Hybrid system with heat pump for my Minnesota home?

[roegs]

I've had 4 estimates for replacement furnace and AC for my 3500 sq ft two story home. All have proposed high effiency furnaces. Three of them proposed the standard outside AC system, but one is proposing a Bryant Evolution system that uses an heat pump vs. the standard outside compressor. In this case I'd be purchasing a Bryant 355 furnace along with a Preferred series heat pump. The way I understand it, the heat pump operates whenever the outside temp is above 30 degrees. To be honest, I never considered a heat pump. The claim is that the additional money for the heat pump easily pays for itself in 6 years, and will help lower my overall heating costs while adding life to the furnace. The single stage heat pump adds about $ to the overall system cost. My priorities in a new system are:

1. Comfort.
2. Reliability (once installed, I'd prefer not to see the contractor again for many years)
3. Cost

I'm somewhat old school, and shy away from new technology due to simple maintenance and long life. The salesman seems very knowledgable and is a firm believer in hybrid systems. Is this a common type of installation, and are there any concerns I should have? He did mention that the outdoor unit can be a little noisy, but it only happens when the unit thaws to melt snow away.

[dash]

The Evolution is a slick system,we sell the Carrier version,and everyone loves them,installers , techs, and customers!

[roegs]

The Evolution is a slick system,we sell the Carrier version,and everyone loves them,installers , techs, and customers!

Dash...thanks for the note. Are you referring to the Evolution system as a whole, or specifically the hybrid system?

[amd]

Where are you located?

How much of the winter is spent above 30f?

Electric/gas rates?

[roegs]

I live in the Minneapolis area. Here is a chart of average high and low temps for each month. Looks like I’d get use from the HP for the months of Oct, Nov, Mar, and Apr.


http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USMN0503

[tigerdunes]

roegs

what is your electric rate? does your electric utility offer any special rate incentive for heat pumps? might be worth a tel phone call.

for your area/climate, you would use heat pump primarily in shoulder mths spring and fall, probably very little in winter mths.

IMO

[beavercreekhc]

i've installed the Bryant 355 CAV and the preffered series heat pumps here in iowa and the heat pump i know will run down to a minus 29 degrees. the heat output of course isn't as great as it would be at 30 but still ran a very good split

[heaterman]

Check the local utility rates and any offers for discount and or rebates. Heat pumps have made great strides in the last 5-10 years. Used to be we stayed far away from them but the last 5 years we have been selling a lot of them. They give you some control over your utility bills by being able to use what ever is more economical. Since switch over is automatic the HP will run anytime the temp is above the tip point so it's actual run time may be greater than what you would expect by looking at temperature charts for your area. Sounds like the contractor who is offering the option is up on the newer trends in HVAC systems. :)

[Todd S 2]

Heat pumps are less valueable in the northern regions. That said, Carrier/Bryant has a program that will give you (a side by side comparision) of the operating costs of up to 4 differant systems. Then you can intelligently make the right decision for you. Heat pumps have a set point were they are to shut off. This is normally around 32 degrees. That's 32 degrees above zero!

[heaterman]

Heat pumps can and do operate well below 32 degrees, it comes down to the economic tip point. That means determining which fuel option is the least expensive.

[roegs]

Thanks much for the responses on this. I called our local electric utility (Xcel) this am, and other than standard rebates, they do not have any other programs for heat pumps. My rate is .05807 per KWH. If I go back and review my natural gas usage for the months where I would have used a heat pump, is there a way I can calculate what savings would have been with the hybrid system?

[Todd S 2]

Heat pumps can and do operate well below 32 degrees, it comes down to the economic tip point. That means determining which fuel option is the least expensive.

Why would you want to run it when its not efficient? That's the point, isn't it? Efficiency.

[Todd S 2]

Thanks much for the responses on this. I called our local electric utility (Xcel) this am, and other than standard rebates, they do not have any other programs for heat pumps. My rate is .05807 per KWH. If I go back and review my natural gas usage for the months where I would have used a heat pump, is there a way I can calculate what savings would have been with the hybrid system?

Call your Carrier/Bryant dealer. Give him the electric and gas costs and he can compare 4 differant (systems) operating costs for you in minutes.

[heaterman]

Why would you want to run it when its not efficient? That's the point, isn't it? Efficiency.

The point being that which one is most efficient is not static, it varies depending on electric costs compared to the other fuel source(s). When fuel oil was over $4 a gallon here, we were runninh our HPs in the hybrid systems well into the 20s. With fuel oil (and natural gas) being much cheaper this season, we have raised the cut off temp considerably. You just can't assign an arbitrary temperature for shutting off the HP in a hybrid system because it changes.

[Todd S 2]

The point being that which one is most efficient is not static, it varies depending on electric costs compared to the other fuel source(s). When fuel oil was over $4 a gallon here, we were runninh our HPs in the hybrid systems well into the 20s. With fuel oil (and natural gas) being much cheaper this season, we have raised the cut off temp considerably. You just can't assign an arbitrary temperature for shutting off the HP in a hybrid system because it changes.

I understand all of that. But H/Ps are rated (operating output) at 47 degress and 17 degrees. A 4 ton H/P will give approx. 47,000 btus of heat at 47 degrees. It'll lose about 40% at 17 degrees. I guess if electric costs justify it, it okay. If I was using oil or LP, I'd install a geothermal unit.

[heaterman]

Geothermal is efficient just not cost effective.

[Todd S 2]

Geothermal is efficient just not cost effective.

Each to their own. Just wait until Obama and Al Gore pass cap and trade and start to tax us on our carbon footprint. Katie bar the doors.

[leander311]

My first thought reading the title was, "What yahoo installs a HP in Minnesota?!"... Then I see your electric rate is ~5.8c/kWh. Outstanding!

[heaterman]

Each to their own. Just wait until Obama and Al Gore pass cap and trade and start to tax us on our carbon footprint. Katie bar the doors.

Just a tiny bit out there in left field, Todd. :patriot:

[Gimmered]

Thanks much for the responses on this. I called our local electric utility (Xcel) this am, and other than standard rebates, they do not have any other programs for heat pumps. My rate is .05807 per KWH. If I go back and review my natural gas usage for the months where I would have used a heat pump, is there a way I can calculate what savings would have been with the hybrid system?


I went to a dual fuel setup this summer. It was sized with heating in mind because I have been paying pretty outrageous gas bills since I bought this house 16 years ago. The heat pump will run down to about 5° then it will switch to the gas backup.

It gets a little tricky trying to say exactly how much savings you get from one year to the next when you switch from one fuel to another but I can say that for December and January I dropped my total BTU usage by 42%.

A heat pump COP will still be as much as 2.5 down to 10°. So it will still be 250% efficient at that temperature. My gas rate runs about $1.00 a therm delivered. 100 therms would be 10,000,000 BTU. This would equal 2930 KWh on electric heat. So $100 of gas would equal $176 of electric at 6¢ a KWh. But when you figure in the COP of the heat pump it would drop down to about $70. But that would be down to 10°. The COP at 40° would be over 4.0. So at the higher temps that same $100 of gas heat would cost you $44 with a heat pump.

Hope this helps.

[heaterman]

For the original poster. If you plug your numbers into the comparison equations on this site, you can compare costs. http://www.usinspect.com/resources-for-you/house-facts/basic-components-and-systems-home/heating-systems/fuel-cost-comparison

[Todd S 2]

Just a tiny bit out there in left field, Todd. :patriot:

I hope you're right. I think people are wising up to the hope and change BS.

[mark3rs]

As a homeowner that just replaced an old 1955 oil furnace with carrier infinity MVC and infinity 2 stage A/C in Wisconsin I can tell you that we went with furnace and a/c rather than heat pump for comfort. Heat pump heat "feels" cold, cannot be set back and is not as easy to set and forget. The three stage furnace almost feels like radiator heat (warm and even). Efficiency just did not outweigh comfort.

[heaterman]

Properly installed modern heat pumps do not blow air that feels cold. I have dozens of older customers that love their heat pumps and they are all from the "hot air" generation.

[Freezeking2000]

I have a 2 stage 16 seer heat pump in Connecticut. I have not used my oil in weeks. The unit cycles on the thermostat down to 30 degrees and cycles from high to low stage down to 20 degrees. They do not blow cold like the old heat pumps, at least the 2 stage variable speed models don't. I am also a carrier dealer and my customers love the Hybrid heat.

[mwjhvac]

Thanks much for the responses on this. I called our local electric utility (Xcel) this am, and other than standard rebates, they do not have any other programs for heat pumps. My rate is .05807 per KWH. If I go back and review my natural gas usage for the months where I would have used a heat pump, is there a way I can calculate what savings would have been with the hybrid system?

I don't think that is delivered price. I have done the #'s for my own home on xcel was not that great. Email me I have a Bryant savings calculator you can see. I sell a lot of hybrid systems on dual fuel rate .045 kw and nat gas .83 therm. But my xcel delivered price is.089 kw going up to .093. If you or on L.P. or Fuel oil there will be a nice savings.

[flange]

these so called hybrid systems are not really new, just some of the technology used is new, such as two stage compressors and ecm motors. we have seen these dual fuel systems for years. they do serve a purpose, and can save you money if set up properly, and you get enough use out of it. the average homeowner moves every seven years, are you one of them? if so, a six year payback isnt really worth it. if you are staying put, after six years, the savings go into your pocket. in many markets, there are incentivesto do this type of system, which makes it even better. in other markets, lowered electric costs for heatpump homes is available, but you already have good rates. price volatility can be one thing to look at here. where is fossil fuel headed? do you believe in the stabilitiy of your fuel costs, or like me, do you think they are going up when inflation hits. if so, additional savings can be seen and reduce payback. its kinda a crap shoot, and if you go that direction, you may see slight reduction in cooling efficiency, but no one wants to discuss that because it isnt significant in many folks eyes.

[DanW13]

Some made the remarks that they went straight AC over a HP because they wanted comfort vs. efficiency, if thats the case why not do the duel fuel which would provide 5 stages of heat if one were to go with a system that the Furnace had 3 stages and then a 2 stage HP how much more comfort would a guy want. With the efficiency of HP's today vs. what they were 10+ years ago and with the better blower motors, and mother bds in the furnace/air-handlers controlling the entire system with high tech stats you got the be all in a excellent system.

Unless your way up there in the great white North and that would be north of central Minnesota the HP probably wouldn't justified the expense but anywhere south of there it wouldn't be a bad choice IMO to go Hybrid system so long as your gonna live there for atleast 5 yrs to enjoy your new equipment and also to receive some payback form your purchase. Going with a 2 stage AC would be user dependent based on your usage of your AC, if your running the AC from the first day of summer to the last day then your going to profit form a 2 stage unit, otherwise a straight AC/HP would suffice. But theres always those hot summers every few years where you could conceivably have no choice in running the AC 24/7 in climates such as Wi, Min, MI and elsewhere. If you can afford it, and your gonna live there for atleast 5 yrs go for the gusto and get the INfinity Hyfrid system it will be money well spent !!!

[summit]

The Bryant Evolution furnace/heat pump system is the most popular heat pump that we install. You can adjust the airflow for "comfort" or "efficiency". It is such a seamless system my customers do not know what source of heat is running.