Energy Audits-Any homeowners using them?

[tipsrfine]

I'd appreciate hearing from homeowners who have had energy audits performed in their homes. Take my state Missouri for example; do you feel it's worth the cost if the cost of the audit qualifies as a write-off on your taxes?

[Kevin O'Neill]

Energy audits should be used if you feel you have problems with your home. If the tax writeoff is the only incentive, then you don't need one.

[Pete3]

IMO,energy audits are 90% common sense repairs & weatherization tips you can learn to do on places like this or other web sites. Do a search.

[tipsrfine]

IMO,energy audits are 90% common sense repairs & weatherization tips you can learn to do on places like this or other web sites. Do a search.

In Missouri there are state incentives -tax write offs-in addition to the federal incentives, but you have to have the energy audit performed first by a certified energy auditor, and then have the recommended work done to qualify. The cost of the audit is also tax deductible.

I guess what I'm asking how many think having this audit performed first is worth the effort? In my state I believe the extra incentive adds up to $3,000.00 over two years in the form of a tax deduction. Not a credit.

[udarrell]

In Missouri there are state incentives -tax write offs-in addition to the federal incentives, but you have to have the energy audit performed first by a certified energy auditor, and then have the recommended work done to qualify. The cost of the audit is also tax deductible.

I guess what I'm asking how many think having this audit performed first is worth the effort? In my state I believe the extra incentive adds up to $3,000.00 over two years in the form of a tax deduction. Not a credit.- HOMESTAR Energy Efficiency Rebate Program
A paragraph from the new proposed Federal Home Energy Efficiency Program:


Homeowners that choose the SilverStar path would be eligible for up to a total of $3,000 in combined rebates for installing high efficiency—new insulation, water heaters, windows, doors, roofing and roofing materials, and duct sealing. Only the most energy efficient equipment and/or materials would qualify. And homeowners would have to hire certified installers to perform the work. - HOMESTAR Energy Efficiency Rebate Program
Homestar Released: http://www.acca.org/blog.php?id=529

Certified installers to perform the work could slow the program down; so find out what it takes, - & get certified ASAP...


The GoldStar rebate path would require an energy audit followed by a retrofit designed to achieve at least a 20 percent energy savings. Homeowners that achieve a higher measure of energy savings would be eligible for more of a rebate. - HOMESTAR Energy Efficiency Rebate Program

If passed it has potential to create work... - Darrell

[DanW13]

Did you call your local utility, some if not a good majority of them provide free or lost cost energy audit for HO's. SO if you feel the need to have one done I would do everything as far as airsealing your home and then have a blower door test done, but I would ask to see if after they provide the initial test and give you a work sheet on what needs to be done if they come back a second time to see how the improvements performed.

[Genteq]

For those interested in the full text of the Homestar program:
http://energy.senate.gov/public/_files/END10173.pdf

Note that the Silver Star program requires ACCA QI. It's an additional $1000 for furnaces (92 AFUE and above for natural gas, oil furnace 86 AFUE with an ECM motor). This program is actually a rebate (with limited funds).

[leander311]

IMO,energy audits are 90% common sense repairs & weatherization tips you can learn to do on places like this or other web sites. Do a search.

+1, though sadly few homeowners actually have this. As a mechanical engineer, I still learned the hard way after my first home purchase. It had all the typical "flip" problems, shiny surface, problematic below. Now after several years working in facilities (and owning a home!), I feel I'm much more prepared for my next home.

Anyhow, I do feel there is some major benefit to a blower door and duct leakage test, that even the best common sense may not otherwise provide. In Austin, the city provides this service through several local contractors for a heavily-subsidized price of $50. Excellent value.

[pstu]

I think much depends on the quality of the people doing the audit. I was the victim of one which gave me false info about my duct leakage. Were they sloppy or crooked? Hardly matters, they had lined up their wrong readings so as to 1) sell me duct sealing on that false claim I had 40% leakage, and 2) look like stars when the "after" test came up with a lower number. It's not inherently wrong to be selling services along with the audit, but it pulls a less scrupulous business person toward corruption as a profit source.

Standard Renewable Energy, they came recommended via a flyer in a mailing from Green Mountain Energy. They were utterly indifferent toward my trying to talk logically about the problems I saw, only sprang into action when I wrote GME their partners were acting unscrupulously. I came *this* close to filing a BBB complaint. SRE sells some vastly different products and I have no knowledge that the other branches of the company are crooked. But I am convinced the Houston office is at minimum, criminally negligent.

At least when a company comes recommended by a utility, you have some leverage in that bad behavior reflects badly on the utility too. I like the general idea of testing a house, but the cost is pretty up there if the other guy is going to survive in business honestly.

Best of luck -- Pstu

[tipsrfine]

I think much depends on the quality of the people doing the audit. I was the victim of one which gave me false info about my duct leakage. Were they sloppy or crooked? Hardly matters, they had lined up their wrong readings so as to 1) sell me duct sealing on that false claim I had 40% leakage, and 2) look like stars when the "after" test came up with a lower number. It's not inherently wrong to be selling services along with the audit, but it pulls a less scrupulous business person toward corruption as a profit source.

Standard Renewable Energy, they came recommended via a flyer in a mailing from Green Mountain Energy. They were utterly indifferent toward my trying to talk logically about the problems I saw, only sprang into action when I wrote GME their partners were acting unscrupulously. I came *this* close to filing a BBB complaint. SRE sells some vastly different products and I have no knowledge that the other branches of the company are crooked. But I am convinced the Houston office is at minimum, criminally negligent.

At least when a company comes recommended by a utility, you have some leverage in that bad behavior reflects badly on the utility too. I like the general idea of testing a house, but the cost is pretty up there if the other guy is going to survive in business honestly.

Best of luck -- Pstu

How long & how many times are you going to tell that story? You had one bad experience with one company and you want to keep defecating on every thread involving energy audits and doing a chicken little routine for all the other homeowners on this site about "crooked" companies. You turned a mistake into a crime. The reality is that you won't see the real crooks comming and you wouldn't know you were getting ripped off if they did it right in front of your eyes-which they probably will.
How about you wit 'til you see a pattern, one that you have evidence to in support, before you put out this garbage again?

[pstu]

I'd appreciate hearing from homeowners who have had energy audits performed in their homes.
Read your own words in post #1 and tell me you are not being hypocritical. If you wanted to hear good news only you should have said so.

Regards -- Pstu

[Genteq]

For those interested in the full text of the Homestar program:
http://energy.senate.gov/public/_files/END10173.pdf

Note that the Silver Star program requires ACCA QI. It's an additional $1000 for furnaces (92 AFUE and above for natural gas, oil furnace 86 AFUE with an ECM motor). This program is actually a rebate (with limited funds).

After reading the bill some more, it is not additive. So, if you take the $1000, then you will need to reduce the tax credit down to $500. However, with a total of $3000 available, you can get another $2000 on another qualifiying product (heat pump, windows, doors, etc.).

Also, Silver Star program requires the qualified contractor to install the new units using the ACCA QI method.

[Garyl53]

I am more interested in an energy audit AFTER I have done everything I can do as a homeowner to address obvious energy reduction items. After caulking, foaming, blocking and insulating the obvious issues I see the investment in an energy audit very worthwhile to see what if any areas have been missed or improvements that can be made that are beyond basic homeowner capability.
Thanks

[mbarson]

I believe an energy audit or more preferably the RESNET/ BPI Comprehensive Home Energy Audit is a very valuable tool for home owners. I am biased being I do a verity of audits. It is wise to have an audit before you begin any home improvement project. This way you will benchmark were you are at the start and how effective the energy improvements are after completing them.

There is more to improving the efficiency of the home than random caulk and add insulation. You need to be concerned with what affect changes to the home may have on things like ventilation rates, back drafting appliances, humidity levels and others.

A quality audit will provide heat load calcs for equipment sizing. Payback analysis for improvements to be considered and a general guide for what order things should be done. Performance testing of furnace and AC. Carbon monoxide tests. A blower door should always be done and IR imaging will show weak areas in the building shell.

There are many "lite" audits just to get a sales person in the door. I would say you get what you pay for. If the home owner sees no valve in the time to do a quality audit and be willing to pay the auditor accordingly then I believe that they are not interested in making their home better. I have other thoughts but I have to go.

I anyone is interested this is some good reading.
http://www.energycircle.com/blog/category/peggy-in-toronto

[jerryd_2008]

Did you call your local utility, some if not a good majority of them provide free or lost (low) cost energy audit for HO's. SO if you feel the need to have one done I would do everything as far as airsealing your home and then have a blower door test done, but I would ask to see if after they provide the initial test and give you a work sheet on what needs to be done if they come back a second time to see how the improvements performed.

Good suggestion. I had my Arkansas electric co-op (Ozark Electric) do a blower door, infrared camera scan and Manual J calc for about $100. During the infrared scan I followed with my digital camera and photographed any problem areas - saves taking detailed notes and pinpoints the problem exactly. They said that If I proved that I corrected any problems they would refund some of the cost. Never pursued because I just wanted to know the energy status of a house that I did not build before I got proposals for a new DFHP.

Maybe you should ask if your co-op has this program and if it qualifies you for the additional rebates/credits you mentioned.

[badtlc]

I don't think energy audits are worthwhile, but to ditto previous comments I think getting the house envelope checked (IR Scan, blower door test, insulation performance check) along with getting everything HVAC related checked (static pressures, duct leakage, etc.) is a great idea for a majority of home owners out there.

I hate not knowing what condition my house is in because I didn't build it nor was around when it was built. I'm constantly paranoid I'm missing places to save money and improve the performance of my home.

[tipsrfine]

I don't think energy audits are worthwhile, but to ditto previous comments I think getting the house envelope checked (IR Scan, blower door test, insulation performance check) along with getting everything HVAC related checked (static pressures, duct leakage, etc.) is a great idea for a majority of home owners out there.

I hate not knowing what condition my house is in because I didn't build it nor was around when it was built. I'm constantly paranoid I'm missing places to save money and improve the performance of my home.

I believe everything you listed in your first paragraph that you say you like is exactly what an energy audit does, which is what you say you don't think is worthwhile.

[jerryd_2008]

I don't think energy audits are worthwhile, but to ditto previous comments I think getting the house envelope checked ...

I hate not knowing what condition my house is in because I didn't build it nor was around when it was built. ...

Don't know what you just said. Maybe your definition of energy audit and others aren't the same. To me, at least, a blower door and infrared scan qualify as an energy audit.

I'm trying to read between the lines on your comments on older houses that maybe we did not build. It is indeed difficult and expensive to overcome the lack of insulation in walls or other hard to get at situations. But there are many things that aren't that expensive and can even be done by the HO. Each house is different. Each HO's finances and abilities are too. But most of us can pick the low hanging fruit and significantly improve these houses (and maybe houses we built too) and lower energy costs.

PS: Appears that my post and that of tipsrfine passed in the dark.

[badtlc]

At least in my area, "energy audits" also include full analysis of all your utility bills including elec, gas, water, etc. They also include an appliance check where they check the energy star listing and ratings for all your appliances. Another facet is they will go around and check all plug loads in the house.

In the end, they take all that information to form a recommendation of what appliances to update, where you have lots of parasitic power drain, how your utilities compare to others, etc. All that stuff a competent homeowner should be able to do themselves.

On top of that, typically in my area an energy audit does not do a full commissioning of the hvac system and duct work. They will look at the HVAC system and tell you what it was originally rated for but nothing about its current state of operation. Most charge extra for that if they do it at all. There are some auditors in my area that charge extra for IR scan and blower door test.

[jerryd_2008]

At least in my area, "energy audits" also include full analysis of all your utility bills including elec, gas, water, etc. They also include an appliance check where they check the energy star listing and ratings for all your appliances. Another facet is they will go around and check all plug loads in the house.

Oh, you are talking about those $500+ "energy audits". I just wish the local utility companies would produce statistics like: for 1,2,3, etc. people (would require HO input) in an all-electric, mixed NG/electric, etc. in a 1-story, 2-story, a BR apartment, etc. with and without a pool the average electric/NG/propane bill in this area month-by-month is .... and the average baseline utility cost for the collar months is .... Now I could see if I was way out of line.


In the end, they take all that information to form a recommendation of what appliances to update, where you have lots of parasitic power drain, how your utilities compare to others, etc. All that stuff a competent homeowner should be able to do themselves.

I can see where doing an appliance by appliance and outlet by outlet analysis could be time consuming and therefore expensive. Why don't they just home in on the major energy uses like HWH and refrigerator. After hearing story after story of people with $300/month utility bills, does anybody really care if the little light on you TV set top box and all of those other little lights cost $25/year?


On top of that, typically in my area an energy audit does not do a full commissioning of the hvac system and duct work. They will look at the HVAC system and tell you what it was originally rated for but nothing about its current state of operation. Most charge extra for that if they do it at all. There are some auditors in my area that charge extra for IR scan and blower door test.

Badtlc, I think the mismatch is that this forum is concentrated on HVAC and its costs. Any energy audit that doesn't emphasize this would seem inappropriate. To charge extra for it would be out of line and probably indicate that the auditor doesn't have the expertise that the HO wants. IMO to charge extra for a blower door and/or infrared scan seems like the auditor is neglecting the most revealing energy deficiencies in the house.

[badtlc]

Badtlc, I think the mismatch is that this forum is concentrated on HVAC and its costs. Any energy audit that doesn't emphasize this would seem inappropriate. To charge extra for it would be out of line and probably indicate that the auditor doesn't have the expertise that the HO wants. IMO to charge extra for a blower door and/or infrared scan seems like the auditor is neglecting the most revealing energy deficiencies in the house.

I agree. That is why I haven't found it worthwhile yet. I'm still looking for a contractor/auditor/whatever what will do a full envelope (insulation, infiltration, etc) and HVAC efficiency audit/commissioning. I don't want to pay for all the extraneous stuff.

I got a list of energy auditorsfrom the power company but haven't gotten too far through it other than checking websites. From first glance, none of them look to be competent enough to to a thorough HVAC and ductwork check. Everyone seems to stop at blower door and IR scan. I wouldn't mind just doing that, too, but the ones I have asked so far still want $400-500 just for that. My income eliminates me from the cheap/free power company sponsored audits.

[jerryd_2008]

... That is why I haven't found it worthwhile yet. I'm still looking for a contractor/auditor/whatever what will do a full envelope (insulation, infiltration, etc) and HVAC efficiency audit/commissioning. I don't want to pay for all the extraneous stuff.

Doesn't the blower door and infrared scan pretty much cover infiltration? If you have leaky ducts, maybe a separate test is required.

I don't understand the "efficiency" audit. The model numbers on the cooling and heating units should give you a pretty good idea of the design efficiencies. As to the actual efficiencies, is that really worth the trouble or even reliable and cost-effective?


... My income eliminates me from the cheap/free power company sponsored audits.

Provided the "free" audit" is worth anything at all which mine definitely was, will they let you pay for it? I talked my way into my $100-ish audit even though my electric usage was far below the amount they used as the cut off.

You should be able to assess the attic insulation from either utility, code or other recommendations for your specific area. Rectifying that could be as easy and cost-effective as 6-8" of cellulose over the top of existing, filling in any depressions to the common depth. Once you know bad infiltration problems (really bad windows excepted), the solution could be a few tubes of caulk and cans of foam away.

Am I missing something in your desired outcomes?

[tipsrfine]

Badtlc, I think the mismatch is that this forum is concentrated on HVAC and its costs. Any energy audit that doesn't emphasize this would seem inappropriate. To charge extra for it would be out of line and probably indicate that the auditor doesn't have the expertise that the HO wants. IMO to charge extra for a blower door and/or infrared scan seems like the auditor is neglecting the most revealing energy deficiencies in the house.

If you go to the BPI website you will see there are separate certifications an auditor can obtain.Partial list is Building analyst, Heatpump & ac, heating etc... . Each requires separate training & testing & yes, each one cost more money for an auditor to obtain. This is why they are charged separate & in addition to the basic energy audit-at least for now. Perhaps as more people become trained & certified there will be more supply of auditors & they probably will be forced to become more competitive with each other on charges & offer more for less.

[badtlc]

I don't understand the "efficiency" audit. The model numbers on the cooling and heating units should give you a pretty good idea of the design efficiencies. As to the actual efficiencies, is that really worth the trouble or even reliable and cost-effective?


Duct efficiency, combustion efficiency, pressure drop for the system, all those go into system efficiencies. I dont need them to tell me what SEER or EER i'm running at. There are lots of factors that need to be considered when trying to judge the efficiency or overall operation of a home.

[udarrell]

Tipsrfine: If you go to the BPI website you will see there are separate certifications an auditor can obtain.Partial list is Building analyst, Heatpump & ac, heating etc... . Each requires separate training & testing & yes, each one cost more money for an auditor to obtain. This is why they are charged separate & in addition to the basic energy audit-at least for now. Perhaps as more people become trained & certified there will be more supply of auditors & they probably will be forced to become more competitive with each other on charges & offer more for less.

IMO, everyone in the HVAC service industry ought to strive to get certification for Building & Duct System analyst, Heat Pump, A/C & Heating Certification.

We should be better qualified to "analyze duct system, airflow, & equipment operating performance" than those not working in our field.

This should be where the best future service opportunities will be located... - Darrell

[tipsrfine]

IMO, everyone in the HVAC service industry ought to strive to get certification for Building & Duct System analyst, Heat Pump, A/C & Heating Certification.

We should be better qualified to "analyze duct system, airflow, & equipment operating performance" than those not working in our field.

This should be where the best future service opportunities will be located... - Darrell

I agree and that is where I am heading-as soon as I squeeze some money out of rocks for the fees. Been un-employed for a while. I'm hoping that my 2 year degree+5 years in the field along with certification in exactly what you mention will be a start of a successfull new career.

[kwilcox]

IMO

Let's get HomeStar passed folks. Call/write your congressmen/reps. It's good for me the consumer and for you the installers/contractors as well.

I'm working on windows/insulation upgrades now but I can't even rent an IR camera to check for other areas b/c they are weekly only & also require a professional to interpret. I'd do an energy audit in a second if there was the prospect of a 3K rebate to do the work I know needs doing.

[stvc]

I agree and that is where I am heading-as soon as I squeeze some money out of rocks for the fees. Been un-employed for a while. I'm hoping that my 2 year degree+5 years in the field along with certification in exactly what you mention will be a start of a successfull new career.

You will have some challenges making a career out of it, at least at this point in time.

First, between training, blower door and duct blaster you are looking at 10K plus.

Second, it is hard to convince someone that even $400 for your 8hrs time and investment is worth it to them. Problem is there are no guarantees what it will save them, even though it is more than likely many times the investment.

Third, utility Co's control allot of the money for incentives, so you may have to play ball with them [contract coordinator] if you want steady work. Problem is they pay low, slow and own you.

Not trying to rain on your idea because I truly believe in it, just a tough business plan right now.

[udarrell]

Every HVAC contractor should already be doing the lions share of reducing the largest home energy waste factors.

We don't have to go whole hog to reduce a lot of energy waste & high utility bills.

Very few homes have properly sealed & sized duct systems with adequate airflow for the tonnage of cooling in use; also most units are quite oversized.

Coils & blower wheels need cleaning, etc., air infiltration doesn't cost much to reduce...

On the page, Click the arrow to play the Streaming Public Radio Program on energy auditing & testing actual HVAC performance...

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kuni/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1510248&sectionID=4446

Could list a lot more ways..., will leave it to the rest of you...

I have several easy methods on my pages to test the BTUH cooling performance of equipment; there is also software on-line to use. - Darrell

[jerryd_2008]

...

On the page, Click the arrow to play the Streaming Public Radio Program on energy auditing & testing actual HVAC performance...

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kuni/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1510248&sectionID=4446

Could list a lot more ways..., will leave it to the rest of you...
...

Darrell, your link, although a full radio show, was extremely helpful and on the topic of home energy auditing. I have seen some of your previous posts that provide HO education. One of my "disappointments" with this forum is the rarity of HO education. You seem to be right on target for my education desire, and maybe that of other HO's.

Thank you, Darrell.

[udarrell]

jerryd_2008; My web pages are mainly for Techs & many so-called techs... .:oops:
However:
As the user & potential customers' are educated regarding the under-performance of their homes & their heating & cooling systems, when done right & in fairness, the benefits will go to both the HVAC contractors & the consumers.

There is a steep limit to what users' can do, & they won't read & try to do the tons of things I talk about, but many will be motivated to call to find out why their system doesn't seem to be performing up to par, or is causing too high a utility bill.

IMO, that radio program wasn't a very professional performance..., ha.

There are also HVAC Contractors listed elsewhere that do equipment performance Ratings'.
National Energy Rater's Association:
http://www.energyraters.org/members.htm

Here is a nationwide list of an alliance of some of the state "Energy Raters."
Click on the printed state name or scroll down the list, as you don't always get the list - other ways.
http://www.ratingsalliance.org/raters.htm

A list of the Residential energy Services Network (RESNET) A lot of other information!:
http://www.natresnet.org/directory/directory.aspx?MemberTypeID=1

- Darrell

[croft1972]

Utility Company is pushing Energy Audits here. They are reimbursting the HO for the $125 Audit. The audit is done by a private company. Kicker is that if you had your heating system replaced this past year, they will give you a second Rebate check for $900. Making the total either $1400 or $1300. Depending if you have a variable speed blower. The company gives you a list of what should be done and how much they would charge you to have them done. Of course you dont need to have them do it. Just get your report. Then get your other rebate check. Not bad.

[jerryd_2008]

Utility Company is pushing Energy Audits here. They are reimbursting the HO for the $125 Audit. The audit is done by a private company. Kicker is that if you had your heating system replaced this past year, they will give you a second Rebate check for $900. Making the total either $1400 or $1300. Depending if you have a variable speed blower. The company gives you a list of what should be done and how much they would charge you to have them done. Of course you dont need to have them do it. Just get your report. Then get your other rebate check. Not bad.

That's about what I paid my electric co-op when their staff did my blower door, infrared scan and Manual J. They would have refunded some of the cost if you "proved" to them that you made improvements. I never pursued the refund. Just wanted an analysis of the energy efficiency of my house before updating the HVAC.

I think I may have asked this before, but: "How high are taxes and/or utility rates in NJ?":eek2: