costs are
much lower. for our climate heat pump upgrade cost pays
for itself in less than 3 years.
electric strip is the most expensive way to heat.

best of luck

[CB57]

Thank you all for the replies:

Some additional background - The reason the HP has been brought up during replacement is that I annually serviced the units I have, and the serviceman commented several times over the years that when the units were to be replaced he would replace w HP w backup strips rather than plain Heat strips, My TH is Electric only – NO gas… The electric bills this winter (Usually 2 months) was about $180/mo while running about $80 in the summer. I also do not inhabit the main room in the winter very much where this unit would manage since I keep the T Stat at low-mid 60’s for cost purposes. It is expensive to heat and keep this big room compfortable and warm in the winter. I have systematically worked to tighten the envelope of this TH with double pane windows, weather-stripping, caulk etc. so I am cognizant of energy conservation methods and the monetary ramifications.. I see energy costs going up in the future and being all electric, I am sitting at a crossroads in a choice of units.

The main livingspace in this TH that this unit manages has lots of windows and faces NW w 1 big main room w loft , 20 x 40 w 26ft arched ceiling running the full length. Some of the windows are double paned Low E Argon - except the 2 large 6 ft ¼ circle windows that are 19 ft in the air which are single pane. These will be upgraded when I get the $$. Recent Man J (HVAC-CALC) states that 2.5T Min - is needed. The old unit in the attic is 3T.

If strips or HP are the way to go (either way), I have some configurations I have been quoted and would like feedback on the equipment combinations (no pricing) to insure an efficient and good workhorse unit is installed. I'd like to get the Tax Credit if that can be managed w/o tradeoff in upfront cost. Have some Bryant and Amana units quoted. I would also like guidance as I have been reading about this subject (in this and other forums) for a while over the past several months since I knew I had to deal with this expense in the Spring. The businesses I have contacted seem to be BBB members with good track records and seem to know what they are talking about.. I'm spoiled as this old unit lasted 20+ years. I have a second unit that might need attention in a few more years, but right now its working fine..Thank you in advance..

[bmathews]

If you have $180 in the winter and $80 in the summer. You are going to fall somewhere in between those 2 numbers when you have a heat pump installed. The heat pump won't run as much in the winter as the a/c does in the winter. It is Texas afterall, it gets lots hotter for longer than it does colder. But you are still going to be running the heat strips off and on for supplemental heat. The system will run probably 10 years before a coil leaks or a compressor fries. Figure in the price of a heat pump vs. heat strips installation vs. 10 years of survival. I think you'll probably break even if not ahead by installing a hp, unless your contractor has a huge price difference between the 2. Which I wouldn't expect them to be.

[Gimmered]

My guess is your heat pump would have a much faster payback then new windows. Even if you double your window efficiency it is still 2X not much.

[leander311]

Are you aware of the rebates the state is offering for purchases made 4/16-4/25? For the same SEEER/EER, the rebate is $600 higher for a HP over simple AC. This should cover a good portion of the added cost.

http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/arra/rebate/index.php#offers

Seems like a good fit if you've already sourced several quotes from good installers, assuming you are looking at >14.5 SEER systems.

[CB57]

I looked at those rebate units listed for the state rebate. None are big enough..and I cant find info on them locally here in TX

Here is the info on the quotes I have today..Looking for guidance on attributes. plusses and minuses / comments suggestions..

General comments off the top - contractor 1 is reasonable; 2 is much higher and 3 - extremely high

This is what I have so far

Contractor 1

ARI 5033134
Bryant Legacy 225ANA036-B HP (15.5 SEER/13.00EER/ 8.5HSFP )401A
Bryant FV4BN(B,F)003 Fan Coil w Tin Plate
Bryant KFCEH0901N10 Heat Strip
Bryant T6 PHP T stat
Replace plenums – supply / returns
Flush lineset – he claims is the correct size
Replace main drain , overflow pan, add cut-off float switch, new drain line
10 yr condenser, compressor & 10 yr parts Fan coil 10yr

ARI3033136
Bryant Legacy 225ANA036-B HP (16.5 SEER/13.50EER/ 9.0HSFP )401A
Bryant FV4BNB006 Fan Coil w Tin Plate
Bryant KFCEH0901N10 Heat Strip
Bryant T6 PHP T stat
Replace plenums – supply / returns
Flush lineset – he claims is the correct size
Replace main drain , overflow pan, add cut-off float switch, new drain line
10 yr condenser, compressor & 10 yr parts Fan coil 10yr

Bryant condenser 114A 401A – 5 yr Parts Limited warranty
Bryant FV4B Variable speed Fan coil
Replace plenums – supply / returns
Flush lineset – he claims is the correct size
Replace main drain , overflow pan, add cut-off float switch, new drain line

Contractor 2

ARI 1050715
Amana Distinction 3 ton Condenser ASX16 w R410a
VS Air Handler AFPF303616A
Heat Strip 10KW 10-1C – Not staged
New Lineset , suction line dryer; ceiling saver Disconnect
10yr Parts & Labor

Contractor 3

Lennox 3T XP14036230 14 SEER 410A Condenser
Lennox 3T Coil CBX27UH036 UV light
Vision Pro 8000 T stat
Replace plenums – supply / returns
Flush lineset – he claims is the correct size
Replace Disconnect, Electric Whip, Safety Pan, install Float Switch, Drain Line
10 yr condenser, compressor, Coil & 10 yr parts Evap coil 10yr

Trane 3T 4TTX5036A1000A 15SEER 410A condenser
Trane Air Handler 4TEC3F36B1000A W 10KW Strip
UV Light
Focus Pro 6000 T stat
Replace plenums – supply / returns
Flush lineset – he claims is the correct size
Replace Disconnect, Electric Whip, Safety Pan, install Float Switch, Drain Line
10 yr condenser, compressor, Coil & 10 yr parts Evap coil 10yr

Appreciate any comments on this / these equipment combos.

Thanks

[RyanHughes]

The 3rd dealer's Lennox quote is a heat pump but doesn't appear to include any back-up heat strips. The Trane quote is an air conditioner (no heat) but has heat strips. The 3rd dealer did not quote a variable speed air handler in either option (doubt the Trane will reach 15 SEER without). The Bryant quotes look solid--in fact you may want to see what the upgrade cost would be to go with the Preferred series heat pump #265ANA036-B. Nice unit. He could include the T6-PRH (TP-PRH) thermostat instead, which has the ability to control dehumidification with the indoor blower--of course only if configured to do so. I don't have much to say about the Amana combination. Amana Distinctions is really like Goodman with the Amana name plate. The Amana ASX16, however, is a genuine Amana unit which in my mind is a more premium unit (you can compare specs). Not sure why a suction line drier is suggested; perhaps the dealer intended to include a liquid line drier which would make more sense.

[tedkidd]

My guess is your heat pump would have a much faster payback then new windows. Even if you double your window efficiency it is still 2X not much.

since windows typically have 20-30 year payback and incremental cost of heatpump ( cost of 1 quality window) pays back in 3-6, I'd say your "guess" is safe to upgrade to a bet.

I prefer carrier/bryant, but only if you get communicating equipment. Since that wasn't recommended I am inclined to think you will be best served by the goodman contractor as I feel linesets should be replaced if practical, particularly when switching to 410a. Goodman now has communicating equip, so he can serv that for you. Finally, variable speed motors are really important, don't cheap out there.

[CB57]

Thank you very much for the data.

Is there any feedback on evaluating a Heat Strip A/c unit. One was suggested..If the Bryant Contractor was the best of the bunch so far are there suggestions as alterantives.. ? If any? Thanks

[classical]

Brand is less inportant than the quality of the contractor and their install procedures.

The most important need for Houston with or without a HP is a variable speed motor.

TE I doubt that the line set can be replaced on a townhome and be approved by the homeowners association.

[cancienne9]

CB57...howdy. I see you have received quite a bit of activity from your question. I have owned heat-pumps for most of my life. They do a good job in most areas. I do not think you can beat their cost savings versus straight strip-heating. Maybe someone has data to prove me wrong, but until then I would go for the heat-pump. I myself am partial to Trane products, but that is my choice and does not mean there are not other good vendors available.

Good luck...!

[CB57]

Thank you all very much..

[aircooled53]

Houston climate does get allot of really cold weather, so back up electric heat strips on a variable drive air handler would do you a great job.

Heat Pump-14.0
Variable drive -air handler
15kw strip package
digital thermostat
4-5" pleated filter system

[jw4335]

Heat pump will save you money.How much it saves you depends on climate where you are at. The salesman should be able to compare operating cost of each and help you make your decision.

[CB57]

An update:
I need some more advice..
I did go ahead and buy the 3T RUUD unit last year as guided. It has worked very well and I got the tax credit too.
A/C worked well last summer however this past winter we had a reasonably cold February here in Houston. The HP did have to “work” long cycles to get the area somewhat warm. I am concerned about the unit having to really work long cycles and produce not really warm air. Is was running a lot - to warm the space.. The performance seemed to be much better when the temperature went to 40F during the day when the units would kick on. During the coldest part of the snap it struggled to get adequate heat into the space. The last heat strip units ran 25 years and did a good job – however much more expensively. Going forward I am trying be as efficient as I can be…
I have a second unit to replace..I nursed that old 2nd Lennox HS unit thru this past year and don’t believe it will last at all this season. I recognize that I have another unit to buy and the HP did save $$ on the heat and A/C side this year…. Markedly.. Besides Texas still has funds left for rebates on efficient units. Want to get that B 4 it runs out. So I need to act…

Since I am all electric (NO Natural Gas), I am looking for another unit at 2.5T for this other side of the home. Manual J says 2.5T is needed. The rooms in this living area are the sleeping quarters, bathrooms, master BR and showers along with the den. I need to make sure that the heating aspect will provide more heat than what I experienced with the 3T heat pump in the main room this past winter.. . I need to feel warm in the winter in this other space since there is a risk of catching cold / other by stepping out of the shower.… if the heat is not present in qty. … AND another consideration - when we get up to go to work its usually in the early AM – when the temps are most likely to be at the lowest part of the day and the HP will probably be the least efficient – that is when the heat is needed. I need to address this aspect in the choice I make today..

Contractor who did the last install did a good job.. I have no issue on getting another RUUD and using him

He is quoting another RUUD 2.5T HP similar setup as last years 3T

HP UPQL-030JEZ
AH RHKL-HM3617JA
7.5KW HS
15.5 SEER / 13 EER
New supply and return Plenums
5” Pleated Filter System
New Copper Lineset ¾”
Crane for roof Top Mounting
Fully installed to code

If I look at the RUUD website, the unit is not rated outright as an energy credit qualifying type unit. In addition the warranty that is published on that unit is only 5 years and the warranty on the other "upper level" units is 10years. The old units I had were HS Lennox units that lasted 25 years. I want to make a wise investment so the unit I will buy is a solid sturdy unit that can last a very long stretch.. 5 yr stated warranty seems light to me..

Can you give me some insight on the unit quoted above ..and some suggestions on what other Ruud units might be “A Step Up” and sturdier – and a “value”. Manufacturers update lines all the time. Maybe further improvements were made on some Ruud units ..AND - Maybe he is quoting a good solid workhorse unit and that’s fine.. A good solid unit is what I want …..
Questions

Should I increase HS capacity? ... to what level?
Also can the other unit be retrofitted w additional heat capacity?
Vertical Vs Horizontal
Can I get AHRI Data will be a great help on your additional model suggestions?

Thank you in advance..

[tedkidd]

Ask your house to stop losing heat, the your heat pump doesn't have to replace that heat.

The amount your unit runs doesn't change the heat being lost by your house. The disconnect is your perspective, not the unit. Do you think you want a unit that doesn't run much, or a unit that runs all the time?

If you wanted 50 watts of light at night, would you buy a 100 watt light bulb and turn it on for 10 minutes and off for 10 minutes, or would you buy a 50 watt bulb and leave it on all the time?

Any wonder why people have such problems with equipment being over sized? They're unhappy when it's properly sized.

[amd]

I'm not sure where people got the idea that equipment is best operated intermittently.

That being said, oversizing a HP a little bit (0.5 ton) can reduce heatstrip use so it might be worth while.

[energy_rater_La]

I vote for heat pump, with variable speed.
being in a similar climate heat pumps have been my recommendation
to my clients.
within 2 to 3 years the winter savings over electric strip pays for
the hp upcharge over a/c with electric strip.
electric strip is THE MOST EXPENSIVE way to heat your home.

best of luck.

[CB57]

Still looking for some feedback on the unit specs. Thanks