Hanging ducts with bent nails?

[wiz_023]

Quick question. Is hanging flexible duct straps with nails bent over like the pics below typical or even to code? We had a new install of a HVAC and I called for and inspection last Friday - 3 pages of corrections with over 20 violations. This one wasn't listed but he couldn't get to the ducting because the furnace was in the way and didn't want to climb over it. I did today and saw this. It doesn't look right to me.

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/strap1.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/strap2.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/strap3.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/strap4.jpg

[uniservice]

Not the best way to use duct hanging straps, but went on a job and found flex supported by shoe strings. Yes, shoe strings. I couldn't tell you what code is, as far as fasteners, but it sure looks tacky. If they already have been summoned back to take care of the inspector's issues, I'd ask about the bent nails. My jobs are all installed by a sheet metal subcontracter that has been tin bending almost as many years as I've been doing service work. I trust him completely, and never worry about installs not passing inspection.

[bmathews]

While it may not be the most professional looking job. What else are they supposed to use? You have a choice of nails or screws to fasten it to wood. I don't think they have a code to determine minimum penetration for nails into wood. Do you have 3 pages of code misconduct for the hvac alone? Or is it for a variety of other trades as well? 3 pages for just hvac is extreme, for an entire house under construction or remodel. It may not be far off.

[Stamas]

What were the some of the other "violations"?
Had one job where they hung flex and piping with the blue peel of adhesive strip of split tube pipe insulation.

[bwalley]

While it may not be the most professional looking job. What else are they supposed to use? You have a choice of nails or screws to fasten it to wood. I don't think they have a code to determine minimum penetration for nails into wood. Do you have 3 pages of code misconduct for the hvac alone? Or is it for a variety of other trades as well? 3 pages for just hvac is extreme, for an entire house under construction or remodel. It may not be far off.

3 pages for an entire job is way too many.

As far as minimum penetration into wood, I will look it up, but I would not accept sloppy work like that even if it met code.

[kontrolsfreek]

I can only imagine what the rest of the install looks like. You get what you pay for is all I can say.

[lentz]

You can leave the nails, ask the contractor to go back and put screws in each hanger. The hanging material looks fine. We have to use 1 1/2 hanging material.

[deejoe]

While it may not be the most professional looking job. What else are they supposed to use? .
************************************************** ****
"what else are they supposed to use" ??? Duh!!!! Do ya think a shorter nail or screw that can be driven tightly to the wood would look better??
That way it would have more holding power while looking somewhat a bit professional instead of a slipshod effort by some dummy that one day picked up a pair of snips and now thinks he is a tin knocker.

[wiz_023]

Most of the others were from the electrical and plumbing. The wall heaters and AC were taken out and a split system put in. Hired the #1 contractor in the county. They have a pie chart that show they did over twice the amount of permits than anyone else last year. This is actually grandma's house. She got two quotes. The first one said a permit wasn't needed and I told her it was so when she asked them about it they said she would need to go down and get it. When she did she got scared by a form they gave them saying what the responsibility of an owner-builder and got scared so went with the big name guy on TV. Right after it was done, she paid him even before the inspection.

The inspector said the permit was for a changeout and not a new install. When I brought the results to the contractor he was pissed. Said in 30 some years the most they've ever gotten is 3.

Another question for the CA people. They had marked on the CF-6R that the TXV failed. When I asked the contractor about that he said that was because it didn't have on and he guesses the inspector wants a Refrigerant charge measurement. From what I can in climate zone 12 a TXV must be installed an verified by a HERS rater. Is this right? There are other flow tests that don't make sense. For example it has a line that says pass if leakage at final <6%. They had a 23 and pass? The rater form was signed and dated on a day no one was home?

Just some others:
Gas pipe inspection
Provide gas piping calculations for t-off of ½” gas line @ water heater
14 AWG NMB on 20A breakers (attic light and recepticle/heater, and outdoor GFCI)
30A breakers and fuse disconnects to AC - nameplate says 20A max
light, receptacle, and furnace on same circuit (20A 14AWG)
Cable conduit overfilled
No anchors in stucco.
zip ties supporting liquid and suction line
NMB supported by tape to AC lines
Breaches in firewall not sealed
move collar ties up from Obstructed passageway
14 cu in Light box overfilled
NM in light box is not clamped
wire to light is going wrong direction around terminal
flex conduit to light box not connected
switch in attic has black supply and white return.Light has two whites, none marked
light switch ground going wrong way around screw
light switch box is not grounded
Relocate receptacle in attic - blocked by exhaust vent
Protect existing romex in attic at catwalk
flex conduit from J-Box to furn not secured within 12"
No ground connected to extension ring, switch, or receptical at furnace.
Wires going into furnace need grommet
1/8" per foot slope of condensate waste pipe needed (mostly flat or upward)
PVC waste pipe not supported every 4'
Gas pipe not supported 6'
Some ducts not supported every 4'
whole house fan need to be interlock with attic furnace
Correct or explain page 5 of 12 CF-6R form @ thermostatic expansion (TXV) (Fail)

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/catwalk.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/above_garage1.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/ligh_twiring.jpg

[wahoo]

Have them replace the "bent nails" with screws while they are taking care of all the other stuff. Looks very un-professional and can't believe their installers didn't have something else available to anchor the straps with. Keep after them until they take care of all this. The lack of "grommet" on furnace cabinet also speaks of their lack of professional expertice. Sounds like these guys were paid to "do it fast" not well!! Throw it in and run...

[wiz_023]

Have them replace the "bent nails" with screws while they are taking care of all the other stuff. Looks very un-professional and can't believe their installers didn't have something else available to anchor the straps with. Keep after them until they take care of all this. The lack of "grommet" on furnace cabinet also speaks of their lack of professional expertice. Sounds like these guys were paid to "do it fast" not well!! Throw it in and run...

The funny thing is that the 6 straps from in front of the furnance to the garage access hole used screws and behind where you can't get to without unscrewing one of those ducts or climbing over the furnance has everyone one nailed like this. I can understand one or two bent nails, but everyone?? That is why I'm trying to figure out if it was done on purpose. I think they didn't expect someone to go back there.

Is supporting by nails and screws ok from the bottom of the rafters ok or do they need to go into the sides?

[wahoo]

Anchoring with screws in the side or bottom of joists will be fine. You don't have a lot of weight to deal with. Also make sure none of the flex is supported over 5feet apart. Be nice not to have to much "sag" also, as it will affect air flow if sagged.

[wiz_023]

So I think we're screwed. Got a hold of the contract from grandma. It could be a HVAC changeout by the way they wrote it and doesn't say much about all the electrical they "did". Nothing specific about the light and receptacles so they can claim the didn't do it. Even the gas line mentioned could mean the flex line required to be changed out when replacing a unit. So the electrical and plumbing permits and repair could be on us. I'm really trying not to stress grandma out. She already paid them so I doubt they will be responsive. Tomorrow morning I am going to try to get a copy of the permit application they did. Somehow I think all the time I take to sort this mess out will be more than doing the work myself and it would be to code. I may still end up doing all the work to fix it myself at this rate.


Bid will include:
Furnace in the attic, A/C unit, evaporator coil, digital setback thermostat, pad, flashing, condensate drain & pan, refrigerant line, gas line, flue pipe, high & low voltage, fuse box, filter set up, all duct runs, duct transitions, Title 24 Duct test & seal, state HERS verification, all supply registers, all sheet metal, freon recover old unit, location cleanup, existing equipment removal, 24-hour emergency service, all permits, tax & labor.

Equipment: Lennox furnace model #G40UH-24-45
A/C model #13ADC-024

[lentz]

Most of the others were from the electrical and plumbing. The wall heaters and AC were taken out and a split system put in. Hired the #1 contractor in the county. They have a pie chart that show they did over twice the amount of permits than anyone else last year. This is actually grandma's house. She got two quotes. The first one said a permit wasn't needed and I told her it was so when she asked them about it they said she would need to go down and get it. When she did she got scared by a form they gave them saying what the responsibility of an owner-builder and got scared so went with the big name guy on TV. Right after it was done, she paid him even before the inspection.

The inspector said the permit was for a changeout and not a new install. When I brought the results to the contractor he was pissed. Said in 30 some years the most they've ever gotten is 3.

Another question for the CA people. They had marked on the CF-6R that the TXV failed. When I asked the contractor about that he said that was because it didn't have on and he guesses the inspector wants a Refrigerant charge measurement. From what I can in climate zone 12 a TXV must be installed an verified by a HERS rater. Is this right? There are other flow tests that don't make sense. For example it has a line that says pass if leakage at final <6%. They had a 23 and pass? The rater form was signed and dated on a day no one was home?

Just some others:
Gas pipe inspection
Provide gas piping calculations for t-off of ½” gas line @ water heater
14 AWG NMB on 20A breakers (attic light and recepticle/heater, and outdoor GFCI)
30A breakers and fuse disconnects to AC - nameplate says 20A max
light, receptacle, and furnace on same circuit (20A 14AWG)
Cable conduit overfilled
No anchors in stucco.
zip ties supporting liquid and suction line
NMB supported by tape to AC lines
Breaches in firewall not sealed
move collar ties up from Obstructed passageway
14 cu in Light box overfilled
NM in light box is not clamped
wire to light is going wrong direction around terminal
flex conduit to light box not connected
switch in attic has black supply and white return.Light has two whites, none marked
light switch ground going wrong way around screw
light switch box is not grounded
Relocate receptacle in attic - blocked by exhaust vent
Protect existing romex in attic at catwalk
flex conduit from J-Box to furn not secured within 12"
No ground connected to extension ring, switch, or receptical at furnace.
Wires going into furnace need grommet
1/8" per foot slope of condensate waste pipe needed (mostly flat or upward)
PVC waste pipe not supported every 4'
Gas pipe not supported 6'
Some ducts not supported every 4'
whole house fan need to be interlock with attic furnace
Correct or explain page 5 of 12 CF-6R form @ thermostatic expansion (TXV) (Fail)

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/catwalk.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/above_garage1.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/ligh_twiring.jpg

Looks like it would be a good idea to add some insulation in the attic.

[stvc]

Those electrical violations all are something that a first year apprentice would know not to do.

Ask for the license # of the installer. It is against the law for someone to do electrical installations without a master, journeyman or apprentice license. Who ever did that clearly had none. If they do it should be pulled.

Having to answer to a judge might get their attention.

[Some Dude]

I have never seen some of those violations before, must be a city/state thing.
I can see an inspector finding all of them but never on one job.
May be a new inspector, we do great work, but some of the things i have seen others do and pass make that look like a trade show install, not that its up to my standards, it isnt a total train wreck either.
My guess is new inspector or he hates the installer.
Btw we never use nails to hang anything.

[stvc]

The electrical ones are national, the others I don't know about.

[mikethe ductman]

Most of the others were from the electrical and plumbing. The wall heaters and AC were taken out and a split system put in. Hired the #1 contractor in the county. They have a pie chart that show they did over twice the amount of permits than anyone else last year. This is actually grandma's house. She got two quotes. The first one said a permit wasn't needed and I told her it was so when she asked them about it they said she would need to go down and get it. When she did she got scared by a form they gave them saying what the responsibility of an owner-builder and got scared so went with the big name guy on TV. Right after it was done, she paid him even before the inspection.

The inspector said the permit was for a changeout and not a new install. When I brought the results to the contractor he was pissed. Said in 30 some years the most they've ever gotten is 3.

Another question for the CA people. They had marked on the CF-6R that the TXV failed. When I asked the contractor about that he said that was because it didn't have on and he guesses the inspector wants a Refrigerant charge measurement. From what I can in climate zone 12 a TXV must be installed an verified by a HERS rater. Is this right? There are other flow tests that don't make sense. For example it has a line that says pass if leakage at final <6%. They had a 23 and pass? The rater form was signed and dated on a day no one was home?

Just some others:
Gas pipe inspection
Provide gas piping calculations for t-off of ½” gas line @ water heater
14 AWG NMB on 20A breakers (attic light and recepticle/heater, and outdoor GFCI)
30A breakers and fuse disconnects to AC - nameplate says 20A max
light, receptacle, and furnace on same circuit (20A 14AWG)
Cable conduit overfilled
No anchors in stucco.
zip ties supporting liquid and suction line
NMB supported by tape to AC lines
Breaches in firewall not sealed
move collar ties up from Obstructed passageway
14 cu in Light box overfilled
NM in light box is not clamped
wire to light is going wrong direction around terminal
flex conduit to light box not connected
switch in attic has black supply and white return.Light has two whites, none marked
light switch ground going wrong way around screw
light switch box is not grounded
Relocate receptacle in attic - blocked by exhaust vent
Protect existing romex in attic at catwalk
flex conduit from J-Box to furn not secured within 12"
No ground connected to extension ring, switch, or receptical at furnace.
Wires going into furnace need grommet
1/8" per foot slope of condensate waste pipe needed (mostly flat or upward)
PVC waste pipe not supported every 4'
Gas pipe not supported 6'
Some ducts not supported every 4'
whole house fan need to be interlock with attic furnace
Correct or explain page 5 of 12 CF-6R form @ thermostatic expansion (TXV) (Fail)

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/catwalk.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/above_garage1.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv293/wizard_drd/ligh_twiring.jpg

Sounds like a home inspector to me.

The nails look crappy but nothing wrong with it, I have seen it hung with nails,screws,staples and jib tacks.

"zip ties supporting liquid and suction line"


I see line sets hung with pipe hooks all the time, pretty much the same thing.

[Some Dude]

Sounds like a home inspector to me.

The nails look crappy but nothing wrong with it, I have seen it hung with nails,screws,staples and jib tacks.

"zip ties supporting liquid and suction line"


I see line sets hung with pipe hooks all the time, pretty much the same thing.

He did seem to crawl all over it with a micro scope, i dont support my drain line that well all the time lol.
Wiz what state and city are you in? Guessing California?

[wiz_023]

He did seem to crawl all over it with a micro scope, i dont support my drain line that well all the time lol.
Wiz what state and city are you in? Guessing California?

Yep, California. I don't mind certain things, but there are some real safety issues as well as I don't want us to get hit if inspected when sold years down the line. Not supporting the the drain line too well is one thing but upward sloping? I might have had something to blame for the long list of violations. I asked the inspector a lot of questions. I grew up being a CAD monkey for my grandfather's architect firm, have a BS in Electrical Engineering, a PhD in chemical engineering, a MBA, and am taking my PE in mechanical engineering in September. It's in my nature to understand what was done and might be a little anal.

[Some Dude]

Yep, California. I don't mind certain things, but there are some real safety issues as well as I don't want us to get hit if inspected when sold years down the line. Not supporting the the drain line too well is one thing but upward sloping? I might have had something to blame for the long list of violations. I asked the inspector a lot of questions. I grew up being a CAD monkey for my grandfather's architect firm, have a BS in Electrical Engineering, a PhD in chemical engineering, a MBA, and am taking my PE in mechanical engineering in September. It's in my nature to understand what was done and might be a little anal.

I absolutely understand, some of those things should be changed, but i also wanted you to know the company who put it in arent complete jack azzes either.
My wifes from cali and they have some ridiculous codes etc, these poor guys working there have to reclaim the coil cleaner even the detergent type.

Work it out with the install company, im sure you will be alright.
One thing, if they havent put a wet switch in the secondary drain pan, get one. It will keep your ceiling from falling in for sure.
Inspectors have bad days and can be more of a problem than an asset, especially if they dont know the 'why ' of the code.
For instance,,,,screw in plaster without anchors,,,did they hit a stud?
Im sure you will be fine, just ask them, im sure they want it resolved as much as you do,,,,believe it.

[wiz_023]

I absolutely understand, some of those things should be changed, but i also wanted you to know the company who put it in arent complete jack azzes either.
My wifes from cali and they have some ridiculous codes etc, these poor guys working there have to reclaim the coil cleaner even the detergent type.

Work it out with the install company, im sure you will be alright.
One thing, if they havent put a wet switch in the secondary drain pan, get one. It will keep your ceiling from falling in for sure.
Inspectors have bad days and can be more of a problem than an asset, especially if they dont know the 'why ' of the code.
For instance,,,,screw in plaster without anchors,,,did they hit a stud?
Im sure you will be fine, just ask them, im sure they want it resolved as much as you do,,,,believe it.

They ran all flex conduit from the breaker box to the GFCI, disconnect, condensor, and into the house. Everything is held into the stucco with sheet metal screws. When I was outside the puppy walked into the GFCI box and it pulled out of the wall. That is a little bit too much IMO. After that I decided to look at some of their work and brought up my concerns to the family. They said not to upset grandma but bring up them up to the inspector. I agreed that if he says it's fine then I'll forget about it.

[Some Dude]

They ran all flex conduit from the breaker box to the GFCI, disconnect, condensor, and into the house. Everything is held into the stucco with sheet metal screws. When I was outside the puppy walked into the GFCI box and it pulled out of the wall. That is a little bit too much IMO. After that I decided to look at some of their work and brought up my concerns to the family. They said not to upset grandma but bring up them up to the inspector. I agreed that if he says it's fine then I'll forget about it.

Thats not good at all, you need to have a chat with them.
Flexible conduit is still code though , and boxes should not come lose.

[wiz_023]

Thats not good at all, you need to have a chat with them.
Flexible conduit is still code though , and boxes should not come lose.

Sorta to code. CEC 356.12(3) says no more than 6'. I'll overlook that one since that will be too nitpicky and not a major safety thing. But it's held in without anchors and you can just pull them out with minor force. They must have used a screw gun with the torque setting too high.

The inspector just called me to make sure I gave the contractor the correction notices because he hasn't been contacted from them yet. I asked about the funky nails and he said he has no problem if I want to I tell them to screw them in. I'm ok if they leave the nails in but add screws. It just seems so hack to me. I told him I hate to be red tagging myself, but I'm worried about the electrical and gas line not permitted right and he said would take care of that part with them after that fact so that releaved some stress. I was afraid if I asked the contractor about it before they came back, they wouldn't finish the job right since they got paid.

[Some Dude]

Sorta to code. CEC 356.12(3) says no more than 6'. I'll overlook that one since that will be too nitpicky and not a major safety thing. But it's held in without anchors and you can just pull them out with minor force. They must have used a screw gun with the torque setting too high.

The inspector just called me to make sure I gave the contractor the correction notices because he hasn't been contacted from them yet. I asked about the funky nails and he said he has no problem if I want to I tell them to screw them in. I'm ok if they leave the nails in but add screws. It just seems so hack to me. I told him I hate to be red tagging myself, but I'm worried about the electrical and gas line not permitted right and he said would take care of that part with them after that fact so that releaved some stress. I was afraid if I asked the contractor about it before they came back, they wouldn't finish the job right since they got paid.

No decent contractor would ever walk away from a job without trying to make things right.
The way things are in your state im sure he will take care of things, if not it wont be pretty.
This guy got a sh1t sandwich from the inspector, help him do it right by giving him a second chance, trust me, he aint happy either.
But Get your job done right too.

[wiz_023]

No decent contractor would ever walk away from a job without trying to make things right.
The way things are in your state im sure he will take care of things, if not it wont be pretty.
This guy got a sh1t sandwich from the inspector, help him do it right by giving him a second chance, trust me, he aint happy either.
But Get your job done right too.

We'll see about that. He said "for a guy that doesn't even have a contract I am asking too much" and hung up. Guess he means that the contract is with grandma and not me.

[Some Dude]

We'll see about that. He said "for a guy that doesn't even have a contract I am asking too much" and hung up. Guess he means that the contract is with grandma and not me.

Okey dookie then, this is the fun part, i think you know what to do.
that type of bs is what makes my whole profession look bad, i would make sure i stay in very close touch with the building department if i were you.

[bigtime]

Sumptin smells fishy here to me. :couchhide:

Bunch of bs stuff on the list.

[wiz_023]

Okey dookie then, this is the fun part, i think you know what to do.
that type of bs is what makes my whole profession look bad, i would make sure i stay in very close touch with the building department if i were you.

Will try.

[wiz_023]

Sumptin smells fishy here to me. :couchhide:

Bunch of bs stuff on the list.

Huh, you don't agree that those are code violations and it's totally safe to un-ground circuits, undersize wire, have outlets fall off the wall?

[DavyB]

Yep, California. I don't mind certain things, but there are some real safety issues as well as I don't want us to get hit if inspected when sold years down the line. Not supporting the the drain line too well is one thing but upward sloping? I might have had something to blame for the long list of violations. I asked the inspector a lot of questions. I grew up being a CAD monkey for my grandfather's architect firm, have a BS in Electrical Engineering, a PhD in chemical engineering, a MBA, and am taking my PE in mechanical engineering in September. It's in my nature to understand what was done and might be a little anal.

Are you sure that you aren't the one who wrote up all the violations?

[bigtime]

Huh, you don't agree that those are code violations and it's totally safe to un-ground circuits, undersize wire, have outlets fall off the wall?

My bs meter is spinning for some reason Mr Wiz.

[wiz_023]

Are you sure that you aren't the one who wrote up all the violations?

How can I write up violations? Do I work for the building department? No. Do I ask questions? Yes. The inspector came in and asked where the pressure test for the new gas line was. I said there isn't one. First thing he wrote up. He asked me to show him the gas line. Then he wrote up the sizing issue. Then he asked who did the work and I told him. I said I was not happy particularly with the electrical.

I know about sizing of wires and grounding. Then he asked me to show him and then he got pissed and tore into it. After the inspection results I went through the NEC to find out what was wrong to make sure it's fixed right. I came here to find out about the nails since that looked so bad. I don't know anything about codes but I can point out that the box if falling off the wall. This isn't grounded. Then when he opens it to check he sees it and notices wrong marking of wires, etc. I can ask how the water drains when the pipe slopes upward, right? I know how the permit process works from working in the architect office. If I figured I was capable to doing it right then why didn't I do it myself? I'm going to let it go and let the inspector handle it. If not then I'll go to the board. Think I'm some sort of sting operation? That I would purposely tell the inspector that we had electrical and plumbing work done that was not permitted or licensed with a contract that basically the contractor can deny to risk a fine to Grandma?

[wiz_023]

My bs meter is spinning for some reason Mr Wiz.

Umm. Ok. I got my question answered on the hanging of the ducts. Thanks to everyone that helped.

Maybe one more stupid question.. . .edit (I just read that there is no DYI and it was thermostat and warranty question. Apologies.)