More CO2 and Glycol Training

[eng&tech]

Here we go again. I keep reading threads about CO2 and all of the mis-information out there on the subject of CO2. This is not a new refrigerant. If you use it as a low temperature secondary fluid the pressures are around 220-240 PSIG operating pressure. If you use it as a secondary medium temp fluid your operatng pressures are around 400-440 PSIG. AND dont forget its .50cents a lb. There are about 25 system using CO2 as a secondary low temp fluid in the USA. There is one Cascade system using low temp CO2/glycol medium tmep. And 2 systmes located in the south that use CO2 as a medium and low temp refrgerant None of these systems are used in transcritical operation. If you are really intrested in how these systems work, HP will be conducting training classes around the country. I will post all up comming classes for those who want to come. It is not a Sales class. See the infor on the upcomming classes in Atlanta in March. My opinon is Ammiona is also a future option for supermarkets. I start taking my first Ammiona class on Monday. :ghug:


Hill Phoenix is having an upcoming Regional Training Program in Atlanta GA. This class is geared to the service tech and the installers, our goal is to teach in an open format all things secondary (glycol and CO2). The training is open to anyone intrested in learning this new technology. The classes are as follows:
March 16th 8:00-5:00 Sencondary glycol installation startup and troubleshooting. Great class for mech and tech


March 17th 8:00 - 12:00 Geroge Fischer pipe (Plastic refrigeration pipe glycol only) This class will certifiy you in the installation of GF piping.

March 17th 1:00 - 5:00 Compact Chiller Modules. Secondary system the use about 50 - 80 lb of HFC for the entire mediuim temp rack (Very Kool)

March 18th 8:00 - 1:00 CO2 installlation, Startup, and Troubleshooting.

If you mention that you saw this thread you will receive a 20% discount on the classes.

To registor please contact debbie.jones@hillphoenix.com or rusty.walker@hillphoenix.com

HP hats and screwdriver will be provided.

[gas_n_go]

Here we go again. I keep reading threads about CO2 and all of the mis-information out there on the subject of CO2. This is not a new refrigerant. If you use it as a low temperature secondary fluid the pressures are around 220-240 PSIG operating pressure. If you use it as a secondary medium temp fluid your operatng pressures are around 400-440 PSIG. AND dont forget its .50cents a lb. There are about 25 system using CO2 as a secondary low temp fluid in the USA. There is one Cascade system using low temp CO2/glycol medium tmep. And 2 systmes located in the south that use CO2 as a medium and low temp refrgerant None of these systems are used in transcritical operation. If you are really intrested in how these systems work, HP will be conducting training classes around the country. I will post all up comming classes for those who want to come. It is not a Sales class. See the infor on the upcomming classes in Atlanta in March. My opinon is Ammiona is also a future option for supermarkets. I start taking my first Ammiona class on Monday. :ghug:


Hill Phoenix is having an upcoming Regional Training Program in Atlanta GA. This class is geared to the service tech and the installers, our goal is to teach in an open format all things secondary (glycol and CO2). The training is open to anyone intrested in learning this new technology. The classes are as follows:
March 16th 8:00-5:00 Sencondary glycol installation startup and troubleshooting. Great class for mech and tech


March 17th 8:00 - 12:00 Geroge Fischer pipe (Plastic refrigeration pipe glycol only) This class will certifiy you in the installation of GF piping.

March 17th 1:00 - 5:00 Compact Chiller Modules. Secondary system the use about 50 - 80 lb of HFC for the entire mediuim temp rack (Very Kool)

March 18th 8:00 - 1:00 CO2 installlation, Startup, and Troubleshooting.

If you mention that you saw this thread you will receive a 20% discount on the classes.

To registor please contact debbie.jones@hillphoenix.com or rusty.walker@hillphoenix.com

HP hats and screwdriver will be provided.


Thanks for the info I collect screwdrivers and hats.

All jokes aside why do you think Amonia is going to be a popular refrigerant in supermarkets. are you talking about using Amonia in thw wharehouses or out on the salesfloor? I am skeptical that any chain would want to have an amonia store. Sounds like a law suit waiting to happen to me.

[FSE_]

gas_n_go
My thoughts are amonia will be used on the primary side and glycol as the secondary for medium and CO2 fluid as the secondary side for low temp.
There are several such systems in the US already like this. Mainly warehouse use but would be vrey functional for the whole market.

[jpsmith1cm]

gas_n_go
My thoughts are amonia will be used on the primary side and glycol as the secondary for medium and CO2 fluid as the secondary side for low temp.
There are several such systems in the US already like this. Mainly warehouse use but would be vrey functional for the whole market.

Exactly the system that I am envisioning, too.

This summer, I was talking to my local HP rep and made a comment to the effect of "when they ban HFCs, we're only going to be left with CO2 and Ammonia."

He didn't say anything, but got this funny look like he knew something.

As government regulations increase, Ammonia is THE alternative.

[smilies]

Highly recommend this class. Not for beginners though. You have to thoroughly understand DX refrigeration, gas laws, liquid behavior, etc...
If you really understand control strategies and energy penalties, the conversation gets fun.


PS: Don't call the grey pipe PVC:couchhide:

[FSE_]

Although I have to say, now that I am involved with systems, on a small market scale, as in Europe, I have no issues with Transcritical CO2. And in self contained cases, there is no issue at all. IMHO

[eng&tech]

I have to agree with FSE, I think we use a small amount of Ammiona on the roof in a machnice house as the primary DX refrigerant, cooling etiher propalenye glycol for medium temp or CO2 can be used as a secondary medium temperature fluid with a pressure range between 400 - 500 psig. Then on the low temperature we can use CO2 in a cascade sytem, and condense the CO2 at 20 degrees still have a discharge pressure of ~ 400- 500 pounds. The ammiona charge would be small enough that you would not need an enginner on site.

Now we have a system with NO HFC enviormentally benign, we have a refrigerant the cost .50 cents a pound. Everyone wins - the Customer, the contractors (Remodling store to meet GOV standers) OEMs (selling new equiment) and the planet!!

AND for those of you who dont belive these changes are coming and its all just a fad, Go ahead contiune to do business as usual, but for me I'm going to learn all I can about this new technioligy, and if it happens and Im one of the few dudes who can work on HFC DX systems, secondary CO2 and glycol
systems and AMMIONA!! I may finally get payed what I think I'm worth lolol:angel:

Dont get me wrong I have no idea who is right in this envoirmental agruement I've read white papers and articals for both sides and I've dicide that I dont care who right!! There gold in the color green and we all need to make a little of it!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Smilies,
It was great having you in class your contrubution was appricated. I understand about the new pic, but I like the old one:eek2:

[jpsmith1cm]

Eng&tech,

You seem like a guy who has a finger on the up-and-coming technology.

What is your take on the various non-refrigeration type of cooling systems like thermo-electric?

Do you think it has a chance or is it pie-n-the-sky dreaming?

[eng&tech]

Eng&tech,

You seem like a guy who has a finger on the up-and-coming technology.

What is your take on the various non-refrigeration type of cooling systems like thermo-electric?

Do you think it has a chance or is it pie-n-the-sky dreaming?

Thermo-electric cooling - Peltier Effect- Google this for more info

You heat one side of a electircal plate while cooling the other side. If you need to defrost or simple want to switch between heating and cooling just switch the polaraty the DC voltage.
The thing about thermo-electric cooling right now is the modules are small and costly, but the technoiligy works, We see it in car seats the have the ability to heat and cool the driver or the passager. Also I belive Coleman has some coolers that you can plug into your cig lighter for camping or ball games to keep beer cool They work using a DC power, I could see them working in small under-the counter prep tables. Nothing large,

There also seems to be growning intrest in Thermal-accostic cooling, I've just stated looking into that so I'm not sure how that works.

I worked with a couple of guys and we built a small condensing unit that ran off a car battery( DC Power) it had a Danfoss Copressor used in marine appicaltions and we were able to keep temp in a small meat case for about 3days before the battery lost its charge. We ran out of money and stop testing it, our goal was to recharge the batterys with solar power but we never got that far. ANyone want to invest:anyone:

[FSE_]

Don't forget about Acoustic refrigeration! But again, small scale and not practical at this time

[mspanky]

I have to agree with FSE, I think we use a small amount of Ammiona on the roof in a machnice house as the primary DX refrigerant, cooling etiher propalenye glycol for medium temp or CO2 can be used as a secondary medium temperature fluid with a pressure range between 400 - 500 psig. Then on the low temperature we can use CO2 in a cascade sytem, and condense the CO2 at 20 degrees still have a discharge pressure of ~ 400- 500 pounds. The ammiona charge would be small enough that you would not need an enginner on site.

Now we have a system with NO HFC enviormentally benign, we have a refrigerant the cost .50 cents a pound. Everyone wins - the Customer, the contractors (Remodling store to meet GOV standers) OEMs (selling new equiment) and the planet!!

AND for those of you who dont belive these changes are coming and its all just a fad, Go ahead contiune to do business as usual, but for me I'm going to learn all I can about this new technioligy, and if it happens and Im one of the few dudes who can work on HFC DX systems, secondary CO2 and glycol
systems and AMMIONA!! I may finally get payed what I think I'm worth lolol:angel:

Dont get me wrong I have no idea who is right in this envoirmental agruement I've read white papers and articals for both sides and I've dicide that I dont care who right!! There gold in the color green and we all need to make a little of it!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Smilies,
It was great having you in class your contrubution was appricated. I understand about the new pic, but I like the old one:eek2:

Sweet! Back to open-drive compressors. Unless someone decides to build one with stainless steel windings.

[flange]

I like the idea of seeing ammonia on a more regular basis, but i think there will be hurdles in bringing it to the mass market. First, there are issues with getting approval in local government due to lack of understanding, and perceived dangers in the event of a release. Second, its generally more costly for initial installation due to material requirements, socket weld steel pipe in lieu of copper tubing, etc. Overall, the ammonia systems we see are generally used for ice rink applications, with propylene as a secondary refrigerant. These are much more efficient than r22, and generally less issue to service, except if there is some issue with high discharge superheat which causes plant issues, specifically with oil seperators. To me, its kinda old time refrigeration, and i would love to see more of it. as far as co2, there are systems using that already in place for comfort cooling and server cooling.

[eng&tech]

I like the idea of seeing ammonia on a more regular basis, but i think there will be hurdles in bringing it to the mass market. First, there are issues with getting approval in local government due to lack of understanding, and perceived dangers in the event of a release. Second, its generally more costly for initial installation due to material requirements, socket weld steel pipe in lieu of copper tubing, etc. Overall, the ammonia systems we see are generally used for ice rink applications, with propylene as a secondary refrigerant. These are much more efficient than r22, and generally less issue to service, except if there is some issue with high discharge superheat which causes plant issues, specifically with oil seperators. To me, its kinda old time refrigeration, and i would love to see more of it. as far as co2, there are systems using that already in place for comfort cooling and server cooling.

I agree there are some hurdles, when we talk about ammonia. But I think they can be overcome. For one the ammioia portion would be factory built and welded. The contractor would install copper or ABS pipe form the machine house to the cases in the store. The important part of this would be to keep the ammionia on the roof and away customer in the store.With the secondary fluid (gylcol or CO2) going into the cases. Education would be key not only of the techs and the installers but for the insecptors and the customers. The amonut of ammonia would be very small, but I think the biggest problem is the precived safety issues and Im talking about contractors and techs. They are already talking about a phase down of HFC's (artical in "Refrigeration News")As far as gylcol systems in the Supermarkets there are over 600 system in use right now and the stores that use them love the reduce maintenace. There are many CO2 system operating in supermarkets today and I think that number will only grow.

And remember if we end up with ammiona in supermarkets it will be the goverment that pushes in that direction.

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with the undipulted data that tells us Global Warming is not true, polar bears are not wearing swimsuits, and it has all been a bad dream. :anyone:

[flange]

the type of system you describe is similiar to how many ice rinks are run. the biggest problem in that is the local ordinances. many local govenrments dont understand ammonia refrigeration, and are very cautious about use of it anywhere near populous. in addition, they require catch tanks for a release from a relief valve etc. fire departments are cautiosu as well . i agree that the plants are relatively safe, more efficient etc, as we work in them at times now, and do our own welding on the systems as required. honestly running a low temp glycol solution would probably give them better temperature control and flxibility. most ice rinkswe see use schedule 80 pvc for distribution and typically run fifteen degree brine or glycol.

[jpsmith1cm]

the type of system you describe is similiar to how many ice rinks are run. the biggest problem in that is the local ordinances. many local govenrments dont understand ammonia refrigeration, and are very cautious about use of it anywhere near populous. in addition, they require catch tanks for a release from a relief valve etc. fire departments are cautiosu as well . i agree that the plants are relatively safe, more efficient etc, as we work in them at times now, and do our own welding on the systems as required. honestly running a low temp glycol solution would probably give them better temperature control and flxibility. most ice rinkswe see use schedule 80 pvc for distribution and typically run fifteen degree brine or glycol.

As the HFC laws change, the local codes will have to change to accomodate more viable alternatives, don't you think?

[eng&tech]

Flange,
You make a couple of good points, oil speration with ammonia, and leaks.

These are things that can be engineered,I envision a system that would have very small charge of ammonia on the roof top as a primiry refrigerant, cooling CO2 and sending the CO2 into the store for both medium and low temp. This gives you a totally HFC free store (refrigeration wise), after we do that maybe we tie in the AC system.

I think the bigest problem will be the preseption of what ammonia is. As a industry we will need to teach supermarket tech that working with ammonia is as safe as any other refrigerant, with good energy numbers.

The downside of brines in a supermarket is when you have a leak the salt attackes any glavinzed metal in the store or mechine house (lived that nightmare). And using any PVC below 32 make me nervious. We use Georg Fischer for our propalene glycol stores.

[eng&tech]

As the HFC laws change, the local codes will have to change to accomodate more viable alternatives, don't you think?

They will have no chose but to change, the problem with the goverment is they take a techinical problem and make it political. :oops:

[jpsmith1cm]

They will have no chose but to change, the problem with the goverment is they take a techinical problem and make it political. :oops:

Take that political stuff over to ARP...

:angel:

I'll see ya there...

Not disagreeing with you, though.

[bryan l]

Flange,
And using any PVC below 32 make me nervious. We use Georg Fischer for our propalene glycol stores.

...Should I chime in on GF Rusty? talk about making someone nervous...

BTW we need to talk about using steel butterfly valves with GF... I need you to hit someone with that gray PVC of yours ;) lol

[ammoniadog]

Why is CO2 better than HFC's? I thought CO2 was the evil "greenhouse gas" and the whole point of disliking HFC's had something to do with it indirectly causing the earth's CO2 levels to rise due to it being less efficient. If the environmentalists hate CO2 so much, why would they want us to use CO2 as a refrigerant?

Ammonia will never catch on more than it is now for the same reason that nuclear power never will. Everyone says how great and environmentally friendly it is but no one wants it any where near them.

[bryan l]

CO2 is the benchmark for all other gases that affect greenhouse.

Carbon Dioxide (R-744) has a global warming potential (GWP) of 1. CO2 is the standard all other GWP statistics are based on.

Refrigerant GWP
R-507 3,900
R-410 1,725
R-22 1,600

So to put it simply, if you were to have a leak of 1lb of the above refrigerants, you would have to release their GWP value worth of CO2 to equal the same damage. As you can see some gases are WAY worse than others... lets get rid of the cfc's because they are making a hole in the ozone...but lets use a gas thats 250% worse on the environment. :oops:

[Phase Loss]

what about?!

R-40 Methyl Chloride
R-611 Methyl Formate
R-764 Sulphur Dioxide
R-170 Ethane
R-290 Propane
R-600 Butane
R-601 Isobutane
R-1150 Ethylene

All legitimate refrigerants!

[eng&tech]

CO2 is the benchmark for all other gases that affect greenhouse.

Carbon Dioxide (R-744) has a global warming potential (GWP) of 1. CO2 is the standard all other GWP statistics are based on.

Refrigerant GWP
R-507 3,900
R-410 1,725
R-22 1,600

So to put it simply, if you were to have a leak of 1lb of the above refrigerants, you would have to release their GWP value worth of CO2 to equal the same damage. As you can see some gases are WAY worse than others... lets get rid of the cfc's because they are making a hole in the ozone...but lets use a gas thats 250% worse on the environment. :oops:


Bryan

Preach it brother you have hit the nail on the head. Yes CO2 is a greenhouse gas but it is the best alternative to what we have now and review what Bryan has witten.

Look up the history of refrigerants and you will see that at the turn of the century, it was like the wild west of refrigerants any natural gas that could be used was used. PHASELOSS mentioned many of them, and most of them were flammable, toxic or both. Then DuPont comes up with the synthetics R-12, R-502 R-22 safe non toxic, non flammable and most importantly cheap!!!! and we made the switch to DuPont and drank the koolaide. Poor CO2 got caught up in this and we decided that it also was evil. Then came the Montreal Protolcal and R-12 is now bad, Dupont come up with R-134a. We find out R-134a is not so great (lack of capacity) so we have to use more electric to get the same amount of cooling. Then we find out that all the HFC are bad. Does anyone remember when 404a first came out and Dupont said that the price of 404a and 507 would come down after a few years and they recoved there R&D cost. (yea right, sell that to the oil companys) Dupont's new refrigerant of choose is 1234fy look it up and then be afaird. If some one can help me post some artical on this new refirgerants I will.

Now we can go back to the future and resue natual refrigerant R-744 (CO2) at 50 cents a pound. This is basicly the same gas that makes Beer (how bad can it be:couch:) and is used in fountian drinks.

And dont discount ammoina I just took my frist ammoina class at Lanier Tech in GA and it was great and we can get the change low enough that it would be as safe as any of the refrigerant we currntly use, and no HFC.

[RayD8630]

CO2 is the benchmark for all other gases that affect greenhouse.

Carbon Dioxide (R-744) has a global warming potential (GWP) of 1. CO2 is the standard all other GWP statistics are based on.

Refrigerant GWP
R-507 3,900
R-410 1,725
R-22 1,600

So to put it simply, if you were to have a leak of 1lb of the above refrigerants, you would have to release their GWP value worth of CO2 to equal the same damage. As you can see some gases are WAY worse than others... lets get rid of the cfc's because they are making a hole in the ozone...but lets use a gas thats 250% worse on the environment. :oops:

And when I saw Garth Dennison talk he basically said the exact same thing. And that a lot of drop in's and replacements for R-22 are way less efficient than R-22 itself. SO that means longer run times for machines. Machines running longer consume more power. Longer running machines mean a power plant somewhere is working way longer. That too can harm the environment more.

People need to be educated on this stuff. Really without going too tin hat here I think this is companies and the Governments trying to make money.

[bryan l]

I dont think its Companies and the Government that is trying to make money (they are happy to rake it in). I think its the bleeding hearts of the "Green movement" that think they are saving the planet but are actually doing the opposite. The groups without understanding the whole picture blindly push and push to get rid of something with no clue what we will replace it with after the fact and claim that the industry will develop solutions out of necessity... but in the example of CFC's we came up with a solution that was later found to be better but much worse. Its a case of the blind leading the retarded.

I offer you the example of this stupidity. Search THIS document for the Prius and the Hummer... what one do you think is better and worse on the environment??? You need to look at the BIG picture. (for more info you have read some of the info on CNW Research (http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/).)

[flange]

many years ago, the company i worked for at the time did A LOT of work at dupont sites. this was back in the days when having a few beers and a sandwich at lunch was still ok. there was one particular site where everyone went to the only bar around for lunch. construction guys went at eleven thirty, executives at twelve thirty. at any rate, this was also at the start of all the safety rules at dupont sites, so we found quickly that if we needed to do any high work, we did it at lunch qwhile no one was watching, then went to lunch. being there while the suits were ther, often times we heard things that we probably shouldnt. we heard statements like" if they knew what was in 123, they would never buy it" or," these new refrigerants are going to make us tons of money since we own the patent rights" etc. dont kid yourself into thinking this is about anything other than making money. do you really thing they actually care about the environment? big business is about big money. if you dont believe it, go to work for any major company for a few years, and see what drives the way you work, doing right by the client, or doing right by the shareholders? please. as far as ammonia, i like it and so do our clients who use it in lieu of r22. as a pipefitter, i like the way the plants are built. steel pipe, socket weld fittings. as far as pvc for secondary refrigerants, we see either propylene glycol solutions, or calcium brine running at fifteen degrees every day in ice rinks run in schedule 80pvc with very few issues.

[bryan l]

If it can make a $ companies will embrace "green" in a heartbeat and pound the drum... Its not done from a social consince point of view. But the "green" movement is not being pushed forward by the corporations... they will just enjoy the ride.

[jpsmith1cm]

In case anyone was really wondering, I have figured out what shade of green the Green movement really cares about.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/United_States_one_dollar_bill,_obverse.jpg&imgrefurl=http://obambi.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/dollar/&h=821&w=1880&sz=1463&tbnid=g0pVKVDSjZkKKM:&tbnh=66&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddollar%2Bbill&hl=en&usg=__DrfZ4aNF8ZSYqr52WNPCnUmbyok=&ei=45-KS8WeBsmUtgepn8ywDw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&ved=0CAkQ9QEwAA

Larger denominations are preferred, but they will take any that they can get.

[jpsmith1cm]

Don't know why that didn't work....

Supposed to be a dollar bill.

[750valve]

Flange,
You make a couple of good points, oil speration with ammonia, and leaks.

These are things that can be engineered,I envision a system that would have very small charge of ammonia on the roof top as a primiry refrigerant, cooling CO2 and sending the CO2 into the store for both medium and low temp. This gives you a totally HFC free store (refrigeration wise), after we do that maybe we tie in the AC system.

I think the bigest problem will be the preseption of what ammonia is. As a industry we will need to teach supermarket tech that working with ammonia is as safe as any other refrigerant, with good energy numbers.

The downside of brines in a supermarket is when you have a leak the salt attackes any glavinzed metal in the store or mechine house (lived that nightmare). And using any PVC below 32 make me nervious. We use Georg Fischer for our propalene glycol stores.

We have an R717/R744 cascade system in Sydney with one of the major chains over here and it is exactly as you have described above, its been in and running for about 24 months and has very little issues from the ammonia side (none from the Co2 side either), the ammonia charge is contained to 2 x individual 50kg systems, 1 x Bitzer screw compressor running each, a PHE providing the heat exchange between the Co2 and Ammonia fed from a LP Vessel - its basically a critical charge ammonia system, the oil return system is for all intensive purposes automatic and is based on 2 stages of oil separation and level sensors in the oil pot coming off the LP vessel which open a solenoid dumping oil back into the suction line via pressure drop (it has a needle valve in series to protect comp if solenoid stuck open and liquid allowed to return to suction line - the needle valve meters and we monitor suction superheat and drive an alarm if need be).

I will see if I can dig up any pics.

The Ammonia plant is in a container on the roof of the store with an air scrubber for any potential plantroom leakage and of course a leak detection system. The Co2 provides direct cooling to LT an MT loads via DX for the LT and pumped liquid (LR) to the MT systems.

[dirtyboy103us]

lets start by saying this stuff about supermarkets going green is not going to happen and the reason is safety and labor cost and the willingness of contractors to invest huge amounts of money in training guys who are just there for the pay check and gone the next day and thats all

i have found this site has a few guys willing to read and try to get the knowledge but that's it, like about 1% of the industry(and thats a high figure) most guys don't have the passion shown here with this core group so the industry will not head in that direction take a look at HP glycol meat cases they have in stores now and how many guys can actually work on them with proficiency ( sweet bay and pubix went with them in the beginning and now what) are they still using them or did they return to DX I don't know

i know guys right now that do ammonia that can't read a meter, all they are is pipe fitters that repair leaks in a major system and make decent cash but to go ahead and try to convert a guy who is there just for his pay check and most are, no way

and how many guys at your shop are on drugs or are drunks or just plain facking lazy, that will work out great with one spill for the market, and it gets shut down. Oh yeah people in the neighbor picketing the store because they have to live next door to the threat, oh yeah

I love the idea of new technology and reading it and working on it, but not all have that ambition

I have been invovled with markets for a long time and seen what the trend is
putting 1 guy in a truck or making him the stupid-visor with halfway understanding on the sequence of operation and 5 to 10 guys with no clue fumbling around doing maintenance and looking like they're there to fix everything till all sheet hits the fan and then the suits show up and the 1 guy that knows his sheet shows up and figure's out wtf is going on and then the suits argue who's going to pay for the food loss and who's fault it is

and you think the GOV. will let you get away with we only have xxx-LBS of this on site so we don't have to hire engineers OH YEAH that law and all the money you saved will be changed so fast it will make your head spin .... THEY WILL GET THEIR MONEY one way or the other and the market value on ammonia will go from .50 to 5.00 per LB. so there goes all your savings

[bryan l]

So our trade will stay where it is because you think that the ignorance of "mechanics" that work around YOU wont be able to work on the equipment???

I'm sorry, I guess we need to stop what we are doing... Your right, and we should have known better... I will call Hill first thing Monday morning as well as Bitzer, Copeland, Hussmann, and a ton of other companies working on these projects and tell them they are wasting their time and money... The guys in Florada wont be able to work on the equipment, and its dangerous.

Oh BTW watch out for the protesters picketing outside every Coke Machine location and all Mercedes dealerships in the next couple years... They may EXPLODE AND KILL EVERYONE!!!!!! :patriot::tussor:

[750valve]

So our trade will stay where it is because you think that the ignorance of "mechanics" that work around YOU wont be able to work on the equipment???

I'm sorry, I guess we need to stop what we are doing... Your right, and we should have known better... I will call Hill first thing Monday morning as well as Bitzer, Copeland, Hussmann, and a ton of other companies working on these projects and tell them they are wasting their time and money... The guys in Florada wont be able to work on the equipment, and its dangerous.

Oh BTW watch out for the protesters picketing outside every Coke Machine location and all Mercedes dealerships in the next couple years... They may EXPLODE AND KILL EVERYONE!!!!!! :patriot::tussor:

Absolute GOLD! Well said.

[eng&tech]

[QUOTE=dirtyboy103us;6110212]lets start by saying this stuff about supermarkets going green is not going to happen and the reason is safety and labor cost and the willingness of contractors to invest huge amounts of money in training guys who are just there for the pay check and gone the next day and thats all

First things first,, to-date know one is working on Ammiona that I've heard of...Let keep our focus on what i started and that is CO2/gylcol TRAINING...

Dirtyboy... You have to be the owner of the shop !!!!! I travel all over the country training tech on all type of system mostly gylcol medium temperature system there are over 600 of them and the tech that work on them are jamm up. Yes we have some s&*t heads but that is not the overwheelming majority. Store are going green that why we have so many gylcol system. CO2 is not danagrous it is very safe system and no they wont increase the price of Co2 remember we use it in every Mcdon and Taco Bell in the contry for our beverages. There are two manufactor that a making these systems and in 3 years there are 30 of them.

I'll make a deal with you come to the training class in Atlanta this month and LEARN about the systems before you dog out MY profession and the men I work with.

You sound like my grandpa who said " The machine will never replace my HORSE":ghug:

[eng&tech]

Bryan1.... If I send you some articles can you post them for me??

Congrats on the Hockey game. ;)

[bryan l]

You bet, you still have my work email?
the game was a nail biter

[dirtyboy103us]

Dirtyboy... You have to be the owner of the shop !!!!! I travel all over the country training tech on all type of system mostly gylcol medium temperature system there are over 600 of them and the tech that work on them are jamm up. Yes we have some s&*t heads but that is not the overwheelming majority. Store are going green that why we have so many gylcol system. CO2 is not danagrous it is very safe system and no they wont increase the price of Co2 remember we use it in every Mcdon and Taco Bell in the contry for our beverages. There are two manufactor that a making these systems and in 3 years there are 30 of them.

I'll make a deal with you come to the training class in Atlanta this month and LEARN about the systems before you dog out MY profession and the men I work with.
You sound like my grandpa who said " The machine will never replace my HORSE":ghug[


look i have been at this along time and the trend of hiring the cheapest guy you can get in a truck and have him learn from the other guy is how training goes and if (he) is afraid of you and your ambition you get nothing been there done that for years and behind the butt heads

look at the case controllers from cpc and that technology (GONE) and saw how many techs didn't understand it one guy in the company got the training and held onto it for dear life and the store's get the sheet end of the stick
how about the variable compressor set up still using that by chance The more complicated the more training needed which the supermarket industry will not provide for no matter what the saving is going to be just won't pay the mechanics to learn

I personally would love the class but the cost and using it would be difficult at the time ( no clients with that set up ) and hard to sell something like that
with no real or working knowledge of the system

600 store and maybe that many guys you have trained is a drop in the bucket for the industry and the guys you train are the guys in the right seat in their company's and that's the one guy i was talking about and he will hold on to that training for dear life and not pass it along because thats his meal ticket

finding guys like you who have passion for this industry and you can here it their words and are actively seeking knowledge are diamonds in the rough as i have worked for a few contractors and as a in-house mechanic and seen whats out there you get the cream most times

[eng&tech]

I feel your pain and you bring up good points, case controllers are gone, but rack controller (i thought they all sucked when I first saw one IPC) are here to stay. Gylcol systems have been used in commerical HVAC forever,Gylcol is easy to work on and strart up, so is CO2. Look a the big market chain in your area FL they are swithing to all gycol. Food Lion is on there 5th CO2 store. If the GOV starts taxing HFC we will have no choose. Look at what they did in Calif just recently (I'll post later) Every Coke machnie in the world will be CO2 by 2015. And to your point about training the last country to get these machine will be the USA.

Ive said many times the "Trade School" have let us down they are 95% residental AC.

Look at what 750valve is saying they are doing in Australia. Its guys like us and other on this site that must lead the way brother!!!!

[yroy]

Back to CO2 training....

Just got the Parker (Sporlan) Catalog 744, january 2010 entitled 'subcritical CO2 innovations for supermarkets'. Can't find a link on their website yet.

[FSE_]

All good points. Dirtyboy, sometimes it may not be that the "one" guy holds onto the knowledge. Sometimes, it is that the others don't want to learn it, as you said, just there for a paycheck. Hill Phoenix has put together a great learning center designed specifically for the supermarket industry. That is a commitment from a mfg. and not only to contractors but to the end users.
And trust me, I am not here to toot their horn. :oops:
Technology is going to keep changing and tech's have to keep up. Believe me, we are not going to go back to single units with a low pressure controls.


"aut viam inveniam aut faciam "
"Either I shall find a way, or I shall make one"

[eng&tech]

I hope this Calfornia EPA

[Dowadudda]

I agree with most of what Dirtyboy has to say. There real world on the street facts as far as I have experienced. My experience dovetails his and I hear him loud and clear.

All the same. I wanna go and learn it so I can keep working on the new cool stuff so the others can work on the old dirty crap. LOL.

[Phase Loss]

Not all techs aspire to be Super Stars :) never have and never will.

Weather it be our current refrigeration technology or new (re-born) refrigeration work. The Super Stars will remain Super Stars and the guys who want to be anything less will remain where there at.

they are either lazy or just lack the mental capacity.

At the end of the day we need those guys too. they do the following.

1. Blowout drain lines
2. De-ice cases
3. Replace fan motors
4. Keep us BUSY

[jpsmith1cm]

We, the men who come here regularly, are a different type of technician.

Just getting a paycheck isn't enough for us.

We have something deeper that drives us to get it RIGHT.

To an extent, I agree with dirtyboy and 4Ds. Most guys are in this for a paycheck and nothing more.

Does that mean we should stop innovation for those guys? Maybe HP, Hussmann et al should just go back to straight 4 compressor racks with Low pressure controls and LLSV for temperature control.

Just because everybody knows how those work. :oops:

I say screw those losers. If they can't keep up, run 'em over and keep this technology train rolling.

[Phase Loss]

I say screw those losers. If they can't keep up, run 'em over.

I enjoy this quote to no end. :patriot:

A true quote to live by IMHO.

[bryan l]

ATLANTA, Dec 03, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) --
KO | Quote | Chart | News | PowerRating -- Days before the United Nations summit on climate change begins in
Copenhagen, The Coca-Cola Company and its bottling partners today
announced that 100 percent of their new vending machines and coolers
will be hydrofluorocarbon-free (HFC-free) by 2015. Coca-Cola is
committing to use its scale to aggregate demand and encourage supply as
a means of accelerating the transition to HFC-free refrigeration
equipment. This announcement is a direct result of work with Greenpeace
that began in 2000, and a demonstration that phasing out the use of HFCs
is a tangible and near-term action corporations can take to protect the
climate.
The transition to HFC-free refrigeration will reduce the equipment's
direct greenhouse gas emissions by 99 percent. A recent peer-reviewed
report by top scientists shows that HFCs will be responsible for between
28 percent and 45 percent of carbon-equivalent emissions by 2050 if
society reduces carbon dioxide while leaving HFCs unchecked. Eliminating
HFCs in the commercial refrigeration industry would be equivalent to
eliminating the annual greenhouse gas emissions of Germany or Japan.
"Climate change is real and the time to act on solutions is now," said
Muhtar Kent, Chairman and CEO of The Coca-Cola Company. "Greenpeace has
played a critical role in raising our awareness about the need for
natural refrigeration. Our announcement today demonstrates a commitment
to use our influence in the marketplace to drive innovation and help
shape a low-carbon future."
This step by Coca-Cola will help accelerate a market shift in commercial
refrigeration away from HFCs. The Coca-Cola Company has invested more
than $50 million in research and development to advance the use of
climate-friendly cooling technologies. In 2010, The Coca-Cola Company
and its bottling partners will purchase a minimum of 150,000 units of
HFC-free equipment, effectively doubling the current rate of purchase to
enable alignment with an interim goal to purchase 50 percent of all new
coolers and vending machines without HFCs by 2012.
The Company and its bottling partners have approximately 10 million
coolers and vending machines in place today around the world, comprising
the largest element of the Coca-Cola system's total climate impact. As a
result of the commitment to eliminate the use of HFCs in this equipment,
carbon emission reductions will exceed 52.5 million metric tons over the
life of the equipment -- the equivalent of taking more than 11 million
cars off the road for one year.
"We welcome Coca-Cola's commitment to help tackle climate change; large
enterprises have both an opportunity and responsibility to change the
game and Coca-Cola's action leaves no excuse for other companies not to
follow," said Kumi Naidoo, Executive Director, Greenpeace International.
Coca-Cola currently utilizes two HFC-free solutions. Hydrocarbon
refrigeration is used in smaller refrigeration equipment and carbon
dioxide (CO2) is used in larger equipment. CO2 is
a safe, reliable and energy efficient alternative with positive
characteristics as a refrigerant. It does not deplete the ozone layer
and it is 1,430 times less damaging to the climate than a typical HFC.
Already, as a direct result of Coca-Cola's supply chain engagement, a
major supplier has communicated its intention to build a dedicated CO2
compressor production facility, helping to meet the growing demand for
HFC-free refrigeration options throughout the industry.
"Addressing climate change requires leadership and collaboration," said
Dr. Rajendra Pachauri, Chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change. "Just days away from the negotiations in Copenhagen,
this announcement by Coca-Cola and Greenpeace demonstrates that
investments in low-carbon technologies can make business sense."
This announcement is a direct result of discussions with Greenpeace that
began in the run-up to the 2000 Sydney Olympics. Greenpeace challenged
Coca-Cola to go HFC-free in all of the equipment it supplied to the
Games. By the Torino Games in 2006 and the Beijing Games in 2008, the
Company was using all HFC-free technology at Olympic venues. For the
past five years, the relationship between Greenpeace and Coca-Cola has
become increasingly cooperative as both sought a cost-effective
alternative to HFCs.
"At Coca-Cola, we are deploying our scale and working with suppliers to
deliver cost effective alternatives to HFC, for us and for others," said
Rick Frazier, Vice President, Supply Chain, The Coca-Cola Company.
"Greenpeace increasingly works with businesses to make fundamental
manufacturing and sourcing changes by connecting regulation, economies
of scale and supply chain security," said Amy Larkin, Director of
Greenpeace Solutions. "Coca-Cola's commitment today runs ahead of
regulation and takes some fear out of rapid change."
Coolers and vending machines impact the climate in three ways: through
direct energy use (operating the machine), through chemicals used in the
machine's insulation foam, and by leakage or improper end-of-life
disposal of the refrigerant gas used in the cooling system. In addition
to its refrigerant gas commitment, Coca-Cola developed a proprietary
energy management system (EMS) that delivers energy savings of up to 35
percent and has placed over 1.7 million of these units around the world.
In 2006, the Company completed the transition to HFC-free insulation
foam for all new purchases of refrigeration equipment. Together,
HFC-free insulation and HFC-free refrigerant will generate 99 percent
fewer direct greenhouse emissions than traditional equipment.

[Andy Schoen]

Back to CO2 training....

Just got the Parker (Sporlan) Catalog 744, january 2010 entitled 'subcritical CO2 innovations for supermarkets'. Can't find a link on their website yet.
Mmmmm... neither can I. I'll work on this tomorrow. ;)

[smilies]

Where is my badge, eng&tech? After I gave you a hat and everything.:couchhide:

While what dirtyboy says is true in almost every shop, it's true for every other trade, every other profession. It takes all kinds to make the world go round, and I intend to be the cream instead of the fat. Bring it on, nothing to scared of.

[eng&tech]

If they can't keep up, run 'em over and keep this technology train rolling.

Amen!!!

Smilies paper work is at GF, should have your badge in couple of weeks

Next week is the training in Atlanta I hope some of you will be there.

[shaun66]

Amen!!!

Smilies paper work is at GF, should have your badge in couple of weeks

Next week is the training in Atlanta I hope some of you will be there.

training is great, well worth the time

fired up cascade CO2 rack this week, been great week

[bryan l]

shaun66

How much fun was replacing your ice machines (fluid coolers)? :p

[shaun66]

shaun66

How much fun was replacing your ice machines (fluid coolers)? :p

was mech contractor, not my concern, but did have a great laugh

[Dowadudda]

what is the cost of this class? Is it one day? I might sign up.

[eng&tech]

what is the cost of this class? Is it one day? I might sign up.

Dow,

See first post for length or training, but CO2 is one day. I maybe in Madison WI in April (wont know unitl next week) the cost is $249.00 with a 20% discount for HVAC-talk members. I would love for you to attend, the classes are more of a discussion than a lecture.

[dirtyboy103us]

when are you going to be in fla
for 200.00 bucks or so i would go for that
C.O.S.S. was way more money and three days

[eng&tech]

when are you going to be in fla
for 200.00 bucks or so i would go for that
C.O.S.S. was way more money and three days

Trying to put somthing to togather in your hood, this summer or maybe in the fall. Hope you can make it.

[Phase Loss]

Plan on visiting the LA region some time?

[eng&tech]

Plan on visiting the LA region some time?

Either LA or Sacremento. in September I think

[jpsmith1cm]

Just took the CO2 training with Rusty yesterday.

You've got some VERY good stuff going on and the future of supermarket refer work is an interesting and exciting prospect.


BTW: I LOVED the Danfoss video that was part of the presentation. You can understand this stuff in theory, but seeing it happen in the pressure vessel is totally different.

[icemeister]

Just took the CO2 training with Rusty yesterday.

You've got some VERY good stuff going on and the future of supermarket refer work is an interesting and exciting prospect.


BTW: I LOVED the Danfoss video that was part of the presentation. You can understand this stuff in theory, but seeing it happen in the pressure vessel is totally different.

Is this the Danfoss CO2 Phase Changes (http://www.danfoss.com/NR/rdonlyres/8553DC2E-A3EE-4B4C-8FEA-7E5FE40A6543/0/co2phasechanges128Kbit.wmv) video?

It's quite interesting indeed! :)

[pecmsg]

Is this the Danfoss CO2 Phase Changes (http://www.danfoss.com/NR/rdonlyres/8553DC2E-A3EE-4B4C-8FEA-7E5FE40A6543/0/co2phasechanges128Kbit.wmv) video?

It's quite interesting indeed! :)

I liked the part where it all but disappeared in the 60’s only to return.

I remember seeing something similar to this using R-11 and glass tubing when I was younger.

So this is our future. There’s a lot for the new/old guy’s to learn.

Now mighty Icemeister; Can you get it translated to *F? :LOL:

[jpsmith1cm]

Is this the Danfoss CO2 Phase Changes (http://www.danfoss.com/NR/rdonlyres/8553DC2E-A3EE-4B4C-8FEA-7E5FE40A6543/0/co2phasechanges128Kbit.wmv) video?

It's quite interesting indeed! :)

Yes, Ice, that's the one.

Like I said, it is one thing to understand something in the theoretical realm, but to see it happen brings it to a whole new level.


Pecmsg,

While I don't know all of the temperatures mentioned in the video, the critical temp of R-744 is 87.8 degrees F @ 1070 PSI and the triple point is -69.8 degrees F @ 60 PSIG.

We had one of those R-11 trainers, but it never touched on the critical point and the triple point. Those were always 'theoretical' points that never happened. With CO2, these are very real things that could happen fairly easily.

[icemeister]

...Now mighty Icemeister; Can you get it translated to *F?

I'm sorry pecmsg, I'm having a Sputnik moment, recalling back to my 5th grade class frantically learning Metrics and Russian with Miss Melons...

...What was it you needed to know? ;)

[jpsmith1cm]

I liked the part where it all but disappeared in the 60’s only to return.

I remember seeing something similar to this using R-11 and glass tubing when I was younger.

So this is our future. There’s a lot for the new/old guy’s to learn.

Now mighty Icemeister; Can you get it translated to *F? :LOL:

Actually, you could hit the ground running on a system like this with no problems and a short adjustment period.

The best in this trade wouldn't have a problem walking in, wandering around it, spending a little time figuring it out and fixing it.

The rest will still fumble, bumble and NOT fix anything.

[MikeySq]

The rest will still fumble, bumble and NOT fix anything.

haha funny:LOL: