Finding controls guys,

[miller_elex]

Where do the best come from? (not service techs)

I don't think training up guys who did CAT5 beforehand is the answer.

Trying to think about quality on the install, productivity, and getting it right the first time.

Whats the best pool of people to draw from?

[joey791]

good luck

[viceman]

a service tech with some computer knowledge, and desire to put in the after hours learning, can be brought up to speed pretty quickly..

[MaxBurn]

a service tech with some computer knowledge, and desire to put in the after hours learning, can be brought up to speed pretty quickly..

x10 You have to be a bit odd to like this line of work and want to put in the extra time both on or off the clock to pick things up.

[printer2]

I worked at a college in support of their Instrument Engineering Program. The course was geared towards the processing industry (mining, chemical, water and waste) but a good portion of the class I taught ended up in the HVAC industry. I wanted to put a greater emphasis on HVAC and automation but the school management wanted to push more math and electronics (that is what they knew, no industrial experience).

Basically industrial versions of our DDC systems, measuring pressure, temperature, flow, controlling flow, speed drives, motor control, loop tuning, calibration, designing HMI interfaces...

http://me.rrc.mb.ca/catalogue/CourseDescriptions.aspx?ProgCode=INSEF-DP&RegionCode=WPG

Maybe you have similar programs in the US.

[viceman]

a lot of techs want to get into controls. they think it would be great to just sit in front of the computer. i give them the grey manual on cd and tell them to read it and then we'll talk. i usually don't hear from them again.

[crab master]

Experienced guys with a good resume and contacts in the field to back it up.

Now on training someone up - I agree with the idea of a good service tech that can deal with the computer.

Granted I am likely biased due to my background of a service tech, but I end up talking to/working on too many controls guys programs/errors that didn't account for something an experienced service tech likely would have. Besides how efficient is a computer guy going to how to wire something up or troubleshoot the installation vs. a service tech, let alone really understand the sequence of operation. Then you get into the battle of the 'dumb' service tech vs. the 'smart' controls guy. Since I've been on both sides of the fence I still really do try to listen to the service tech that thinks something is not quite right, vs blowing him off as I've been blown off far too many times as a tech and had to go to great lengths to prove I was right because I was the 'dumb' service tech. Granted I also do get many ignorant calls, but I sometimes also get the calls that catch something I missed.

[D1G]

If you're looking to train someone into the controls industry I don't think there is a best place to look. I think finding people within your field that have a firm understanding of why things work the way they do as opposed to just how they work coupled with an aptitude for computers is key. It's tough to train someone on how a particular control network works if they don't posses a basic understanding of networking and computing. It's equally difficult to train someone with an IT background that lacks any understanding of process control.

I don't really differentiate between the different I&C sectors. Ultimately a controls technician (or engineer) must understand the process and how to control it.

If you're looking to hire someone that will require minimal training I would look within the instrumentation and controls (I&C) industry. Someone that's been doing industrial I&C should be able to make the switch to HVAC controls with minimal training. They've most likely already been exposed to the fundamentals; fluid flow and heat transfer, that make up the majority of an HVAC system. I'd say the same would go for an HVAC controls technician, they would typically be more than comfortable developing a control solution to maintain a given pressure, temperature, voltage, etc in an industrial environment. The process may change but the fundamentals usually do not.

R/ D1G

[osiyo]

Where do the best come from? (not service techs)

I don't think training up guys who did CAT5 beforehand is the answer.

Trying to think about quality on the install, productivity, and getting it right the first time.

Whats the best pool of people to draw from?

Hmmm. Good question.

Where I work the controls techs (and engineers) come from a variety of backgrounds.

What do yah have against HVAC service techs?

We have a few controls techs who came from that background. When we're looking for new controls techs we're open to letting an interested HVAC service tech try on the job for size. Factually, most such don't make it, in our experience, and go back to HVAC service. But we've picked up some of our very best control techs that way.

What do yah have against that Cat5 guy?

We've got a couple very good control techs, and a controls engineer ... who used to be computer types.

And a couple good controls techs who used to be regular, line voltage electricians.

And a couple controls techs who used to be industrial process controls types.

Then yah have me. Who started out as a computer/electronics type way back when. Then became a gasoline and diesel engine repair type. Moved on to operating and repairing large steam power plants and all their auxiliary gear. Then got into specializing in the control systems for such things. Pneumatic, mechanical, electrical, electronic, and digital (PLCs when they started being used). Did occasional HVAC and refrigeration work. Then started specializing in HVAC. Then moved into BAS controls work solely.

A lot of the guys we have doing controls had a similar type background. That is, they didn't do just one thing all of their working lives.

i.e. One of the regular electricians we have who turned controls tech, did regular electrician work for years but then got into industrial automation. During which time he learned a great deal about basic mechanical principles, types of equipment, how they worked and why, etc. Another was an in house electrician for a major HVAC contracting outfit for years, during which time he learned as much as a lot fitters know about HVAC equipment.

Etc ... Etc.

I don't know that there really is some single job category from which one might find the most likely to be successful BAS controls technician.

It largely depends upon the nature and past experiences of the individual.

We had one guy who was a recent graduate of an industrial controls school. He picked up this stuff really quick. After all, the basic principles of pumps, fluid flow, understanding the gas laws, thermal flow, etc are the same whether one is talking about HVAC or industrial process control. The school also provided him a basic understanding of computers, programming, etc. So he picked up HVAC specific knowledge really quick. He's since moved on to work for one of our competitors.

But JUST BECAUSE a guy might come from a successful HVAC mechanic background, does not also mean he's necessarily good controls material. I work with HVAC mechanics all the time. Frankly they run the gamut as concerns just how much they really know about the overall field.

Some are pretty complacent and as long as they know just enough to collect a pay check, they're not just all that interested in having to learn more. Especially if they're expected to do a lot of self directed study about a subject they weren't all that interested in beforehand.

I've worked with ex-HVAC guys who once they found out just what working in DDC controls was really like on a day to day basis ... just up and gave it up. I've had similar who tried to stick with it, but didn't have the aptitude or correct mind set. Finally we had to send em back to whtat they did before. Had one who was all hot to trot to get into DDC controls. But when he found out we expected him to be doing a lot of after hours self study, he up and quit on us. He told me he thought we were gonna send him off for formal schooling right off the bat. I told him that wasn't the way it worked. He had to prove himself first, and show the right aptitude for the field. Darn schools are expensive.

Good luck in your search.

I'd look for someone who besides having a good technical knowledge in one of the areas related to BAS controls, has gone beyond the minimum expectations and what was required, and took it upon himself or herself, to learn more than that.

[klrogers]

The common thread in almost all the replies is: someone who is willing to learn (on their own time as well has company provided training) and often already has some education or experience in more than one aspect of our trade, and will accept the fact that "controls is a lifestyle, not a job"




Kevin

[osiyo]

The common thread in almost all the replies is: someone who is willing to learn (on their own time as well has company provided training) and often already has some education or experience in more than one aspect of our trade, and will accept the fact that "controls is a lifestyle, not a job"

Kevin

Nicely summarized.

[Control Man]

Biggest hurdle is getting someone to realize its not always a 9 - 5 , Mon - Fri job.

Look for some that has HVAC knowledge , service experience ( not Jiffy Lube ) , realizes there is a learning curve and that you have to work.

[acjourneyman]

Why not service techs, I have been a tech for 20 years and was a controls installer before that. I have seen plenty of different controls techs who know how to program(vaguely) but don't have a clue what they are programming.As a result, I have also seen equipment destroyed because of some 10.00 an hour programmer who is clueless on the mechanical side. I would take a seasoned service guy and train him over a grad school programming whiz anyday.

[NINAX]

Why not service techs, I have been a tech for 20 years and was a controls installer before that. I have seen plenty of different controls techs who know how to program(vaguely) but don't have a clue what they are programming.As a result, I have also seen equipment destroyed because of some 10.00 an hour programmer who is clueless on the mechanical side. I would take a seasoned service guy and train him over a grad school programming whiz anyday.

But of course you would.

[freddy-b]

Why not service techs, I have been a tech for 20 years and was a controls installer before that. I have seen plenty of different controls techs who know how to program(vaguely) but don't have a clue what they are programming.As a result, I have also seen equipment destroyed because of some 10.00 an hour programmer who is clueless on the mechanical side. I would take a seasoned service guy and train him over a grad school programming whiz anyday.

who ever put that 10 dollar an hour download boy in that position should be shot.
and as a equal side note....how many "computer" problems are freon jocks ...not knowing how to troubleshoot their own stuff? Do they automatically become dumb as soon as they see a DDC controller in a unit?
or do they do that all the time?

[dodger454]

Some of the larger controls companys are finding its easier to teach us "freon jocks" the digital controls end of the business,than to teach the computer jocks HVAC.We actually know why things do what they do not what the book says.
Freddie don't dis the "freon jocks" you would look funny with a 18" pipe wrench stuck in your forehead.:oops:

[printer2]

My Instrumentation Instructor/mentor complained about the college's hiring practice of hiring the degree not the man. Basically he said that a person can pick up the skills needed, the passion is something that they had to have already.

I love how things work, like mechanical stuff, electronics, like making processes work. I was not the most polished of presenters but my students learned what I taught them in spite of my faults because I loved the stuff. Also I could relate tuning a process to tuning an electronic circuit, to tuning bass reflex speakers, to hot rodding cars. Much of what I taught is basic physics and it translates across disciplines.

The reason I am bringing up students again is I got to see a lot of them and what makes some stand out. First off for the kind of work we do I like farm boys and auto mechanic types. Farm boys have a can do attitude, you learn that by not having someone to run to and fix your tractor's hydraulics or weld up your implement. Had one university student once that did not know how to adjust a crescent wrench when I asked him to tighten a nut. He could tell me all about who was going to win the hockey game on Saturday night though.

Car guys who can take things apart and put them back together were great, but now car guys take the form of chip programmers, the one's that can swing a wrench are worth looking at.

One problem that our local power company had was they would hire the brightest guys that went through our courses and found they did not stick around that long. They then started hiring guys with a lower GPA and found that they had a higher retention. Don't hire with stellar qualifications if you have nowhere for them to move up.

Mainly you need someone with an inquisitive mind, someone that wants to know how things work.

[freddy-b]

Some of the larger controls companys are finding its easier to teach us "freon jocks" the digital controls end of the business,than to teach the computer jocks HVAC.We actually know why things do what they do not what the book says.
Freddie don't dis the "freon jocks" you would look funny with a 18" pipe wrench stuck in your forehead.:oops:

Absolutely the better control techs come from the HVAC field. I have stated that many times. All I am saying is for every idiot/lazy control tech..there is a idiot/lazy phosgene sniffer.

Yes I know JCI is one of those companies that has/is experimented with that idea, and is not fairing so well. Exceptions here and there, but for the most part a utter failure.

as for the pipe wrench...if some loud mouth was disn' me and broke one out... they would soon find it up one of their familiar orifices.

[acjourneyman]

I agree Freddy, there is some very stupid people in both aspects of the field. I am biased but work for Trane so had alot of chilled water and air side experience before moving into controls.If you are talking taking a guy from ma and pa refrigeration and making him a control guy than the journey might be a little longer.

[dodger454]

I agree that no matter which side Control techs come from there are scrubs on both sides.I am bias to the mechanical side because a good HVAC mechanic knows why things operate they way they do because we had to repair the frozen coils,stuck dampers,and broken linkages,Generally the Controls only techs do not. This is not ment to dis anyone just my opinion.
Yes the JCI thing did not work real well,I think they didn't fully decide what to do if a mechanical guy did pick up the controls end,and the UA really didn't push the issue down to the locals.Once you let the genie out of the bottle it's hard to put it back in,the bottle never opened up enough.

Freddie nothing personel just a safety warning to steer clear of fitters on ladders:LOL:

[D1G]

It really depends on what exactly you expect of your control technicians/engineers. With the current trend moving towards unified facility automation the skill set required is ever broadening. Many systems are not just HVAC controls anymore, they incorporate access control, security, life safety, and sophisticated interfaces with traditional enterprise systems (billing, auditing, etc..). I know this is hvac-talk.com but I see many of the contractors that routinely bid and work at our location also moving to provide these solutions.

Does the individual only need to be able to do control work or do they need to be able to install/program the controls and set up a SOAP client to query a particular set of data for analysis? Just an example but my point is: I think at some point in the future a strong understanding of both fields will be necessary. Someone who has worked years as an HVAC technician is normally going to possess a greater understanding of HVAC than someone who's worked exclusively in the IT/CS field but I'd argue the reverse is also true.

[osiyo]

Basically industrial versions of our DDC systems, measuring pressure, temperature, flow, controlling flow, speed drives, motor control, loop tuning, calibration, designing HMI interfaces...

http://me.rrc.mb.ca/catalogue/CourseDescriptions.aspx?ProgCode=INSEF-DP&RegionCode=WPG

Maybe you have similar programs in the US.

Yes, there are similar programs in the U.S. Under varying names since there seems to be no consensus among the educational institutions as to what to call them. In addition, from program to program (school to school) there tends to be some variation in emphasis as to exactly what part of the general industrial controls field the student is focusing upon.

However, in general, all pretty much teach the same basics. Basic machine technology (gears, levers, fluid flow, heat transfer, etc), pneumatics, hydraulics, the core science of how various mechanical equipment and process control systems work, sensors and actuators of all types, the basic gas laws, electrical power and control systems, analog and digital electronics, how programmable logic controllers work and how to program them, basic control networking, usually some form of generic computer programming such as C++, how to use basic office software such as the various parts of MS Office, so forth and so on.

Is it HVAC specific? Nope, not usually. But is it any great leap for a fellow to take to go from an industrial controls education and experience into HVAC control ... nope. Not really. All the basic knowledge is there, the new learning is just a matter of details.

For instance I came from a non-HVAC background originally. Was a steam power specialist, working on a ship. Formally schooled for that. Boilers, turbines, pumps, compressors, valves, heat exchangers, etc of almost every type and description one could name. And the power and control systems for such.

Then one day I was talking to a fellow who ran the ship's HVACR shop, and he was hard up for manpower. Shorthanded and needed some occasional help. I was willing, and arrangements were made for me to spend part of my time helping him out.

With my previous background and education, it was nothing for me to understand the basic refrigeration cycle. And the differences in exact equipment design and materials ... and why there were such ... took no particular effort for me to learn and understand. I already knew the basic science and principles involved. At first I bird dogged him as a helper, for a couple weeks. He explained stuff as we worked. After that I was mostly on my own, and could handle 90% of the trouble calls I got. And knew when I didn't know enough and needed to ask for help. Within a year, keeping in mind I only spent approx half my working time helping out the HVACR shop, I was the lead in charge of overhauling a 150 ton centrifugal unit, including a change out and modification of its controls.

Later I applied for and was accepted into the Navy's AC&R school and completed it. Didn't actually need that school. Didn't learn much I didn't already know by that time. But, I wanted to have that diploma to hang on my wall, along with the others. It impresses other folks.

My only point is, the basics are the basics. If one has adequate skills in the needed math; an understanding of the basic gas laws, thermodynamics, fluid flow, etc; a knowledge of the various types, design considerations (plus why), and application of pumps, valves, heat exchangers, compressors, etc; plus adequate knowledge of electrical power and control systems; and so forth ... it isn't gonna be any great leap or difficulty in one learning HVAC specific stuff.

Computer skills, an understanding of the basic principles of programming, and the basics of control networks and protocols are part of most Instrumentation/Industrial Controls programs these days.

So, Yeah, a lot of graduates of said courses wouldn't have any difficulty in quickly learning BAS specific knowledge, or reading through Honeywell's Gray Manual and understanding what they're reading, or reading through a HVAC manufacturer's tech manual and understanding what's said in there. Would they have to learn some things new to them? Yep, but not a lot, and they'd likely have the educational background to understand the material.

As I mentioned in another post, we used to have a guy we hired as a controls tech right after he graduated an industrial controls course. He had learning to do, but it was no problem, he picked things up VERY quickly as he had the educational background to understand what he was being told or was reading. Now, would I have sent him out to hands on repair a chiller? Nope, no way. He didn't have the field experience and the kinds of knowledge and skills one only learns by hands on doing to be trusted with that. But he had no problem reading through a manufacturer's manual and not only understanding the warnings, cautions, and required sequences but also the "Why's", and could read and understand the electrical schematics as well as anyone.

Amongst our customers are a number of businesses which employ industrial/process technicians (or Instrumentation types). And I often find them very knowledgeable about the in-house HVAC equipment. And what they don't know, they tend to pick up very rapidly when you explain it.

Chuckle, with one customer in particular I was having trouble explaining to upper management just exactly why we were setting up things to operate a certain way, as versus EXACTLY how they wanted it to work. A manufacturing place, with mostly automated machinery. The differences we had about exactly how the control sequence was to go were small, but a real sticking point as the management guys were quite set in there minds about it. Finally, the senior fellow, who runs the company, called for his lead industrial controls tech and said I should explain my reasoning to him. So we went off and had a chat. Which went well as this guy actually understood machinery, heat transfer, etc. After our talk he went back and told that management team that I was correct and my way was the better choice.

They didn't even bother to quiz him much. After all, he was one of their own, and their best tech, so they simply accepted him at his word.

My general impression and experience is that industrial controls types (and industrial instrumentation types) would make very good candidates for becoming BAS controls techs.

I'm not even going to get into the debate about HVAC service types or HVAC mechanics getting into controls as versus some other profession getting into controls.

To me, it depends upon the person, his past experiences, his aptitude for dealing with the specific sorts of knowledge and requirements a BAS controls tech has to face, and so forth.

Dealing with BAS controls is a never ending learning process. There is no such thing as some school or trade course which will teach you everything you need to know. And often times what they taught you yesterday, is obsolete before you wear out those brand new Red Wing work boots you bought the day you graduated that course.

[osiyo]

Does the individual only need to be able to do control work or do they need to be able to install/program the controls and set up a SOAP client to query a particular set of data for analysis? Just an example but my point is: I think at some point in the future a strong understanding of both fields will be necessary. Someone who has worked years as an HVAC technician is normally going to possess a greater understanding of HVAC than someone who's worked exclusively in the IT/CS field but I'd argue the reverse is also true.

True enough.

Chuckle, I got quizzed by a fellow worker not long ago about "What the heck is an SQL query?". He was reading through the specs of a job. I gave him a brief explanation, but also told him not to worry about it as that part of the job would be done by someone else.

Personally, I don't know of anyone within the BAS controls field that knows everything one might need to know to fulfill all customer requirements and expectations.

I do know some folks who THINK they know it all. But they're mistaken.

Where I work, most of the controls techs adequately know and understand most of the stuff they'll have to deal with. But one of the reasons we try to have a diversity of backgrounds amongst our staff (techs and engineers) is to be able to deal with the kinds of things of which you speak.

We make an effort to ensure that everyone is aware of the different backgrounds and specialties held. And everyone is encouraged to use that knowledge. That is, when you're in over your head, yah call the guy who is most likely to know, and let him deal with that aspect of the job.

One tries to learn the essentials about everything, but its not really possible to be expert in everything.

One of our controls engineers, at least that's what we call him, is an ex-IT guy. Complete with a computer science degree and years of experience in that field. He's also learned HVAC systems, and can handle such as long as things don't get too darn technical. When a project he designed and laid out gets installed and tested, its quite common for the controls tech to find an Oops, or something he missed, or some control sequence that's simply not gonna work given the equipment present, and so forth. No big deal. Controls tech simply makes the changes needed in the field.

But when it comes to advanced knowledge of networks, setting up complex databases and reports, and so forth ... he's our Goto guy. He's forgotten more about such subjects than most of us will ever know.

Same goes for one of our controls techs who used to be one of those Cat5 guys some fellow mentioned in another post. Ditto, another controls tech who used to be a fire, security, and access control specialist.

I am myself called upon regularly to assist others. Some of our HVAC service types turned controls techs know more about some aspects of HVAC systems that I'm not just all that strong in; specifically large chillers, cooling towers, and ice farms. But, OTOH, given my background if they're having an issue that is electronic in nature ... or might be, or deals with specialized sensors such as the various hazardous gas sensors, interfacing with PLCs or some proprietary custom control system, or some piece of equipment they're simply not familiar with (fume hoods are a recent case, but I'm also experienced with card access systems, fire panels, etc), I get a call for assistance. I'm also more experienced and have a past background in general computer programming, data networks, configuring OS stuff on desktops and laptops, and troubleshooting desktops and laptops.

Likewise, we have a guy whose primary specialty is programming. Used to be a programmer by trade. Got into HVAC and BAS field way back when, worked for one of the BAS controls manufacturers back when all this stuff was being developed.

All of us can do programming. But if its a particularly difficult problem, it gets handed off to this guy. If he can't figure it out, I don't know who would. We have one equipment manufacturer we deal with who has him on their speed dial, and they often quiz him for answers they've not been able to figure out.

Chuckle, we deal in Niagara based devices, as well as other systems. Both under the Tridium name and others. I'm not myself certified, probably never will be as its unlikely the company will pay the expense of sending me to the required course. Which is okay. In what I do, I'm unlikely to ever be required to do an initial install, licensing, configuration, etc. All I really need to be able to do is be able to make adjustments, changes, an occasional addition, etc. And most of that I've been able to figure out on my own. With an occasional call made for help. But not often, the basics aren't just all that hard to figure out.

Now we have some certified and experienced types on those systems. But even so, they routinely run into some problem or requirement they need help with. And I know that they have another fellow on their speed dial. That fellow is an employee of one of our customers. An IT type by profession. We did the original install of said device on their premises. But since then he's gotten into it and started learning it. And trust me, this guy is sharp. In short order he surpassed anything the manufacturer's classes teach, and passed beyond what anyone else we've ever run across knows. Nowadays, our Niagara specialists give this a guy a call before they bother with checking other sources.

Yep, we've tried to hire him away. But he likes it where he's at.

[skwsproul]

a lot of techs want to get into controls. they think it would be great to just sit in front of the computer. i give them the grey manual on cd and tell them to read it and then we'll talk. i usually don't hear from them again.

I totally agree. Gave a basic class last year to our service techs, so they could diagnose a little easier whether or not the problem is controls or mechanical. I until then got teased a quite a bit about how all we do is point and click and its so easy. Gave the class and the grey manual on disk as a handout, I have not heard 1 word of how easy my job is since.

[skwsproul]

Absolutely the better control techs come from the HVAC field.
YEP

I was a helper going to school for computer programming (called IT with programming in c++at that time), after many classes and certifications and years working in hvac I stayed in the hvac service field as an hvac service tech and moved into controls. I could not imagine trying to set up hvac systems without hvac knowledge nor would I want to program without programming knowledge, the beauty of hvac controls is that it is both.

[osiyo]

I totally agree. Gave a basic class last year to our service techs, so they could diagnose a little easier whether or not the problem is controls or mechanical. I until then got teased a quite a bit about how all we do is point and click and its so easy. Gave the class and the grey manual on disk as a handout, I have not heard 1 word of how easy my job is since.

LOL .... I've seen it both ways.

Giving a bit of training to mechanical types. In one case in particular it was very amusing because the training session included a fellow I'd worked with on some projects who had a habit of commenting, "Must be nice, just sitting or standing there typing on a keyboard, and collecting a fat paycheck for it." Or similar phrases to the same effect. Repeatedly, and often.

Where I work, occasionally if they have an interested mechanical type they'll send him out into the field with me as a helper, so he can get a feel for what I really do, and to start learning the basics. Then if things work out, he shows aptitude AND is still interested, they'll give him a shot at turning into a controls tech.

In this fellow's case, no doubt in my mind that he was bright enough. Very sharp guy. But by the end of a week of bird dogging me, having me explain things, trying to read through some literature I sent home with him, etc ... he'd had it. Told me all the stuff he was trying to absorb was making his head hurt. I think the final straw, the one that broke the camel's back, was the day I had a problem with one piece of equipment. First had to determine if it was a hardware or software problem. It was the sort of problem that meant that particular chore took a couple hours to verify beyond any doubt. It was software. A custom program pre-written back in the shop by someone else. I had the source code. And with him looking over my shoulder, and my explaining things as I did them, I first ascertained exactly what the program author was trying to do and how. And then started bug hunting. I was explaining the code, what each section was doing, as I did my thing. Took much of the rest of the day to find out what was wrong. A pretty simple and easy to make Oops. A one minute fix after I found, and recognized, the error. Just took a while to find it.

But, no big deal. One of those routine things. Same guy had made precisely the same logical error in numerous other similar programs for that job. The others would take merely moments to correct now that I knew what the error was. Heck, I'd made the same sort of error myself, a time or a hundred.

But my helper looked like he wanted to be somewhere else, anywhere else, than with me at that moment, trying to understand both the error and my fix. The error was nothing more than a data type mismatch. Which caused a formula to operate upon a value that was SUPPOSED to be something like "72.0", as if it were "7.2".

After I found and fixed the problem, we stepped out to have a cup of coffee, as I'd skipped lunch while focused on my bug hunt. My partner looked at me and commented, "Yah know, I think I could probably learn this stuff ... but I don't know that I want to. You just spent hours looking through what looked to me like total gibberish, looking for what turned out to be a tiny, tiny little error. I got a headache and my eyes crossed just looking over your shoulder. Does that sort of thing happen often?"

I told him that it wasn't OFTEN, the guy who did the program was very good, better than I. But everyone makes mistakes, and it was a routine part of the job. And it was pretty common for me, and others who did the same job, to spend hours at home after work debugging some code. Or creating a piece of new code to fulfill a one of a kind unique requirement. Or pouring through manuals, cutsheets, specs, and whatnot to figure out either why this or that wasn't working as it should, or how to implement a required sequence, or whatever.

The following week he decided to call it quits and went back to his regular job.

Have had the same experience with other trade types. The folks for whom I work also do regular electrical, fire systems, door access control, security systems, etc. A few times I've been assigned a low voltage type; fire system guy, security system type, or combo type. Who thought he wanted to get into the BAS controls world. All of whom had some programming and computer experience. But the nature of their work is such that program sequences are mostly Boolean/digital in nature. That is, On-Off, True-False. Etc. Were usually all hepped up ready to jump in with both feet. Until their relay logic minds got introduced to an analog, modulating world.

Add, I'd give em a copy of the Honeywell Gray Book and tell em to read through, lightly and briefly, it just to get the idea of some of the things we'd be doing, and why.

Most didn't last but a few days before they changed their minds and decided to go back to their original specialty.

Regardless of past trade; HVAC, electrical, IT, or whatever; it takes a person with a particular mindset to get into and stick with BAS controls long enough to become reasonably proficient. You can't really be the type who has to have his/her hand held, who is disinclined to to burn some midnight oil on your own dime, who needs everything laid out in black and write as to how to do this or that or what you may or may not do. You really need both patience and shear persistence. Be able to pay a lot of attention to seemingly insignificant details. Understand and be able to live with the fact that this sort of job is a constant learning experience, and if you don't keep learning you're gonna be obsolete REAL QUICK. And you've got to have an inquisitive mind. Because to be effective you're gonna need to learn some essential basic principles of what are normally considered several different trades or career fields.

[skwsproul]

I had one service tech who got on my nerves with the whole controls has it made stuff p me off so I told him that the next tear out and upgrade job I was going to have him assist us, after that he shut the h up.

[osiyo]

I had one service tech who got on my nerves with the whole controls has it made stuff p me off so I told him that the next tear out and upgrade job I was going to have him assist us, after that he shut the h up.

Yeah, that sort of thing can get old pretty quick.

But part of the job is developing a thick skin. It's always either, "You've got the cushy job." or if something isn't working right its automatically the fault of the controls guy.

Oh, or something like the other day when a customer was watching me work and I had to stop and look something up in a help file. The guy looked at me as if he thought I was an idiot and commented, "Isn't that something you should know off the top of your head?"

I just took the comment with a grain of salt and mentioned that I had thousands and thousands of little tidbits of info in my head, that had to be there. But there were thousands more I only needed to recall/use maybe once a year or three. And, "No" I didn't always remember things I used that seldom. It was enough to know the info existed and how to use it, I looked it up when needed.

[tuncos]

Oh, or something like the other day when a customer was watching me work...

I believe there should be a surcharge when the customer "watches" programming or graphics work. They quite often slow the process down or give worthless suggestions...

[y7turbo]

I believe there should be a surcharge when the customer watches...

FIXED

[AutoPilot]

Typical day at the normal Controls Company Office
Secretary buzzes the intercom: "LUser on line 1"
I pick-up and say "Hello" nice as pie, having completed the company phone skills course.
LUser: "THIS F..KING HIGH DOLLAR ALARM SYSTEM YOU INSTALLED IS GOING OFF AND I CAN'T STOP THE ALARM FROM COMING BACK!!!" he screams
I ask "What does the alarm say" in a clam soothing voice.
LUser: "SERVER ROOM AC UNIT COMPRESSOR FAILURE"
LUser: "I ACKNOLEGED IT AND IT COMES BACK AFTER A FEW MINUTES"---"MY PASSWORD LEVEL WON'T ALLOW ME TO DISABLE IT"
"Did you call the service company? That shouldn't happen!" I say trying to sound concerned
LUser: "NO.... COSTS TOO MUCH!" "BESIDES I CHECKED THE AC UNIT AND THE FAN IS RUNNING" He screams
LUser: "I JUST WANT TO DISABLE THE F..KING ALARM!!!" He screams
"Not recommended, I think you should call your AC service company" I say trying to sound more concerned.
LUser: "NO.... COSTS TOO MUCH!" "JUST CHANGE MY PASSWORD LEVEL"
"Okay, if you insist" I say, nice as pie
Clickity, clickity, click
"Okay -- your password should allow you to disable the alarm now" I say clamly.
LUser:" OKAY IT WORKED...The has gone away now... Thank you thank you." in a much calmer voice.
"You're Welcome...glad I could help..Have a nice day" I say trying not to laugh too hard.
LUser:"Thanks Goodbye" click.
A few hours later....
Secretary buzzes the intercom: "LUser on line 1"
I pick-up and say "Hello" nice as pie, having completed the company phone skills course.
LUser: "THIS F..KING HIGH DOLLAR ALARM SYSTEM YOU INSTALLED IS GOING OFF AND I CAN'T STOP THE ALARM FROM COMING BACK!!!" he screams
I ask "What does the alarm say" in a clam soothing voice.
LUser:"HIGH TEMPERATURE IN SERVER ROOM" He screams
"Did you call the service company? That shouldn't happen!" I say, trying to sound more concerned
LUser: "NO.... COSTS TOO MUCH!" "BESIDES I CHECKED THE AC UNIT AND THE FAN IS RUNNING" He screams
LUser: " BESIDES ITS FEELS NICE IN THE COMPUTER ROOM, NOT AS COLD AS IT USUALLY IS! YOUR ALARM SYSTEM IS SET WAY TOO LOW! JUST FIX MY PASSWORD LEVEL A$$HOLE" He screams
"Okay, if you insist" I say, nice as pie
Clickity, clickity, click
"Okay -- your password should allow you to disable the alarm now" I say clamly.
LUser:" OKAY IT WORKED...The has gone away now... Thank you thank you." in a much calmer voice.
"You're Welcome...glad I could help..Have a nice day" I say trying not to laugh too hard.
LUser:"Thanks Goodbye" click.
Less than 15 minutes later.
Secretary buzzes the intercom: "The LUsers Boss is on line 1, and boy is he pissed"
I pick-up and say "Hello" nice as pie, having completed the company phone skills course.
LUsers Boss: "THAT HIGH DOLLAR F..KING ALARM SYSTEM YOU SOLD US DOESN'T WORK!!" --"MY IT DEPARTMENT JUST SAID ALL OUR SERVERS WENT DOWN ON SOME KIND OF THERMAL $HIT CUT-OUT" He screams
"Yes your maintenance man called earlier, I recommended he call the AC Service company!" I say in calming voice.
LUsers Boss:"NO NO.. COSTS TOO MUCH"
"So.. Let me make sure I have this correct...You want the new computer alarm system to fix the mechanical AC problems?" I say in a confused tone of voice.
LUers Boss:"YES..YES THAT'S WHAT WE PAID YOU FOR" He screams
"But, what does your maintenance man do?" I say in a concerned voice
LUsers Boss: "He changes the light bulbs and cleans the women's restrooms! WOMEN ARE MESSY PIGS AND ALWAYS COMPLAIN ABOUT THE $HITTY MESS IN THE RESTROOM !!"
"Well, our contract was to provide an alarm system to warn your maintenance staff if any of the critical AC units failed.. I guess I could write a program that would fix the AC unit. But it will cost a little more. Can I just send the bill to your accounting department?" I humbly say.
LUsers Boss:"Gee that would be great.. How much do you think it would cost?" he whimpers
"Around $500 an alarm plus parts, computer labor and Freon" I say in firm voice.
LUsers Boss:"BOY THAT'S KINDA HIGH!" he whimpers again
"Yea, But your servers won't go down again!" I say as excitedly as I can.
LUsers Boss:"Okay Okay Just send the bill to accounting " he whimpers again
LUsers Boss:"How soon can you do it " he whimpers again
"I'll get right on it... Maybe next week some time!" I say calmly.
LUsers Boss:"DO IT AS SOON AS YOU CAN... MY SERVERS ARE DOWN" He screams again
"Okay.. Let me get started.. Goodbye OH and have a nice day" I say nice as pie.
I hang up and Google his address. Then I Google AC service company's in his area and find one two blocks away. I call them and make the deal to have them receive the email alarms, go charge up the unit and bill the LUsers accounting department, all automatically.
Oh yea ... I also have my accounting department send a $2K bill to the LUsers accounting department. I need to earn my pay too.

[skwsproul]

Yeah, that sort of thing can get old pretty quick.

But part of the job is developing a thick skin. It's always either, "You've got the cushy job." or if something isn't working right its automatically the fault of the controls guy.

Oh, or something like the other day when a customer was watching me work and I had to stop and look something up in a help file. The guy looked at me as if he thought I was an idiot and commented, "Isn't that something you should know off the top of your head?"

I just took the comment with a grain of salt and mentioned that I had thousands and thousands of little tidbits of info in my head, that had to be there. But there were thousands more I only needed to recall/use maybe once a year or three. And, "No" I didn't always remember things I used that seldom. It was enough to know the info existed and how to use it, I looked it up when needed.

I/we have a saying "its always controls and when it isnt, controls figured it out"

Another saying "Its not whether I have all of the answers its whether or not I know where to get the answer that makes me good at what I do"

[osiyo]

I/we have a saying "its always controls and when it isnt, controls figured it out"

Yeah, that's just all too true ... all too often.

I'd never be able to count up the endless hours I've spent troubleshooting other people's problems. But had to do it just to prove it wasn't OUR problem.

Almost impossible to get paid for the time, of course.


Another saying "Its not whether I have all of the answers its whether or not I know where to get the answer that makes me good at what I do"

LOL ... I like that.

It also reminds me of a discussion held long ago, back in my sea going days. Which revolved around the subject that certain people get paid for what they know, not for the amount of actual physical labor involved in a job.

I was a young sea pup at the time, and an old salt related a tale that was probably fictional but which held elements of the truth in order to make his point.

There was a ship scheduled to get underway. Getting underway, on time, and fully capable of performing all its assigned missions was critical. But a few days before they were scheduled to get underway the had a boiler problem. This was a large, marine propulsion boiler with all the latest technology of the time, including pneumatic ABC (automatic boiler control). The boiler and engine room crew worked round the clock to try to identify and correct the issue. But the problem eluded them.

Finally the ship's Captain and the Chief Engineer, in desperation as the clock counted down, made a call for outside technical assistance. In response to that call an old boiler technician was dispatched to the ship. A much experienced old fellow, whom ... it was rumored ... had gotten his start back when ships still commonly burned black oil and a few still used coal stokers. And who'd worked on and studied every evolution in the technology since.

This old fellow showed up and was quickly shown to the fire room. He asked some questions of the crew and then spent not more than 30 minutes looking around at the piping and control arrangements. He paused and lit up a cigar and appeared to be thinking for a few minutes, then calmly opened up a small valve while saying, "Okay, fire her up, she'll work now." And it did.

Up at the Captain's cabin the old boilerman wrote up his bill and presented it. The bottom line was for $2500. Which outraged the Skipper. "What is this? All you had to do was open one little valve. This is outrageous !"

Calmly the old fellow retrieved his bill and wrote another. This one read that he was billing $5 for opening the valve, and $2495 for knowing which valve to open. He also reminded that Skipper that it'd cost that ship far more than that in labor and lost time as their own crew had attempted but failed to find the problem, and could have cost them MUCH more if they'd not been able to get underway on schedule.

[ControlY0urMind]

I'll be the first to admit, I was programming hvac equipment before I actually knew what it was and did. I was able to wing it through for several years like that, and I learned so much about controls, and little about HVAC equipment and sequences. Then I realized I really learned the whole thing backwards. I should have started with learning the equipment and physics of HVAC, then learn how to control it. Now I'm trying to right the wrong. I found an opportunity to go to work for an engineering firm and surround myself with a group of very intelligent folks. I've learned tons thus far, and even though I miss doing the amount of controls that I used to, I feel I'm a good "controls guy" for realizing my flaws and find a way to work them out.

As far as the topic of the post, anyone who has a decent understanding of computers is a good candidate, but I do believe a young service tech with several years experience would be the best candidate, due to 99% of young folks are very good with computers.

[osiyo]

due to 99% of young folks are very good with computers.

Hmmm. Can't say that I can agree with that last thing you said.

I'm surrounded with young folks in my daily life. Add that on a part time basis I teach some evening courses that includes mostly young folks.

While the youth I see and deal with are very adept at texting, figuring out how to download, play, save, or send a file onto other friends. Or similar things a computer USER might want to do.

Most of em haven't the faintest clue how the things actually work under the hood, and programming logic itself is something most have no clue about.

Not that they NEED to know such things, or necessarily SHOULD know them. And that'd be the topic of a different discussion all together.

But the fact that many of today's young folks can USE a digital communications device adroitly ... is a far cry from them also understanding the science and technology of how they really do what they do. Much less the science and technology behind how HVAC systems work.

It's about like a couple of discussions I recently had.

The first involved a niece of mine. VERY bright young lady. Considered by all her friends as somewhat of a guru in matters of hand held digital devices (in fact she makes a living selling such) and using a desktop or laptop. They all flock to her asking for advice/instruction on how to do this or that. Even when not working, her cell phone is constantly buzzing, or friends are dropping by, as folks seek her help or advice about how to do this or that. Or what's the latest GeeWhiz applet. And so forth.

But I gotta tell yah, she really doesn't know how all that stuff REALLY works under the hood. I know, I'm her Goto person. Routinely and regularly get a call that starts, "Uncle .... help ....".

Myself? I couldn't set up a Twitter account and implement advanced features on one to save my life. Don't use it, don't care, probably never will. I just barely know what Facebook is, and what I do know about it is more than I really want to know. And my personal cell phone has .... ohhh ... probably 1001 features I don't know how to use. And I don't care.

What I can tell yah is that young lady mucks up her laptops quite routinely by doing stupid stuff. In one instance, she had about 50 apps all trying to load at the same time during start up, causing very long startup times, sluggish operation once the darn thing was booted, etc. She's done the same sort of thing on numerous occasions. Her usual solution is to decide that (1) she's got a virus, or (2) she needs a new, more modern laptop. In either event, her usual solution is to give the old one to someone and buy a new one. Then this once it happened with a unit not a month old, and supposedly state of the art, loaded with everything. So she hauled it over to me to look at.

I looked, informed her of what the problem was. And then tried to explain the issue. She got that deer in the headlights look. I tried simpler explanations and terms not exceeding 2 syllables. She still didn't really comprehend. I finally told her, "Okay, just trust me .... don't do this ... this ... and this, any more."

Might as well have been talking to a wall. She did. System got to be almost unusable again, so she went out and bought a new one with even more ram, hard storage, multiple processors, etc.

<Shrug> What can an Uncle do?

One day she brought me one of her phones. Actually a hand held digital device. I forget the name, wasn't really interested. iPhone? I think. Maybe just an iPhone like device. Anyway, she knows how to make such devices to about anything one can imagine, dance, sing, cook and serve dinner, wipe your a**, etc. It's one of those things she sells for a living. Anyway, she was having a problem with this one. Was acting up, dialing numbers she didn't want it to, deleting files she meant to save, and so forth.

Gad, she must've had thousands of assorted files on it. Pics, music, video, games, and endless little apps.

She showed me as she made it do this and that, and explained some of the odd things it did. I took the info gathered and did a Google search. Results indicated the likelihood that she'd picked up a certain virus that was going around at the time. One embedded in a certain Java app. So I explained that to her. She blinked and asked me what the heck "Java" was, and how in the world could such a thing dial her phone or delete files.

<Sigh> I tried to explain the basic idea of a computer program, it was wasted time.

FWIW, her final solution was to just buy a new gadget and start fresh again. She's really good at USING such things, had it all configured and loaded up with endless stuff in a jiffy.

The other discussion I had was with a guy who teaches both Driver's Ed and an Automotive Technology (the new name for car mechanic) course over at one of the local schools. He commented on something he'd noticed in recent years. He's been teaching both courses for many years, something like 25 years.

His comment was that he'd noticed that his students were as adept, and maybe even more so, at learning to drive well as they'd ever been. But more and more, he'd noticed, they had less and less knowledge of how the things actually worked. One comment he made was his wonder at the fact that a new student driver could hop in a car that was new to them and immediately figure out how to work an advanced digital music system ... but was clueless as to how to find the engine oil dipstick, check coolant fluid level, or even to understand WHY it was important that he or she should actually know how to do such things.

While it is true that more students today have had some exposure to actual training and education about such things as operating systems, concepts of computer programming, and so forth than would be the case .... ohhh ... 20 years ago.

Its not so true that 99% of young folks today are very GOOD with computers in any way other than finding their way around a keyboard, mouse, or touchscreen and USING apps made by someone else.

Just my thoughts. Not worth much.

[ControlY0urMind]

Hmmm. Can't say that I can agree with that last thing you said.

I'm surrounded with young folks in my daily life. Add that on a part time basis I teach some evening courses that includes mostly young folks.

While the youth I see and deal with are very adept at texting, figuring out how to download, play, save, or send a file onto other friends. Or similar things a computer USER might want to do.

Most of em haven't the faintest clue how the things actually work under the hood, and programming logic itself is something most have no clue about.

Not that they NEED to know such things, or necessarily SHOULD know them. And that'd be the topic of a different discussion all together.

But the fact that many of today's young folks can USE a digital communications device adroitly ... is a far cry from them also understanding the science and technology of how they really do what they do. Much less the science and technology behind how HVAC systems work.

It's about like a couple of discussions I recently had.

The first involved a niece of mine. VERY bright young lady. Considered by all her friends as somewhat of a guru in matters of hand held digital devices (in fact she makes a living selling such) and using a desktop or laptop. They all flock to her asking for advice/instruction on how to do this or that. Even when not working, her cell phone is constantly buzzing, or friends are dropping by, as folks seek her help or advice about how to do this or that. Or what's the latest GeeWhiz applet. And so forth.

But I gotta tell yah, she really doesn't know how all that stuff REALLY works under the hood. I know, I'm her Goto person. Routinely and regularly get a call that starts, "Uncle .... help ....".

Myself? I couldn't set up a Twitter account and implement advanced features on one to save my life. Don't use it, don't care, probably never will. I just barely know what Facebook is, and what I do know about it is more than I really want to know. And my personal cell phone has .... ohhh ... probably 1001 features I don't know how to use. And I don't care.

What I can tell yah is that young lady mucks up her laptops quite routinely by doing stupid stuff. In one instance, she had about 50 apps all trying to load at the same time during start up, causing very long startup times, sluggish operation once the darn thing was booted, etc. She's done the same sort of thing on numerous occasions. Her usual solution is to decide that (1) she's got a virus, or (2) she needs a new, more modern laptop. In either event, her usual solution is to give the old one to someone and buy a new one. Then this once it happened with a unit not a month old, and supposedly state of the art, loaded with everything. So she hauled it over to me to look at.

I looked, informed her of what the problem was. And then tried to explain the issue. She got that deer in the headlights look. I tried simpler explanations and terms not exceeding 2 syllables. She still didn't really comprehend. I finally told her, "Okay, just trust me .... don't do this ... this ... and this, any more."

Might as well have been talking to a wall. She did. System got to be almost unusable again, so she went out and bought a new one with even more ram, hard storage, multiple processors, etc.

<Shrug> What can an Uncle do?

One day she brought me one of her phones. Actually a hand held digital device. I forget the name, wasn't really interested. iPhone? I think. Maybe just an iPhone like device. Anyway, she knows how to make such devices to about anything one can imagine, dance, sing, cook and serve dinner, wipe your a**, etc. It's one of those things she sells for a living. Anyway, she was having a problem with this one. Was acting up, dialing numbers she didn't want it to, deleting files she meant to save, and so forth.

Gad, she must've had thousands of assorted files on it. Pics, music, video, games, and endless little apps.

She showed me as she made it do this and that, and explained some of the odd things it did. I took the info gathered and did a Google search. Results indicated the likelihood that she'd picked up a certain virus that was going around at the time. One embedded in a certain Java app. So I explained that to her. She blinked and asked me what the heck "Java" was, and how in the world could such a thing dial her phone or delete files.

<Sigh> I tried to explain the basic idea of a computer program, it was wasted time.

FWIW, her final solution was to just buy a new gadget and start fresh again. She's really good at USING such things, had it all configured and loaded up with endless stuff in a jiffy.

The other discussion I had was with a guy who teaches both Driver's Ed and an Automotive Technology (the new name for car mechanic) course over at one of the local schools. He commented on something he'd noticed in recent years. He's been teaching both courses for many years, something like 25 years.

His comment was that he'd noticed that his students were as adept, and maybe even more so, at learning to drive well as they'd ever been. But more and more, he'd noticed, they had less and less knowledge of how the things actually worked. One comment he made was his wonder at the fact that a new student driver could hop in a car that was new to them and immediately figure out how to work an advanced digital music system ... but was clueless as to how to find the engine oil dipstick, check coolant fluid level, or even to understand WHY it was important that he or she should actually know how to do such things.

While it is true that more students today have had some exposure to actual training and education about such things as operating systems, concepts of computer programming, and so forth than would be the case .... ohhh ... 20 years ago.

Its not so true that 99% of young folks today are very GOOD with computers in any way other than finding their way around a keyboard, mouse, or touchscreen and USING apps made by someone else.

Just my thoughts. Not worth much.

I guess my assumption wasn't 100% correct. I do believe I worded that wrong, as I was exagerating with the 99% number.

I fell into computers via video games. I learned a decent amount of basic computer knowledge persuing that venture. There a millions of kids going down the same road I went, and know unlimited amounts of information about computers and have no idea that the knowledge they hold could potentially lead them to a successful career. I was smart enough to figure that out before I ended up being stuck with a dead end job at Auto Zone. I was able mesh into controls fairly easily.

My dad for example has been doing HVAC for almost 30 years. Hes smart as a whip when it comes to mechanical things, but he asked my step-brother how to get onto the internet on his own home PC and there are only 4 icons on his desktop. 1 being Internet Explorer.

No offense to anyone's age, but I believe that the younger generation, granted they want to learn, would have a smoother transition to the control industry.

As you said, it might not be worth much, but thats just my thoughts.

[argyle socks]

I got into controls completely by accident ...
I was a fool and went to one of those IT training fast-track schools. Then their job placement put me somewhere that was looking for people with an "IT and customer service background" and it ended up being HVAC controls.

[Cagey57]

In general...most good controls techs usually come from a mechanical or electrical background. Some are Computer types that are gear heads in their spare time.

The most common qualities I have seen as applying to all good controls techs is 1. Common Sense, 2. The desire to learn, 3. Solid understanding of electrical theory and basic physics.

osiyo, as always you never at a loss for words ! J/K

My standard comment is "Everything is a controls problem until I Prove otherwise" ! Any more I don't tell the "other people" what the (their) problem is unless they have been "Team Players". That means, if they threw me under the bus yesterday/last week/last month/last year they can figure out their own da** problems unless they want to pay me for my diagnostics ! By the same token I try really hard to keep from throwing someone else in front of the bus if at all possible. I might need their help next time it's my problem.

just my 2 cents.

[control_8]

This thread is very interesting to me. It's kinda funny how everyone (in previous threads) is quick to "blame" the engineer or how the engineer didn't do their due diligence on a particular project.

However when the shoe is on the other foot (i.e. customer looking over the controls "engineer" shoulder), it sounds like the same stuff ("they don't know everything", "I could have found that out," "They are tied to a specific manufacturer," etc.).

Absorb and ponder. Please realize this when you critize the engineer/specifier. Nobody's perfect. Just because you found one thing out that the engineer/specifier forgot/misplaced doesn't make you a "controls master of the universe." This industry is about taking it as well as teaching it...get used to it.

-control_8

[osiyo]

Absorb and ponder. Please realize this when you critize the engineer/specifier. Nobody's perfect. Just because you found one thing out that the engineer/specifier forgot/misplaced doesn't make you a "controls master of the universe." This industry is about taking it as well as teaching it...get used to it.

-control_8

Fair enough. True enough.

LOL ... although I've never had even a small, momentary thought that I might be some "controls master of the universe".

In fact, some days .... many of them ... I have exactly the opposite opinion of my knowledge and abilities.

As concerns the project engineer/specifier and his/her mistakes or misunderstanding of things I take that with a grain of salt most times.

In truth, many of them have little to no real knowledge of the nuts and bolts of DDC control systems and how they work. But I don't really expect them to.

Similarly I don't really expect a HVAC system design engineer to know just all that much about the nuts and bolts technicalities of an air handler, chiller, etc. Most would make the world's lousiest troubleshooters or service techs.

Where I work, its pretty common for us to find that that things which are written in a spec book are either flat wrong, or not the best way to go about something. We just RFI it, and suggest appropriate changes.

The only real problem is when said engineer is the stubborn sort who thinks he knows more than he really does.

Fortunately, most of them aren't that way.

In the case of those that are, we make sure we raise the issues early and document, document, document. And make darn sure the end customer knows about our concerns and disagreements.

[control_8]

It's been a while since I inserted a He-Man reference in my day-to-day vocabulary, so I figured to throw it out there... :)


osiyo...I agree with you 100%. From what I learned it's always good to be humble about this kind of work...you never know what/who you are going to run into and what you will learn. It's always funny to see a guy who "knows it all" (and acts like it) and gets "served."

I guess to bring the topic back on point, the same goes with a new hire...you can have all the technical ability in the world, but if you don't have an open mind, I don't think you'll get too far. Nuggets of information are all over the place (other techs, engineers, tennants, investigations, etc.), part of the fun of this work is finding them and using them to the best of your ability...

[osiyo]

Nuggets of information are all over the place (other techs, engineers, tennants, investigations, etc.), part of the fun of this work is finding them and using them to the best of your ability...

I've personally never met a man yet who could not teach me SOMETHING I did not know.

A person should try to be a better listener, as versus just dismissing people and their thoughts and ideas.

Yah never know what you might learn, and from whom.

[cleancondenser]

The trend with the engineers.Many companies recruit kids,a year before they are out of college.
A couple of companies I know set up a booth at the college job fair.Yes true they want to have fresh minds to mold, but also they have junior engineers at a very low rate.

The ones I work with are good, they try and are very eager to learn.

I have dealt with young and old,who still see no harm,at all, in allowing an
air conditioning compressor to run for a minute after the evaporator fan has shut down.
There are still those who do not understand the sequence of operation of return air and Outside dampers once a smoke detector has detected smoke.

I was on a job not long ago where an engineer sent me to troubleshoot an expansion valve and get some duct sizes to resize ducts.

The coil was intermittently freezing up,WHICH was due to low air flow .
However the true cause was all the V.A.V. boxes would close, and there was no Bypass damper installed.
First I point these things out very politely,then after they become resentful ,I become a little more firm in the issue.
The engineers who have a little problem ,are the ones who have been in the industry more than ten years

I am glad I learned controls from the ground up.

[tntgrp]

I am a data and network guy who wants to learn Novar/Trend Controls. I am in Cleveland, OH.....any Ideas on where I can get this training? Thanks, tntgrp.

[skwsproul]

I've personally never met a man yet who could not teach me SOMETHING I did not know.

A person should try to be a better listener, as versus just dismissing people and their thoughts and ideas.

Yah never know what you might learn, and from whom.

I many times tell the other techs who look to me for guidance "you will never learn everything you need to know from me alone, I am a culmination of many techs who I have learned from over my 15 years and I still learn something almost everyday and in fact there have been instances that I learn techniques from new techs like you. Techniques that were taught to you by your instructors experience."

The only dumb arses in the hvac field are the ones too hard headed to realize that they do not know everything and that they can not be proven wrong by some rookie. These hvhacks have all kinds of their work on the wall of shame.

There are times that the new guy will challenge me and for a long time the hardest thing for me to do was let them prove me wrong. Now I just tell them to show me, most of the time I have it right but sometimes I have to stand back and say good job you are right.

[argyle socks]

I am a data and network guy who wants to learn Novar/Trend Controls. I am in Cleveland, OH.....any Ideas on where I can get this training? Thanks, tntgrp.

Get hired by Novar? That's a good place to get the training. Email me, I am also in Cleveland.

[reissman]

I sat through Tridium training next to a guy (kid) who was an electrical engineer wizbang. He was following the class on one side of his PC and moderating some type of chat room on the other side. VERY smart. I don't remember the exact details but when it came to the project at the end in the spec we had to control a Boiler and a chiller. He decided to put two separate sensors in the program instead of just one with a sequence and a Heat enable and Cooling enable setpoint. It took my a bit to explain why you wouldn't want two different sensors.

I am sure he is doing fine, but I bet he pissed of some installers along the way.

[tntgrp]

I live in Cleveland but I travel all the way to Texas. Where can I get this training?


a service tech with some computer knowledge, and desire to put in the after hours learning, can be brought up to speed pretty quickly..

[freddy-b]

I live in Cleveland but I travel all the way to Texas. Where can I get this training?
?????

[Loose Cranks]

I find it somewhat ironic, for my personal situation, to see this thread at this time. I am a "freon jock" with over a quarter century commericial / industrial experience now working for a controls company, strictly on controls. Although I had a significant amount of controls experience working as a HVAC mechanic, I have found the transition more than a bit of a challenge. I told the recruiter and stressed in the interviews my "limited DDC knowledge" and "weaknesses around networking and BACNET issues." Guess what I have been doing in the last few weeks of my 4week tenure? You're right! Let me deal with bad inputs / outputs and repair peripheral devices and build from there? Maybe at least get to know the buildings and customers? Just a thought. Ok, forget it, give me the network problems and BACNET problems right out of the gate!!!
The company has been supportive, I have done my best to alleviate customers concerns regarding a "new guy finding his way around" and did I mention that this has been one of the most challenging jobs I have ever had? I don't remember ever working for an HVAC contractor and throwing the newbie into major compressor overhauls or such. Did I also mention how much less money I make too?

Anyway, lets get back on topic; difficulty in finding controls guys. :)

[k7faq]

I live in Cleveland but I travel all the way to Texas. Where can I get this training?

if you are looking for Novar / Trend training, you need to go through your employer to contact Honeywell (Novar/Trend division) to obtain their training schedules.

Just keep in mind that unless they have improved their products since 2008, their "Trend Lon" devices (unitary) operate on a 'hacked Lon', it is not to LON standard. Their Q3 devices are proprietary modbus. They were working towards BacNet, however given how they can't follow LON, I would not hold my breathe to it following the Standard, or if it does, barely.

HTH!

[k7faq]

Where do the best come from? (not service techs)

I don't think training up guys who did CAT5 beforehand is the answer.

Trying to think about quality on the install, productivity, and getting it right the first time.

Whats the best pool of people to draw from?

I moved to Mechanical after I got tired, after 12+ years, of IT and every customer always blaming the Service Tech for microslop's mistakes...

After following the advise of my mechanical Supervisor, I stuck with commercial mechanical service for 2 years then went to controls.

Having IT (12+ years), Electronics (15+ years), Mechanical (5+ years) and Programming experience (4+ lang's) it was quite easy for me to quickly understand how things operate. After 1 week of installing controllers to become familiar with the I/O's and wiring, which I had not done before, I was moved to Service.

I understand what you mean about the comms issues. My second service call was to troubleshoot a Novar comms issue. Looking back, I was _MUCH_ happier with BacNet. I have also had to deal with proprietary RS-485, N2 and LON comms issues.

Where do good Controls guys come from?
As many have stated here, a good candidate needs to have a diverse background. If they don't understand commercial mechanical equipment, from window shakers to chillers and _everything_ in between, they have more opportunities to create huge headaches and they won't be able to stand their ground with a _good_ mechanical tech to prove where the fault is, should it be mechanical.

My 2 cents...

[miller_elex]

Thanks for all the replys, its been very informative.

I have come to the conclusion that the most steady supply of men with controls potential is ex-navy nukes.

[BACnet]

If they have ICAS experience, that should go a long way.