tough Dual Fuel question?

[bradley wayne]

Just installed a dual fuel unit and I cannot get the unit to swith while running.
On a call for heat it picks heat pump or Gas correctly.

But,
while the system is running and the temp goes above or below the balance point the system will not switch. I am using an 8000 tstat.

I tested this by putting the sensor in ice or pulling it out of ice.

I have ask around and am getting mixed opinions on this.

what does it take to make the unit switch while running. My thinking is that while in cold weather, during heat pump mode, the system could never actually meet the set point and thus never switch to gas.

do I need a 9000 tstat or fossis fuel kit.

Help please.

Thanks,

[ga-hvac-tech]

This forum has a "no DIY" rule. Us Pro's can loose our posting privildges for helping folks. If you are a pro, get your post count up and apply for pro status. If you are not a pro, I suggest you get a pro out to solve your issues.

[bradley wayne]

Hey GA Boy,
im not a diy. Im a tech with a problem.

[ga-hvac-tech]

You obviously have not read the rules of this forum, and I am probably old enough to be your father... son...:bump:

Follow the forum rules... get your post count up and apply for Pro membership... One of the Mods will be along soon to remind you of the rules.

[beenthere]

ga-hvac-tech is correct.

Get your post count up, and apply for pro membership. There is a wealth of info and help in the pro forums.

I'll throw you a hint. You probably got something set wrong that its not switching to gas furnace.

[bradley wayne]

Someone is going to have to explain to me what this forum is all about. I read questions like this all the time from others.

I ran this problem by 2 associates with 50 years of experiance between them and got two different answers so I thought I would throw it out on here for an explanation from someone.

Im completely confused. You cant ask diy questions and I cant ask questions from a problem I have encounterd on an install.

so what can I ask? confusing

[ga-hvac-tech]

You can apply for pro status. There are dozens of forums at this site which are available to pro's; including technical, refrigeration, commercial, chillers, business and marketing, etc...

The owners of the forum wrote the rules, we just follow them. This is a PRO forum site that allows non-pro members on a few of the forums. Get your post count up and apply for pro status.

[bradley wayne]

well I just read the rules and dont see how anything I ask is a problem? The problem is not on my house, its on a unit I installed.

[beenthere]

Once you have pro membership. You can ask technical questions in the Pro forums, that are not open to the general public.

To give technical answers in the open forums is giving DIY instructions to DIYers that would read the thread later.

Get your post count up to 15 and apply for pro membership.

Your 15 post do not need to be technical in nature.

An introduction post in the general forum will count.

[beenthere]

well I just read the rules and dont see how anything I ask is a problem? The problem is not on my house, its on a unit I installed.


Doesn't matter.
To answer it in the open forum. Leaves it as DIY advise for someone else that would have the same problem.

[wahoo]

Just as a note, if you gotta ask if you need a fossil fuel kit, you don't know enough to be charging someone else for your install of a dual fuel system. IMO anyway. :eek2:

[bradley wayne]

ok, that makes some sense to me.


But it seems like that does not leave a lot of room to discuss much of anything in this forum. Ill get my post count up and get in there.

Thanks,

[ga-hvac-tech]

You probably have the wrong T-stat... go to the Honeywell site and do some reading... :rules:

You see, we are not a bunch of mean ogers... we just have rules to follow. When you get PRO status, you will be amazed at what is available here!!! :eek2:

[bradley wayne]

oooh I see mr. wahoo, You cant ask dyi questions or technical questions but its ok to give smart a%# responses. nice.

This is the first dual fuel unit i have installed. and let me say this again, now that I have more time to think about it. I have actually ask 3 associates with about 70 years between them and ended up coming on here to try to get the the answer.

Maybe the mods need to visit you, I think the rules say to avoid sassy little remarks like yours.

[bradley wayne]

I went on the honeywell site last night and it locked up my computer 3 straight times. Have not tried to get back on. Googled about 25 articles and found nothing. I will try Honey site again tomorrow.
Thanks for the help

[ga-hvac-tech]

Just a side note... you now have 15 posts... that is the requirement to apply for pro status. The sooner you apply, the sooner you can get on the tech forum and ask all kinds of questions...

Look in my profile and send me an Email.

[bradley wayne]

Thanks GA,
I just went on my profile and noticed that.

[JJDH]

Just as a note, if you gotta ask if you need a fossil fuel kit, you don't know enough to be charging someone else for your install of a dual fuel system. IMO anyway. :eek2:x2:beat::cliff: NO disrespect intended

[pacnw]

oooh I see mr. wahoo, You cant ask dyi questions or technical questions but its ok to give smart a%# responses. nice.

This is the first dual fuel unit i have installed. and let me say this again, now that I have more time to think about it. I have actually ask 3 associates with about 70 years between them and ended up coming on here to try to get the the answer.just because they have been doing this for so long does not mean they know how to do it correctly or how new things operate!

Maybe the mods need to visit you, I think the rules say to avoid sassy little remarks like yours.
.

[Robert77]

Thanks for the info on pro-membership. Great site and lots of exciting info too discover.

[jeremyw]

first post. got to get my count up to apply for pro status. :bump:
I just like to read up and study on different things. Don't like makeing crap posts to get post count up to apply for pro account. :nopity:

[beenthere]

Make an introductory post i n the General forum. It will count as 1 of your 15 post.

You can also make a separate post about the type of equipment you usually work on.

Get that post count up and app in. So you can get pro membership before you need technical help.
Otherwise, you could end up frustrated when you can't get the help your asking for.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Make an introductory post i n the General forum. It will count as 1 of your 15 post.

You can also make a separate post about the type of equipment you usually work on.

Get that post count up and app in. So you can get pro membership before you need technical help.
Otherwise, you could end up frustrated when you can't get the help your asking for.

WISE advise!

Even some 'meaningless' posts will be forgotten in a few weeks...

[jeremyw]

thank you for the advice guys.

One tip if you have not done one before is if bidding a job on setting up a dual fuel make sure to check if system is zoned and if it has a zone board. you will need a dual fuel compatible zone board and need to make sure zone board is compatible with the dampers you have.
First dual fuel setup I did the guy had a oil burner and the house was zoned. I bid him out for the heatpump and a t stat to run the dual fuel setup, but didn't realize it was zoned and the zone board he had was not dual fuel compatible. :oops:
I am not a duel fuel expert, but would like to learn more. I have installed a few dual fuel setups for people that currently had a fairly new propane or oil burner furnace and removed the a/c and installed a heat pump. Saves alot of money when the heat pump is runing vs the oil burner or propane. plus usually I am replaceing a 10 seer a/c with a 13 seer and up heatpump so they will be saveing money in the summer also.

two posts..... :)

[jerryd_2008]

Just installed a dual fuel unit and I cannot get the unit to swith while running.
On a call for heat it picks heat pump or Gas correctly.

But,
while the system is running and the temp goes above or below the balance point the system will not switch. I am using an 8000 tstat.

I tested this by putting the sensor in ice or pulling it out of ice.

I have ask around and am getting mixed opinions on this.

what does it take to make the unit switch while running. My thinking is that while in cold weather, during heat pump mode, the system could never actually meet the set point and thus never switch to gas.

do I need a 9000 tstat or fossis fuel kit.

Help please.

Thanks,

Just a HO, but I have another thread on my DFHP failing to switch to furnace. See "DFHP Switch to Furnace?". Is this a York Affinity HP/furnace?

I have not had the "solution" installed yet but the distributor says a York engineer told him that there are a fair number (7-8?) of HP control board rev's and I have the wrong one, even though it has been replaced once already. A new control board is being sent.

Also, I am told 3rd hand, my contractor from his distributor from York, that the operating instructions documentation does not properly describe the York HP operations sequence. I asked the contractor for an updated set of doc.

[bradley wayne]

Yes it was a York

I spoke with Honeywell yesterday.

They actually recommended the 8000 for Dual fuel. The 9000 will work as well but when I ask they recommended the 8000. One of our local distributers here does not carry the 9000 and says the 8000 is what most everyone is using

I dont want to say to much and get in trouble but I will touch on what they told me. Apparently I'm about the 100th person to call in with the problem of having put my sensor in a bucket of ice thus trying to make it switch from HP to gas on the fly. "I was not waiting long enough". The 8000 monitors the time and it is quite a bit more than I was waiting. Im scared to say anymore and realize I need to have this in the pro forum.

The 9000 works on a different logic, "drouping", which I guess is falling temps away from the set point. They advertise "advanced DF control on the 9000" maybe that is what they are talking about.

Either way, It looks like they would but this sequeanc/logic in the installation manual so we know what is suppose to happen.

[jerryd_2008]

Yes it was a York

I spoke with Honeywell yesterday.

They actually recommended the 8000 for Dual fuel. The 9000 will work as well but when I ask they recommended the 8000. One of our local distributers here does not carry the 9000 and says the 8000 is what most everyone is using

I dont want to say to much and get in trouble but I will touch on what they told me. Apparently I'm about the 100th person to call in with the problem of having put my sensor in a bucket of ice thus trying to make it switch from HP to gas on the fly. "I was not waiting long enough". The 8000 monitors the time and it is quite a bit more than I was waiting. Im scared to say anymore and realize I need to have this in the pro forum.

The 9000 works on a different logic, "drouping", which I guess is falling temps away from the set point. They advertise "advanced DF control on the 9000" maybe that is what they are talking about.

Either way, It looks like they would but this sequeanc/logic in the installation manual so we know what is suppose to happen.

Again, Bradley, I am a HO, so I don't want to take this to a DIY or pro discussion. Just trying to understand what you are experiencing versus what I am.

It sounds like your (perceived?) issue is with the tstat, correct? I have a pure York Affinity DFHP with larger 3rd party coil controlled by a Honeywell VisionPro IAQ tstat, model YTH9421C1002. This is the model with 3 wires from tstat to a remote equipment interface. I do NOT have an external temperature sensor wired to my tstat. The HP is sensing outdoor temp and controlling all HP and furnace operation except when I put the tstat on emergency heat which I have been doing a lot this winter. I would concur that Honeywell does a poor job of describing the theory of operations for their tstat. I'm finding that York doesn't do much better.

So, my problem is NOT with the tstat but with the HP control of the furnace switch below low temperature cut out and maybe to a lessor extent between that temp and the balance point.

If your issue is related to the HP control, I would appreciate it if you could review the thread that I mentioned and possibly add any insights that you may have.

Thank you.

[bradley wayne]

Jerry,
My problem was with the stat, or my lack of knowledge with it. Sounds like you need to get a pro to look at what you have. I dont want to get in trouble by trying to solve your problem on here. Im going to apply for pro membership and stay in that forum so I dont have to worry about what I say and upseting others. good luck with your issue.

Brad

[ga-hvac-tech]

Again, Bradley, I am a HO, so I don't want to take this to a DIY or pro discussion. Just trying to understand what you are experiencing versus what I am.

It sounds like your (perceived?) issue is with the tstat, correct? I have a pure York Affinity DFHP with larger 3rd party coil controlled by a Honeywell VisionPro IAQ tstat, model YTH9421C1002. This is the model with 3 wires from tstat to a remote equipment interface. I do NOT have an external temperature sensor wired to my tstat. The HP is sensing outdoor temp and controlling all HP and furnace operation except when I put the tstat on emergency heat which I have been doing a lot this winter. I would concur that Honeywell does a poor job of describing the theory of operations for their tstat. I'm finding that York doesn't do much better.

So, my problem is NOT with the tstat but with the HP control of the furnace switch below low temperature cut out and maybe to a lessor extent between that temp and the balance point.

If your issue is related to the HP control, I would appreciate it if you could review the thread that I mentioned and possibly add any insights that you may have.

Thank you.

If the HoneyWell 9000 is the DF controller, it needs an outdoor temp sensor. I am not familiar with the York Affinity system, so I could not say if it is indeed the T-stat or part of the Affinity system... Someone that understands the York system will come along...

[jerryd_2008]

If the HoneyWell 9000 is the DF controller, it needs an outdoor temp sensor. I am not familiar with the York Affinity system, so I could not say if it is indeed the T-stat or part of the Affinity system... Someone that understands the York system will come along...

Thanks, ga-hvac-tech. I have another thread mentioned previously covering this issue and don't want to high jack this one. I just thought that Bradley might have some insights.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Thanks, ga-hvac-tech. I have another thread mentioned previously covering this issue and don't want to high jack this one. I just thought that Bradley might have some insights.

I must have missed the other thread... could you post a link to a page of that thread? THX!

[beenthere]

The 9000 works on a different logic, "drouping", which I guess is falling temps away from the set point. They advertise "advanced DF control on the 9000" maybe that is what they are talking about.

Either way, It looks like they would but this sequeanc/logic in the installation manual so we know what is suppose to happen.

You can set it up to use droop.
But, it can do it without the droop if you want.

Get 9000 series and you will never use a 8000 series for DF control again.

[ga-hvac-tech]

You can set it up to use droop.
But, it can do it without the droop if you want.

Get 9000 series and you will never use a 8000 series for DF control again.

Absolutely agree with this!

I like to use the 9000 with a 2 stage furnace. One gets 2 heat, 2 cool (well, second cool is de-hum, which is well worth it). And the DF controller is a bonus if one chooses to change that condenser to a HP. When I do a DF, I use an outdoor and DATS sensors to round out the system. Makes for a really NICE system.

[Airmechanical]

When I do a DF, I use an outdoor and DATS sensors to round out the system.

on an 8000 or IAQ t-stat

in dual fuel application we know that s1 and s2 terminals are being used by the o.d. sensor

in your dual sensor example, after using s1 and s2 for DF control, what are you terminating your DAT sensor up to



.

[bradley wayne]

That is exactly what I was wanting to know. I was guessing that the 9000 must have some more slots on it, I have not used one yet.

[ga-hvac-tech]

The 9000 has a place for the DATS sensor. It is really a whole house climate system... hence the nickname IAQ...

You can find tech information at this link:

http://customer.honeywell.com/honeywell/ProductInfo.aspx/TH9421C1004

[jerryd_2008]

I must have missed the other thread... could you post a link to a page of that thread? THX!

Thread entitled "DFHP Switch to Furnace?" at:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=430052&page=5

[NATEPAT2]

first post... im going pro soon just starting post:patriot:

[NATEPAT2]

there should be an option of hp lock out (which i usually set at 25-30 degrees) u shouldnt have to turn on e-heat with dual fuel and a vision pro t-stat. 8000 and 9000 are similiar but iaq is handy if you dont have enough wires and if u wish to sense outdoor temp remotley and you can control humidifier with iaq (9000)

[crab]

most split dual fuel units also use a defrost switch in the id coil area.. if this is your first install is it there? and does your unit require it. like i said most do need them.. not going into y but lets just say the comp likes it to be in there :rules: