HVAC SCHOOLS?

[coffey]

i NEED HELP ON CHOOSE THE RIGHT SCHOOL TO GO TO. iS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE THAT HAS GRADUATED FROM VATTEROTT AND IS IT WORTH THE $20,000 THEY SAY IT IS THANKS. COFFEY

[R12rules]

$20K to attend a tech school???

I'm in the wrong end of this business ....

Are you serious .... they want that much? They GET that much!?

[mccool]

Wow, your system sucks. Someone should push for for government control on HVACR training, in Canada it is almost free, get yourself signed to apprenticeship and attend school every 1200 hrs to reach next level, whilst receiving employment benefits. At least thats the way its supposed to work. The tuition used to be free but is rising to several 00's but that should be redeemable if ya do well.
Still just a license to learn, but at least its country wide except in Queer old Quebec. Where the men are men and the goats are nervous.

[mattttk]

I don't know anything about Vatterott-
I went to UTI for HVAC/R in Chicago, But they
moved the HVAC/R program to Phoniex but anyway-
It was a good program imo.
They treat it more as a job than school.
I work with alot of techs that went to local
vo tech schools, They hated it & They didn't
really get anything for their $ except screwed.

[hvacdiva]

Ferris State is WAYYYYYY better than Vatterott and Cheaper too!!!!!



[Edited by Boss on 03-26-2004 at 08:01 AM]

[hvacyoungin]

ATI IN VA Beach is a good school that is were i'm at now and it not to much i think i'm paying like 15,000 or less http://www.aticareers.com/academics/hvac.htm

[btexpress]

Ferris State College (University, now)in Big Rapids, MI is where I got an Associate's degree in RHAC Technology It was ALOT cheaper back in 1979....Plus they had/have? a great placement office.

[smilies]

The HVAC program at the U.T.I in Phoenix has been canned. They are finishing up with the students they have now. That program was $13K

[gschra11]

Well that depends a lot on what you want out of the school. Do you want to be a tech? Design/build engineer? Get into controls? Do you want to be in a union or non-union specifically? Need multiple connections to the industry to help get you a job? There are multiple routes. Also, perhaps less important on the priority list, but should still be considered: Do you want a campus? Do you want a small communter school? Big city? Small town? Each school has its different "flavor" and it is hard to tell which one is best for you unless you actually go visit for yourself. To me, schools are a lot like cars... they need a test drive to meet with the staff and students at that school. NO MATTER WHAT YOUR TASTES ARE: Talk to the students that go there, talk to the teachers that teach there, and interact with as many people there as possible.

That being said, Ferris has been an ideal choice FOR ME. I liked the fact that it was a full-blown university, with many students. I liked the people, the dedication of the staff, and the students who had genunine HVAC interest. The department is small, and they know what they are talking about. There are 3 HVAC student organizations on campus that allow for involvement, leadership, and industry networking.

The school offers a 4-year degree in HVACR engineering technology. It is geared towards those wanting to get into design/build, controls, and engineering. Before you can get the Bachelor's in engineering, (4-year) you must get the Associates' (2-year) so that you can grasp the TECHNICAL end of this industry BEFORE you try to engineer it. It makes better sense this way. I used to be a Mechanical Engineering major at the University of Missouri-Rolla. After I discovered that ME had nothing to do with HVAC directly, (MEs actually graduate without knowing what a chiller is...) I found out about Ferris' engineering degree and came up here.

The degree is a 2+2 degree... You go 2 years for your Associates, then an additional 2 years for your Bachelor's, making your total education time 4 years.

There are 2 other schools in the nation that have that degree: The Pensylvania College of Technology, and Vatterott, St. Ann, MO. Each school is well-known in the industry. I liked Ferris' reputation, program, campus, building (Granger is shining beacon for this industry) and people, so I picked them. I know, and I have been told so, that I couldn't have gone wrong going to any of them. that being said, I am very confident in my decision and belive I made the best choice, personally. (If you couldn't tell, I'm pursuing the 4-year)

If you want to be a technician, many of the community colleges and technical schools offer a 2-year degree that will do nicely for you. As I said, go exploring, talk to as many people as you can. As far as price, public schools and universities post their tuition on their websites most of the time, so you can look that way. BUT, don't let something like tuition hinder you. If this is something you truely want to do, then money won't matter. Student loans suck, but if you pay them off doing something you love, then it is worth it. I am a Missouri resident going to Ferris on Midwest Compact discount. Tuition, books, room, board, everything, costs me $16,000/ year. Not bad for out-of-state these days.

Feel free to contact me if you would like more info. IMs and my E-Mail are in my profile. Also, look for a guy by the name of lmtd on this site... he is with Vatterott and could answer questions you have about them. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't somebody from Penn Col. on this site. There are several community college instuctors and students on this site that could give you information as well. I'm sure they will all give you information.

Hopefully, I've also helped you with what to look for in schools. Good luck with your search. Let us know what you do!

[gschra11]

Originally posted by btexpress
Ferris State College (University, now)in Big Rapids, MI is where I got an Associate's degree in RHAC Technology It was ALOT cheaper back in 1979....Plus they had/have? a great placement office.

Yes, the placement office is still there, and it is still great. (Just for your personal satisfaction in knowing. :))

[firestarter]

I go to Vatterott, Im pleased with the school so far, I go to the one in Omaha, 20 grand might sound like alot, but any decent college is gonna cost that per year or more, and theres the grants and loans. Like they will tell you at the school you get out of it what you put into it, like they told me, a good tech should make 25$ a hour or so, vatterott should definaly get you foot in the door, the rest is up to you.

[educated]

I got my AA from OSU Okmulgee. It's supposed to be # 1 in the nation

[snewman24]

Originally posted by firestarter
I go to Vatterott, Im pleased with the school so far, I go to the one in Omaha, .............. like they told me, a good tech should make 25$ a hour or so,


Firestarter,
When you find these $25 per hour jobs in Omaha would you please tell the rest of us Omaha-ans where they are? Thanks.;)

[woods mech]

I went to Lincoln Tech in Grand Prairie, TX. 4.0 GPA, Valedictorian. I would not recommend it tho. It cost $10,000 for 18 months of night school. The classrooms and labs are good but the administration and some of the teachers really sucked. That was in 99-01 tho.

[sparks]

Pennco tech,nj 13,500 for 18mo night school. Good school as long as you work in the trade (aprentice) during the day.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by sparks
Pennco tech,nj 13,500 for 18mo night school. Good school as long as you work in the trade (aprentice) during the day.

Did you get to do this?

[sparks]

Originally posted by R12rules

Originally posted by sparks
Pennco tech,nj 13,500 for 18mo night school. Good school as long as you work in the trade (aprentice) during the day.

Did you get to do this?

Yes, that's exactly what I did, and better for it. Had a great service manager pull much of hair out over me for the first year. This is the best way to go in my book. Kinda looked like this on the roof! :D

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/chase.gif

[sparks]

Never mind, it still gets like that sometimes.

[coffey]

I APPRECIEATE YOUR INPUT. IT'S JUST THAT VATTEROTT IS THE ONLY SCHOOL THAT CAN FIT INTO MY SCHEDULE AFTER WORK. AND THERE ARE 2 DIFFERENT PLACE I CAN CHOOSE FROM BUT THEY ARE ALL DURING THE DAY AND i WORK DURING THE DAY. I DON'T WANT TO FIND ANOTHER JOB BECAUSE I JUST GOT A PROMOTION TO DEPT. MANAGER. THANK YOU

[sparks]

Hey Coffey,

are you in the biz now??

[parthur]

A technical school is only as good as the instructors. That being said, talk to students, staff and local contractors about the school.. And, whats wrong with the Community College System. It is probably a lot cheaper than the big name private schools ... Check them out. Check the qualifications of the teachers.

[swat]

Originally posted by educated
I got my AA from OSU Okmulgee. It's supposed to be # 1 in the nation

I was thinking about that place earlier this week. Do they offer more than the AAS and how far away are they from Dallas? Probasbly alot further than I want to drive.

[bmf]

universal technical institute was a good school in my

opinion

[NormChris]

Here are two more good HVAC schools.

San Jose City College in San Jose, California

and

Dunwoody Industrial College (was Dunwoody Industrial Institute) in Minneapolis, Minnesota

[coffey]

no i'm not in the biz right now, i would like to be though. Ireally want to get started as a service tech ASAP!! but no one is hiring service tech apps. they want liscensed installers with 3-5 years exp. It seems like here in OKC you have to have a job to get a job in this field. And I don't really want to install I want to do trouble shoot.

[timmay]

I'm at Vatterott right now.
I'm halfway through the 60 base program and will most likly go the extra 30 for more knowledge.

I am not in the field yet either but hope to jump in soon. The season of terminal breakdown is coming and I'm sure SOMEONE is going to need some help.

But here are my words of warning. i'm in class with both complete novices and guys who are already in the field. The guys in the field are there to get a jump up, learn more, make themselves more valuable. But none of them like what they are learning.

About half of our original class has dropped out. Some of them couldn't keep up and others didn't feel the need to learn stuff that they have been told repeatedly they will never use.

I think the schoool administrations will tewll you anything to get in the door. that there are huge money making opps out there. Which I beileve there are... but all of the jobs require experience. The school teaches you enough to get by IMO, but not enough to stick you in to the field alone. Somethings need to be learned on the job. Again, just my opinion, but I doubt I will be able to walk out and get a "tech" job based on my edu. I believe I can get a job doing change outs and the like but theres no skipping ladder wrungs here.

But again I stress... I still haven't looked for a job, other than glancing over the want ads. But its the same thing over and over.. 3 years, 5 years, experience experience.

I don't regret my decision for going to school. Once I grasped the refridgeration cycle I was in like flynn. Walkin around telling everyone it's boiling gas that cools their house. They just shook their heads and walked away.

[morepower7701]

I went to a local Vo-Tech school here in NW Florida, it cost $8,000 for go for 2 years full time. I got everything they offered, and had very little problems when I went into the field. But..... the school is changing to a High School and getting rid of the Tech type courses. It was very hard to study with high school students that could care less about HVAC, just in the class to get an extra credit, and goof off. The teacher was great though, I studied in his office and work mostly 1 on 1 with him, to get away from the high school students, I hated the high school students, but he hated them more. I had to go trough a lot of crap, but did gain a lot of knowledge, which has paid off.

[firestarter]

To person who asked wheres the 25 dollar per hour job in Omaha, they should be there if you have the experience, one good option off the bat would be to join the union, 25 a hour there for sure, anyway as school goes I do not even have a job in the trade and can see that they do not teach what needs to be known, for a person to be useful in the trade. Seems if they wanted to they could but they dont for whatever reason you will never see a student doing real world work inside a vatterott school, they probaly think if they really taught a student what they needed to be able to to do then they would quit before forking over the full payment of tuition. Honestly the school teaches the basics and wastes peoples time for 40 weeks as I see it,many people do not know their own worth, and they may settle for a crap wage. Well all of us newbies need the training and the experience, if your serious about this never give up and you will make a killing, gotta put in the work though..

[R12rules]

My conclusion after reading all the testimonials from both service men as well as students is there are far too few programs in place today which get students up to speed, which is where they need to be in order to make a contribution in this trade.

In my opinion, in order for a school to be offer that type of boost ... they need to develope strategic relationships with local as well as National service contractors. These relationships need to be in place so a student can see ahead of time, what is expected of them in order to be a contributing member of this trade.

Both the school and the contractors need to be involved in the students education! Otherwise, what's the use?

School at night, as a student.
Work in the trade, hands on, during the day as an aprentice. Alongside a Mentor. Not just some service tech who is chosen to have this new guy for a ride-a-long. But someone who is qualified to be a Mentor. Someone patient and trusting and can pass along valuable knowledge to people who are new and want to learn. Not some smart alleck jerk!


Otherwise, we simply need to forget about getting suitable new men and women into this industry. Less of course, they get their training thru a union program.
And I am NOT advocating that route.

[sparks]

It's all about drive and desire too. some have it and some just do not.

They put a kid with me fresh out of school to help me install 3 large Heat exchangers. I tried talking to him asking him questions, all he wanted to do was sleep the whole way to and from the job. Had no feild exp and just sat there. I'd ask him to do something and get a huff. I think he lasted like 4 weeks. Another technician threw him off a residential install for falling asleep while hanging flex in a crawl.

When I was riding, I didn't shut the #%ck up. i read every single service manual in the truck, asked questions until the lead tech was fed up and tired of me talking his ear off. I just don't see stuff like that out of the new guys coming into the trade.

Maybe it's just me??

[NormChris]

There are two sides to the success of anyone attending school to learn HVAC. First you need a motivated student who actually wants to learn and is willing to apply him/herself. Then you need a good instructor or instructors. A good instructor may even be able to inspire some students and give them additional motivation. Students will not be motivated if the instructor is not motivated. A good instructor can make this business exciting. It is an exciting business.

Two of the industry's biggest problems is a lack of motivated students and a lack of good instructors who know their stuff, can effectively communicate with students and are excited about both the business and teaching.

Norm

[topdog]

Norm I couldn't have said it any better!
No one mentioning the RSES programs? Are they defunct?

[NormChris]

Originally posted by topdog
Norm I couldn't have said it any better!
No one mentioning the RSES programs? Are they defunct?

RSES classes are held at the local chapters and the quality of the class depends upon the individual instructor. Too often they amount to the shared ignorance of the class members. I quit teaching RSES classes because I don't get paid and I am a professional instructor and that is how I earn my living. I can't afford to teach for free. I still speak at some of the monthly meetings and am scheduled to speak at the next meeting but have not decided on a topic for the next meeting.

The RSES course books are pretty good.

[topdog]

Went through 2 years in the DC metro area instructors I had were great. You had to perform working knowledge and lab in order to pass, plus attendance. A lot of guys didn't make it.
The instructor said at beginning that by end of year class would probably be half the size.He wasn't kidding.

[len]

here in rhode island we have new england insitute of technology,25,000 for a four year program,that includes all disciplines.when you graduate you get your associates degree.it is rated one of the top tech schools in the country,

[R12rules]

Instructors play a major role in the students education and learning process.
A Mentor during the day, for OJT, is also equally important. And the two of them coordinating with one another would be ideal.

But someone here needs to sit down and interview these people prior to them being accepted as students!
They need to undergo extensive surveys and tests to see if eir character and personality will match what works in our field. AND ... they need to be a certain level of emotional maturity!

Just because they got the bucks, does not mean they got the character and personality for this industry.

Just like any average Joe can join the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines. They may do fine or even excell in their duty.

However, just because they do good in one of those branches of the military does NOT mean they are suitable for Special Forces.
And that my friends, is what field service technicians are akin to.

A lot of people think this is just another job.
You train, you go to work, you get paid. That's it.

WRONG!!!

This difference in our trade from something like carpentry or simple welding ... is like the difference between a proctologist and a brain surgeon.

And it is quite clear to me by the level of students some school shave been dumping into our industry at they dont know the difference themselves between the two doctors professions and skills!
In other words, some have had their brains serviced by the wrong specialist!!!

[NormChris]

R12Rules, you are absolutely correct. However, here is the problem with that.

Government schools such as community colleges and vocational schools need students just to keep the HVAC program from closing. So, they take all the warm bodies they can get. Enrollments are down. They dare not turn down anybody.

The private for profit HVAC schools need the income to stay in business and make a profit. So, they too can't afford to turn away students.

So, do you see the problem? Then, neither the public or private schools are willing to pay for good instructors and now the problem of a quality HVAC education is even more complicated. Anybody who can solve these problems is a better man than I and I have been a fulltime instructor for many years.

Norm

[topdog]

Actually who wants to get into this trade,must be nuts.
With all the physics,math,chemical reactions,combustibles,laws restricting use,Lp gas vs. natural gas, three phase electric,dc and ac, micro-processors,single phase electric,new refrigerants,replacement refrigerants......etc.....


to learn this and make 40k-50k a year.
The benefits of working outdoors in all kinds of weather.

We have to be knowledgable in a lot of areas just to do our job.Wouldn't it be easier just to be a programmer at 30k entry level and not worry about burning down someone's home, because you overlooked the safety?


Guess what? I'm certifiable! Love this job. Learn something everyday and will never know it all. You've got to love challenges on a every day basis to do this and that's what it takes in your personality. If it's not there, get out now while you still have your sanity.


It's not rocket science,but it's pretty close.

[gschra11]

My reply is off topic from this thread, so I started a new one.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=49639

[sparks]

Norm,

That's exactly what my school was like. Private, took any warm body. Most of the guys had grants and federal money to pay for it so they could care less. Some of us paid entierly out of pocket or with federal/private loans.
From what I seen the one's who paid for it out of pocket paid more attention, got jobs in the field early and stuck with it. Guy's with grants just dropped out left and right or stuck around just to get the piece of paper. Book smart, but not applying themselves in the labs. Clueless to the real world. And I've only been out of school 2 years.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by sparks
Norm,

That's exactly what my school was like. Private, took any warm body. Most of the guys had grants and federal money to pay for it so they could care less. Some of us paid entierly out of pocket or with federal/private loans.
From what I seen the one's who paid for it out of pocket paid more attention, got jobs in the field early and stuck with it. Guy's with grants just dropped out left and right or stuck around just to get the piece of paper. Book smart, but not applying themselves in the labs. Clueless to the real world. And I've only been out of school 2 years.

Sparks, I am glad to hear you faired well. Hang in there. We are all learning more every day. No end to what there is to know in this business and the learning is half the fun. Otherwise I would become bored quickly.

[sparks]

Had some real good teachers. In school and in the truck!

[R12rules]

Originally posted by NormChris
R12Rules, you are absolutely correct. However, here is the problem with that.

So, do you see the problem? Then, neither the public or private schools are willing to pay for good instructors and now the problem of a quality HVAC education is even more complicated.
Norm


I dont believe in "Big Government". So I am not looking to the government to bring in some set of rules or guidelines in order to set the bar higher for edu.
That is NOT the answer. Never was, NEVER WILL BE!!!

We need a grass roots effort from within our industry.
Problem is ... we (as an industry) are a bunch of push-overs!
Now I am NOT a union man by any means. But the only way I can see to straighten out this mess is to either go union or go with the outline I made in other threads.

Was my outline a perfect plan? No it was not. But I dont seem to hear anyone else with an idea.
I am not here to stir up a hornet's nest of arguement. But I just do not see any way that we are going to progress from where we are.

If I wrote a book of how I run into jealousy and envy and idiotic principles wi men who are not good technicians and not mentors and not good at sharing information... nobody would read it. It would be just like other sick fiction novels.
However, this is not fiction but real.
Guys in the field are not too willing to share info with new men.
NOT!!!
And some who are willing, are simply not able to get the point across. They lack the skills necessary in order to facilitate the process of learning.


If the edu is to be handed out by the private HVACR schools, en they need to be exhorted to bring up the bar.
If edu is to be given thru community colleges, then ey too need to toe the line.

The unions are not the ones to set the standard here.
The government is not the one to set it either!
We as the industry people ourselves ...WE need to get something going.

If some one can reccomend some group in our industry, like RSES, who could, who would ... have the org skills as well as the trade skills, hands on skills, people skills, Mentor skills ... etc., to set some basic standards ... then we could possibly, with-out deliberation ... move forward in a timely manner.

Since we are not dealing with money and power struggles. This is not a union issue.
Since we are not dealing with legal ings, this is not a government issue either.

This is an industry issue.
And we can do something about it.

[NormChris]

Originally posted by lmtd

Originally posted by R12rules
But someone here needs to sit down and interview these people prior to them being accepted as students!
They need to undergo extensive surveys and tests to see if eir character and personality will match what works in our field. AND ... they need to be a certain level of emotional maturity!



That would fall into discrimination and you can not do that.

You have to set an entery level standard and ANYONE who meets that standard MUST be allowed to enter, you do not have a choice.

Although they will deny it, the unions discriminate as to who makes it into their apprenticeship programs. I know, as I sat on several selection committees and participated.

Norm

[R12rules]

Originally posted by sparks

Originally posted by R12rules

Originally posted by sparks
Pennco tech,nj 13,500 for 18mo night school. Good school as long as you work in the trade (aprentice) during the day.

Did you get to do this?

Yes, that's exactly what I did, and better for it. Had a great service manager pull much of hair out over me for the first year. This is the best way to go in my book. Kinda looked like this on the roof! :D

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/chase.gif

How do you explain that your service manager kept you on during that "transitional period" of time?

I mean, most supervisors today are quick to hire and fire their employees.

What made it different for you?

[robhvac]

You should just go to a Community College that offers hvac programs, there alot cheaper.

[2hot2coolme]

Originally posted by topdog
Actually who wants to get into this trade,must be nuts.
With all the physics,math,chemical reactions,combustibles,laws restricting use,Lp gas vs. natural gas, three phase electric,dc and ac, micro-processors,single phase electric,new refrigerants,replacement refrigerants......etc.....


to learn this and make 40k-50k a year.
The benefits of working outdoors in all kinds of weather.

We have to be knowledgable in a lot of areas just to do our job.Wouldn't it be easier just to be a programmer at 30k entry level and not worry about burning down someone's home, because you overlooked the safety?


Guess what? I'm certifiable! Love this job. Learn something everyday and will never know it all. You've got to love challenges on a every day basis to do this and that's what it takes in your personality. If it's not there, get out now while you still have your sanity.


It's not rocket science,but it's pretty close.

Well said!
I went and got my Associates Degree in HVAC 10 yrs ago and paid for it on my own. Some said I was wasting my time and money, some said it was a smart move. Can't say it cost me 20K, but working for myself now for the past 5 yrs, I do have to say it all paid off. I love my trade. I guess you either have to love it or hate it. Those who hate it, just don't really know what they want.

[rice killer 302]

I curentaly go to vatterott and i think it is great, i'm taking the associates and batchelors degrees when i'm done,it is worth the money,dont fall for jon vatterott jr's crap,he is the guy who started "american trade school",it cost 10,000 dollars but they have very little equipment and they are not an acredited school so the diploma is not worth the same and you can not get a federal loan to atend and you must put money down,this guy is the son of the jon vatterott who foundeded Vatterott. but yes Vatterott is a good acredited school.

[sparks]

[/B][/QUOTE]

How do you explain that your service manager kept you on during that "transitional period" of time?

I mean, most supervisors today are quick to hire and fire their employees.

What made it different for you?


[/B][/QUOTE]
I never had to explain anything; I think he saw my desire to learn, and my potential to succeed in this business.

I consider myself very lucky to have had some great teachers with patience.

I also think I made myself different, when other guys would sleep on long drives I would bring in a book or grab one out of the truck and read on the way.

Then and now actually cared about how the fished product looked and ran equally.

When I make mistakes, then and now, I feel it (ya know what I mean) I find out where I went wrong, read, take classes, suck it up and ask questions so I don't make the same mistake twice.

[coffey]

Well thanks guys for your replies, I had enrolled into another tech school and went part-time. Didn't get into everything we mainly talked about A/c but I go the basic controlls, refrigeration cycle, and a further drive to learn more. I got hired on with a refrigeration CO. here in OKC. lot of good on the job training. I still study in my ref. book. And what best of all spending almost a thousand dollars on a short term program, I have doubled my income when I changed careers. I'm asking questions everyday. And I enjoy it!!
Thanks.
coffey

[JTaylor4193]

i am going to Pennco Tech in Blackwood NJ and im payin close to 22 grand