YCAS140 Compressor Conversion

[dgruber]

M/N YCAS0140EC17YGADBC
Compressor DXS24LASB17 Part Number 364-49095-212

I am moving this subject here, as it started out in the Commercial Forum concerning YCAS Discharge Transducer issue's
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=342822.

Finally got the go ahead to pull and replace the #2 Compressor.

Found metal in the oil filter back on 9/2009. Oil analysis did not show excess, but suspected the compressor was started several times by in house full of liquid.

Anyhow, customer is not happy that York will not sell compressor parts.

Bitzer has a comparable compact screw compressor CSH-7561-80.

Parts are readily available for the Bitzer should future on site tear down is needed and any future rebuild is local and does not have to go back to York/JCI.

Plus price is half.

Customer wants us to install this and modify system piping to adapt.

Has anyone tried this on a YCAS140 machine? If so, are you satisfied with the performance?

[dgruber]

I am adding some more information from the other thread, which is only hours old.

klove wrote:
Haven't had to yet, but it's been considered a time or two. Hanbell also has replacement comps that will go back in place. I'm sure there are some others, also. I didn't get far enough into it to decide how we would make the capacity control signal work from the York panel to the aftermarket compressor. What's your plan?

dgruber wrote:
The plan is still evolving.

I'll download some Bitzer information to see what signal options I have for the slide valve.

Thanks for the input on that issue.

If you want I'll be happy to upload the Bitzer info for your review on that issue, also.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf sh-170-3 Bitzer.pdf (4.34 MB, 4 views)

dgruber wrote:
The York Type L oil would also need to be cleaned out.

The new Bitzer oil would then need to be added.

Need to find out if cross contamination of oils would be a issue.

If so, what would be the best way to clean and flush the oil system?


klove wrote:
In the attachment it looked like the oil separator is built in to the Bitzer. If so, cut out the ones in the affected circuit and pipe to discharge. Blow out the oil cooler and flush with RX11 if you're going to reuse the cooler, if not, cap it. Depending on the type of oil the Bitzer takes, run it and change oil a time or two and you should be good. If the Bitzer takes poe, a little mixture shouldn't hurt. This topic also brings up the method for tying in the oil pressure safeties to the micropanel.......

york56 wrote:
There was a post awhile back from DaveCR posting was Copland Screw in York YCAS you should contact him ask him some questions about his conversion looks nice.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version Name: bitzer01.JPG Views: 3 Size: 81.3 KB ID: 70872 Click image for larger version Name: bitzer02.JPG Views: 3 Size: 80.1 KB ID: 70882 Click image for larger version Name: bitzer03.JPG Views: 3 Size: 64.6 KB ID: 70892

[dgruber]

Here is the link to the DaveCR thread that york56 mentioned.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=339792&highlight=DaveCR

I am trying to get the attachment over here, but my connection is slow this morning. I will edit the above when I can to add the pdf on Bitzer.

[hw chiller man]

I have installed 6 Copeland (Bitzer) compressors in McQuay ALS units after repeated McQuay compressor failures. The oil separator is internal to the compressor and so the existing one on the York would need to be cut out. It is 5 years since the first compressor was replaced and 3 years since the last compressor was replaced.
We have had one failure since then. The affected compressor was dissassembled to see the cause of the failure and as a training session to see the inner workings. Fairly straight forward dissassembly. Turns out an area on the winding blew and got into the rotors which caused the rotors to seize. Talked to copeland and the rotor replacement would have been an easy repair.
This site runs 24-7 and is in Canada so the compressors have to put up with extreme coditions. For winter operation we have made up an armaflex cover over the oil separator to help the heaters. We remove them in the summer.
Your conttrol logic will be different from mine since the original ALS control was 4 stages and yours is infinite. You will need some type of multiplexer to convert the DC signal to digital signal. The Bitzer can be set up for Y-Delta or across the line start. I would also price the conversion to install liquid injection on the compressor to counteract high discharge temps.
As stated earlier purge the unit of all existing oil and I believe you will be quite satisfied with the results. Your customer will thank you because of the price savings and the substantial noise reduction over York compressors.

good luck with your conversion

[bobby m]

http://www.mcscontrols.com/Controls/controls.htm

Heres a link to a company who seems to specialize in screw comp/control retrofits.

[dgruber]

Thanks,

They have a good cross with Hanbell.

I found out today Bitzer/Copeland have separated, so Bitzer now has the Screw line.

I went to our Copeland dealer and was told this.

Guess I will need to look to Bitzer. Can not find a Hanbell dealer around here.

No one seems to cross York to Bitzer or Hanbell, but Trane, McQuay have crosses.

DaveCR found a good cross for York, so I will hope we can get him to chime in.

May PM him to look at this thread.

[DaveCR]

Mechanically, it's pretty easy. Remove the oil separator(s), cap the oil cooler lines, repipe suction and discharge lines and the compressor bolts to existing holes.

Line voltage work varies as the York could be across-the-line or Wye-Delta while the standard Bitzer CSH-75 will be across-the-line or part-winding. The existing motor leads will be long enough, but you'll need to cut new holes in the Bitzer terminal box.

Control work is pretty involved. You'll have to get creative with mounting of the discharge and oil temperature sensors. Bitzer's oil pressure range is nowhere near that of the York machine so you'll need to trick the York panel. The Bitzer slide valve is controlled with load/unload solenoids while York uses a current loop to modulate a single solenoid. Here again, some more control trickery is involved. The Bitzer machine has its own motor protection module which means the existing current/motor protector gets removed from the CR1 circuit, but must remain to provide an amperage reading to the York panel. I replace the automatic reset high pressure switch with a manual reset type.

[klove]

Guess I will need to look to Bitzer. Can not find a Hanbell dealer around here.


MCS in Florida or American Hermetics in Georgia. Google 'em.

[SMSChiller]

I have done compressor/control retrofits on about 20 different units, in your case it comes down to what signal is controlling the slide valve. If my memory is correct York uses a 0-10 VDC signal and most others use a pulse of 24V or 120V. Which means you would either need to find another compressor useing at 0-10 VDC signal or also do a control retrofit in which case a control like the MCS Magnum can control the new compressor with a pulse signal and any remaining compressors with 0-10 VDC analog output.. unfortunately I do not believe there is anyway to convert a 0-10 VDC signal to a pulse signal.

[INTECHBILL]

DaveCR offers some valuable information , mechanically is somewhat easy and just hype-up your controls .. As long as the client is paying some good money , I sometimes rewire the whole thing and add some new stuff - but try to back it up with a new schematic...

[dgruber]

MCS in Florida or American Hermetics in Georgia. Google 'em.


I may look to MCS for some control options.

I will stay with the Bitzer, simply because our local Tennessee supplier handles them and I believe it is much more effective to have local support from our supplier, should any compressor issues arise down the road.

I am curious what manufacturer of overload safety I will use. The existing Texas Instrument overload protector with the display has been smoked. The dip switches have been burnt, by evidence of black soot from a high voltage spike from the shorted windings, I would guess.

Since the amperage still be needed to send a signal to the control board, I will need to come up with a comparable setup.

This jobsite as its fair share of power problems and In House is always complaining after a power interruption, they had to climb up to the roof to reset. They want me to install phase protection and monitoring that would auto reset after a 5 minute time out period once conditions are normal.

I know Linebacker Phase monitor would do that, would have to wire control to a emergency shut down. I would still need amperage protection and a signal to the board.

My initial thought would be to shut down the entire machine with a phase monitor, phase reversal,phase loss, phase imbalance with emergency shut down, before the amperage protection picks up the fault due to voltage problems.

But should all supply voltage be Correct in a normal situation, the amperage detection can still shut down the machine in unfavorable situations or to communicate to the micro to unload compressor and all other references the existing micro requires.

What have others out there come up with?

[klove]

If you start changing too much, then you're liable to swap your retrofit problems over to the other compressor, or wind up with two totally separate control circuits.

Might want to do as Dave and use the standard TI overload to feed info to the micropanel for program driven issues, and use the Bitzer supplied motor protector in the CR1 circuit.

There are analog to digital converters, see www.kele.com, that you can set up to take the 0-10 volt signal and stage the capacity control.

Oil pressure safety supplied by a stand-alone Bitzer supplied control tied into the main control circuit appropriately, with fixed resistors in place of the existing oil pressure transducers. Oil temp safety and readout done with the original sensor if you can find a place to put it, or (I'm pretty sure) you can get a 50,000 ohm sensor and mount as needed.

[Randy S.]

I salute anyone who can beat that particular OEM out of a buck.

[dgruber]

Great feedback and discussion!!

This is a R-22 System.

May as well stick with it as R-22 should be around until 2020. I hate to see R-22 go. I still hate seeing R-12 gone and R-11, R-500 and R-502.

Chiller may be changed out by 2020.

On the other hand, what if we changed the other compressor at the same time and convert everything. The other compressor already has serious issues and ti will need to be replaced as budget allows.

The chiller is oversized for the application and R134a or R407c option is in the existing micro programing, as a option.

Any thoughts?

[Robert1078]

I have noticed a post by Bobby M to you about MCS Controls. I just wanted to let you know that we have done about 8 upgrades on YCAS chillers in the past 2 years with controls and Hanbell compressors

[heavymetaldad]

Sounds like an interesting project.

[stickerhead]

I have noticed a post by Bobby M to you about MCS Controls. I just wanted to let you know that we have done about 8 upgrades on YCAS chillers in the past 2 years with controls and Hanbell compressors

Do the Handbell and if you can sell MCS Magnum ot go with it, three year warranty becomes a good selling point! Been here, done it! Got a tee shirt!

[Robert1078]

Stickerhead I am the field service indivual for MCS. It makes a nice relife of a chiller.

[dgruber]

Robert1078,

What is your email and I will contact you.

I cannot Private Message you until you post more to this site.

[Robert1078]

dgruber My e-mail is rab@mcscontrols.com

[dgruber]

What have all done with the York Compressors once you have taken them out and retrofited with either Bitzer or Hanbell.

Is there a compressor rebuilder that would purchase the cores for rebuild or remanufacture?

Does York purchase these back?

Or are these now boat anchors?

[stickerhead]

Stickerhead I am the field service indivual for MCS. It makes a nice relife of a chiller.

Is this Brunshidle?

[Robert1078]

This is Brunshidle stickerhead

[ahtsales1]

I saw that you are in TN, what part? American Hermetics of Nashille supplies Hanbell and Bitzer Compressors.