Contractors mean business.....

[i_got_ideas]

This is the right place if you are concerned about your future as an HVAC contractor.

Any ideas you may have to force a change of power from the factories to the contractors can be posted here.

[i_got_ideas]

I'll start.

Lobby the EPA to close the loophole that allows sale of split systems to unlicensed persons.

Lobby to enact a law that wholesalers can only sell to registered HVAC contractors. This registration based on state registration since not all states require mechanical licenses but they all do require a state registration.

Regulate huge companies such as Service Experts to avoid a monopoly scenario.

[topdog]

The hvac contractors need to get the EPA to get off their a$$es and enact laws that prohibit the sale of any refrigerant carrying equipment, other than self-contain, to the general public.
I can understand refrigerators,window acs,freezers should be available,but not a split system.

[AIR PRO]

packaged A/C or heat pump systems should also be on that list. We have to pull a permit here to install these, and they ALL get inspected for level,strapped down to concrete slab,duct sealing ,etc. Why should a HO or anyone else be able to buy and install these units without paying the dues as a licensed contractor?

[i_got_ideas]

Thruthfully, sales to homeowners is very rare in my area as we are a rural area. Our population is growing and the reason I have chosen to join this fight is because if bigger cities are seeing this as a big problem I may in the future. For me this is a pro-active strike before I am really impacted.
There is only so much as I can do as I am not in a possition of power in the industry. We will need to find a handfull of well educated and well spoken individuals with clout in the industry to spearhead our mission.
The mission cannot be directed to attack any companies as the companies are only doing what the law allows them to. The focus of what needs to be done is at the fedaral level. The EPA has left the loophole open and up for reconsideration. The most effective answer to our concerns is to address this loophole and request a timely reconsideration.
I have e-mailed the EPA though I am sure it will fall on deaf ears. I will try to make contact by telephone and see what contacts I can make. I am not holding out any hope that what I say can make any impact, it is going to take much more. Below is the e-mail pasted here as it was sent.

E-mail reads as follows:
There are many concerns regarding the restriction of split system air conditioning systems. Throughout the industry many manufacturers and distributors have taken advantage of the exclusion while contractors are being impacted by thier actions.
It is common knowledge among the industry that purchase of condensers and heat pumps by homeowners pre-charged with refrigerants is occuring. The exclusion is set to be reconsidered though no time for reconsideration is set.
We are asking that the reconsidertion take place in a timely manor. We are also requesting that the reconsideration focus on the impact to small business owners.
Not only should provisions be in place to restrict the sales of the refrigerants, it should restrict the sales of refrigation devices such as condensors and heat pumps to only certified persons. This restriction based on the knowledge that in all instances a refrigerant will be present and being used to complete the installation process.
Steps need to be taken to keep uncertified persons from working with refrigerants. This is a request to close the loophole left open that allows such occurances.

We'll see if I get a response though it will likely get deleted as soon as it is recieved.

[i_got_ideas]

OK....trying to sleep but thought of one thing that is going to help us in our area that everyone could use in thier area as well.

I was talking with one of the BIG big wigs from our energy company the other day when he stopped in our office.

He told me that soon there is going to be a stipulation that in order to get a heating and cooling equipment rebate they are going to require that a load calculation be turned in.

I told him that was just fine with me as we do loads for EVERY install anyhow.

This will also be a deturent for homeowner installs. If they aren't going to get thier $450 rebate, they will have it done by a contractor.

This will help in our cause but if need be...like I have said in previous posts, only those willing to accept change will survive. So if homeowners want to install thier own equipment and want us to do the load calcualtions, we will....ofcourse for a heafty fee.....and they won't be installing equipment bought from us.


If you do have a homeowner stop in and request a unit over the counter......money is money right. So you figure the price of the unit and how much you would charge to install it and then tell them that is the over the counter price. They likely will just walk out the door after saying "I'll get back to you on that." Atleast you tried, right....and if they buy, well what a profit.

[mr big]

I agree that the EPA loophole should be corrected where by split systems should not be sold to anyone without EPA certification. That was the way it was suppose to be in the beginning until a certain manufacturer challenged the EPA on the issue & the EPA wilted to them. I will not name the manufacturer to prevent a brand war dicussion that will last for days. However, do you really believe that many homeowners install their systems? I think you are talking about a very small percentage of business. Isn't the real problem with the HVAC business is that there are so many people in the business. Every maintenance man does it on the side. Policemen do it on the side. Hospital workers do it on the side. Electricians do it on the side. Postal workers do it on the side. Hvac employees do it on the side. Guttering people do it on the side. Distributor employees do it on the side. This list can go on & on. Most of these side liners are EPA certified & registered as dealers. I must add that in most areas that the term "registered" doesn't really mean anything. I would venture to estimate that there are just about as many systems put in "on the side" after normal working hours , as there is by actual HVAC contractors that have real places of business with real employees that pay real insurance, workmans comp & taxes. Furthermore, in many states it so easy to get into the HVAC business. You really don't need a thing. You don't need to know a thing. You need no license. There is no test.There are no inspections. There are so many so called "dealers" in this business that really should not be in the business. However, there is no laws or restrictions to keep them from it. This scenario has made it real difficult for the legitimate, knowledgable, quality, customer oriented HVAC contractor to make decent profits. Some in government circles call this competition & healthy. All manufacturers sell to them because if they don"t, somebody else will. When manufacturers say they only sell to registered dealers, that means nothing. Like I said earlier, registered in most cases just means a piece of paper completed with a small fee. Systems are being installed today for less money than dealers installed them for in the 1960's & 1970's. It is really scary when you think about some of the characters being sent out to houses & businesses to install & service gas & electrical equipment. Maybe it is now just the American way. I hate to keep talking about the good ole days, but Hvac contractors & their employees took more pride in their work. Their installers & service techs were greatly interested in learning the business. They wanted to be the best. They could not wait to come to a training class. Classes were standing room only. Now, the Owner has to pay them to come to training & while there many just sleep through the class. I hope the industry can be cleaned up a bit, but I am a afraid it runs deeper than that.

[sarge]

Now all we need is a lobbyist for our group in congress. Isn't there already a trade organization that will do our dirty work for us? Hmmmmmmmmmm.....

[topdog]

Where does ACCA and NATE stand on this issue? With all the dues and costs for membership and testing, one would think, they would be looking out for our interests.

[sarge]

Originally posted by topdog
Where does ACCA and NATE stand on this issue? With all the dues and costs for membership and testing, one would think, they would be looking out for our interests.

That is what I was getting at Topdog. The problem is only a fraction of hvac businesses are involved in ACCA or PHCC, leaving the industy without a STRONG voice. Eveyone complains about the dues but in reality the dues for a small company are only about $2 per day per year. So until we get on the same page it will be the same old song. Electricans and plumbers get more recoginition than us. Even apartement associations get more pull than us.

By the way, the apartment association blatantly says:

"We are exempt from the hvac, elecrical and plumbing codes and enforcement. You (trades people) don't have enought money to change the current laws. We've got gobs of cash and legislators in our hip pocket." (Or something to that extent)

Money talks, BS walks. So far 90% of the hvac industry is merely BS when it comes to legislation.

[midhvac]

Looks to me like the manufacturers, state & local govts, fed. govt, distributors, contractors and techs are on a collision course. What a hell of a collision it's going to be. The outcome is a total mystery.

1. Manufacturers want equipment mass marketed through Home Depot, online sources, so *ANYBODY* can buy them.
2. State & local govts. want full blown, mandatory contractor licensing & insuring.
3. Legitimate distributors will be wiped out if manufacturers get their way. It's already started.
4. Contractors won't make enough money to run a professional operation and comply with state & local requirements.
5. Fed. govt. phases in higher efficiency standards, which means more complex equipment being installed by less qualified people.
6. Techs: Salaries for techs will plummet, as contractors won't have the money to pay them, which will result in hvac tech schools closing their doors.

Somewhere in this recipe for disaster add in and stir until boiling:
1. The insurance companies who just raised contractor's business liability premiums 150% this year.
2. Dupont who just increased the cost of reclaiming refrigerant 400% last year.
3. The utility companies who want to take over the industry.

Will the winner please come forward.

[topdog]

And someone recently posted,"who wants to be a hvac contractor" hard enough trying to be a good tech.

[aircooled53]

1) Stop the sale of company's to HVAC lines like Lennox that paid 7.6 million for Service Experts .
2) Stop the retail sale of any product that deal with refrigerant, freezer,ice machines, and split systems.
3) If utility company's want to take our industry and control it for there on profit so they can set pricing . Just as they are doing now by letting other "so called" electric company market lower prices in a ploy to market there company and raise the costs of building bigger power plants that do not meet government standards.
4) If we are going to meet our on goals for the future of the industry,we need to band together and pass new federal guide lines to insure that state officials follow our views and polices. If not we as servicemen,contractor's and business owners will suffer to the larger more powerful lobby groups..
5) Write your local officials and state to get them moving or vote them out in the next election..

[i_got_ideas]

[ deleted by Boss

- politics ]

[Edited by Boss on 04-12-2004 at 07:55 AM]

[kne]

rite on . timely manner,not manor

[i_got_ideas]

Originally posted by kne
rite on . timely manner,not manor

:(

[midhvac]

One reason no major efforts are in place to combat threats to our contractor businesses is because we're not all feeling immediately threatened by all of the same problems.

Some of the threats aren't happening in every city, i.e. utility co. takeovers & Service Experts.

In this area, the utility co. got their butts whipped and got out of the hvac bus. after the Enron scandal, but Service Experts remained. The utility co. sold off the 11 hvac co's it had bought nationwide for a big loss.

Service Experts started out as Lennox's defense against the utility co's, but in some cities has hurt some of the contractors, although it hasn't had that effect here.

The greatest threat everyone here shares, owners & techs alike, is the sale of hvac equipment directly to the public. This will mean that hacks will be in much greater demand because qualified, licensed & insured businesses of every size will be unable to compete.

Let's face it, state & local govts have been unable to stop unqualified people from installing equipment. Mandatory contractor licensing, stiffer codes and permit requirements only affect legitimate businesses. Also, state & local govts don't have the resources to ensure that installations are done properly.

Some manufacturers will do whatever they can get away with to increase their sales. Some don't care who installs the equipment. Don't expect any voluntary changes to come from them. They will only change when federal mandates force them to comply.

I'm very pessimistic about getting the feds to change anything until:
1. The majority of voters demand it
2. The environment is in much worse shape because of it
3. It has a measurable negative effect on energy consumption



[Edited by midhvac on 04-12-2004 at 10:26 AM]

[midhvac]

The first step is to define who your allies & enemies are. The fed. govt is neither, but they simply hold the power to provide a solution.

Our enemies are any manufacturing co. who sells to the public.

Our allies are companies many of us dislike, but as long as we keep things focused and deal with *only* the direct sales issue, their strength and influence can help us, and they will do so if it's to their advantage. Let's kill one dragon at a time.

Allies include anyone who doesn't want direct sales:

1. Contractors (DUH!!) This *includes* Service Experts and utility co's who own hvac businesses.
2. Manufacturers who are against it
3. Independent hvac equipment distributors
4. State & local codes depts. They would be the most persuasive group, because their primary concern is the quality of the installations done in their areas and they would be devastated to see the number of bad installs increase.
5. Professional hvac trade organizations.

The feds aren't going to step in just to protect your business. It's not their philosophy to do so.
Any complaint to the feds by hvac contractors alone about the effect on their businesses will accomplish *exactly* what it did for these people:

1. Corner hardware stores vs Home Depot
2. Small retailers vs Walmart
3. Hvac businesses vs utility co's

[R12rules]

Originally posted by midhvac
One reason no major efforts are in place to combat threats to our contractor businesses is because we're not all feeling immediately threatened by all of the same problems.

I'm very pessimistic about getting the feds to change anything until:
1. The majority of voters demand it
2. The environment is in much worse shape because of it
3. It has a measurable negative effect on energy consumption

1) the majority of voters are also homeowners/property owners ... IE: end users. And an end user is NOT going to vote against themselves being able to visit a home center and buy their stuff retail.

2) How is "The Environment" going to get in better or worse shape .. in regards to our industry or the homeowner buything their own equipment?

3) registered, certified, lisenced service technicians are the cause of most systems being unbalanced in their refrigerant charge. And that charge need only be off by a miniscule amount in order to drastically affect the effeciency of mechanical HVAC/R equipment.

How many guys simply charge up a split system until the gages read 65# on the low side ?

How many commercial techs leave a big ol package unit running with covers that are not sealing properly?

A service tech who is not properly trained in school and then properly Mentored in the field, while he is yet in school... will not be the best service tech once they hit the roofs on their own.
And even some of the lead techs as well as more than a few service managers I have work alongside ... didnt use a micron gage for evacuation work.
And I know they did not charge units according to subcooling.
And I never if ever ... (big if) .. never remember watching them check the superheat back to the compressor on a built up system!

The homeowner is not the problem here. Neither is the weekend warrior/ hack/ DIY guy.

And as far as getting all upset over the end user buying their own major equipment .... just ask some of the market men here who have to contend with supermarket chains purchasing thier own parts. And they dictate many of the charges a contractor can get away with marking up their pricing on.

This has been going on with heavy commercial work for many years.

The ONLY thing you and I have to offer the customer is SERVICE!!! Pure and simple service.

We do not manufacture any product ourselves.
We do not have any influence whatsoever on any Amercian made HVAC/R goods or products.

If you disagree, then please explain to the rest of us why pot compressors do not have any means of draining the oil without removal?
Why is there NOT an oil level sight glass in EVERY UNIT???

Why is there a Montreal Protocol?
Why do we recover "safe" blends?

Why does freon cost so much? AFTER ALL THESE YEARS???

Why are so many pieces of equipment branded by techs as "POS" ?
(well duh .... it's because THEY ARE "POS"!!!)

Why dont OEM's install more Henry isolation valves on systems so we could isolate a problem component and not have to recover the entire charge for simple component repair?

All of these things and many many many many many many many MORE have been repeatedly brought to the attention of the OEM's. And they have decided they do not need to respond to our needs. They dont have to bow to our dictums. They simply choose to ignore our requests.
They are "Product Driven" and NOT "Service Driven", like we are.
(well ... some of us are)
If anyone ever listened to what we had to say, we never would have had to surrendar real freons. We never would have had to adapt to mandatory recovery of any and all refirgerants.

These were just a few of my many questions. But this is enough for right now ... just to give you a taste of where I am headed with this. :D

[Edited by R12rules on 04-13-2004 at 02:37 AM]

[Steve Wiggins]

Mr. Big I really liked your post, right on target.

Local enforcement is the answer. Feds & the states don't have the manpower to directly police it. Your local city attorneys, judges, public safety officals do not realize there is a problem. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. What is a city building offical supposed to do when the judge throws his citation out of court?

I will keep asking you guys again and again to "adopt-a-city". I will adopt your city and work in a positive manner with the elected leaders to clean up hvac crime in your area. In return someone can adopt mine doing the same. Watching each others backs is the best way because it is obvious no one else is doing it.

ACCA's hands are tied because a certain portion of their members (even officers) are violating the rules & laws on a regular basis. Any smuck with money can be an ACCA member. Similar to the BBB. No quality control. It's a joke as far as I can tell.



Locally in TX......There is one thing I don't understand about my TACCA organization. Why are the members the only ones paying dues? Do you know I was sent a bill in the WINTER of $350 for my one lone self? That cost is outrageous! Add in $120/yr. for meals and my total cost is $470...geeeze! You can shear a sheep twice a year but only slaughter him once.

There are exactly 12,204 licensed contractors in TX right now. Why can't we tack on a TACCA fee to their $125/yr license fee of say $50. This would bring in $610,200 for TACCA to work with instead of everytime you turn around TACCA is asking for some kind of more money event. Negative distrust of TACCA would decline and we could actually grow as an industry.

[Edited by Steve Wiggins on 04-13-2004 at 03:52 AM]

[i_got_ideas]

One thing I personally like that is starting to happen here is that the energy company is starting to require load calculations for the homeowner to recieve thier rebates. These rebates are $450 for heating and cooling or up to $1400 for a ground source unit.
If the homeowner is going to miss out on there rebates if they have a hack that doesn't do loads, they may not chose the hack. Actually there are some fairly large companies here that rarely do load calculations on a home prior to install. I think it is total BS and I have increased my sales greatly educationg customers about the importance of these figures. The homeowners know, after I have talked with them, that if the company does not measure thier house for the estimate, throw it out.
I think that all energy companies should require loads be run on homes to recieve rebates.
Someday it will get better, we just all have to fight the good fight and stand up for what we know is right.

[Steve Wiggins]

igi there will be at least one hvac prostitue in your area that will run bogus loads for the hacks for a nominal fee.

[berad]

I don't understand how service experts is part of the problem. As long as service experts exists, you don't have to worry about being the high bidder. Also it is not SE intention to sell directly to the public. They want the money for the installation as much as the rest of you. However aside from this little point I agree with you all and where can I sign up?

[i_got_ideas]

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
igi there will be at least one hvac prostitue in your area that will run bogus loads for the hacks for a nominal fee.

Oh, we do loads for a fee, maybe not nominal. The fee is $450.

It is this high because we don't like DIY'ers but business is business and if they refuse to buy a furnace from us we may as well take as much money as we can.

I know this is what we are fighting against...but the one single time I had someone ask for a load they gave me a dumbfounded look upon hearing the price and walked out....mission accomplished :D

[i_got_ideas]

Originally posted by berad
I don't understand how service experts is part of the problem. As long as service experts exists, you don't have to worry about being the high bidder. Also it is not SE intention to sell directly to the public. They want the money for the installation as much as the rest of you. However aside from this little point I agree with you all and where can I sign up?

You're signed up now. I am just wanting all the imput I can get to see where things stand. After that....well, I'll know when I get all the info.

Really, there is nothing I can do about Service Experts but we can stop supply houses.

I agree with a previous post that mentioned fighting in your local area. It is much easier to talk to a congressman than the EPA. As far as enforcing whatever changes comeabout, that will be up to us. Much like turning in a contractor for breaking EPA laws....we would have to rat out the bad guys.

[hvacwidow]

Guys your all forgetting something. Governments (local state and fed) are looking for $$$$. If the manufacturers are getting them more sales tax by selling out the door....there it is.

If we go to them and say look...in order to start the process of getting hacks off the street. Let's make everyone working on a gas appliance have to get a license. Let's start with it being a state license for now. Then they get $$$ for the licensing.

Next we go to where every cracked heat exchanger found MUST be reported to the local code inspector and the power company. Then if it's not repaired or replaced in so many days (if the ppm are too high, their gas service is cut off) then they are fined. Thus producing more money for the gov't.

Then we go to where if a gas appliance is worked on and it's not done by someone certified with their gas certification then it's a fine. Granted your DIY's will still do their own work. However if you as a service person come in and see that work has been done that's not code and they don't have service tickets or are able to name a company that did it, then it's a fine. Put a $10 reward on turning a DIY in.

Finally, let's get tougher with our home inspections. Way to much gets by the home inspector because it was home done. If we make it tougher to sell the house in the long run without ALOT of expensive repairs we will imcrease the amount of good work being done.

Alot of my ideas are rough ones. But the one thing I stand by NO MATTER WHAT, the gov't won't do anything unless it benefits them somehow. The companies paying the sales tax on the marked up price of that unit out the back door are benefitting them more now then all the honest guys are. (The reason I say this is that in the shop I worked for we only had to pay sales taxes on our cost for parts--we were a flat rate shop. I instituted adding a 10% mark up on those costs just to be safe in case we screwed up on a filter out the door or something.)

Just my thoughts on the issue.

widow

[midhvac]

This thread graphically illustrates that we are too fragmented to agree on a plan of action.

Some of us also have separate agendas to kill off utility companies and Service Experts which we wish to be part of the plan.

Your local congressmen are going to be exactly as much help to you as they were to the entire industries mowed down by Home Depot, Walmart, etc.

Some of us think we can push off everything onto the local codes administrations and that they'll be able to handle it without major additional funding. Where's the extra money going to come from for them to hire more inspectors to beef up those departments nationwide? I know of few cities, counties or states who aren't currently feeling budget pinches. For every code inspector out there now, there are hundreds of hacks making work for them. The last thing they want is a major workload increase, which is why the administrative heads of those depts would probably be willing to help us present our case to the feds.

Imagine the combined clout these departments represent as a group, combined with that of the organizations which produce the codes.

[i_got_ideas]

Originally posted by midhvac
This thread graphically illustrates that we are too fragmented to agree on a plan of action.

Some of us also have separate agendas to kill off utility companies and Service Experts which we wish to be part of the plan.

Your local congressmen are going to be exactly as much help to you as they were to the entire industries mowed down by Home Depot, Walmart, etc.

Some of us think we can push off everything onto the local codes administrations and that they'll be able to handle it without major additional funding. Where's the extra money going to come from for them to hire more inspectors to beef up those departments nationwide? I know of few cities, counties or states who aren't currently feeling budget pinches. For every code inspector out there now, there are hundreds of hacks making work for them. The last thing they want is a major workload increase, which is why the administrative heads of those depts would probably be willing to help us present our case to the feds.

Imagine the combined clout these departments represent as a group, combined with that of the organizations which produce the codes.


That's exactly how I was feeling about it. I don't think I could really come up with one good plan from everything here.

We just have to face it....it's up to us.

We have to educate consumers about how new technology is not for DIY'ers or untrained wanna-bes.

2 hack companies in my town went down in flames last year and we (the quality contractors) are going for 3 this year. After that, all we have left to fight is each other.

We can win the fight....be patient and persistant.

[midhvac]

Originally posted by i_got_ideas
[QUOTE]That's exactly how I was feeling about it. I don't think I could really come up with one good plan from everything here.

We just have to face it....it's up to us.

We have to educate consumers about how new technology is not for DIY'ers or untrained wanna-bes.

2 hack companies in my town went down in flames last year and we (the quality contractors) are going for 3 this year. After that, all we have left to fight is each other.

We can win the fight....be patient and persistant.

You must be in a very small town. Here in the big city, there are 10 hacks to every one of us. I think if someone dropped an a-bomb, hacks and roaches would still be here after the mushroom cloud dissipated.

[i_got_ideas]

Originally posted by midhvac

Originally posted by i_got_ideas
[QUOTE]That's exactly how I was feeling about it. I don't think I could really come up with one good plan from everything here.

We just have to face it....it's up to us.

We have to educate consumers about how new technology is not for DIY'ers or untrained wanna-bes.

2 hack companies in my town went down in flames last year and we (the quality contractors) are going for 3 this year. After that, all we have left to fight is each other.

We can win the fight....be patient and persistant.

You must be in a very small town. Here in the big city, there are 10 hacks to every one of us. I think if someone dropped an a-bomb, hacks and roaches would still be here after the mushroom cloud dissipated.




Yeah...8,000 people...rural area as well. Our office 30 miles north of us is in a city of 80,000 people and they have lots of hacks. I can bid same job here is small town for a lot higher than he can in the big city.

[dan wong]

[/b][/quote]..... Here in the big city, there are 10 hacks to every one of us. I think if someone dropped an a-bomb, hacks and roaches would still be here after the mushroom cloud dissipated. [/b][/quote]

[/B][/QUOTE]
I agreed with that. In Phoenix, there are probably 40+ Asian doing part time work on HVACR. Only two Licensed contractor(I am one of them), The rest are un-license (however many do have a EPA certificate just so they can buy freon legally).

Since they charge so little, they are usually busy. Professional are usually last in line.

As my friend said, "...You know what the business is like...accept it the way it is or get out of this business."

[Edited by dan wong on 05-07-2004 at 01:20 PM]

[DeltaT]

The reason out industy is in such a mess and has been in such a mess for years is that we don't stick up for ourselves. It's open season on anyone of us except the very large firms in this country and industry.

Individually, we still operate from a 1960's mentality where we wait for the phone to ring, respond, and wait for the phone to ring again. That is because we are more technicians than business people. We re-act in place of acting.

As long as we stay segemented in our own little communities and own little businesses we will contine to get picked apart and slide off into the background of hacks, plumbing companies, maintenance companies and the like.

One of the cold hard facts is that UPS drivers make more than the average skilled HVAC technician just for driving a truck and dropping off boxes. The local copy repair company charges $125 an hour for a service call and they carry a small brief case with tools and the tech wears a tie.

I will bet you there is not one company on this board that is even close to $90.00 per hour service charge on a long term, day to day basis even including the flat raters. I'm talking about service only, not parts.

We don't and haven't stood up for ourselves. And we don't promote our industry as an industy of professionals beneficial to our customers.

And we don't have one agency or organization anywhere that we are a member of that represents our concerns and problems. It's like shooting fish in a barrel to those that want to take a shot at us.

What goes on in Steve's state of Texas is a concern to me. His state represents, as do many other states, the on going daily problems of those of us that care and chose and are willing to pay the price of doing things correctly. And for that we are penalized while the unlicensed or unqualified service/installers continue without much penality, their way.

But what can I do, considering I'm 1,500 miles away, to assist Steve in Texas in regulating his industry? Nothing. No one there is going to or interested in listening to me because I have no clout, no source of input. And, certainly, no power through numbers behind me in the form of a well organized, professional, respected organization.

Same thing for my state in that all you guys should be aware and deeply concerned with the new series of rule and regulations. But you aren't because it's not in your back yard..yet.

The sad part is that I don't see anything changing.

[coolprod]

Everyone is slamming the manufacturers. I work for a large manufacturer and I assure you that we ONLY sell to O.E.M's and Wholesalers!! Cantractors cannot even buy thru us!! Now what the O.E.M'S and Wholesalers do with the merchandise when they recieve it I cannot tell you, but I know it DOES NOT get to the gen. public thru these doors!!!
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/linesm3.gif

[i_got_ideas]

I was NOT directing this at manufacturers. I do however don't appreciate wholesaler's in my area that will actually ship directly to a homeowner's front door.

What I did mention about manufacturers is that if the EPA changes the sales restriction exclusion of split systems that manufacturers will then just ship systems with a Nitrogen charge so the homeowner sales can continue. I am not saying it as a fact, it is pure speculation. I know if I was a manufacturer watching my bottom line, that's what I would do.

We want sales to unqualified persons stoped, that's all, and this was just a place to jot down ideas.

[midhvac]

Originally posted by DeltaT

I will bet you there is not one company on this board that is even close to $90.00 per hour service charge on a long term, day to day basis even including the flat raters. I'm talking about service only, not parts.


If you think there is currently too great a demand for hacks, what do you think would happen if all of us licensed companies raised our hourly rates to $90 per hr?

[midhvac]

Originally posted by coolprod
Everyone is slamming the manufacturers. I work for a large manufacturer and I assure you that we ONLY sell to O.E.M's and Wholesalers!! Cantractors cannot even buy thru us!! Now what the O.E.M'S and Wholesalers do with the merchandise when they recieve it I cannot tell you, but I know it DOES NOT get to the gen. public thru these doors!!!
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/linesm3.gif

I refuse to believe that manufacturers don't know that their products are being sold direct to homeowners. By allowing the process to happen, they are not only a part of the problem, but are also profiting from it.

[coolprod]

Originally posted by midhvac

Originally posted by coolprod
Everyone is slamming the manufacturers. I work for a large manufacturer and I assure you that we ONLY sell to O.E.M's and Wholesalers!! Cantractors cannot even buy thru us!! Now what the O.E.M'S and Wholesalers do with the merchandise when they recieve it I cannot tell you, but I know it DOES NOT get to the gen. public thru these doors!!!
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/linesm3.gif

I refuse to believe that manufacturers don't know that their products are being sold direct to homeowners. By allowing the process to happen, they are not only a part of the problem, but are also profiting from it.



How would we know...our products go DIRECTLY to the REGISTERED wholesaler/O.E.M. Only!! If they don't have an account they don't get!! And like I said, what they do/or sell to we don't know and we cannot control that. We cannot dictate to them who they are going to sell to.

[dash]

JOIN an HVAC trade association,start a local chapter,then a State Chapter,the dues you would pay are well worth the results you could get.

Other industries have some or a lot of clout ,due to strong ,National Trade Associations.

This is the ONLY solution,but it will take years and dollars to get there.

[midhvac]

Originally posted by coolprod

Originally posted by midhvac

Originally posted by coolprod
Everyone is slamming the manufacturers. I work for a large manufacturer and I assure you that we ONLY sell to O.E.M's and Wholesalers!! Cantractors cannot even buy thru us!! Now what the O.E.M'S and Wholesalers do with the merchandise when they recieve it I cannot tell you, but I know it DOES NOT get to the gen. public thru these doors!!!
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/linesm3.gif

I refuse to believe that manufacturers don't know that their products are being sold direct to homeowners. By allowing the process to happen, they are not only a part of the problem, but are also profiting from it.



How would we know...our products go DIRECTLY to the REGISTERED wholesaler/O.E.M. Only!! If they don't have an account they don't get!! And like I said, what they do/or sell to we don't know and we cannot control that. We cannot dictate to them who they are going to sell to.


Manufacturers can and do dictate who their products are sold to. Distributors who violate manufacturers rules lose their distributorships. It happens all the time. If the distributorship is doing very high volume sales, the manufacturer sometimes turns their head the other way.

[DeltaT]

Interesting article about the "big box" stores, as they call them starting to sell systems directly from the manufacturers to the public.

And that the newer systems are suppose to get designed as "smart" to make up for the lack of "smart" technicians in the field. So non-trained personel can install the newer generation of systems now on the drawing boards.

See for youself in this weeks May 3 issue of The News.

[i_got_ideas]

Even smart systems have problems and are likely more difficult to fix. Take computers for example. Comp. technicians make more than us so maybe as the technology evolves our rates will increase. Either way the customer is going to pay.

[coolprod]

Originally posted by midhvac

Originally posted by coolprod

Originally posted by midhvac

Originally posted by coolprod
Everyone is slamming the manufacturers. I work for a large manufacturer and I assure you that we ONLY sell to O.E.M's and Wholesalers!! Cantractors cannot even buy thru us!! Now what the O.E.M'S and Wholesalers do with the merchandise when they recieve it I cannot tell you, but I know it DOES NOT get to the gen. public thru these doors!!!
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/linesm3.gif

I refuse to believe that manufacturers don't know that their products are being sold direct to homeowners. By allowing the process to happen, they are not only a part of the problem, but are also profiting from it.



How would we know...our products go DIRECTLY to the REGISTERED wholesaler/O.E.M. Only!! If they don't have an account they don't get!! And like I said, what they do/or sell to we don't know and we cannot control that. We cannot dictate to them who they are going to sell to.


Manufacturers can and do dictate who their products are sold to. Distributors who violate manufacturers rules lose their distributorships. It happens all the time. If the distributorship is doing very high volume sales, the manufacturer sometimes turns their head the other way.


Years ago I would agree that this was the case, but now the tides are changing. Wholesalers/O.E.M's have many more choices of manufacturers to choose from. Japan, China, koria etc. are all flooding the market with these products at prices lower than we can make them!! So now we have to compete for wholesaler's and O.E.M's. much more aggressively!! Is there "head turning" going on?? I really can't tell you, What I do know is nothing goes thru these doors outside of wholesaler and O.E.M equip. only!!

[dash]

Originally posted by dash
JOIN an HVAC trade association,start a local chapter,then a State Chapter,the dues you would pay are well worth the results you could get.

Other industries have some or a lot of clout ,due to strong ,National Trade Associations.

This is the ONLY solution,but it will take years and dollars to get there.

With all the desire to improve our industry,and the wages and benefits for our coworkers,and all of the ideas expressed here and on this site,WHY is there so little interest in doing what , the National Home Builders Assoc .has done??


Until we the HVAC contractors ,band together,very little will improve .

[i_got_ideas]

Originally posted by dash

Originally posted by dash
JOIN an HVAC trade association,start a local chapter,then a State Chapter,the dues you would pay are well worth the results you could get.

Other industries have some or a lot of clout ,due to strong ,National Trade Associations.

This is the ONLY solution,but it will take years and dollars to get there.

With all the desire to improve our industry,and the wages and benefits for our coworkers,and all of the ideas expressed here and on this site,WHY is there so little interest in doing what , the National Home Builders Assoc .has done??


Until we the HVAC contractors ,band together,very little will improve .



Sounds great, who's going to start this stuff?

[Steve Wiggins]

We need a trade association that looks out for the contractor instead of one that only lobbies for the regulators. When you guys figure this out you will stop sending money to the wolf in sheeps clothing.

[dash]

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
We need a trade association that looks out for the contractor instead of one that only lobbies for the regulators. When you guys figure this out you will stop sending money to the wolf in sheeps clothing.


When does a trade association,"lobby for the regulators"?

Do you mean lobby for regulations?

[dash]

Originally posted by i_got_ideas

Originally posted by dash

Originally posted by dash
JOIN an HVAC trade association,start a local chapter,then a State Chapter,the dues you would pay are well worth the results you could get.

Other industries have some or a lot of clout ,due to strong ,National Trade Associations.

This is the ONLY solution,but it will take years and dollars to get there.

With all the desire to improve our industry,and the wages and benefits for our coworkers,and all of the ideas expressed here and on this site,WHY is there so little interest in doing what , the National Home Builders Assoc .has done??


Until we the HVAC contractors ,band together,very little will improve .



Sounds great, who's going to start this stuff?



There is Plumbing and heating contractors, national assoc.,I think,and there is air conditioning contractors of America,a national assoc.


Just look at all the compliants on this site,and others ,you soon see that industry is vulnerable to legislation,national,state and local,that is not in our best interest.

There are probably 50,000 or more HVAC contractors,and less than 10% belong to a national assoc..

The reason is usaully ,it cost too much,I think it's costing us all more,because we don't have a strong assoc.,meaning we should have 50% of the industry as members.

Look at the strength of unions also,it's in the numbers.

[DeltaT]

You guys are talking about making a trade association with dues represent us when most of the members of this supportive site already in place won't pay $10 to $20 bucks a month to support this very site.

Put your money where your mouth is first by making a commitment to keep this site viable.

[dash]

Originally posted by DeltaT
You guys are talking about making a trade association with dues represent us when most of the members of this supportive site already in place won't pay $10 to $20 bucks a month to support this very site.

Put your money where your mouth is first by making a commitment to keep this site viable.

I did already.

[DeltaT]

One down and more to go.

Ya know this is the only site in the world that I have been able to find that promotes positive education and information about our industry.

So, in a sense, this is an organization of contractors and techs who want more and expect more from our industry. Now look at how many actually sponser this site. Not many.

My point is this -- how you gonna start an organization to protect and promote our interests and the interests of our customers if we won't even start here?

I think Boss will pretty much accept anything as a start towards giving him back just part of what he brings to us each day as the movement of a mouse.

[boilerbots]

I am going to replace my own furnace and at the same time install AC. I am also going to do it myself.

Why? Well I would rather spend my free time doing it myself than pay someone to do it while I sit on my couch and watch TV. Also the money I save on installation labor I can spend on getting a better system.

The quotes that I am getting include over $3,000 in labor. So, I am going to do most of the work myself. I don't need to be paying a licensed and trained HVAC tech to haul my crappy furnace to the junk yard. I don't need a technicial to crawl around in my attic and install new duct work. I don't need a technician to pour a slab. I don't need a tech to haul the condensor and furnace from the distributor to my house when I am paying over $100 per hour.

What I am willing to pay for is the experience and equipment to install the line set, evacuate the system charge/balance the system and setup the blower speeds.

You should focus on service not on legislation to stop consumers from buying the products you are trying to sell and service. This will only cost you in the long run.

Besides you act like people can't live without AC. I have a 10 year old window unit that still works. There are always alternatives and passing laws won't help that.

[i_got_ideas]

Not to worry, you'll pay either way.

What's going to happen when the ducts you install are too small/ too restrictive and you have poor air flow as well as over heat the furnace and crack your heat exchanger(deadly by the way).

Then you will have saved a small amount the first time but the second time you'll be buying a new furnace, new duct work and if you are smart you'll have it professionally installed....in the long run costing yourself much more.

That's what we're talking about.

[troup]

ITS THE BEST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN... THE INLAND NW HVAC ASSOCIATION EVEN STARTED AN ACCREDITED 4 YR PROGRAM TO WHICH THE MEMBERS AND OTHERS COULD HAVE QUALIFIED HELP.. THE COMPANIES GOT TOGETHER AND THE TEACHERS WERE QUALIFIED PEOPLE FROM WITHIN THE ASSOCIATION. WE ALSO HAD A SUB COMMITTEE THAT KEPT TRACK OF LOCAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT ISSUES AND KEPT THE UTILITY CO. FROM CROSSING OVER TO INSTALL AND RETAIL SALES. IT ALSO BROUGHT ON BOARD THE RELEASE OF TENSION BETWEEN THE PLUMBERS AND HEATING/AC COMPANIES.

[Edited by Boss on 08-25-2004 at 04:48 PM]

[top-notch-tek]

But...

Check out the thread I started in the 'residential' section called:

"The Future of Residential Service???"

It raises some interesting thoughts about job security for contractors and technicians, manufacturer's catering to DIY'ers, and so on...

I think it very closely may relate to this subject.

It seems that the future may be in controls or commerical / industrial...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i got ideas ::: listen up...

What we can do to survive the changing environment in our field is anybody's guess..

But I think you and the others here should join me in calling for INDUSTRY LEADERS AND INSIDERS TO COME FORTH AND EXPLAIN THEIR VISION FOR THE FUTURE AND WHAT IT HOLDS IN STORE FOR CONTRACTORS AND TECHNICIANS !!!

After all, there vision is probably going to become reality in the long run whether we like it or not, so wouldn't it be NICE TO HEAR what they think the future holds in store for us??? So we can adapt in advance.

I'm going to keep putting this question out there until somebody bites on it.

[Green Mountain]

Originally posted by mr big
I agree that the EPA loophole should be corrected where by split systems should not be sold to anyone without EPA certification. That was the way it was suppose to be in the beginning until a certain manufacturer challenged the EPA on the issue & the EPA wilted to them. I will not name the manufacturer to prevent a brand war dicussion that will last for days. However, do you really believe that many homeowners install their systems? I think you are talking about a very small percentage of business. Isn't the real problem with the HVAC business is that there are so many people in the business. Every maintenance man does it on the side. Policemen do it on the side. Hospital workers do it on the side. Electricians do it on the side. Postal workers do it on the side. Hvac employees do it on the side. Guttering people do it on the side. Distributor employees do it on the side. This list can go on & on. Most of these side liners are EPA certified & registered as dealers. I must add that in most areas that the term "registered" doesn't really mean anything. I would venture to estimate that there are just about as many systems put in "on the side" after normal working hours , as there is by actual HVAC contractors that have real places of business with real employees that pay real insurance, workmans comp & taxes. Furthermore, in many states it so easy to get into the HVAC business. You really don't need a thing. You don't need to know a thing. You need no license. There is no test.There are no inspections. There are so many so called "dealers" in this business that really should not be in the business. However, there is no laws or restrictions to keep them from it. This scenario has made it real difficult for the legitimate, knowledgable, quality, customer oriented HVAC contractor to make decent profits. Some in government circles call this competition & healthy. All manufacturers sell to them because if they don"t, somebody else will. When manufacturers say they only sell to registered dealers, that means nothing. Like I said earlier, registered in most cases just means a piece of paper completed with a small fee. Systems are being installed today for less money than dealers installed them for in the 1960's & 1970's. It is really scary when you think about some of the characters being sent out to houses & businesses to install & service gas & electrical equipment. Maybe it is now just the American way. I hate to keep talking about the good ole days, but Hvac contractors & their employees took more pride in their work. Their installers & service techs were greatly interested in learning the business. They wanted to be the best. They could not wait to come to a training class. Classes were standing room only. Now, the Owner has to pay them to come to training & while there many just sleep through the class. I hope the industry can be cleaned up a bit, but I am a afraid it runs deeper than that.

Wow, Mr. Big that is one big paragraph. But, it gives me a segue to a point I want to make.

In order to make a policital point you need big bucks. You need organization. From this little forum you can do little else but *****. But if you can organize our thoughts here, then the next step is to get a trade organization behind us.

If you could get RSES or ASHREA to support this then you are doing something. But don't forget we the contractors are way down on the food chain. As with any chain we are an important part but we are no way united like the upper links.

[i_got_ideas]

Wow, never thought I'd see this thread again.

Still, I don't have anymore answers :rolleyes:

[ampman]

It would be very hard to stop consumers from buying hvac equip.,electrical supplies, plumbing supplies etc. I am an electrical contractor and I come across HOW (HomeOwner Wiring) all the time and let me tell you some know enough to be dangerous!!! They will call us after "Uncle George"
tried to fix a 3-way switch and insisit they have no idea
why it won't work anymore. I guess it's the same with all the trades.