Why there is a lack of motivated students in HVACR

[gschra11]

This post was made in reply to a comment about not having enough motivated students in the trade today in the "HVAC SCHOOLS?" Thread.

Walk into a high school today. Ask the students, "Who wants to be involved with HVACR?" If you get one or two hands, that is pretty good. If you get 3 or more, it is awesome. If you get 1 or none, I wouldn't be surprised.

I'll tell you how it works today in the life of a high school senior, beings that I graduated from HS 2 years ago. Your teachers, counselors, and in my case, parents, are all pushing you to get a 4-year degree. They want to see you go to some college, where you will live on a beautiful campus and take classes for 4 years and graduate. They pretty much don't care in what, so long as it is "something you want to do." Well, college reps go to the high schools to advertise what they offer. You have the basics... the various engineering and science disciplines, english, history, poli sci, business (Do you have ANY idea how many business majors there are in the world???) math, bio, chem, the list goes on and on and we have all heard of them.

HVACR is never mentioned. As a matter of fact, none of the trades are.

The biggest thing in high schools now is how high your SAT or ACT is. It is the number one worry factor among high school students. They spend hundreds of dollars taking those tests, then retaking them to get a higher score, then paying for seminars to improve them. Read the USA Today, where an article is written about how the SAT has changed its format to include a critical thinking section. It is a huge deal to people.

So we are prepping our high schoolers for college. The ones going to college are in a totaly different group than those who are not. The students who took ag or tech classes or carpentry in high school (assuming high schools even offer those classes anymore!) are looked down upon. They are not good enough to make it into college. They are not good enough to have the high ACT/SAT scores to get nice scholarships. They are ignored by their teachers and counselors as far as motivation. They are labeled "dumb." Teachers, counselors, and administrators consider them to be a "failure," because school districts keep track of their college placement as a rating, and it is MUCH more important than their vocational placement. Oh, and GOD FORBID that anybody graduates and goes straight into the work force, even if the company they work for offers their own training. After all, the mean income of a high school graduate with no post-secondary degree is only about $20,000/year.

Yes, it is a wonder why the trades are dieing. With no motivation from the school itself to pursue anything other than college, with so few colleges offering degrees in the trades, and with so much pressure not to be in that lower-class of students taking ag or tech classes, or entering the work force right after high school, it is a wonder there are any trade students at all. Even then, they have always been treated like they are worthless, no-nothing brats who have been trouble to the teachers, and bad marks on the administration.

Further, I know my theory is true. I have spoken with many students here at Ferris. People naturally ask each other why they picked it. Some students have said, "It was the only place that would accept me." When then asked what degree they are pursuing, the answer is always the same, "I don't know yet." These students genuinely had no idea what to do if they didn't go to college. Mom and dad, and their counselors at school, had provided that as the only option, and they don't know otherwise. They think that they are worthless to society if they don't go to college for something. Oh yeah, they graduate... with a degree they could care less about. Psychology is getting to be popular.

Even more proof... my home school district passed a bond issue for school improvement. It was time to expand. New classrooms were needed, and some buildings needed desperate remodeling. Nearly every building the district has will be updated, remodeled, and added on to... except the ag building. Welding, horticulture, farming, agribusiness, and some automotive, doesn't get a dime. Oh, and the ag building is the one that needs the improvements the most. Nothing has been done to the facility in over 40 years. With all of the code violations of not keeping it up-to-date with new safety standards and new tools and machinery, it is a wonder the state hasn't shut it down. Of course, they probably don't care enough to even step into it, either.

Next, if a high-school student tells their counselor that they haven't been accepted to college yet and don't know what to do, the counselor suggests the military. I have nothing against the military whatsoever; On the contrary, God Bless those brave men who are fighting for our Country. My point is that trade schools are nowhere near the top of the list as far as options after high school.

Finally, those people that DO have an image of HVACR don't have a good one, typically. HVACR to most people is the furnace in the basement or air conditioner sitting outside. It isn't the means by which grocery stores can operate, ice cream machines are a reality, medicine can be produced, blood can be transfused, factories can process, data centers can calculate without burning up, I could go on and on and on. Nobody notices this industry until their air conditioning doesn't start in the late spring, and then they get a bad image of us when we can't show up right that very minute because everyone else's on the block quit, too.

I am very fortuate. I have found the beautiful campus, full-blown university that offers HVACR. It offers a 4-year engineering degree in HVACR. It offers the 2-year technical degree. However, I also realize that I am very, very weird. I knew I wanted to design commercial HVACR systems since I was a freshman in high school. I wanted to be in this trade, with the architectural papers designing systems for big buildings. I would have traveled anywhere in the country to get that degree, but most of your high-school seniors have no idea what HVACR really is, let alone travel 14 hours, like me, to find out.

So this leaves us with the question... "What do we do about it?" The answer is: I don't know. How do you convince high schoolers that being a HVACR tech, requiring only 2 years of post-secondary education, is better than getting a 4-year degree when everybody else is telling them otherwise? How do you convince a senior that the gorgeous college campus with more women and beer than the dinky little unsightly tech school down the road isn't as good of an option? The only suggestion that I can come up with is to visit the high schools much like the colleges do and try to recruit for local tech schools in the area, and explain what HVACR really is. Still, even if this is done, there are a lot of other things you must contend with.

So I throw this Dowadudda-sized essay out onto HVAC-Talk, subject to your questions, suggestions, and utter rebuking... to better understand why as an industry we are short, and to show the scale to which this problem exists. It certainly cannot be corrected overnight, and certainly would take the effort of many to resolve.

So... what do y'all think???

[coolwhip]

Actually im kind of glad. This causes more of a demand for skilled trades and higher wages. I hope that I never see the day where tradesman are as common as lawers or business majors. In addition, our society has created a false sense of entitlement. By this I mean that younger adults seem to drag a@# on the job and then expect a big paycheck at the end of the week. Consequently, they never last very long. There a acceptions to every rule of course. I understand your valid point, however I like the fact that these skills are usually passed down from father to son. It keeps the market tight and makes it worth while. People in general think that if you have brains, you wont have to do the work of tilling the soil. Well, I like tilling the soil and I hope they go on thinking this.

Peace

[hack hater]

Great post.I dont know what the answer is-but let those people go where they may,they can whip out their wallet later to pay us to fix their stuff.I am getting my own shop up and running,and use my 2 boys-12,and 11,to help out.It's a great way to spend time with them,they learn,plus puts a little $$ in their pocket.

[sarge]

Our whole society looks down on the blue collar type but when the sh$t hits the fan who do they look to? The tradesman, thats who. We are only winning people over one at a time while mass media is dumbing down millions of people by the second.

"Got to go to college so you don't end up a plumber etc..." Then when the HD doesn't have the answer for them, you are the hero.

And then you will hear "You charge too much. I have a degree in XXXXXXX and I don't even make that much." Loser.

[sfry]

i still remember my 12th grade english teacher and the look i got when we had to write something about what we where going to study in college. HVAC what is that?? this is coming from an educated teacher. felt a bit embaressed when i told her what it was, some people over heard, and well you know the type of look you get. but one other person said he had a relative that made lots of cash doing it, then the opinions changed a bit. did ok in high school, really didn't give a crap, got by with 80's for doing no work. went to a community college, got 3.5 for the 2 year degree, something i was interested in so i acctually applied myself. i still don't know exactely why i got into this trade, but i'm glad i did. didn't grow up with a tool in my hand, my mom is probably more handy then my dad, so it wasn't the parents push. thru college it was funny, the older people took it seriousely. most of the younger people blew it off and where already counting the $$ they will never make, i think half of them couldn't pass a drug test. i have friends that work a few less hours, make less money, have harder times finding jobs, and i don't know how much in loans, and some don't even like ther jobs that much. for my age i have a lot to show, never worry about $, like the kind of work i do, but don't always like the bosses, but does anyone always like them. i guess the point i'm making is that there are smart people getting into this trade, and already in it. it is less pursued by younger people because of maybe peer press, and ingnorance, that is why a lot of people going to school for HVAC are older and wiser. a young person dosen't always appreciate the oppurtunity they have until it is to late. to anyone in school make the best of it and learn all you can.

one long post deserves another

[i_got_ideas]

The high school recruiting is interesting....I just went to our high school to talk to the shop teacher, but he was busy. I am friends with him and I am going to talk to him this weekend. I am going to ask if there are any seniors that standout asnd not going to college. I found 1 high school senior I wanted but he is going to college. He builds race cars with his dad and knows wiring...oh well.

I hope to find one. Finding an experienced tech IS impossible. On top of that, most techs around here are over 40 years old, I am the youngest in the area @ 25. I don't mind the thought of training someone as I entered HVAC with no experience and in 2 years, now I am running a 92 year old business.

I know there are talented kids out there that could do great even without trade school. There are those that just didn't like school, didn't get good grades, therefore aren't going to college, though they are very bright. This is who I am looking for.

[R12rules]

It takes a special person to become or act as a Mentor to a new guy in this trade.
Not just most of the tradesmen out here can do it.
Most dont even want to do it. Not even if it meant more money of Friday.

If is industry had a program for mentorig /aprenticing new people into the field ... then we could go out canvassing the high schools for clients. For clients to send to our trade schools where they'd work during the day alongside a Mentor and then at night, they would enjoy themselves in a classroom setting/ lab environment, learning alot about this industry, the trades, the basics of HVAC/R.

Then.... "they" would be flocking to us!!!

[hvacdiva]

I totally agree with the posts, however I must add one thing...

When looking for those diamonds in the rough, don't overlook the girls...

I grew up as being my dad's sidekick. I didn't get interested in the industry till I was much older, however whenever a service tech came to service any of our store equipment, I just designated myself the unofficial mistress of "whatchadoin" and "howcome".

Thanks to an instructor that recognized my inherent mechanical ability, and ability to sling it right back to the guys, I am enjoying my new found career path. I am going to receive my 2 year tech degree after this semester, and am going on for the 4 year engineering degree as well. I have met so many wonderful people in this industry that are so excited to see a woman courageous enough to "brave the industry".

Give the girls a chance..you might be surprised!

And as for the comment made by gschra11 "However, I also realize that I am very, very weird." We know, it is part of your charm, and we like you anyway!!!

[swat]

I was wondering about similar things the other day. Like good techs for instance. Why is it there is such a tremendous lack of talent out there. You can't seem to find much talent out there at all. Even in a top 5 market like Dallas it is very difficult to find a quality service tech. I just became svc mngr but i can not leave the field until we get some one who is capable of doing more commercial work. The school at which I teach has a few prospects but most of them are some type of engineer taking the class so they can work on their rental properties. I wonder if the wages were that much better if there would be a better draw.

I have supported my wife and 2 kids and although I am not driving luxury cars as a second vehicle I have never been unemployed for longer than 2 hours and I have always made close to what I am worth. I just dont get it.

[i_got_ideas]

Yeah.....lets impose a nation-wide rate increase...15%....and then 15% pay increases.

I sure could use another 15%....

As far as girls.....no problem if one could prove herself.

I wouldn't actually mind a minority, preferably that can speak spanish. There are a lot of our customers that speak no english and none of us speak spanish. We point....talk through things slow and figure it out.

I think that making it known that this is a career and not just a job would help.

[R12rules]

Swat, the reason I believe there is a lack of talent is because nobody has thhought this thing out! No one is making plans for recruitment.
No one has any idea of how to fix this problem.


When WW2 broke out, Uncle Sam had no trouble recruiting men to go into the war effort. Even women went into the factories to take the men's place in the workforce.

We dont need big government telling our industry Jack #$% about how to solve our problems! Period.

However, we do need some sort of RSES or other org to come along and take the challenge and fix things.


Doctors make money even when their patient dies.
Doctors work gets paid even by insurance companies. Our work gets paid out of pocket by the business owner, ie, the end user.
And we dont get paid unless our patient not only lives, but is healed ... so to speak!

If we only got paid on the same level as doctors and lawyers ... we would not be lacking the funds to pay our people a good wage. A wage that reflects what they have to do in order to accomplish these hoops we must jump thru each day.


Doctors simply tune out the latest techniques coming their way. And Doctors are so specialized ... you would never ask one to make house calls or deliver a baby, not unless you want to pay them extra for crossing over into someone else's area of expertice!!!

And us ... we have to keep up on the latest in everything!

We far superseed the medical profession.
If any doctor every took up learning like an HVAC/R service tech has to learn .... they would be nominated for humaitarian of the year!!!




As far as women in this industry goes .... bring em on!

[NormChris]

If you want to make a difference here are a few things you can do and if everyone did these things you would start to see a difference.

1) Join RSES and attend the chapter meetings. Through RSES you have some clout with the local community colleges. As a group the college administration will listen to you.

2) Become a member of the local vo-tech or community college HVAC program's advisory committee and express your concerns. Have your entire RSES chapter show up at the advisory committee meetings and express your concerns.

3) Get involved in your local HVAC training program. If the instructor is good help him out to become even better. Help him grow his lab. If the instructor is poor help get rid of him and replace him with someone who cares and can do the job.

4) Write your local school board and inform them of the opportunities in HVAC. Then go to the local high schools and pitch HVAC as a career.

Others here at this site may have additional ideas to add to my list.

Norm

[NormChris]

If the instructor or instructors at your local HVAC program are not certified get them certified. You may be suprised to learn that some can't pass the CM exam. An instructor who can't pass the CM exam should not be teaching. The NATE exams are too easy for an instructor. An instructor should be above that level.

No schools that I know of require an instructor to pass any exam in HVAC in order to be an instructor. They just hire based upon years of experience and an oral interview with the school administration.

[i_got_ideas]

Originally posted by R12rules
Swat, the reason I believe there is a lack of talent is because nobody has thhought this thing out! No one is making plans for recruitment.
No one has any idea of how to fix this problem.


When WW2 broke out, Uncle Sam had no trouble recruiting men to go into the war effort. Even women went into the factories to take the men's place in the workforce.

We dont need big government telling our industry Jack #$% about how to solve our problems! Period.

However, we do need some sort of RSES or other org to come along and take the challenge and fix things.


Doctors make money even when their patient dies.
Doctors work gets paid even by insurance companies. Our work gets paid out of pocket by the business owner, ie, the end user.
And we dont get paid unless our patient not only lives, but is healed ... so to speak!

If we only got paid on the same level as doctors and lawyers ... we would not be lacking the funds to pay our people a good wage. A wage that reflects what they have to do in order to accomplish these hoops we must jump thru each day.


Doctors simply tune out the latest techniques coming their way. And Doctors are so specialized ... you would never ask one to make house calls or deliver a baby, not unless you want to pay them extra for crossing over into someone else's area of expertice!!!

And us ... we have to keep up on the latest in everything!

We far superseed the medical profession.
If any doctor every took up learning like an HVAC/R service tech has to learn .... they would be nominated for humaitarian of the year!!!


As far as women in this industry goes .... bring em on!


As far as the doctor/insurance thing....I had a lady call her homeowner's insurance carrier for a cracked heat exchanger.....they paid up. Ofcourse minus her $250 deductable and now she has a claim on her record. I haven't recommended that to anyone as I don't think a furnace is worth the rate increase for having a claim.

As far us us superceeding doctors.....I think so too. You have to go to the doctor or you could die. You have to have heat or you will freeze to death....why aren't we making the money that they are? :D

[Edited by i_got_ideas on 04-11-2004 at 12:09 AM]

[swat]

I have often thought about how much education goes into our industry compared to the other fields. 2 - 5 years for educationor apprenticeship. Continued ed for every year after that. First 5 years are required to become worth a damn and have a clue what you are talking about.

[bmf]

i was a reall motivated student and still want to go back to school cant wait i want to know everythin i can about
this trade i really enjoy it. dont mind the ditch digging
work to start out on either gotta start somewere i get to the top when i get there

[absrbrtek]

Our Local Unions visit the High Schools and give a presentation on HVAC during the career week deal. They give out 30 aplications at 8am at the union halls on a specific day. People get there usually the nite before to get in line for the aplication, they are usually gone by 8:20 am.

Our trade doesnt attract people for a few reasons. Its physical labor, god forbid Johnny would have to exert himself or get dirty. High upfront costs to the tradeschools and when you get out your making barely above McDonalds wages most of the time. And last but not least the payscale is way below what it should be for experienced techs.

I consider myself fortunate that Im in the top 5% pay range and it provides me with a good lifestyle. No one handed it to me, I had to work hard and perform well to get there. People nowadays just want the pay but dont want to work for it.

I have one son working for me now and theres a good chance the other one will be getting into the field next year. I can pass my knowledge along and if they apply themselves they can earn a quality living also.

One other problem I see is the alot of business owners have no clue as to what it takes to run a co. No idea of what thier actual burdens per man hour are. Undercharge for thier labor and keep the area wages depressed. This also tends to keep qualified eager technicians from wanting to enter or stay in this field. JMHO

[uncle buck]

This is a very interesting post. Sarge hits the nail on the head. Absrbtek my "UNION" brother aka "ABT" god-forbid little Johnny has to exert himself is very valid. Some not all of the kids today are lazy,they have a warped view of reality.I agree also with "HVAC-DIVA" I only know of 3 woman in HVAC in my county. one of them is Highly motivated in may she is half-way to getting her associates degree. She took nite courses and got her Universal CFC certification before she even went on her first job interview. Her boss from day one saw that this lady was dead serious and was intent on playing hard ball. After 6 weeks she was given her own truck.She works both installation and service.Her boss calls her Miss Motivation. The other lady is an ice machine "GURU" 3rd lady in the biz don't really know her. but I agree with the hvac-diva.

[Dowadudda]

I come from small clicky town america. Very one sided like. As a high school student, I remember well how most of my buddies were scared out of their mind into scoring high on that SAT test. I can remember the sales push by the teachers and counselors about the value of a college education. After all these people were college educated. Due to their own college experience they all but ignored offering the seniors and even the juniors a peek into other parts of the economy and life and what other possibilities may be out there. With, of course the parents are right behind the teachers. They want their kids in college. Even the Shop program at our school, for as good as it was (the senior class built a house every year ), you were a second class citizen if you were in that program. Thats looking back, and thats with undertsanding better what went on. At the time, it's so suttle you don't notice the slight.

I had two brothers who went to the military, came back and did an apprenticeship in the trades and were making more money by the time they were 25 than any teacher in my high school. My dad was a very good contractor and was very trade oriented, and very supportive of any trade I might have been interested in. The main counselor guy at my high school wanted to suspend me from school for refusing to participate in the study for and the test taking for the SAT. I had already entered the Delay Entry Enlistment Program for the US Army. I was sigend up and just waiting to graduate and still I almost got suspended cause of not taking that SAT. My folks, the teachers who were in support of me, and some fellow parents, could not convince the counselor or the principle that I was one of few people who had already set some a solid agenda together towards becoming a productive citizen. They simply could not grasp the idea of going any other route than the one they took. And that my freinds is the problem. The bias of the puiblic education in America. My children will not be instructed by such close minded people. I have yanked them from public school. It's worthless.

And it pissed them off too. They could not control the situation. Here, punish this kid for doing something different. And they hated the fact that my folks, sat calmy and told them. They were fine and proud of my decision. They hated the fact that my old man had given the same advice to other people, my buddies who came to our house or the who worked in the summer for the old man. They thought he was an outlaw. It was really hilarious.

[rookie903]

Originally posted by i_got_ideas
[QUOTE][i]
As far us us superceeding doctors.....I think so too. You have to go to the doctor or you could die. You have to have heat or you will freeze to death....why aren't we making the money that they are? :D

[Edited by i_got_ideas on 04-11-2004 at 12:09 AM]

Doctors will save the life of one person at a time. We will save the life of an entire family sometimes. We should be paid at least as much as a doctor.

[Roscoe]

Do you think there is any validity to it?

The high school counselors and teachers school districts get recognition for how many students go on to college. The higher the college # applicants the higher the recognition the more the school recognition " Blue Ribbon" the more counselor and teacher recognition the more money they make.

I have two associates who teach votech and they can't get students and the ones they do get are discipline problems or can't be taught .

Hence the laws of supply and demand take place. The supply of blue collar workers especially intelligent ones the service techs etc have gone down. And the demand has gone up,every building has more complicated mechanicals. More of them being built by non union contractors who don't educate and consequently these new buildings are falling apart.

Supply goes down demand goes up PRICE GOES UP

SOOOOOOOO raise your prices and pay your people more

[refrtech]

Where do I start.... When I was in high school my graduating class was the last year that the VoTech school was open. My HVAC class was the last class to have the experience of learning something in high school that you can acctually use in the real world.The old VoTech school is now a magnet school for computer geeks. Like a few others in here I knew I wanted to do this @ the age of 15 when I joined the HVAC class my sophmore year in school. I became a teachers pet and learned all that I could. I was never a good kid in school. I always was fighting and getting suspended. I was just barely making it until that VoTech class. I then had a chance to go away from the home school and learn something that I liked , and best of all get all my science and math credits while doing so. Every year our trades classes would work with a contractor and build a house. my senior year the house we built sold for $389K !!! All the profits that were made went back into the programs to keep the classes afloat since there was no help from the school board. I think most of the people in this trade are like myself, a little rough around the collar. You will not find to many college type people in this trade. Most of us are damn smart but not meant for college. I kinda laugh at alot of my friends who thought they were the best kid around cause they got accepted into a good university. Most of them are miserable now and probobally will never catch up to me in the art of making $$$, but they have that all mighty BA or AA degree !! LMAO @ them now !!! Later

[refrtech]

Originally posted by lmtd
Typical HVAC guy = very smart, likes science, took a ton of crap apart as a kid, not real concerned with the rules, and enjoys exploring new things.

Do you agree or disagree? LOL lmtd !!! you are so right !!!

[Roscoe]

with all of it, atleast all the ones I know

[swat]

I was actually a loner and into sports as a kid. Wanted to be a teacher when I grew up or a cop. Love physics and consider myself above average intelligence along with some testing.

Agreed.

[mjr]

I think part of the problem is the sheer diversity of knowledge required to do any good in this trade. It may seem rediculous, but most good HVAC guys have some sort of grasp on many if not all of the following:

Algebra, acrobats, thermodynamics, the belly crawl, fluid dynamics, carpentry, electrcity, masonry, customer service, scissor lift operator, welder, fork truck driver, sheetmetal worker, pipe threader, pencil pusher, painter, boxtruck driver, salesman, teacher, student, blueprint reader, weight lifter, inventory man, navigator, electronic programer...gotta pee...hold on...

ok...where was I. Oh yeah...

drywaller, dispatcher, parts runner, bill collector, estimator... And the most requested (drum roll please)..........
























MAGICIAN!!!!


My high school was a trade school. 4 years of Stationairy Engineering/HVAC. I'm now in another trade program nights for service. 1 year done there, 3 more to go. Not counting all of the one and two night classes here and there....plus CPR and fire training. I'll have more years of schooling put in eventually than doctors & lawyers have. And I'm not even thinking about mechanical liscencing just yet.


It'll never be easy to find good people readily available to fill up these positions. Not the way it's going now.

[hvacbear]

We need to be paid more for what we do.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by mjr
I think part of the problem is the sheer diversity of knowledge required to do any good in this trade. It may seem rediculous, but most good HVAC guys have some sort of grasp on many if not all of the following:

Algebra, acrobats, thermodynamics, the belly crawl, fluid dynamics, carpentry, electrcity, masonry, customer service, scissor lift operator, welder, fork truck driver, sheetmetal worker, pipe threader, pencil pusher, painter, boxtruck driver, salesman, teacher, student, blueprint reader, weight lifter, inventory man, navigator, electronic programer...gotta pee...hold on...

ok...where was I. Oh yeah...

drywaller, dispatcher, parts runner, bill collector, estimator... And the most requested (drum roll please)..........
























MAGICIAN!!!!


It'll never be easy to find good people readily available to fill up these positions. Not the way it's going now.



I agree.


That's part of what makes this work so very interesting everyday!

[alpha480v]

Originally posted by lmtd
Typical HVAC guy = very smart, likes science, took a ton of crap apart as a kid, not real concerned with the rules, and enjoys exploring new things.

Do you agree or disagree?


I agree with you on this

[Dowadudda]

R12 you got this post going again and I think thats a good thing. These are the sorts of proffesional discussions on this site that allow us all to develop and have creative input on our industry.

On the 2nd page of this post I wrote a thread surmizing my opinion of why the teens are not getting involved with this trade. But now coming back and thinking some more, it goes beyond what I said. This trade requires a unique combination of talents. Good articulate speaker. Motivated and talented enough and have enough integrity to do a complex job, think very analytically, all the while working hard with labor intensive tasks. You need to be smart and you can't be lazy.

Most parents of the children my children hang with are lazy people. They are on average overweight people. Although twice as educated as me and my wife, have more things, make greater incomes, they live from payday to payday. Very poor moral judgements seem to be a common thread, when it comes to what to support their children doing and not doing, how they react to their childs behavior and ect and so on. My son lately has said some things to me about a few of the father's of his freinds. He said they never go do anything with their dad's like I do with him.

An example he brought up was, I will usually, if I get home from work early and they are playing football or something at the park in our neighborhood, I pull in and take over and I am quarterback for both teams. (being the adult in one of these serious sports events has it's privledges :D). For awhile in late summer we were doing baseball, football, soccer, dodgeball, and roller hockey almost every night. My son says to me, that he has never seen any other dad play with all the neighborhood kids. Makes me feel good. I don't think of it at the time that I am helping my son, I just see it as an oppoertunity to play, and the perk is, my son is there. But until he said that, I never realized how important that is to him.

As busy as my old man was, he rarely missed a soccer game or a wrestling match or a swim meet when I was younger. Mom would pinch hit for him when he couldn't be there. My folks were involved parents with all of us kids. Pretty amazing to me looking back, with them running a good sized business and all.

Parents today don't give a **** about their kids. It is so obvious around these parts it's not even funny. Some of these kids I know, have such extreme potential to turn out great but they are going to be michevious and trouble all because the parents can't get off their ass. It's sick to me.

[tlcartman]

it's all about the benjamins. everyone wants to come out of college making 100k a year. you and i know its not happening, but thats what they are led to belive. odds are that you will make more starting off after college than you will be making after 4 years in this trade. most of todays youth have never had to work for anything. they see their parents go off to work, yes even your kids, but they have no idea what their parents really do at work. they only see the results in the form of the paycheck. they think you go stay at your job 40 hours a week, and someone pays you just to be there. until companys realize what it cost to operate, and start charging accordingly, the outlook is not going to change anytime soon. the problem is not just limited to this trade either, it's in all trades. looking into my chrystal ball, i do see a time in the future when some trades will once again get the respect they deserve, but i just don't see it being this one, the electrician, or the plumber.

[SeattlePioneer]

I thought the career route into HVAC work these days was:

* Graduate high school

* Graduate college

* Get a high paying IT job

* Get laid off

* Be unable to find work for a couple of years

* THEN go into HVAC.

That pretty much accounts for tech in their '40s



Seattle Pioneer

[ricm]

Most older techs in the HVAC/R trades, jumped through the hard work process hoops, to say the least. But now, how do we recruit new people into the trades?

Every building on the planet for the most part was built by trades people... hotter climates need people who know how to make these buildings cool. Colder climates need people to make these buildings warm. Simple formula.

People will wind up on the shops doorstep looking for work. Do your best to get them smart. Don't use the old school principal of making them do all the bullsh*t gopher work... get them doing significant things that help them learn and keep them interested. Then you BOTH do all the sh*t jobs tegeather... to keep the balance.

Just because you went through the school of hard knocks and did all that grunt work with little 'learning' does not mean it was the best way for you to learn. Sure, it made you appreciate your ability to tolerate crap and have a strong back c/w strong resolve. But you can still get all of that much sooner if you guide them through the program right from the get-go.

Like mentioned before, the College programs in may communities and centers stain the minds of the general populace into thinking... that the trades are not the way to go... in favour of hightened community standards where their Boy/Girl is an Austronaut, or Lawyer etc. Fortunately, here North of the border, there are fewer Colleges and Universities pushing down the throats of their kids.... Small town thinking more around here.

HVAC/R techs are people with College-like intelligence, and calloused hands.

[Dowadudda]

That is a grossly unrealistic veiw of what one needs to do to be a succesful service technician in todays economy in this industry.

Rather than that advice which I would discard, I suggest you gain more books smarts, start working out and be fit to handle the mental and physical demands of a great career.

[gschra11]

Originally posted by ricm
[SNIP]
Like mentioned before, the College programs in may communities and centers stain the minds of the general populace into thinking... that the trades are not the way to go... in favour of hightened community standards where their Boy/Girl is an Austronaut, or Lawyer etc.
[SNIP]

While the colleges and Universities certainly boast their beautiful campuses and elitest attitudes, there still exists the stereotype that if you are getting Cs in late elementary school that you will "get" the blue collar jobs.

Growing up, I remember as early as kindergarden my parents preaching to me about how I was going to be the first in my family to go to college. I remember them preaching that I had to get As and Bs to be able to do that. I remember in the 6th grade my classmates who got Cs instead that were already being classified as "dumb" and having no chance of going to college, and therefore were just losers.

There is more to combat than just the colleges. You have to combat society in general.

When you figure out how to do that, please post. I would love to know. :)

[gschra11]

I whole-heartedly agree, lmtd.

Grades, SATs and ACTs are a big game, and quite frankly, some are bad at playing it.

If only society could realize that there is more to a person than pure intelligence.

We (we being my class) took an aptitude test in high school. (ASVAB - Armed Services Vocational Apptitude Battery) I got ranked in the 99th percentile in Mechanical Comprehension. No pats on the back, no scholarship money, no fancy picture hanging in the high school on the "Wall of Honor" for everybody to see for years to come, no newspaper article, no admissions to ivy-league schools - shoot - not even a recommendation from the guidance counselor about post-secondary education or career exploration. "Just go to college."

Yep. Lots of motivation there.

[Edited by gschra11 on 12-06-2004 at 11:53 PM]

[ricm]

Originally posted by Dowadudda
That is a grossly unrealistic veiw of what one needs to do to be a succesful service technician in todays economy in this industry.

Rather than that advice which I would discard, I suggest you gain more books smarts, start working out and be fit to handle the mental and physical demands of a great career.

Dowa... you already ARE the succesful Service technician... the concept is how you pass it on to motivate and grow new tech's with solid back grounds. If you peak their interest, then they will be thirsty to learn, gain the book smarts. Read, read, read, test the theories you read about, then read some more. No subsitute for that for certain. And no arguement about physical fitness in the trades... cut the plug off the tv set, and get off their asses - they won't regret.

Well, I gotta go dig the hole and fetch the tools - while the apprentice wires the unit up, welds the pipe, takes the temperature readings, etc. I'll check in her in a while to ensure she's keeping the trade standard at top notch. :D

[Dowadudda]

Ricm,

YOUR MISSING MY POINT> It may be my fault that you are.

THIS TRADE IS INDIVIDUAL>

One can teach, pass on and or mentor for so much. And it's a crap shoot. I have spent quality time with at least a dozen younger men that I thought were worth the time. Not one of them is in the trade now. Common to all of them was their own attitudes about work, ethics, integrity, priorities. Those traits are important in this trade. And those traits start at home as a young man or woman learning from mom and dad.

This sort of job has requires specific things in order for one to be succesful.

1. Ability to make good decisions with a lot of pressure.

2. Mentally stressfull so it requires a person who has the ability to work with that.

3. Inclement weather will often be the case and you must see through the job to completion. Thats a tough thing to ask of anyone in all honesty. Some of your upper echelon mechnics just simply understand that with out explanation. Some can't comprehend the dedication it takes to muscle through an even that presents itself.

4. Above all, one must have the awareness, where with all, to know when to play the game, be straight about an issue, when not to invite information, what I call gray area issues. Example being. You might not neccesarily tell your customer exactly the whole story as it might reflect bad on our coworker or company. That takes balls to be able to rise above those petty human nature wants to devastate another tech.

5. In most cases, maybe not for diagnosisng something, but to make the follow on repair of the equipment, it requires one to be fit. You can be fat, smoke, drink and look sloppy, but that is not the kind of technician that will fit the bill in this trade in the years to come. A technician in this trade in the upcoming ten years will definately need to be physically fit, or they won't be considered for employment. I know that might be a discrimination thing, but company's will not have to admit to that. Not only that but, why would you not want to be fit, healthy. You will be able to have a clearer mind at the end of a tough day.

People are looking for motivated, trim and neat and younger not older men to carry this trade. Thats just the truth. It's not to my liking but thats just the bold truth.

Now you might be surprised I did not mention mechanics, or that I think it's not important to be mechanically inclined. I think thats second teir. It never used to be. But it will become where the tech of the future needs to be more of an analytical thinker with less mechnics playing the important role for equipment breakdown. Also manufacturers are seeing the downward trend of mechnical ability and responding to that with what there making. I don't pretend to think one doesn't need any, I am saying one will need less.

Traits taught from the cradle in your household, good traits will give young men and women a leg up in this trade. I hate to say it, but the tech of the future will need to be twice as smart as me, twice as fit as me, twice as moral as me.

[Reak]

Going back to the initial three or four posts, I could not help to notice most of the recruiting efforts were delivered to high school seniors. Too late! A majority high schoolers have an idea of what they are going to do after high school before their senior year. Here at our school, I invite the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts {ages 7-16}, the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th grades classes from local schools to tour our facility {along with 10th, 11th and 12th} and watch our students perform in a lab setting. Introduce HVAC to them at a young age. Plus, their teachers develop an interest in the trade as well. It has come to the point where the counselors are touring with them, and a professional relationship has developed between our staff and theirs.

Do not make your target audience high school seniors! It is too late.

Thanks
REAK

[ricm]

No Dowa, you are clear enough. I suspect that I extracted a thought from a response of yours, and amplified my thoughts on that. Clearly you are right about the need for dramatic change in the industry. I think Most HVAC techs of today will have to gear up for a faster paced, clearer thinking, changes in the trade that very well may leave older tech behind. It's happening already.

I'm quite fortunate to have three open minded, well rounded, not to mention fit apprentices that give older techs hope that they will learn well and pass it on. A small difference to be sure.

I'm seeing that this particular thread from start to finish would and could make an excellent review on where the HVAC industry really needs to do. Comments from NormChris, R12 and yourself certainly reflect positive possibilities. And I suspect that it will take more and more effort for us older techs to initiate these changes.

Our company has a modicum of influence in the social communities we cover. And would be good to touch base with the educators and offering 'talks' at the very least during 'carreer days' at the local Jr. and Sr. Schools. Although a general change in the attitudes of children processed through the school system would be a difficult machine to initiate a direction change in thinking. You have to motivate the public.

I think I'll look into a bit of advice Norm Chris suggested and look at the high school to offer an HVAC program. Unfortunately we are more an Algriculture based area being in the heart of the Canadian Prairies, however that could be a good program to pitch to the College here. There are no trade schools near me. And no RSES chapters. I'm one of seven Refrigeration Techs in an area almost as large as North Dakota... lots of semi-trained people patch up lots of things to challenge us to repair. Although that seems like somewhat of an exaggeration, I'm not far off the mark.

That's why I'm excited to nurture and culter a measly three techs to be better than all of the existing techs including me. They are spending much of their own time to progress faster.

We do what we can, I suppose.

Ric

[R12rules]

I'd like to start a line of all the employers who dont put their money where their big mouth is. They make the verbal claims they want to have the best trained men working in their employ, yet when it comes right down to getting them into a training program ... they all of a sudden become commatose!!!

I'd like this line to begin forming right out in front of Dow's shop and wind around the block a few dozen time.
I want them to first read his posts here and then begin to line up. They need to kiss his ass for NOT following thru with their words!

Dow has done more as a very young employer than most so called "established" long run businesses of this indsutry!

Dow does things whey the others dont even consider viable anymore. Not that they ever did what he is doing ... it's just that they still make the claims about trained men!

Yet they refuse to step up to the plate.

I hope they can pucker up! Cause if they wont step up to do their jobs ... properly, then they may as well just fall over and die.


But not until they first ... publically, acknoledge they have lied, failed and really dont care about our industry!




Dow, sorry for volunteering your butt like this ... maybe we can get Dice to let go of Jack for a week or two while this "kissing up" is going on.

[Dowadudda]

I appreciate the fan fare. I think.

You just got a dig doing it I guess.

You know lately in the last year or so. I talk a lot to a lot of different contractors. In our trade and in others like electricians and plumbers. Just trying to find better innovative ways to approach things. Gain wisdom. Attempt to get out of them there secrets. I have personally made numerous visits to better, larger more productive shops elsewhere to simply see what I can do to implement on my own. My ideas, most of them that I share here are from those visits and conversations. I couldn't even begin to see where I come up with all this all by my lonesome. I aint that smart.

And to also add that although I might share one of those ideas here, I may have or may have not as of yet implemented them all. So don't thank me. The information, the ideas, the way to run a show are all being creatively done by great solid guys and gals all over the country.

Bear in Mind this all costs money also.

But overall. The common thread I have seen, heard and been witness to over and over is the fact that employees get pissed the most when they are not given due respect. It actually has been written about over and over too. But I hear of it all the time. Respect. Isn't that something. Our problems then seem to come down to one simple thing. We all need to learn to play in the sandbox with each other better.

[ricm]

"Every thing I've learned, I Learned in Kindergarten" Robert Fulgam. A good read, albiet ALL facets of life, supports exactly what you said Dow.

[R12rules]

Dow, I dont blame you for not wanting to be outdoors for those long lines at this time of the year!:D

As an industry, we could use a little Centrality to our ranks.

RSES would be good if all contractors had to join up and attend the meetings regularly.

But there is simply no remorse demonstrated by employers who refuse to infuse their employees with the knoledge/ experience/ resources necessary in order to succeed today!

[Dowadudda]

Bob,

I'll tell you why there isn't. Most contractors have very little business accumen, and the importance they put on not only operating a lot better than they could, but also like your saying with training, support, resources, is that because of the lack of business acumen, there is little money left for reinvestment torwards those goals at most companies. You can ask a contractor about his marketing budget for example. 90% of HVAC / R contractors in todays industry have not a budget for keeping the lights on let alone marketing. No plan. No outlook. No nothing. It's just a get er done and get on to the next mentality. Most guys have zero clue about next months upcoming tax payment, until the day it's due.

The more involved I get in my business, and the more I network with others, it's only now that I am beginning to realize how many shops are just on the verge of collapse if only 2 or 3 series of events were to happen to shut them down. Our industry, the contractors are getting run over by manufacturers and corporate america. You wanna know why? Cause they think were idiots. They think were all "ass crack heating and cooling". You be the judge. The well ran, well managed, fiscally responible, creative contractor, enterprizing into new areas, watching trends and responiding are the ones not having any problems at all. That 10%. It is amazing.

[MechAcc]

Check the article here http://www.hydronicnetwork.net/hydronic/edpolicy1.htm the author states that HVAC vocational education has SHRUNK to 1/10 the number of courses in the past 20 years.

[ct2]

Why is there a lack of motivated students in HVACR:

In my case It was due to

1) The school misrepresenting the program they actually
teach

2) The person teaching the class

3) No lesson plan

4) the class is being taught using Johnstone CD"s and no
classroom lecture or text books. we are expected to learn everything we can from Johnstone university

It took 18 weeks before we ever stepped into the hvac classroom to find the place a wreck. The first 8 weeks in the classroom , we spent cleaning it and trying to comply with the safety requirements of the district. we were also involved in other projects for the school.
A few days into this class we had to remove 3 phase power from 1 class and connect it in another class for a battery charger to charge the forklift . We were told where to take the power loose from and we tried to tell the instructor to take it back further but he said we would have enough.

Then when I installed the new box and conduit and ran the wire I came up a foot short. When our instructor told me to SPLICE THE WIRES IN THE PANEL and gave me lugs to do it with, well that kind of took the wind right out of me.

and btw ...i did not splice the wires. I cut the conduit shorter so I could make my connection.

I have since found another school and I am starting all over with a competant instructor.

[gschra11]

I don't think this is an educational problem.

While pathetic excuses of educational institutions can turn off students who are pursuing a degree at that institution, I would think that someone dissatisfied with X degree at Y institution would transfer to Z institution to receive said X degree, not change both.

Point being: If there is someone who is genuinely motivated to do something with their life, and the institution of education locally is not going to get them there, then they leave and go to the place that can. So what if there are bad community colleges? Skip the bad ones and go on to the next. Do a little research. Take a tour. Ask graduates. Talk to teachers. It's not THAT hard to evaluate a school.

If there is anybody out there that has the desire to learn this trade, they will find a way to get a quality education. It could be a union hall, full-fledged University, community college, or jumping right into a company willing to train the kid from the ground up. It is my personal opinion that if we can get students to have the desire, the education problems will become irrelevant because the motivated students will seek the top educators and the bad ones will fold because nobody shows up.

This is not an educational issue IMHO. It is a motivational issue which is independent. If we can get kids to think that "Being a heating and cooling guy is cool!" before and during early high school, as previously mentioned, then we have the problem nipped in the bud.

[ozone drone]

It's a fact that there's no social status at all in turning wrenches for a living. As soon as people see you wearing a company shirt, carrying tools, they deduct 50 points from your perceived IQ. This trade will never appeal to those who worry about status. Those of us in it, worry about this all the way to the bank.

Like it or not, this is a two tiered occupation. There's lots of room temperature IQ guys in it who are happy to skate along exerting, just enough effort to earn a pay check. Due to a small pool of talent to choose from and a high demand, owners are forced to keep these guys on the payroll, til they hopefully can find better. Unfortunately these "skaters" are the ones who end up working out of the trunk of their car and give the whole trade a poor image.

Smart people with a real work ethic can make an excellent living in this trade. It's easy to stand out in a sea of mediocrity. There's lots about this trade that can be appealing to people who need to use their brains dealing with a wide variety of challenges, without a boss breathing over your shoulder. And not only do you not have to be stuck in a cubicle, looking at the same four walls every day, shuffling meaningless paper, you are all over town or in different towns. I loved that part of the job.

How do you attract good people??? How do you explain the intangibles? I've had miserable nights freezing my gonads off in 10 below weather .. but when I was done there was a nursing home full of our grandparents who didn't catch pneumonia,who the next day gave me an ovation for my efforts.

[dragonfyre]

Seems to me that there is a lack of employers willing to hire.I am 42 been at my current job 11 yrs,go to nite school and carry a straight "A" avg.I do not like to be second best.I have dumped a lot of resumes in mail boxes of local outfits along with copies of grades and student of the section certificates and hav not gooten 1 callback ,all are looking for someone with exp.Where are the employers willing to give some one seriuos and dedicated a shot.Tell me maybe I'll have to relocate.

[ricm]

Dragon... Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada... crying for qualified techs. Winters are cold, demanding techs to be good with gas heating appliances as well, residential/Commercial.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by ct2
Why is there a lack of motivated students in HVACR:

In my case It was due to

1) The school misrepresenting the program they actually
teach

2) The person teaching the class

3) No lesson plan

4) the class is being taught using Johnstone CD"s and no
classroom lecture or text books. we are expected to learn everything we can from Johnstone university

It took 18 weeks before we ever stepped into the hvac classroom to find the place a wreck. The first 8 weeks in the classroom , we spent cleaning it and trying to comply with the safety requirements of the district. we were also involved in other projects for the school.
A few days into this class we had to remove 3 phase power from 1 class and connect it in another class for a battery charger to charge the forklift . We were told where to take the power loose from and we tried to tell the instructor to take it back further but he said we would have enough.

Then when I installed the new box and conduit and ran the wire I came up a foot short. When our instructor told me to SPLICE THE WIRES IN THE PANEL and gave me lugs to do it with, well that kind of took the wind right out of me.

and btw ...i did not splice the wires. I cut the conduit shorter so I could make my connection.

I have since found another school and I am starting all over with a competant instructor.


ct2 has it pegged. His earlier post above is right on the money. What he found at his school is typical of how HVAC programs are run. Very Poorly.

I have to disagree with Reak that going to high school student is getting to them too late. Most people change careers several times during their working career. Some who choose something other than HVAC may consider HVAC later because they recall being informed about it when they were in high school. We need to recruit from all age groups. We need to market HVAC beginning at the jr high level and some may not actually act on the information until they work at something else first. Marketing is simply keeping our trade in front of them as an option.

Word of mouth is one of the best recruiting tools. Many of my former students enrolled in HVAC classes because their room mate, friend or relative was in HVAC and was making money while they were in a dead end job. They were encouraged by their room mate, friend or relative and are now in the business.

One day I started a conversation with a young man about 22 years old. He was a security guard. I asked him what he was going to do in the long term and he had no idea. I talked to him on several occasions and told him about HVAC as a career. He eventually enrolled in my college classes, completed the program and has now been in HVAC for over 14 years. He is currently a service manager. He thanks me every time we meet. I have a number of such accounts I could relate to you. One on one recruiting works!

Now if we could just do something to bring our HVAC programs up to par. Starting with better instructors who know how to teach properly and know enough to be able to teach properly.

I just administered NATE exams to a group of current HVAC instructors. Several failed! One who failed had failed once before. There is no excuse for that. Anyone who cannot pass the NATE exams should not be teaching.

Norm

[NormChris]

Talk about the lack of good instruction, let me give you a few examples.

1. An instructor spent a full week attempting to teach his students the fundamental concept behind how a bridge circuit works. The students never understood the concept much less the applications. I had the same students the following week for a different subject. I spent 45 minutes teaching the bridge circuit and they immediately understood it. Boy were those students unhappy with the other instructor for having wasted the previous week on something that is easily taught and understood.

2. I sat in another instructor's class and a student asked the instructor why ice floats on water. The instructor told the class it is because of the air contained in the ice. If that is the sort of mythology he teaches the one time I happen to be visiting the class, how much more garbage is taught when I am not there?

3. I sat in another class while an instructor made a mess of attempting to teach how a TEV works. He wasted three hours and totally failed at teaching the valve correctly. When class was over it was obvious the students were confused. Of course they were because the instructor was confused as well.

4. Why is it that so few technicians understand superheat and subcooling? Because I have listened to other instructors make a mess of explaining them properly.


I could go on and on with more examples but these should do. I consider NATE certification pretty basic. If some instructors have trouble passing NATE exams what would they do with the RSES CM exam?

[NormChris]

Here are a few more I just recalled.

1. I taught an "in service" training class to a group of 20 fulltime HVAC instructors. I taught the fan laws and their application. A group of 5 of them came to me after the class and informed me that they never taught the fan laws because until my presentation they never understood them. At least they were honest and were making progress. Now they know them. How many of the others attending did not know them? I'll bet at least several more. Perhaps all 20?

2. I was having a discussion about carbon monoxide with an instructor once and it turned out that he did not know the difference between carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.

3. A school administrator sat in one of my classes once to analyze my instruction and complete my annual review. In my review he lowered my review (we were on a point system) and gave me fewer points because I was teaching Ohm's Law and he saw no need for HVAC students to know Ohm's Law. He challenged me to give him a single example of where a technician would actually need to use Ohm's Law. The real kicker was the administrator was a former electrician and electrical instructor. So, it is not only the instructors who contribute to poor instruction, the administrators are part of the problem. But, that is yet another topic.

HVAC education is in trouble. There are exceptions and some exceptional instructors. Although I did meet an instructor who was awarded a plaque for excellence in instruction but when I met him and reviewed his program the program was a mess and he could not teach to save his life. How he got the award I will never understand.

Keep in mind that having teaching credentials means very little. Teaching credentials are given for years of experience in the industry plus having completed a few classes in education. I took 60 university credits in education at the University of California and they were for the most part a waste of time. If I did not know how to teach before I took those classes I would not have learned from the classes. But, everybody makes a big deal out of the fact that I have the "coveted" California Communitity College Life Credential. The only thing that credential is to me is a legal ticket allowing me to teach. It is sort of like having an EPA refrigerant certification and therefore thinking that makes you a qualified technician.

We need some real meaningful HVAC teaching criteria and credentials that actually require the instructor to know HVAC and can teach it well.

Norm

[ct2]

GSCHRA11:

change schools is exactly what I am doing. I will be going to a community college . Just as I did before, I went and takled to the instructor, I walked the classroom and saw the differences in that program and the one I am in.

When I started in this class I talked to the instructor about the subjects we would be taught,and it sounded like it would include everything that other schools teach, but 18 weeks later, I found out how bad it really is.I am at least old enough to recognise when I am not given correct information and when an instructor tells his students to do dangerous things , like splice in a power panel.

here is another exsample .....same school

They have a student in the class that is stealing the tools and equipment that belonged to the schools hvac program. They found the schools property in a local pawn shop- they identified the student and arrested him.
The guy went to jail for stealing the schools property!
and they are allowing him to return to the same class to finish the program.

This guy took a vacume pump , Gauges , scale , recovery unit
and other hand tools everything we had to work with that was half way decent equipment. Everything they buy now is from Harbour Freight

As students we are encouraged to start buying and using our own tools but ill be damnd if this guy is going to steal any of my stuff

I also learned last friday that the school gets paid by the feds for each student they have on pell grants. If the school disqualifys a student from getting thier check , (usually for attendance) they still keep the cash they were paid for that student. In the past, the administration of this school had been caught embesseling funds and although none of them lost their jobs they were fined and later sued in civil court .

You may not think the school is to blame , but ill bet its been a long time since you have been to school. This place is hard to believe.

I started this program as did others with a genuine interest in learning the busniess, and I still have that interest , I am just sorry it took so long to find out how bad it was.

[NormChris]

Another failure of HVAC programs and the schools is accreditation. Accreditation is something everyone is told to look for. Is the school and program acredited? However, very few people have any idea what that actually means.

Accreditation is no real indicator that the school or program is actually performing well or actually teaching the subject. I have served on several accreditation task forces and learned first hand how limited they are in what they look for and in many cases individual programs are never even visited by the task force that grants the accreditation. The HVAC program may brag that it is accreditated yet may never have so much as had a visit from anyone who knows HVAC.

There are many cracks that HVAC programs can fall through including poor instruction, ignorant administrators, no curriculum, poor lab facilities and more.

Norm

[gschra11]

ct2,

Actually, I am still in school. The place that you described sounds deplorable; I applaud you for recognizing that it was time to go. A small victory has been won that way. I can understand, based upon your story, how some schools could completely turn some people off now. What you have described is inexcusable.

[jimkim]

Well, from my point of view, I have to say that I agree with a number of people who hope that it never really does get as popular as, say the SAT, or ACT, or whatever they take now. Let me say this: I have 2 B.S. Degrees-both from major southeastern univeristies- and both not worth the paper they are written on. Thank God I only owe for one- the other paid for by pale grant and scholarships. I will never recommend a univeristy education to anyone I know, unless it is in a well demand area (chemistry, medicine, maybe law).

As for the lack of motivated students from high school, who really knows what they want to do in high shool anyway. Most students in any college change their minds a few times after entering college. Unless you have someone to expose you at early age to hvacr, who knows it even exists! Here I am learning hvac/r ON MY OWN because in Chattanooga TN there isn't anywhhere I would pay good money to go ot school ot learn this! I'm too oid for high shcool agian (this is how trade schools treat ADULTS who return to school), and besides, they all teach hvacr on an "at your own pace', which means unless you are going full speed wiht the rest of the class, you can forget a lecture - and if I'm paying good money for school ,I expect a lecture- otherwise-you guested it, I'd be better off at home learning hvacr ON MY OWN.

[joey791]

I agree with the above posts, cause its a dirty job, its hard work, and we dont get paid much compared to attorneys and they such you find every other building in commercial areas.

Norm, one of our guys teaches night school at the local vo-tech, hes the type of guy if he can get a certification, he will and does, its kinda of funny, hes always asking for burnt up components, shorted contactors and the such and he cleans them up and uses them to teach his students.

I offered to speak to a HVAC high school class, gave them a freq drive that had burnt up, but never heard back, even though I have no certification or accredation I do enjoy teaching the classes that are given to me at the shop during the winter, and thats another thing, our shop has a winter training program(every tuesday evening) where 5 or 6 different techs teach for about 3 months things you will find or just info classes.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by joey791
I agree with the above posts, cause its a dirty job, its hard work, and we dont get paid much compared to attorneys and they such you find every other building in commercial areas.

Norm, one of our guys teaches night school at the local vo-tech, hes the type of guy if he can get a certification, he will and does, its kinda of funny, hes always asking for burnt up components, shorted contactors and the such and he cleans them up and uses them to teach his students.

I offered to speak to a HVAC high school class, gave them a freq drive that had burnt up, but never heard back, even though I have no certification or accredation I do enjoy teaching the classes that are given to me at the shop during the winter, and thats another thing, our shop has a winter training program(every tuesday evening) where 5 or 6 different techs teach for about 3 months things you will find or just info classes.


Joey, you have the right attitude. And, I applaud you for offering to speak at the high school. The fact that the instructor did not bother getting back to you is just more evidence that most of them don't actually care that much about their students or the quality of their instruction.

You must work for a pretty good shop if they provide in-house training in the winter. You don't always have to bring in a professional instructor or a factory rep to have a good learning session. Just getting the guys together to share technical information and learning experiences can be very valuable. As long as someone is there to keep things on topic.

[Shophound]

Hmm...I forgot this thread even existed. Guess I'll toss in my two pennie's worth.

Anyone remember a TV show a few years back named "Taxi"? And how all the taxi drivers dreamed of doing something big, like acting or Broadway? They only drove taxis to pay the bills and stay fed until they got their big break.

All except for one taxi driver. Alex Rieger. I remember one show where all the drivers in turn stated what their career aspirations were. "I want to be an actor." "I want to be on Broadway." "I want to write for the Tonight Show" etc. When it came Alex's turn, he said, "I'm a taxi driver. That's all I've ever wanted to be." And he seemed perfectly content to wear that status in life.

That was me. Although high school was a few years or more ago for me now, I knew by my junior year that I wanted to be in the industrial cooperative training program so I could get an HVAC/R job and begin learning. Many of my fellow students were pushing to get into college...even then the trades were considered relegated to the freaks and misfits and tokers who apparently weren't motivated enough to sit down for an SAT test.

But at least then the school district gave us trade students more support. My high school had a wood, metal, and auto shop on the campus. My first HVAC job was with the school district, which gave me a wide variety of exposure to equipment in just six month's time I otherwise might've had to work several years more to get.

Okay, that was 1980. Now it's out for the world to see I've been around while. Go back to my high school now, twenty-five years later, and the wood, metal, and auto shops are gone. Instead, it has become a magnet school to offer prep training for the sciences and none other than...maybe you'll guess it...LAW!
So, in twenty-five years, the focus shifted from the trades to law school and science. With that I have no problem as schools must adapt to the times, but they've left the trade students, to my knowledge, high and dry.

This past Friday we hosted a group of students from a local trade school in our central plant where I work. It didn't take me long to see which students were really enjoying the tour and hanging on my boss's every word, and those who were tapping their feet, wondering when was the soonest they could bail so they could hit the bar for a liquid lunch.
My boss and I later reflected on the morning and the group of kids and he ruminated over which ones he'd look to hire if he was in that position again. It wasn't hard for either one of us to see which ones we'd want to see a resume from in a few years.

So, having said all that, I think, no matter what the times may say, it still comes down to attitude and motivation. If a guy REALLY wants to be in this trade, all the negative flack and misperceptions just fall onto deaf ears. Truth is I've never really given much care if people disdain my blue collar or look down their nose at my livelihood. I've been around long enough to know that in most cases, I'd much rather be doing what I am because I'm happy doing it, whereas so many of them endure what they do, even if the money is good.

[joey791]

Yeah it is good Norm, we have our own training room which holds about 50 people, we keep file cabinets and about 10 shelves 6 foot long with literature and manuals, its rare and I hate to say this but I have seen it, our shop has more of I benefit more if I can teach you what I know than some places that have the I benefit more if I keep from teaching you something attitude.

[NormChris]

Shophound, you are absolutely correct. However, our industry is failing in several ways.

1. If students don't know of the opportunities in HVAC or that such a trade even exists they can't decide to enter our trade.

2. Even when they are aware of our existance we often fail to sell them on it. We have HVAC salespeople who can go out and sell an expensive DDC control system or a million dollars a year in equipment sales. Yet, we don't send those supersales people to our school classrooms to sell prospective employees on our trade.

3. Then, when some do decide to enroll in an HVAC school they are greeted by an instructor who is only teaching because he had to get out of a truck because he has a bad back. The instructor is not motivated, lacks knowledge, can't teach or spends most of his time telling shop tales and war stories.

When we change these three things we will start to gain ground again and HVAC contractors will be able to find quality help.

I have reached these conclusions after more than 30 years in this business, 18 of which I spent in an HVAC classroom.

Norm

[raiderfan]

I agree with norm but there is one more thing--- Money

How are we going to entice someone to spend a year or two of there life in a decent trade school and learn enough to be dangerous and then pay them 10 bucks to start. I did it and started at 6.00 in 85 and was in a company truck solo in a week but the reality is there is no instant pay off you have to pay your dues and Hell I loved the trade but there was a pay off in due time, maybe we are not presenting in right.

[dec]

Originally posted by tlcartman
it's all about the benjamins. everyone wants to come out of college making 100k a year. you and i know its not happening, but thats what they are led to belive. odds are that you will make more starting off after college than you will be making after 4 years in this trade. most of todays youth have never had to work for anything. they see their parents go off to work, yes even your kids, but they have no idea what their parents really do at work. they only see the results in the form of the paycheck. they think you go stay at your job 40 hours a week, and someone pays you just to be there. until companys realize what it cost to operate, and start charging accordingly, the outlook is not going to change anytime soon. the problem is not just limited to this trade either, it's in all trades. looking into my chrystal ball, i do see a time in the future when some trades will once again get the respect they deserve, but i just don't see it being this one, the electrician, or the plumber.

Im sorry but I have to agree with cartman. Now I can say that I really dont enjoy what Im doing and I have made a dam good living at it. I have just had a lot of years to set back and look at all there is out there and being This is all I have done pretty much all of my life I really did not get a chance to see what was out there job wise till later on in my life. Guess you could say learning the trade with blinders on staying focoused on this trade. Now when I got out of high school my parents offered to send me to college, I declined.....didnt know any better and was never really big on schooling. Little did I know that was not a very good idea but I can say anyone really sat me down and explained how you get way ahead in life. Just mainly more money is better and not the really way to make more money. Now take the guys who's dads were doctors ,lawyers , realitors, accountants. They seemed to have had a better grasp of how to get there faster, and that ment college. I have no complaint but now that I set back and look at some of the guys I was making tons more money years back I realize that they have more then surpased what I make nowdays and they have had a lot less wear an tear on their bodies and never came close to working the hours and weekends I did. Now a lot of that I know may be due to me never growing my business that large as far as employees but Im not to sure that wasnt a better route any how. Some guys large is better , some guys large is death. Its not always the same for everyone and everyone is differant. I just look at a lot of those college guys and wonder what if. Funny how i find a lot of them making big dollars not doing a whole lot but then they have the degrees that got them the large wage. What can I say....they did what it took. Now you take the high school kids that do set back and look at how hard the trades work and people they know making big bucks at a desk not breaking his back...... do you blame them? Like I say ....I love what Im doing but as far as the smartest thing or route .....I dont know and will probably never know the day that I drop dead. I cant say I havnt pondered it tho. lol

[derrick1623]

i didn't go to a trade school. i actually took 9 credits of computer information classes, while still in my senior year of high school.

my father led me into the apartment business, because i like to spend money, and i had to earn it first.

i watched a bunch of old-timers, with there "outside+30", or "cold as that beer" technology.

eventually i had my own property, as service manager, being self-motivated, i had taught myself how to find answers, and apply knowledge to what i was doing.

as i got tired of the sewage calls, and drywall repairs, always wanting to master hvac work... i was driven to a "one man show", he taught me some, his sparactic employees taught me some, i read ALOT, and found this site.

next week, i start with a reputable company, making more money, i'm already happier, and i will always strive to know everything there is to know about this entire trade.


sorry for the ramble, but i hope that the next generation of kids has someone to at least give them the IDEA that this is the field to go into. be it boy-OR-girl.

[ricm]

Yeah derrick1623... glad to see you take it to the next level. Having been indocterined into the trade in the mid 70's where electro-mechanical was state-of-the-art, things have changed significantly. HVAC/R is pretty much the most complex of most trades as we tend to span the entire gambit of all school learning starting from the sand-box. Math, physics, Language arts, Shop classes, Biology, and all that...

Some of the concepts seem so sureal, and complicated to our customers, that they almost think you are making it all up for a bigger bill. Sadly, some techs who 'muddle their way through some troubleshooting problems' sometimes stumble across a temporary fix of the situation - that will inevitably 'haunt' the customer later on...

We need to grow new techs right from the starting gate... teach them right. Not just old school principals... because back then... techs had calibrated fingers... too hot-too cold... there's tons more to it than that.

Glad to see you move on.

Oh... and other trades that read this... tin-bashers, plumbers, gas fitters... hats off to you guys 'n' gals in your trades... I've learned a zillion things from you and your craftspersons... Stuff I'd never seen.

From dirty fingernails, to electrical tape bandages, busted knuckles, bruised shins, burns that seem to never heal... you know you work for a living when it doesn't bother you much when you bump these injuries now and again. :o)

[DeltaT]

Interesting article yesterday about this.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/230177_entitlement27.html

[cracker]

I Read A Report....That They Took A Survey And Out Of 300 Possible Jobs.......HVAC Came In 297 On The List......We Were Beat Out Bye A Garbage Man?

[dec]

What did we Beat out? .......food tester for arab sheak ( looking for poison) , Car crash dummy , Micheal Jacksons next kid, tazzer test person, OJ simpsons next wife, sheetrocker ( realistically hate moving that crap when its in the way lol ), stuntman fot the show Jackass.

[Edited by dec on 06-28-2005 at 06:06 PM]

[cracker]

Yes.... All The Above....