Opinions on three possible systems for new construction?

[tracyandwarren]

Hi Folks,

I'd really love any feedback you have about the three proposed systems below. We're building a new 2-story 3,000 sqft. house near Philadelphia, PA. We're mostly concerned with comfort, having good control, and efficiently maintaining temps upstairs and downstairs (and in a smaller office downstairs).

Here are the 3 options presented:

-------------
Option 1:
* Rough Ductwork from 1st and 2nd floors to basement
* 2-Metal Uninsulated supply and 1-return ducting 2-zone system
* Gas furnace: Payne: 92% Multi poise furnace: PG9MAB048080 with CNPVP048021ATA Coil
* Air conditioner: Payne 13 Seer A/C R410A: PA13NA048000
* 2-Stage Heat / 1-Stage Cool Zone panel with 2-Zone Dampers


Option 2:
* Rough Ductwork from 1st and 2nd floors to basement
* 2-Metal Uninsulated supply and 1-return ducting 2-zone system
* Additional Zone Ducting for 3rd zone
* Bryant #353AAV048080 2 Stage Heat with High Efficiency 2 Speed Variable Speed X-13 Blower Motor 80,000 BTUH Input 93% Efficiency with CNPVP048021 Coil
* Bryant #126ANA048 2 Speed Condensing Unit 4 Ton 16 SEER Legacy Series
* 2 Stage Heat / 2-Stage Cool Zone panel with 3 Zone Dampers
* This Equipment Combination Achieves 16-SEER Efficiency
(Upgrade cost is almost twice option 1)


Option 3:
* Rough Ductwork from 1st and 2nd floors to basement
* 2-Metal Uninsulated supply and 1-return ducting 2-zone system
* Additional Zone Ducting for 3rd zone
* #355CAV060080 Bryant 3-Stage Heat Variable Speed Blower Gas Furnace 95% Efficienct 80,000 BTUH Input with CNPVP4821ATA Coil
* #167ANA048 Bryant Evolution Capable 4-ton 2 Speed Condensing Unit Preferred Series
* Evolution Control User Interface
* Evolution Control Zone Sensor
* Evolution Zone Controller with 3 Zone Dampers
* This Equipment Combination Achieves 16-SEER Efficiency
(Upgrade cost is almost 3 times option 1.)

Would we be better off with 2 systems instead of 1 zoned system? Is there any way to split the difference between option 2 and 3 and get the evolution control without having such a big jump in cost? What is is that makes option 3 significantly better? Is it just the evolution communication/control?

Thanks so much for any feedback on these systems!

-- Warren
P.S. (Tigerdunes thanks so much for your help elsewhere!)

[fixed right]

Zoned system's in that size of a home can be a nightmare if not set up properly. And the service repair issues that WILL come down the road, won't be fun either.
Any 2-story home of that size we always recomend 2 systems. It will provide better comfort and control, with less headaches down the road.
I'm not saying a properly zoned system can't provide you comfort, cause it can. But most i've seen the homeowners are not happy with them.

I beleive the additional cost for you might be like a thousand dollars more or so with 2 systems vs. 1-zoned.

Plus, your operating costs should NOT be any more with 2-systems; more than likely it will be less.

Just my experience.

[tracyandwarren]

Thanks Fixed Right! I'll definitely ask him for an option with two systems. Should we go with simpler systems then? Each one would be single stage/single speed?

Do we still aim for 90%+ on the furnaces and 16 SEER on the AC's?

Thanks again,

Warren

[dash]

I go with the Evolution zoning,instead of two systems.

Two stage heating and cooling,best zzoning system out there.

Get the Bryant factory 10 year parts and labor,for peace of mind.

Duct system must be sized correctly,as with all systems,but even more important for zoning.

[fixed right]

Thanks Fixed Right! I'll definitely ask him for an option with two systems. Should we go with simpler systems then? Each one would be single stage/single speed?

Do we still aim for 90%+ on the furnaces and 16 SEER on the AC's?

Thanks again,

Warren

Again, this is MY experiences. I'd imagine (IF) the zoned system's were properly set up, you'd be comfortable. But i'm still sticking to my guns on the service expenses you'll receive down the road.
The thing about 2 systems is this; half of the time ( depending on your climate) one system will run quite a bit more than the other. But if you flip flop the seasons, it's vica versa. So going off that alone, it's much cheaper to start and run a smaller system that it is on a larger one. A large a/c or HP has a 40-50 amp overcurrent device, while a smaller one can be between 15 and 30 amp. Most small ones are around 20 nowadays, up to 2.5 ton & even 3T depending on model.

I don't know if i'd go too drastic on lessening the efficiency on either or. But what you could do is go........High efficient 95+ 2-stage furnace downstairs w/ a 13-14 SEER, and a 80% 2-stage VS upstairs with a higher seer rated unit and 2-stage. This is just an idea, and probably what i would do but that's up to you. Maybe someone else can chime in here as well.

What i really don't like about zoned systems is this: What happens when you have a huge furnace and you only need heat downstairs? Or vica versa for cooling? Unless you have modulating equipment, i don't see how that can be efficient. A/C's are not modulating ( yet ), they are only 2-stage which is what....50-70% of total capacity on low stage?

I could go on and on with this, but i don't know your house that well nor your climate. So hopefully what i've mentioned helps.

[paul42]

Put the furnace & duct work in conditioned space.

Shade the windows in the summer.

make the house air tight & add a fresh air intake.

The money spent doing all of this can be recouped by smaller furnace / air conditioner, and MUCH smaller energy costs.

[tracyandwarren]

Hi Everyone,

Following your advice I went back and asked for options with two systems instead of just 1 with

zoning. I now have 3 more options, and I'm even more confused. Any advice on these three options

would be greatly appreciated!

Each of these is priced in terms of how much the "upgrade" price is from whatever comes standard

with our house.

Here they are:

Option 4:

Rough ductwork from 1st and 2nd. floors to Basement
2-Metal Uninsulated Supply and 2-Metal Uninsulated Return Trunks
Payne 93% Efficient Gas Furnace with 2-Stage Heat and High Efficiency 2-Speed X-13
Blower Motor 60,000 BTuh Input with CNPVP030017 Coil
Air Conditioner: Payne 14 Seer A/C R410A PA4ANG024000
This Equipment Combination Achieves 16-SEER Efficiency
Upgrade cost is about 2.5 times option 1



Option 5:
Rough ductwork from 1st and 2nd. floors to Basement
1-Metal Uninsulated Supply and 1-Metal Uninsulated Return Trunk per System
Gas Furnace: Payne 92% Multi Poise Furnace: PG9MAB024040 with CNPVP2417ATA
Air Conditioner: Payne 13 SEER A/C R410A PA13NA024000
Upgrade cost is almost 3 times option 1


Option 6:
Rough ductwork from 1st and 2nd. floors to Basement
1-Metal Uninsulated Supply and 1-Metal Uninsulated Return Trunk per System
Payne 93% Efficient Gas Furnace with 2-Stage Heat and High Efficiency 2-Speed X-13
Blower Motor 60,000 BTuh Input with CNPVP030017 Coil
Bryant #126ANA024 2-Speed Condensing Unit 2 Ton 16 Seer Legacy Series
Upgrade cost is more than 3 times option 1


I don't understand what makes option 5 more expensive than option 4, or how to choose between these.

Any recommendations?

Thanks!

-- Warren

[btuhack]

Zoned system's in that size of a home can be a nightmare if not set up properly. And the service repair issues that WILL come down the road, won't be fun either.
Any 2-story home of that size we always recomend 2 systems. It will provide better comfort and control, with less headaches down the road.
I'm not saying a properly zoned system can't provide you comfort, cause it can. But most i've seen the homeowners are not happy with them.

I believe the additional cost for you might be like a thousand dollars more or so with 2 systems vs. 1-zoned.

Plus, your operating costs should NOT be any more with 2-systems; more than likely it will be less.

Just my experience.

The quoted is great advice!
Zoning systems are best applied to pre-existing systems that need to be reconfigured but can't be. Zoning is a collection of compromises that usually fall short of the occupants expectations. The Bryant/Carrier zoning is one of the best if you go that route in my opinion. Will it be obsolete or difficult to repair in 10 years? Let me know.

The 4-5 comparison does not compute, Typo on their part? Hi-Eff is a an ROI issue for you to decide, 2 stage equipment systems offer less noise during low stage, and variable fans best benefit those with constant fan use (filtration). If this stuff offers no benefit, you are only buying costly features and complicating future repairs.

If you want to postpone the zoning for now, pre wire and configure ducts for that and install the associated equipment(Evolution?).

[Wheelbaron]

Have you considered a high efficiency boiler with radiant ? Then add a single air handler with zone for cooling combined with a heat recovery ventilator (don't let them talk about using it for bath exhaust). If installed correctly, you will not find a more comfortable, quiet, and clean system.

[REP]

Have you considered a high efficiency boiler with radiant ? Then add a single air handler with zone for cooling combined with a heat recovery ventilator (don't let them talk about using it for bath exhaust). If installed correctly, you will not find a more comfortable, quiet, and clean system.
Now thats my kinda house right there Wheelbaron.
I would only add a VS airhandler which kicks up the comfort level another notch and provides for very cheap constant fan for those home owners that need air cleaning for medical reasons or those that worry about what is in the air of their homes.
For those that have never experirnced radiant heat,I can only say that its the most comfortable heating you will ever experience.
Before I was in the business my first experience was while visiting a friend in his new house.Within 10 minutes i had to ask him how he was heating his home because it was noticably more comfort than I was used to.Of course he had radiant.