410 manifold gauges?

[snooked321]

This is one of those he said she said things. Somebody mentioned today that he heard that you should use 410 gauges only for 410 and not anything else because of the oil. I dont see a problem with it? Is this total BS or what?

[big sky hvac]

Yes you should have a seperate set of gauges for 410A & R22 because of the oil. The 410A uses POE & the R22 uses Mineral Oil. If you put mineral oil in a 410A system, you're asking for trouble. This is the reason you have to flush R22 lines and coils when replacing with a 410A unit. I carry a seperate set of 410 gauges so I don't have to worry about the problem or accidently mixing 410A with R22 or vice versa.

[Pascone10]

This is one of those he said she said things. Somebody mentioned today that he heard that you should use 410 gauges only for 410 and not anything else because of the oil. I dont see a problem with it? Is this total BS or what?

yes this is true. Ive been doing this since i started working with the 410a. I would recommend it along with many manufacturers.

[skippedover]

Well I don't know what you guys are working on but all the systems I work on are under pressure. That means that when I attach my gauge set, no matter what was previously in the lines, is pushed up toward the pressure gauge, not sucked into the system. Likewise on a vacuuming, the suction is away from the system, not toward it. I also am careful to purge my lines after initially hooking up to a unit so I don't accidently push air into the system if I should have to add charge. Once again, that pushes any significant oil lin the lines out and away from the system, rather than in toward it. When charging, I'm also purging the lines prior to introducing refrigerant to the shrader valve so where in the heck are you guys getting oil from one system into the other?

[monkeyman#1]

What happens if you hook up to a flat system?

[skippedover]

Well if it's flat, it's got a lot more trouble than a few drops of oil. But that's beside the point. What happens if you hook up to a flat system or one in a vacuum and you just worked on a unit of the same refrigerant type but the unit was on its way to a burn-out. If you suck that stuff into any other unit, you're cross contaminating and you'll be taking out two compressors. So which is worse? I didn't say I don't use 2-gauge sets but I question the need. Guys have used one gauge set for multiple refrigerant types for years and not had catestrophic failures. I've been working with R-410A for nearly 15-years and not had any more problems with them than I ever had with R-22. I just think there's too much paranoia surround the mysterious R-410A.

[ARoss]

Having two sets of gauges and designating one for POE oil and one for Mineral oil is good practice.
However I find it hard to imagine the amount of residual oil you might have in your hoses would cause a problem.
Maybe if you went back and forth between a POE and Mineral oil system that was flat or in a negative pressure a few hundred consecutive times.
This will be a which came first the chicken or the egg type of debate for a long time

[snooked321]

Thats what i was thinking, such a small amount how would it ever effect anything? Geuss it doesnt hurt to error on the side of caution. Like skipdover said what about the oil residue in the lines after evacuating a burn out? Same line of thought huh? Of course if you flushed your lines after, but come on!?

[just_opinion]

Oil in the gauges is not the most important. Having 2 gauges is good pracices.

Look at the 410A gauge carefully, you will see large sacle than R22 gauge. Since 410A is operate at higher pressure.

So if you want to measure 16 ouces of gas mixer, will you use a gallon cup.

You would not want a doctor use a cow's serine to measure your 10 ml anti-biotic and jap it in your button.

AND please don't let the temperature run in circle on your gauge fool you that it is accurate for all those freon. Use you PT chart.

Remember that you want 12 degrees super heat not 18,which is only a difference between the skinny section of the needle and a fat section of the needle on you gauge.

[jpsmith1cm]

The only reason I would worry about separate gauges for 410 and 22 would be the operating pressures.

The worry about oil is overblown.

[wildtech]

The only reason I would worry about separate gauges for 410 and 22 would be the operating pressures.

The worry about oil is overblown.

I agree only god knows how make times Iv'e used the same gauges on 404 and 22 or other refrigerants such as Hp80, mp39,507, 410.
The only thing that matters with 410 is the press.

[crmont]

I agree only god knows how make times Iv'e used the same gauges on 404 and 22 or other refrigerants such as Hp80, mp39,507, 410.
The only thing that matters with 410 is the press.

What about about moisture?

If you are using your gauges for 410, and then switching to 22, then more than likely you will expose the internals of the gauges to air.

Whatever POE is in the set can become an acid and then potentially delivered to another system.

I use my 22 gauges for 22 and for evacuating new systems only. I have a dedicated set for 410 that never sees a neutral or negative pressure. It has low loss fittings on all the hoses.

BTW I live in Oregon so it's always wet around here....

[wildtech]

purg hoses. I have never had a problem with contamination and primarily what I do is com ref. I work on poe systems that only hold 5 oz all the way up to the larger stuff including hvac. What your saying is what I was taught in school be thats the way I was shown in the field and Iv'e never had a problem. Think of it like this. Your on call and get a call 2 am you go out and find that theres a leak on a poe 404 system its a walk-in freezer. The unit lost all its charge I mean zippo because a tree branch fell on the suc line. Food is starting to thaw out cust. is on your but. I know that in theory your supposed to change the oil and filter. But if you were going to play the by book game you'd lose the cust. So what do you do. What I did was the same as other times. Change filter pull a quick vac, and re-charge. The systems ran fine all through the long Holiday weekend until I went back and did it the right way. Or for instance a leak on a 134 poe reach-in. Cust ain't gonna pay for a new tin can or oil change. So what do you do again patch the leak and evac add cahrge and move on. I can't remember how many cases I got running like this for this reasturant chain. As most refer guys know it is possible to have head press, and have suc in a vac and the case still running warm but running. Heck I had a kairak runin like that this past Monday. I patched leak changed filter and moved on. I no the oil was exposed to moisture with suc in a vac but nothing more could have been done. Belive me you'll be fine. That little kairak didn't even hold a pound of 134.

[bwalley]

Having two sets of gauges and designating one for POE oil and one for Mineral oil is good practice.
However I find it hard to imagine the amount of residual oil you might have in your hoses would cause a problem.
Maybe if you went back and forth between a POE and Mineral oil system that was flat or in a negative pressure a few hundred consecutive times.
This will be a which came first the chicken or the egg type of debate for a long time

I have about $1,000.00 in my guage set, I don't think I am going to be having a set for R22 and R410a.

[AggieEngineer]

This is one of those he said she said things. Somebody mentioned today that he heard that you should use 410 gauges only for 410 and not anything else because of the oil. I dont see a problem with it? Is this total BS or what?

It's BS... but with a grain of truth. My theory is a lot of the confusion and extremism proliferated on this site and the industry in general originated from the days when only a few brands had R-410A (Puron) systems. All their competitors wanted to find or exagerate reasons to scare the industry away from it. And, there is at least some level truth behind all the claims I've heard. Now, I guess it is hard for those that proliferated some extememities to retract because it causes them to look foolish for switching positions.

Testing confirms measurable loss of heat transfer when you get into the range of 5% MO contamination in a 410A/POE system. How many times will you have to swap your gageset between an R-22 system and the same R-410A system to get 2 ounces into it???

I applaud the guys who strive to do it right but some of the extremes are only costing you or the end user unnecessarily.

Just my rant on the subject...

[bhahvac]

Always have 2 different sets of gauges.

When I taught R410A training for a manufacturer, the presentation had a slide that shows a ping pong ball in an olympic sized swimming pool. That is the ratio copeland says it wants no more mineral oil than that in an R410A system.

With all the everyone has learned about contamination, and moisture why would you even risk cross contamination? Over a $120 set of gauges? Not enough room on the truck? You must be kidding.

POE oil LOVES moisture. POE oil in your gauges and hoses LOVES moisture too. So work on a 410 unit, get some POE in it, carry around your truck all day then charge some systems with it, the moisture laden POE oil.

Huh?

Next thing you know those filter driers won't be important and neither will pulling one of those vacuum thingys....

I didn't know there was such a thing as a $1000 set of gauges. If I had $1000for gauges I'd have 2 410A sets and 2 R22 sets.

Shame is the manufacturers have started backing off some of the POE claims as they know they will take warranty losses for sales NOW. Some have said, sure use the old line set, even the old coil...WE'LL let you...so you will buy OUR UNITS...because our sales suck!!

I think the moistiure and contamination will start to bite us pretty hard in a few years when it has time to set it for a while.

[RayD8630]

When I taught R410A training for a manufacturer, the presentation had a slide that shows a ping pong ball in an olympic sized swimming pool. That is the ratio copeland says it wants no more mineral oil than that in an R410A system.

So...does that mean if we have flared connections we're supposed to use POE oil on them instead of MO from now on?

[mike dixon]

yeah thats right, lets not cut open a dog turd to see if there is poop in it ok?

[crmont]

So...does that mean if we have flared connections we're supposed to use POE oil on them instead of MO from now on?


That's an excellent question. I have my method but I'm not giving it away yet.

:anyone:

[RayD8630]

See when I started learning about that in school we were told to use some MO on the flared connections. We were told we're allowed to have up to 5% MO in a POE system. I've also heard 20% but I think that's a little much. Might as well just use all MO at that point.

[bwalley]

Always have 2 different sets of gauges.

When I taught R410A training for a manufacturer, the presentation had a slide that shows a ping pong ball in an olympic sized swimming pool. That is the ratio copeland says it wants no more mineral oil than that in an R410A system.

With all the everyone has learned about contamination, and moisture why would you even risk cross contamination? Over a $120 set of gauges? Not enough room on the truck? You must be kidding.

POE oil LOVES moisture. POE oil in your gauges and hoses LOVES moisture too. So work on a 410 unit, get some POE in it, carry around your truck all day then charge some systems with it, the moisture laden POE oil.

Huh?

Next thing you know those filter driers won't be important and neither will pulling one of those vacuum thingys....

I didn't know there was such a thing as a $1000 set of gauges. If I had $1000for gauges I'd have 2 410A sets and 2 R22 sets.

Shame is the manufacturers have started backing off some of the POE claims as they know they will take warranty losses for sales NOW. Some have said, sure use the old line set, even the old coil...WE'LL let you...so you will buy OUR UNITS...because our sales suck!!

I think the moistiure and contamination will start to bite us pretty hard in a few years when it has time to set it for a while.

Digicool DRSA 1250 a TrueTech manifold and then the hoses comes real close to $1,000.00.

[Robert77]

Who out there has two recovery units on their vehicles for r22 and 410a, when reusing refrigerant back into a system?

[bhahvac]

Very fair points, all. Fortunately most recovery systems are oil-less.

I think it behooves us to take the most common precautions, that we can afford.

And of course, we tend to bow to the almighty Copeland and their guidelines. The one I was taught was 50 parts per million.

And if a manufacturer like copeland or any one else says, 50 PPM they probably know most guys will overshoot that and.... heck ...10% is OK.

[jpsmith1cm]

Very fair points, all. Fortunately most recovery systems are oil-less.

I think it behooves us to take the most common precautions, that we can afford.

And of course, we tend to bow to the almighty Copeland and their guidelines. The one I was taught was 50 parts per million.

And if a manufacturer like copeland or any one else says, 50 PPM they probably know most guys will overshoot that and.... heck ...10% is OK.

Doesn't make a difference if the machine is oil-less or not. The inside of the machine MAY be contaminated by mineral oil.

[crmont]

This will probably jinx it, but I have yet to have an r410 compressor failure. I just have a recovery bottle in case I have to remove some for minor charge adjustments (knocking on wood...)

[bwalley]

Who out there has two recovery units on their vehicles for r22 and 410a, when reusing refrigerant back into a system?

I always use virgin refrigerant.

[IRONHILL24]

With the oil you can have up to 5% mix but I would use 410A gauges. What is the first thing you do when you remove your gauges? Remove your high side and open your low side. This will mix your oil if using 22 gauges. No this wont do anything to the compressor at first but over time this will. We should all be PROFESSIONALS and used the right tools.

[jpsmith1cm]

Can ANYONE quantify how much actual oil would be contained in a gauge hose full of normally circulating refrigerant?

I am thinking that the amount is so vanishingly small as to be insignificant.

[IRONHILL24]

Its a small amount but you have to ask your self, How many other tech used R-22 manifolds on this system? How many techs cleared 100% of the R-22 out of their gauge set? I have seen too many units die becuse a contractor did not replace the line set when R-410 started with Carrier and now this is the first year you will see a lot of commercial unit with R-410A . I just think the risk is too big over the long term.

[jpsmith1cm]

I won't do too much work with 410, honestly. Maybe a little rooftop work.

That is because I am primarily a refrigeration mechanic.

I've been working with HFCs and POE oil for 15 years. It isn't anything new to us refer guys like it is to you AC guys.

[bhahvac]

Doesn't make a difference if the machine is oil-less or not. The inside of the machine MAY be contaminated by mineral oil.

True, I meant to say that the oil would hold moisture more easily.

[RayD8630]

You guys ever seen this stuff?

http://pag-idemitsu-usa.com/pve_benefits.htm

[crmont]

You guys ever seen this stuff?

http://pag-idemitsu-usa.com/pve_benefits.htm

This is what Daikin uses. It will not react with water. That's why Daikin (and others) don't need filter driers. It's more expensive so the domestic manufacturers probably won't switch.

[Airmechanical]

It isn't anything new to us refer guys like it is to you AC guys.

is there anyway for us to get a signed photgragh of ya!:couchhide::grin2:



.

[AggieEngineer]

Danfoss currently uses PVE in their Scroll Tech Compressors.

As for the effects of moisture on PVE systems, PVE is just as hygroscopic as POE. PVE doesn't breakdown but, there are plenty of other of things to react to moisture. MO didn't react with moisture either but you still needed a filter drier. PVE is a vehicle to carry significant amounts of moisture into the system. They still need a filter drier.

[jpsmith1cm]

is there anyway for us to get a signed photgragh of ya!:couchhide::grin2:



.

Sure.

That will be 29.99.

If Twilli can get paid, so can I. :eek2: