Christian Nation?

[printer2]

I wanted to get a list of treaties that the US is a signature to the list seems to be much larger than I thought. As with most searches you end up stumbling on something completely unexpected. So maybe someone can use this for idle chatter at a party.


Documented proof that the United States WAS NOT FOUNDED as a 'christian' nation.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2dIlQU/www.opednews.com/maxwrite/print_friendly.php%3Fp%3Dopedne_ed_tubbs_071007_th e_us_was_never_int.htm



ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/bar1796t.asp

[glennac]

That if I may say so is pure garbage printer and you know it. You are quoting a treaty signed with the the North Africa states along what was known as the Barbary Coast — Tripoli, Tunis, Algiers, and Morocco.

Language was in the treaty so as not to "offend" the sensibilities of the Muslim rulers of these states. This was done simply so the raiding of our ships along the coast would cease. Face saying words were put into the treaty to get those Muslim fanatics to sign it.

No harm done and now this rapid anti Christian nut makes a blog and uses this piece of BS to claim that we are not a Christian nation. Try to dig something else up besides this BS printer. I think you are beginning to start acting like geer now. Thank you very much.

[Tool-Slinger]

That if I may say so is pure garbage printer and you know it. You are quoting a treaty signed with the the North Africa states along what was known as the Barbary Coast — Tripoli, Tunis, Algiers, and Morocco.

Language was in the treaty so as not to "offend" the sensibilities of the Muslim rulers of these states. This was done simply so the raiding of our ships along the coast would cease. Face saying words were put into the treaty to get those Muslim fanatics to sign it.

No harm done and now this rapid anti Christian nut makes a blog and uses this piece of BS to claim that we are not a Christian nation. Try to dig something else up besides this BS printer. I think you are beginning to start acting like geer now. Thank you very much.
Sure, USA was founded by a bunch of muslims and tree worshipers, sheesh, that one was WAY over the top.

[printer2]

How is this garbage? I would think some of the people at the signing of the Declaration of Independence could have been involved with this treaty. We are only talking 15-20 years hence.

As the article states

Paragraph 2 of Article VI of the US Constitution states,


. . . all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land . . .

You would think the Constitution would be fresh in their minds and they would not slip up and make a mistake. I would not think to call one of your treaties a piece of BS, even in much simpler times as when it was written.

Just because history states that the US was not founded as a Christian nation, it does not mean that it cannot grow into being one. Boy it is real easy to get your knickers in a knot.

[printer2]

Sure, USA was founded by a bunch of muslims and tree worshipers, sheesh, that one was WAY over the top.

No, the treaty was between the USA and a bunch of muslims and tree worshipers. You are having as hard a time understanding that as Glen.

[Tool-Slinger]

The usa was founded by christians, not so much as a 'christian state'... are you actually disputing this?

[Jwise]

The Declaration of Independence; The Paris Peace Treaty of 1783, and the Constitution. These documents give conclusive proof that America is a Christian nation. One does not need a law degree or a degree in history to grasp this truth. It is obvious to anyone who does not have an agenda.

The Paris Peace Treaty was the document which formally ended the Revolution and granted the United States independence from Great Britain. In a real sense, the United States formally became a nation on September 3, 1783. When the United States became a nation, it was done in the “name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.” The preamble to the Paris Treaty states, it is based upon the “Holy and undivided Trinity.” The concept of the holy Trinity is unique to Christianity. This statement means the United States was founded on the Christian faith. http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/paris.html

The Constitution honors the Christian Sabbath. The President was given 10 days to sign a bill into law. The counting of the 10 days does not include the Sabbath. This is found in Article 1, Section 7, and Clause 2. http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/constitution/

The Declaration has many references to God throughout the document. The most famous one is that men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/decind.html

When the Constitution was completed on September 17, 1787, it was signed by the delegates then to be ratified by the states. The delegates signed the Constitution in the “Year of our Lord.

When the United States became a nation, it was done in the “name of the most holy and undivided Trinity. The Paris Peace Treaty was the document which formally ended the Revolution and granted the United States independence from Great Britain. In a real sense, the United States formally became a nation on September 3, 1783. http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/paris.html

[glennac]

How is this garbage? I would think some of the people at the signing of the Declaration of Independence could have been involved with this treaty. We are only talking 15-20 years hence.

As the article states

Paragraph 2 of Article VI of the US Constitution states,



You would think the Constitution would be fresh in their minds and they would not slip up and make a mistake. I would not think to call one of your treaties a piece of BS, even in much simpler times as when it was written.

Just because history states that the US was not founded as a Christian nation, it does not mean that it cannot grow into being one. Boy it is real easy to get your knickers in a knot.

You need help printer. The treaty was about them not attacking our ships and those "words" in the treaty were meaningless "fluff" to appease the radical Muslims only and had no real meaning. If you think so then you and that crazy nut who wrote the blog need to get real.

The elder Bush said he was "sorry" about our P3 anti submarine warfare plane violating China's air space. We did not and he was not sorry. That was said to save face for the Reds so we could get our plane and crew back. Same thing in that treaty. Get real printer. Try something else this is a dud. Thank you very much.

[RoBoTeq]

The United States Constitution states emphatically that the U.S. was never intended to be any one particular faith of people. There were Christians, Deists, Jews and Muslims along with agnostics, mystics and atheists at the beginning of the United States as a free and independant nation.

Most of the Americans involved in the development of the U.S. Constitution, Amendments and Bill of Rights either were Christian or had Christian upbringing. This is very well shown in our early government buildings and in much of the language of laws. All of mankinds laws throughout history have been based on laws from some theological faith or another. So, Christianity was a major force in the developement of the United States, but the United States is not a Christian nation nor has it ever been or been intended to be.

In the early stages of the developement of the Colonial States, each state determined how it would handle religous issues. Maryland, for example, was created so that the oppressed Catholics would have a place in the colonies to practice their faith freely. That is why one of Maryland's nicknames is "The Free State". With the way the Maryland laws were written, that anyone of any religious faith may practice that faith and own land in Maryland, Maryland also attracted Jews and became the second largest Jewish area in the world, behing New York, for some time (until 1948 when the country of Israel was formed).

[printer2]

In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch- treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc.,

and of the United States of America,


to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish to restore, and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory intercourse , between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal advantages and mutual convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual peace and harmony; and having for this desirable end already laid the foundation of peace and reconciliation by the Provisional Articles signed at Paris on the 30th of November 1782...


Seems to me God was on the European side of the ocean and the US gets a brief mention here.

Would like to talk more but a good movie just started.

[glennac]

Ah, agreeing with printer on Christianity in the US robo, now I see.:gah: Thank you very much

[ga-hvac-tech]

I believe the USA was intentionally formed with NO official religion, on purpose. The other side of the coin... or the rest of the story if you prefer... is that most of the folks were either Christian or brought up with Christian values.

The 'great experiment' called the USA was the idea of freedom without restrictions... yet most of the folks understood the ground rules because they were mostly the same faith.

Many a pole will say that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the USA population professes to be Christian... Google it.

They are the 'silent majority'... just wish they would also vote their faith.

[Tool-Slinger]

I believe the USA was intentionally formed with NO official religion, on purpose. The other side of the coin... or the rest of the story if you prefer... is that most of the folks were either Christian or brought up with Christian values.

The 'great experiment' called the USA was the idea of freedom without restrictions... yet most of the folks understood the ground rules because they were mostly the same faith.

Many a pole will say that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the USA population professes to be Christian... Google it.

They are the 'silent majority'... just wish they would also vote their faith.
Closer to 85%, agree with point,

[k-fridge]

I believe the USA was intentionally formed with NO official religion, on purpose. The other side of the coin... or the rest of the story if you prefer... is that most of the folks were either Christian or brought up with Christian values.

The 'great experiment' called the USA was the idea of freedom without restrictions... yet most of the folks understood the ground rules because they were mostly the same faith.

Many a pole will say that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the USA population professes to be Christian... Google it.

They are the 'silent majority'... just wish they would also vote their faith.

Bingo.

The US was absolutely formed on Christian values, and our early laws were also based on them.

However...the framers were wise enough to know that there was danger in the possibility of any religion, including Christianity, taking control of the government. (reference Church of England) At the same time, they believed strongly in protecting the free exercise of religion. To accomplish both safeguards, they drafted the first amendment. It's language clearly prevents any and all religions from controlling government; conversely, it guarantees freedom of exercise to all religions.

The US population is majority Christian; so it can be considered a Christian nation in that regard only. But her government is religion neutral.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Bingo.

The US was absolutely formed on Christian values, and our early laws were also based on them.

However...the framers were wise enough to know that there was danger in the possibility of any religion, including Christianity, taking control of the government. (reference Church of England) At the same time, they believed strongly in protecting the free exercise of religion. To accomplish both safeguards, they drafted the first amendment. It's language clearly prevents any and all religions from controlling government; conversely, it guarantees freedom of exercise to all religions.

The US population is majority Christian; so it can be considered a Christian nation in that regard only. But her government is religion neutral.

Well said Fridge!

I think there might have been some education this evening... :rules:

[Jwise]

Well said Fridge!

I think there might have been some education this evening... :rules:

I agree, well said Fridge. I should have been more specific in my post. :oops: Our Government is and should be religion neutral. However the founders of this nation and most all of those who came here in the beginning were indeed Christian. I intended to point out we are a Christian nation because of the Christians who live in it. Not because of out Government. However if our Government had not been created with Christian values, things would be a lot different today.

[RoBoTeq]

Ah, agreeing with printer on Christianity in the US robo, now I see.:gah: Thank you very much
I agree with those who are correct, not right....or left

[RoBoTeq]

Closer to 85%, agree with point,
One poll I see says 83%. I agree that this still does not make the U.S. a Christian nation, which I would not want it to be. I also agree that it would be nice if that 83% voted responsibly according to their alleged faith.

[ga-hvac-tech]

This has been said over and over, I will repeat it again so we are all clear on it:

The USA is a Christian nation because a large majority of the citizens are Christians and hold Christian values.

The USA is NOT a Christian nation because the government is tied to, or recognizes, or supports, any specific religion or faith.

The freedom to worship as one chooses (so long as that freedom does not take away the same rights of another) is one of the things our Constitution guarantees... and one of the things that makes this country GREAT!

Look at many other countries where there is a state religion... or worse the government and a specific religion are merged... Do you really want that? Like a nation where women are property because the religion dictates it? Or a state where it is illegal to do certain things (like work) on Saturday? Or a nation wherein one can be prosecuted and jailed for either practicing a different faith or not practicing the state faith...

Folks; get a grip: NOT having a 'state sponsored religion or faith' is a HUGE blessing! Now quit the squabbling over petty legal terms and concepts... and count your blessings!

The USA is a Christian nation because the large majority of citizens are Christians... and that is the reason the USA works as well as it does: Because the large majority believe in similar morals. Too much diversity is not a good thing if one wants national stability.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I agree with those who are correct, not right....or left

Spinmeister... :grin2:

[Some Dude]

Bingo.

The US was absolutely formed on Christian values, and our early laws were also based on them.

However...the framers were wise enough to know that there was danger in the possibility of any religion, including Christianity, taking control of the government. (reference Church of England) At the same time, they believed strongly in protecting the free exercise of religion. To accomplish both safeguards, they drafted the first amendment. It's language clearly prevents any and all religions from controlling government; conversely, it guarantees freedom of exercise to all religions.

The US population is majority Christian; so it can be considered a Christian nation in that regard only. But her government is religion neutral.

Good post....



Is it me or is printer like some anti freedom, socialist , anti American sleeper cell that continues to get worse?
Now he is posting crap like Mike used to, although perhaps written more appealingly same socialist propaganda.
More unprovoked attacks by the northern left.
Honestly, you make Canadians look bad.

[glennac]

One poll I see says 83%. I agree that this still does not make the U.S. a Christian nation, which I would not want it to be. I also agree that it would be nice if that 83% voted responsibly according to their alleged faith.

Beg to differ robo but why wouldn't you want this to be close to at least nominally 100% Christian nation. Just think no ACLU, no Muslims, no arguments over Nativity displays, no concerns about "sensitivity" of those of different beliefs. We have been going down hill since the 60's by allowing the rest of the world including non Christians to immigrate here. Prior to LBJ at least 90% of all immigration came from Northern Europe which was mostly Christian. Thank you very much

[ga-hvac-tech]

Just because we as a nation do not wear our majority faith like a cheap overcoat does not mean we do not believe it.

As I seem to remember in Scripture:

It is not whether we say the right things... it is whether we have Christ-like love in our hearts for our neighbors. I would much rather trade the 'blue laws' and nativity scenes for a better sense of community and generally higher average moral character. (Moral character that says one does not steal something because it is wrong... not because one will get caught).

IMO the 'good old days' (if they were really good) when folks did not lock their houses and a good samaritan act would not be followed by a lawsuit; were more the basis of folks WALKING their Christian faith... than TALKING their Christian faith.

Hypocracy is not saying something different than you are; It is living something different than you profess. In other words: WALK it, do not just TALK it.

[wolfstrike]

if people of the time would have thought the Federal government could get involved with religious affairs the Constitution would have never been ratified.

the country was still arguing whether the country should be radically Christian or accept the neutral view of the First Amendment.

different Christian sects controlled states and i don't know of any leader that didn't attend a church.

[RoBoTeq]

Beg to differ robo but why wouldn't you want this to be close to at least nominally 100% Christian nation. Just think no ACLU, no Muslims, no arguments over Nativity displays, no concerns about "sensitivity" of those of different beliefs. We have been going down hill since the 60's by allowing the rest of the world including non Christians to immigrate here. Prior to LBJ at least 90% of all immigration came from Northern Europe which was mostly Christian. Thank you very much
Sorry Glenn, but I believe that God loves all of mankind whether we love God or revere God properly or not. Since I pretty much detest most Christian religions as being the offspring of the RCC which is more heavily influenced by Paganism then it is by Jesus Christ in it's actions, I certainly don't want to live in a country that does not accept all beliefs in God.

The only religion that has caused more hatred and grief and murders in the world aside from Islam is Christianity. That does not make Jesus Christ wrong, it makes Christian based religious organizations wrong. I thank God that our countries forefathers saw not only the flaws in religion overall but also the flaws in themselves as men. For that reason, our forefathers had the foresight to understand that no man should have the right to choose the beliefs of another.

[Some Dude]

Sorry Glenn, but I believe that God loves all of mankind whether we love God or revere God properly or not. Since I pretty much detest most Christian religions as being the offspring of the RCC which is more heavily influenced by Paganism then it is by Jesus Christ in it's actions, I certainly don't want to live in a country that does not accept all beliefs in God.

The only religion that has caused more hatred and grief and murders in the world aside from Islam is Christianity. That does not make Jesus Christ wrong, it makes Christian based religious organizations wrong. I thank God that our countries forefathers saw not only the flaws in religion overall but also the flaws in themselves as men. For that reason, our forefathers had the foresight to understand that no man should have the right to choose the beliefs of another.

I would substitute Christianity with Catholicism.

[RoBoTeq]

I would substitute Christianity with Catholicism.
Protestant religions have done their share of hateful things and have created enough deaths worldwide to earn their position as having been the cause of hate and murder. It takes two to tango, and Protest/Catholic conflicts all over Europe were not just Catholic aggressions. Check out the Huguenots of France. Also, why did the Catholic IRA come into existance if not for the persecutions of the Protestants?

[printer2]

Good post....



Is it me or is printer like some anti freedom, socialist , anti American sleeper cell that continues to get worse?
Now he is posting crap like Mike used to, although perhaps written more appealingly same socialist propaganda.
More unprovoked attacks by the northern left.
Honestly, you make Canadians look bad.

Why does this post not surprise me. What happened, did I burst your bubble? How is this crap. The document is real, product of the US of A. How is it socialist? It has nothing to do with the left or the right unless you are saying Christians are equated with the right.

I, as well as most, liked k_fridge's summation of the separation of religion and state that was drafted into your social fabric.

I just thought it might have been an interesting historic anecdote that no one but Glen would have commented about but they guys took it and came up with a good analysis.

I would like to add that the fathers of your country had Christian values to guide them but also British law with a smattering of French thrown in. At the time there was much going on about the nature of government and they used this knowledge to come up with a system that they thought would work. It would be interesting to discuss what changes they would have made if they could see where you are now. Maybe a topic for a future discussion.


Getting worse? Attack from the Northern Left? Shoot I am politically more in the middle than anything else. I have tore into real lefties on another site, doubt if you would make them welcome here.

[hearthman]

When fanatics of one religion use the teachings of that religion to justify their extremeist subjugation, persection, and killing of others, they are no longer 'of that religion'. I know of no major religion that openly condones the murder of 'infidels' except Islam. If some whack-o claims to be conducting hateful crimes against another person in the name of their religion, they are deceivers and should be rebuked/ stopped. Again, Islam, however, rewards you for such activities.

The predominant religion of a country sets the tone of the laws of that land. However, evil men will continue to abuse religion as a means to increase their power over weaker men. Always have, always will. Christianity teaches you to love one another irregardless of your personal feelings or perceptions about them. When we hate, we go against Christ. However, when those who would destroy Christ's Church rise up, we are charged with defending the Church and Christ's Gospel. Now, attacks on Christianity may come openly such as by Muslims or more insidiously such as by Progressives looking to pervert the Truth and diminish it into oblivion subtlely. Think about this as you read the postings on ARP by the non-Believers.

True Christians understand that Christianity is not a 'religion'---it IS the WORD of GOD through his SON administered by his HOLY SPIRIT. Religions are more like clubs where people of a like mind hang out and chat. Clubs have rules written by men who are of this world. Christianity is written by the Creator of the Universe and is not of this evil world. Christianity is the supernatural love of the Creator being taught to his creation. We, as evil men, try to substitute our values for His and that, my friend is why this is a fallen world.

The Lord's Prayer reads "...THY kingdom come, THY (not my) will be done on earth as it is in heaven...." It's not about our personal wills but God's.

Hearthman

[Some Dude]

Protestant religions have done their share of hateful things and have created enough deaths worldwide to earn their position as having been the cause of hate and murder. It takes two to tango, and Protest/Catholic conflicts all over Europe were not just Catholic aggressions. Check out the Huguenots of France. Also, why did the Catholic IRA come into existance if not for the persecutions of the Protestants?

The I.R.A. was formed to oppose British rule.

[Some Dude]

None of this really matter anymore anyway, Christians are losing their rights faster and faster and other religions are gaining power under socialist leadership that brand anyone who believes differently guilty of a hate crime.

Morality is declining, homosexuality is now normal with heterosexuality being tolerated.
Islam has a foothold in Europe and is coming this way quickly, reading and applying the holt scriptures can now have you labeled as a kook or again find you guilty of a hate crime in this crooked and twisted generation.

Sorry if i was a little rough on you printer, i understand you try and play devils advocate sometimes but you do seem top be leaning a little more to the left on some of your posts.

[bootlen]

When fanatics of one religion use the teachings of that religion to justify their extremeist subjugation, persection, and killing of others, they are no longer 'of that religion'. I know of no major religion that openly condones the murder of 'infidels' except Islam. If some whack-o claims to be conducting hateful crimes against another person in the name of their religion, they are deceivers and should be rebuked/ stopped. Again, Islam, however, rewards you for such activities.

The predominant religion of a country sets the tone of the laws of that land. However, evil men will continue to abuse religion as a means to increase their power over weaker men. Always have, always will. Christianity teaches you to love one another irregardless of your personal feelings or perceptions about them. When we hate, we go against Christ. However, when those who would destroy Christ's Church rise up, we are charged with defending the Church and Christ's Gospel. Now, attacks on Christianity may come openly such as by Muslims or more insidiously such as by Progressives looking to pervert the Truth and diminish it into oblivion subtlely. Think about this as you read the postings on ARP by the non-Believers.

True Christians understand that Christianity is not a 'religion'---it IS the WORD of GOD through his SON administered by his HOLY SPIRIT. Religions are more like clubs where people of a like mind hang out and chat. Clubs have rules written by men who are of this world. Christianity is written by the Creator of the Universe and is not of this evil world. Christianity is the supernatural love of the Creator being taught to his creation. We, as evil men, try to substitute our values for His and that, my friend is why this is a fallen world.

The Lord's Prayer reads "...THY kingdom come, THY (not my) will be done on earth as it is in heaven...." It's not about our personal wills but God's.

Hearthman

Exactly, Hearth. Right on target.

[printer2]

Sorry if i was a little rough on you printer, i understand you try and play devils advocate sometimes but you do seem top be leaning a little more to the left on some of your posts.

No problem. Sometimes I move more to the left just for discussion sake. As someone once said, 'I think he just likes to argue.' Besides I think I fulfill my function when I can get Glen and Robin to both go :gah: in the same thread, even better with the same post.

[printer2]

__________ (insert religion here) is written by the Creator of the Universe and is not of this evil world.

If you ask any follower of a religion they will say the same of their own religion.

[bootlen]

If you ask any follower of a religion they will say the same of their own religion.

And they would be lying. Intellectually honest folks agree.

[RoBoTeq]

Hmmm, Satan opened the intellect can of worms to Adam and Eve, so I'm no so sure I'm comfortrable with "intellectual honesty".

I think I would be more comfortable with Godly honesty.

[ga-hvac-tech]

When fanatics of one religion use the teachings of that religion to justify their extremeist subjugation, persection, and killing of others, they are no longer 'of that religion'. I know of no major religion that openly condones the murder of 'infidels' except Islam. If some whack-o claims to be conducting hateful crimes against another person in the name of their religion, they are deceivers and should be rebuked/ stopped. Again, Islam, however, rewards you for such activities.

The predominant religion of a country sets the tone of the laws of that land. However, evil men will continue to abuse religion as a means to increase their power over weaker men. Always have, always will. Christianity teaches you to love one another irregardless of your personal feelings or perceptions about them. When we hate, we go against Christ. However, when those who would destroy Christ's Church rise up, we are charged with defending the Church and Christ's Gospel. Now, attacks on Christianity may come openly such as by Muslims or more insidiously such as by Progressives looking to pervert the Truth and diminish it into oblivion subtlely. Think about this as you read the postings on ARP by the non-Believers.

True Christians understand that Christianity is not a 'religion'---it IS the WORD of GOD through his SON administered by his HOLY SPIRIT. Religions are more like clubs where people of a like mind hang out and chat. Clubs have rules written by men who are of this world. Christianity is written by the Creator of the Universe and is not of this evil world. Christianity is the supernatural love of the Creator being taught to his creation. We, as evil men, try to substitute our values for His and that, my friend is why this is a fallen world.

The Lord's Prayer reads "...THY kingdom come, THY (not my) will be done on earth as it is in heaven...." It's not about our personal wills but God's.

Hearthman
Good post Hearth! I am in agreement (and of the same faith) with you.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Hmmm, Satan opened the intellect can of worms to Adam and Eve, so I'm no so sure I'm comfortrable with "intellectual honesty".

I think I would be more comfortable with Godly honesty.

Please define Godly Honesty and how/where do I find it?

[daytonafan]

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson
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"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other." -John Adams
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I think our country was founded by religious men who were smart enough to realize that FREEDOM of religion was vital. Just because this country was founded by Christians doesn't mean it is a "Christian" nation. The very beauty of the United States is the ability to choose whether we want to worship or not.

[bootlen]

Please define Godly Honesty and how/where do I find it?

Robo finds it in the complete works of Jules Verne.

[RoBoTeq]

Please define Godly Honesty and how/where do I find it?
Godly honesty is what God considers to be honest. It is found in scripture. It is how God relates to us. There is no room for deceit in Godly honesty. There is no ommision of truth in Godly honesty. Godly honesty is conveyed without thought, so there can be no deceit.

[RoBoTeq]

The I.R.A. was formed to oppose British rule.
No. The IRA was formed to oppose the British Home Rule of forcing Irish Catholics to not worship as Catholics.

[glennac]

.......... There is no ommision of truth in Godly honesty. Godly honesty is conveyed without thought, so there can be no deceit.

Well I guess that kinda leaves you out robo.:bump: Thank you, thank you very much

[RoBoTeq]

Robo finds it in the complete works of Jules Verne.
Ahhh, sarcasm. Isn't that what ga-tech claims to be repulsed by?

Maybe it's the criticism that is offensive.

I do enjoy Jules Vernes stories however.

[glennac]

No. The IRA was formed to oppose the British Home Rule of forcing Irish Catholics to not worship as Catholics.

Please someone pick me up off the ground. I kinda feel like all Christian faiths while differing in our beliefs should stand a common ground against the dangers and evils which confront us all in the new WWIII which is upon us. You constantly amaze me robo.

While a Baptist I have no animosity against other Christian denominations as long as they support our country and the Constitution. Be nice if all were Southern Baptist though.:) Thank you very much.

[RoBoTeq]

Well I guess that kinda leaves you out robo.:bump: Thank you, thank you very much
You still upset about my pointing out that you are a bigot?

One thing that was learned here is now buddy, buddy the Germans and the Muslims were during the WWI and WWII. They were so buddy-buddy that Hitler convinced the Persian ruler to change the name of his country to Iran. This is because the Iranians, or better known as teh Aryans, whould be honoring the Aryans that Hitler proposed all Germans wrer of the stock of.

In other words; Germans and Islamists are all the same people.

[RoBoTeq]

Please someone pick me up off the ground. I kinda feel like all Christian faiths while differing in our beliefs should stand a common ground against the dangers and evils which confront us all in the new WWIII which is upon us. You constantly amaze me robo.

While a Baptist I have no animosity against other Christian denominations as long as they support our country and the Constitution. Be nice if all were Southern Baptist though.:) Thank you very much.
You can naively think anything you want, but various denominations of Christianity have battled many times over the centuries.

[glennac]

You still upset about my pointing out that you are a bigot?

One thing that was learned here is now buddy, buddy the Germans and the Muslims were during the WWI and WWII. They were so buddy-buddy that Hitler convinced the Persian ruler to change the name of his country to Iran. This is because the Iranians, or better known as teh Aryans, whould be honoring the Aryans that Hitler proposed all Germans wrer of the stock of.

In other words; Germans and Islamists are all the same people.

That is pure BS robo and you know it. Hitler allied with the Bosnian Muslims because he needed everyone he could get in uniform to fight the commies. Now I don't know about this whole Persian thing which you are talking about. But believe me Hitler never considered the Muslims as the same as the White race. Perhaps you should read Mein Kamph. Hitler only used the Bosnian Muslims to fight the communist Serbs so he could free up more German troops to fight the Soviet Union. Thank you very much.

[glennac]

You can naively think anything you want, but various denominations of Christianity have battled many times over the centuries.

Never disputed that nor ever will but I just think we should stop it and concentrate on our real enemy the Muslims. I though I made that clear. Thank you very much

[ga-hvac-tech]

Godly honesty is what God considers to be honest. It is found in Scripture. It is how God relates to us. There is no room for deceit in Godly honesty. There is no ommision of truth in Godly honesty. Godly honesty is conveyed without thought, so there can be no deceit.

So can I go with the idea that Scripture is Gods Word to his Children (believers), and also to folks that want to be believers (and His Children)?

[RoBoTeq]

Never disputed that nor ever will but I just think we should stop it and concentrate on our real enemy the Muslims. I though I made that clear. Thank you very much
Agreed. We need to stay focused on Muslims and those who are closely related to Muslims. Since both Iranians and Germans lay claim to Aryan ancestry, and Germany has sided with Islamic nations in the recent past, we need to keep an eye on all Germans as well.

[RoBoTeq]

So can I go with the idea that Scripture is Gods Word to his Children (believers), and also to folks that want to be believers (and His Children)?
Absolutely. We just need to be very careful that we are not being deceived as to the intent of God's Word in scripture. Remember, going to a cool place can put you in two very different environments.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Absolutely. We just need to be very careful that we are not being deceived as to the intent of God's Word in scripture. Remember, going to a cool place can put you in two very different environments.

Agree with first idea!

Please define more clearly the second idea...

Thought: Could one see 'interpretation' 'A' in a specific Scripture when they were a 'new' Christian, and then possibly see intgerpretation 'B' years later when their understanding of God is much deeper?

[RoBoTeq]

Agree with first idea!

Please define more clearly the second idea...

Thought: Could one see 'interpretation' 'A' in a specific Scripture when they were a 'new' Christian, and then possibly see intgerpretation 'B' years later when their understanding of God is much deeper?
I think I failed with my example. What I am trying to say is that what is written in scripture could be interpretted in different ways even though there is really only one intention.

Especially in the ancient languages that scripture was finally written down in, there were not as many words in those languages as there are in today's English. Since scripture was originally a spoken tradition with oral influxes to establish intent, putting scripture into the written word can have the same affect that writing on the Internet can have. If I write "don't be such a jerk" and don't put a smiley face on the post, that could be taken as my feeling that you are truly a jerk or that I am playfully telling you to stop beine silly.

I have come to believe through what I believe to be the Holy Spirit, that much of scripture's intent has been tainted by those wishing to change the teaching of scripture without changing any actual words.

John 14:6 (New International Version) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This passage is too often quoted as a free standing quote with no context leading up to or explaination. As a singular stand alone passage, it can be manipulated to mean what ever the teacher of the verse wants to make it seem to mean. The most prevelant interpretation of John 14:6 is that Jesus is saying that only Christians can go to God. That is not at all what John 14:6 is saying.

If we look at the preceeding pasages, John 14:1-5 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" We see that Jesus is not yet explaining that He and God the Father are the same spiritually, but the mortal Jesus who they had lived with and learned from is different. This must have been a difficult concept for those who actually knew Jesus as a mortal man, so there is no doubt that it is a difficult concept for those of us who never knew Jesus as a mortal man.

Then John 14:6 hits the nail on the head with; "6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Even though this is the resurrected Jesus Christ speaking, Jesus continues to speak as a mortal and as God. So, no one comes to the Father except through the Father....as Jesus Christ; they are one and the same.

The passages just after John 14:6 make this factor more clear; 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." It appears that Jesus is letting his audience understand that His resurected being is not the same as His mortal being. Notice the usage of the term "knew me", as in the past tense. Jesus at this point is not quite the same as Jesus the mortal man.

[B]8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. So, here we have it; Jesus and God are one and the same, so obviously to get to the Father, we must go through Jesus. Since God "is", or as we can understand it best, has always been, and Jesus spiritually has been since the beginning of, presumably the Creation of the Univers, thwn all who have died even before Jesus Christ the mortal walked the Earth, have still gone through Jesus to get to the Father.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I think I failed with my example. What I am trying to say is that what is written in scripture could be interpretted in different ways even though there is really only one intention.

Especially in the ancient languages that scripture was finally written down in, there were not as many words in those languages as there are in today's English. Since scripture was originally a spoken tradition with oral influxes to establish intent, putting scripture into the written word can have the same affect that writing on the Internet can have. If I write "don't be such a jerk" and don't put a smiley face on the post, that could be taken as my feeling that you are truly a jerk or that I am playfully telling you to stop beine silly.

I have come to believe through what I believe to be the Holy Spirit, that much of scripture's intent has been tainted by those wishing to change the teaching of scripture without changing any actual words.

John 14:6 (New International Version) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This passage is too often quoted as a free standing quote with no context leading up to or explaination. As a singular stand alone passage, it can be manipulated to mean what ever the teacher of the verse wants to make it seem to mean. The most prevelant interpretation of John 14:6 is that Jesus is saying that only Christians can go to God. That is not at all what John 14:6 is saying.

If we look at the preceeding pasages, John 14:1-5 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" We see that Jesus is not yet explaining that He and God the Father are the same spiritually, but the mortal Jesus who they had lived with and learned from is different. This must have been a difficult concept for those who actually knew Jesus as a mortal man, so there is no doubt that it is a difficult concept for those of us who never knew Jesus as a mortal man.

Then John 14:6 hits the nail on the head with; "6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Even though this is the resurrected Jesus Christ speaking, Jesus continues to speak as a mortal and as God. So, no one comes to the Father except through the Father....as Jesus Christ; they are one and the same.

The passages just after John 14:6 make this factor more clear; 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." It appears that Jesus is letting his audience understand that His resurected being is not the same as His mortal being. Notice the usage of the term "knew me", as in the past tense. Jesus at this point is not quite the same as Jesus the mortal man.

[B]8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. So, here we have it; Jesus and God are one and the same, so obviously to get to the Father, we must go through Jesus. Since God "is", or as we can understand it best, has always been, and Jesus spiritually has been since the beginning of, presumably the Creation of the Univers, thwn all who have died even before Jesus Christ the mortal walked the Earth, have still gone through Jesus to get to the Father.

Robin, you are seeing God as He really is!!! I am glad for you. I have little doubt that you indeed know God and are one of His Children.

One thing I might suggest in your interpretation of the passage above; Before Christ died and rose again... an indwelling of the HS (Holy Spirit) was a temporary thing to accomplish a specific task. Of course, there was a spiritual connection with God/Father in Christ (see Scripture above) all the time he was in a mortal body... but the disciples did not have the Spirit much (other than the couple of weeks they were sent out to do ministry stuff...).

I truly believe the ONLY way one could understand Scripture as you are portraying is through the indwelling of the Spirit to show you... Now if the Disciples (pre death/resurrection) did not have the Spirit... they could not understand as we take it for granted because we do have the Spirit.

The indwelling Spirit is probably one of the most profound gifts a Christian can have. We have debated before at ARP about why some unbelievers do not understand scripture.... well I believe it is because they do not have the indwelling Spirit to interpret it to them. It is not an intellectually understood thing... it is a revealed thing.

Back on that subject of the indwelling Spirit being one of the most profound gifts from God to Christians... Well, actually there is one more gift God gave Christians... how about dieing to one's old self, and the Spirit of Christ replacing that 'old life' within me... See the passages in my sig line...

[RoBoTeq]

The indwelling Spirit is probably one of the most profound gifts a Christian can have. We have debated before at ARP about why some unbelievers do not understand scripture.... well I believe it is because they do not have the indwelling Spirit to interpret it to them. It is not an intellectually understood thing... it is a revealed thing.

Back on that subject of the indwelling Spirit being one of the most profound gifts from God to Christians... Well, actually there is one more gift God gave Christians... how about dieing to one's old self, and the Spirit of Christ replacing that 'old life' within me... See the passages in my sig line...
I actually become emotional when I read things like this because it is on one hand so amazingly true while on the other hand so impossible to explain to someone who has never experienced learning by revelation, or being filled with the Holy Spirit. It is such a euphoric feeling when we just "understand" about God without having actually been taught in any traditional manner.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I actually become emotional when I read things like this because it is on one hand so amazingly true while on the other hand so impossible to explain to someone who has never experienced learning by revelation, or being filled with the Holy Spirit. It is such a euphoric feeling when we just "understand" about God without having actually been taught in any traditional manner.

My friend, you are as right on target as I have heard in quite a while!

THX for sharing your faith at a deeper level!

I too get a 'rush' feeling sometimes when I remember all the wonderful gifts God has given me (well, us Christians). And we did nothing to deserve it... all we did was humbly bend the knee (let go of pride in self) and accept what God/Father has already done for us!

Not meaning to be negative or judgmental, but anyone that is not interested in receiving all this from God... well they are just missing out on one of the (probably THE) best things that ever happened to the human race!!!