Heat Pump Squeal

[csc67]

I live in the North-East and have a 1993 Trane XE 1000 (TWR036C100A1) heat pump that randomly squeals loud enough to wake me up at night (sounds like a slipping belt in your car).

Any thoughts on what is causing this noise?

I realize the unit is getting toward End Of Life, but would like to resolve this short-term issue before tackling a purchase of a new one

Thanks

Chris

[INTECHBILL]

Need a bit more detailed information , Is the noise the outdoor section or the indoor section , Indoor it's more likely a bearing in your air handler, out section more likely the defrost cycle or related- remember in the 90's was " Can't stop a Trane "

[SBKold]

Its the outdoor fan motor. Had several of these do this and a good tech can oil the motor and it should be fine.

[csc67]

Outdoor Heat pump is making the noise

In reference to the "oil the motor comment", aren't the fan motors sealed? If not, is there an oil port where I can apply some oil

Thanks for the quick responses

Chris

[SBKold]

Even if the motor is sealed I have been able to oil them....its tricky but it can be done. Just try to get some in the shaft end. Thats as much as I can tell you w/o the site deleting the post. I just cant guarantee that a service company wouldnt rather tell you they cant oil it and install a replacement.

[DavyB]

Even if the motor is sealed I have been able to oil them....its tricky but it can be done. Just try to get some in the shaft end. Thats as much as I can tell you w/o the site deleting the post. I just cant guarantee that a service company wouldnt rather tell you they cant oil it and install a replacement.

I'm pretty sure that you cannot add oil to sealed bearings. More than likely you added oil to the internal windings of the motor. The oil will break down the coated windings and eventually fail.

[SBKold]

I disagree and thats ok. You can get some oil in there. And it quietens them up. Ive done this to several units this season without a single callback (i did replace the motor on one unit because it was still under warranty...but the customer said it hadnt made a single noise in the week it took to get the warrantied one). Plus the OP's unit may not be sealed.

[beenthere]

Don't post links like that.

[behappy]

Don't post links like that.

maya culpa, got in the Twillie mode

[kls-ccc]

I don't think it is your motor, motors ussually don't squeal from dry bearings then run fine. If a motor has dry bearings and starts making noise it will ussaully continue. I think if you watch it closely you will find that it happens at the end of the defrost cycle. The pressures get to high and the internal releif opens and you get a high pitched whistle or squeal from the pressures trying to equalizing inside the compressor. The defrost board will time out and the unit will shift back into heating whch equalizes the presssure, closing the internal relief stopping the noise, then it will run quietly till the next defrost. You will need a tech to verify the exact problem but you can verify that it is a defrost related by listening for the unit to shift into defrost, there is generally a loud swooshing noise both when it shift into and out of defrost.
good luck.

[yellowirenut]

With sealed or shielded bearings, which tend to be in the small- to mid-size range, the risks associated with bearing relubrication outweigh the potential benefits. The bearings are inexpensive and often the more financially prudent decision is to run them to failure.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/209/electric-motor-bearing-lubrication

[SBKold]

I don't think it is your motor, motors ussually don't squeal from dry bearings then run fine. .

Hmm willing to put money on that?:payattention:

[beenthere]

Was the unit serviced recently. Including last summer or spring.

[DavyB]

I disagree and thats ok. You can get some oil in there. And it quietens them up. Ive done this to several units this season without a single callback (i did replace the motor on one unit because it was still under warranty...but the customer said it hadnt made a single noise in the week it took to get the warrantied one). Plus the OP's unit may not be sealed.

Get some oil in where?? Do you really think that you are lubricating a sealed bearing? They are sealed. Do you unseal them first? Isn't that like adding oil to a compressor by splashing it on the case?

Not trying to argue with you, but I think you may be missing the point.

[beenthere]

This would be a good discussion for the pro tech forum.

Get too much more involved/technical, and it will be moved there.

[SBKold]

Hopefully i will get my Pro Status soon and can start a thread there if you guys are truly interested how i get oil in there. I really have had good results doing this. I offer it to the consumer not as a permanent solution (although some of these motors still havent failed yet) but a possible much cheaper alternative to replacing the motor.

[beenthere]

Once you get your pro membership.
Do that. And we will tell you the pitfalls of what your doing.

[SBKold]

Will do. Again im not saying this is then end all solutuion to every bad fan motor that has tight bearings. I have observed in cold weather motors sometimes make this horrible noise that sounds like what OP posted, and a little lube in the right spots helps (sometimes corrects) this issue.

[behappy]

This would be a good discussion for the pro tech forum.

Get too much more involved/technical, and it will be moved there.

Then can I post the link? :grin2:

[beenthere]

Then can I post the link? :grin2:

No. It would still be deleted. :tussor:

[csc67]

Last serviced July 2008 (so 18 months ago)

I checked the heat pump about 1 hour ago and the fan was not running and when I pulling off the plastic cap above the fan motor and it was very warm to the touch, so I turned it off

I just turned the heat pump back on and the fan would move about an inch, then stop for three seconds, then move another inch, then stop for three seconds and repeated this for 30-45 seconds. Then it began to turn without sticking and resumed back to normal

Again - Thanks for all of the feedback

[beenthere]

Time to get a tech out.
Leaving it operate this way will harm your compressor. that you may not get another month out of it.

[SBKold]

Pay Up!!!!

[yellowirenut]

Pay Up!!!!

?? huh?

[DavyB]

Last serviced July 2008 (so 18 months ago)

I checked the heat pump about 1 hour ago and the fan was not running and when I pulling off the plastic cap above the fan motor and it was very warm to the touch, so I turned it off

I just turned the heat pump back on and the fan would move about an inch, then stop for three seconds, then move another inch, then stop for three seconds and repeated this for 30-45 seconds. Then it began to turn without sticking and resumed back to normal

Again - Thanks for all of the feedback

Sure it wasn't in defrost?

[csc67]

Sure it wasn't in defrost?

DavyB - Unsure if it was in de-frost mode since I'm not sure what the normal sequence of events are for a heat pump

[behappy]

No. It would still be deleted. :tussor:


:censored:


:angel:

[Trog]

Pay Up!!!!

Yeah, sort of.

Imagine, if you will, crappy import bearings with "square" balls finally decide they've had enough of going in circles and momentarily protest in shrill voice. Enter the service technician who trickles a little oil down the shaft. It does no harm, but the next time the square balls align, they find themselves silenced as the shaft spins slickly inside the now lubricated hole in the inner race.

Instantly, the entire ball bearing assembly becomes a sleeve bearing, and the equipment keeps functioning without seeming problems. It will be a while before shaft or bearing hole wears sufficiently to cause noticeable dysfunction. It may be a long while, or it may be a short while, but eventually the square balls will have their way, and the unit will enter the Twilight Zone.

Submitted for your approval......... :det:

[csc67]

One more 'build' the wife mentioned to me - It only happens when it is cold (below 20 degrees)

[SBKold]

Yes I noticed the same issue while it was 20 and below here. My own Trane Heat Pump had both the indoor and outdoor motors start making the same belt squeal you describe within 48hrs. Id love to find out what about the cold temps (its right about 20deg too!) makes these motors do this? I felt like it wasnt a sign the motor was bad. I oiled mine and they havent made a sound yet. I know everyone is tellin me its not a good solution but i guess i have a good test going here at my own home. I also had 3others in the field where it was the same complaint and i oiled them too. I know these customers will call me back if they heard it again as they are loyal customers and I explained to them how oiling it was an attemot to save them money and if it comes back Ill replace the motor. Noone has called back yet.

[csc67]

Sounds like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ubmi6_0MI

Didn't know it got down to 20 degrees in FL

[beenthere]

Pulling the disconnect while the unit is running and then putting it back in a few seconds later is not good for the compressor.

You need a service tech there to check it while its running like that. ASAP!

[Stamas]

I also had 3others in the field where it was the same complaint and i oiled them too. I know these customers will call me back if they heard it again as they are loyal customers and I explained to them how oiling it was an attemot to save them money and if it comes back Ill replace the motor. Noone has called back yet.

Do you work for yourself or someone else?
If you worked for me you'd be working for someone else.:toetap:

One of the worst things for sleeve bearing permanently lubed motors is the wind.

[beenthere]

One of the worst things for sleeve bearing permanently lubed motors is the wind.


Something about X RPM being required to start the sleeve bearing to lubricate.

[csc67]

Chances that I can get it to replicate the noise while a tech is actually there is slim to nil since it only happens once in a while (probably only heard it about 8 times since December 2009)

I'm perplexed that there isn't a definitive solution to this issue

[SBKold]

Do you work for yourself or someone else?
If you worked for me you'd be working for someone else.:toetap:

One of the worst things for sleeve bearing permanently lubed motors is the wind.

Awww come on now...Im glad I dont work for you! We are just talking about a residential Heat Pump fan motor here. The thing is 17years old. You guys are :deadhorse: here. To lube or not to lube.....a reason to fire someone?

Also explain your wind theory....

[SBKold]

It was the coldest its been here for a long time. Thats looks like the very same unit I had that same noise with. And thats when I had this same issue that normally i dont see. Usually if the motors are squealing and stopping - -excessive bearing end play (horizontal) is found. All the motors I checked felt fine as far as bearing wear. But im getting persectuted for oiling these motors in the field. Im still unclear as to what the drawback is. Cant say damage to a 17yr old fan motor where the only option is replacement anyway.

On the newer Trane like in the Youtube vid I replaced the motor anyway cause it had Parts warranty. I did oil it while we were waiting for the warranty replacement and the noise never came back.

Beenthere is right you risk damaging compressor and or welding disconnect handle in there doing that.

[beenthere]

When you get your pro membership.

We can go over the expensive part your putting at risk.

[SBKold]

Thats something Ive heard from the ICM literature with my Comfort Center you dislike. It does this lubrication cycle on every startup. It started with my indoor motor making this noise - and I did think my box wore it out prematurely. But then 48hrs ltr my OD fan motor did this too.

[SBKold]

I'm perplexed that there isn't a definitive solution to this issue


There certainly is replace the fan motor! Problem solved:callpro:

[SBKold]

When you get your pro membership.

We can go over the expensive part your putting at risk.

Ok so youre saying that by not replacing it....If the motor shuts down again we risk toasting the comp. And thats a valid...I suppose....but im still not convinced I did anything horribly wrong and these customers will probably call me back still if those give more trouble.

[Stamas]

I think that you just answered your own question.

And that's if they call you back-(another clue there too).

[SBKold]

[QUOTE=Stamas;5676792And that's if they call you back-(another clue there too).[/QUOTE]

I truly know they will. I explained to them the issue, explained the options...replace mtr...lube mtr...problem may reoccur.....and they chose lets try oil for now. Our company is small and was built by going the extra mile for people. These were good customers who weve been working for a long time. I would challenge that these cust appreciate you even offerering the less expensive repair. Even if it was a temporary thing (they have lasted several more months by now) they usually appreciate it.

On another note....If every single unit (or even a high percentage) were found with both a bad fan motor and the comp was toast - - than I would definately not run the risk of fan motor shutdown. But I dont see this very often in our market. 90% of the time (maybe higher) the comp is fine when the OD fan stops in either heat or cool.

[csc67]

So what happens if the fan motor seizes-up and doesn't run? (I'm more concerned about the more expensive parts that might need to be replaced if fan motor dies)

I know this subjective, but what are the chances if the fan motor dies, that some other part will be compromised?

Thanks for all the thoughts & feedback

Chris

[beenthere]

You end up with not only still paying to replace the fan motor. But also a much more expensive part(often the compressor).

Which often makes it better to just get a new system.

Sometimes a penny saved can cost a ton later(maybe a few weeks, maybe a few months).

[aircrafters]

if the noise starts when outdoor shuts off . starts loud and lasts anywhere from 30 to120 seconds or is at alower pitch constantly you may have refrigerant whistleing by check valve at txv on heat pump ! trane has a magnet kit that mounts on tubing just above check valve to hold valve tight !!! have installed many kits for this very same type of noise on older trane heat pumps. trane now uses a teflon valve ball