Gemini Gas Valves... P.O.S.!

[PaysonHVAC]

http://www.paysonarizona.net/chasroberts/0217172351_1.jpg

Goodman is going to really, really, really suffer from this one. These piece of s**t valves have already stuck OPEN in the first year of operation!

The one posted here was a no heat. Less than 1 year old. As I wiggled the PLASTIC housing it would intermittantly work.

I can't believe White-Rodgers got so damn cheap!
Probably a deal with Goodman? They are small, plastic, single diagram junk!!!

Anybody got these in other brands?

[BaldLoonie]

Sad thing is they are showing up elsewhere too. Like TRANE! So far my opinion of A-S/Trane has gone from "the best" to almost an "avoid" brand due to all their cheap components. The un-Intell-ignition boards have been more of a pain than Dumb Valves, the variable speed 90 inducers, the Mexican recips...

Goodman was improving their image with the new products and Copeland compressors. Hope, for Q's sake :D, hope this isn't a nightmare for them.

[PaysonHVAC]

Don't forget Carrier. They are making those new furnaces with the one-piece front door now. What a piece of junk.
They should have left it alone if they can't make it BETTER.

Goodman at least made a better front panel than the ones they been using for the last several years that fell apart GUARENTEED!

They better get rid of these gas valves, and soon!

[Swampfox]

What is this??? brand bashing?? :D

I cant comment on the gas stuff, probably seen 10 gas furnaces in 10 years, but I sure could rip apart a few manufacturers on their heat pumps

[PaysonHVAC]

Well, bashing a GOODMAN/Janitrol (Junkitrol/Junk-It-All) comes standard with the HVAC bus.

White Rodgers has been making components for YEARS and should KNOW better.

I think most gas valves have more than one diagram or some sort of redundant safetly feature. I can't remember seeing a gas valve stick open. Especially in the first year of production. But these Gemini (really cheap) models that WR just started making suck s**t! They are no more than 2 years old now and several have been caught stuck open. One almost burnt a house down. The entire furnace was almost incinerated. (in the attic!!!)
Yes. Here in Phoenix 99% of the newer split systems are in the attic!

Hopefully WR does a recal on these. Just wait until you see these pieces of junk for your selves. I think the locals are busy right now getting with them about the failures. I replaced that one last week. I was bummed to get another of the same type to put in there.

Oh yeah. I was helping the Waranty department on that call. (Less than 1 yr old installs). Two jobs in a row had bad Gemini gas valves!

[MikeJ]

Well let's see:

Goodman, Trane, Carrier, and I will add Lennuts to the list

Talk about job security! Better than the HW dumb valve and Johnson Control.

Anyone finding stripped allen screws yet? We have a couple from overtigtening?

[PaysonHVAC]

Great. I think this valve is WAY crappier than the HW SmartValve. I never saw a SmartValve stick open. They used to just get intermittant with the molex plug coming lose from the board inside. Not too mention the very small 24V HSI they used.

This Gemini has to be the worst and most unsafe so far.
Our guys are busy fixxing them in warranty. They're not even over a year yet for the COD depo to work on them yet.

[speckledflounder]

OH YEAH??!!

Well, Trane, Am. Std., Carrier, Bryant, Lennox, Ruud, Rheem, York, Armstrong, Concord, Goodman, Weather King, Water Furnace, Aaon, Tempstar, Janitrol, GE, Maytag, Amana, Heil, Whirlpool, Frigidaire, and Ford ALL suck.

[tangogreen]

Glad to see this post now. I've seen these valves, but haven't had a problem w/ them yet. I just hate the stupid way you test the pressure. I'll take the old style any day. We have a class tomorrow with our Trane FSR about their new furnace line. I'll be sure and ask him about the sticking open problem y'all have experienced.

[midhvac]

Haven't seen any of those new White Rodgers valves stick open. Has anyone else seen this?

[MikeJ]

Originally posted by tangogreen
Glad to see this post now. I've seen these valves, but haven't had a problem w/ them yet. I just hate the stupid way you test the pressure. I'll take the old style any day. We have a class tomorrow with our Trane FSR about their new furnace line. I'll be sure and ask him about the sticking open problem y'all have experienced.

Why bother, they will only say that they are not aware of any problems with this valve. You might bring in a copy of this thread. I have only replaced one on a Lennox, didn't think much of it. It's easier to test pressure but a ***** to keep track of the little allen wrench and the tubing.

[PaysonHVAC]

Well I found more information which may explain the HIGH failure around here and why the more QUALITY installs would have LESS failure. Or in other words why other areas don't have the problem.

OK. I guess the valve doesn't exactly fail all by itself nessesarily, (except for the two that had intermittant ELECTRICAL connections inside I replaced last week but that doesn't make them stick open). Now I hear the blame is that there is no DRIP LEGS installed before the furnaces here and this NEW simple VALVE is more suseptable (spelled?) to any small debri that comes thru the gas line. I guess the reduntant safety in this valve isn't sh*t compared to others and oil or dibri making it's way into it could make this little valve stay open.

So while in other areas with better installs may not have as high of a failure, the Phoenix area (cookie-cutter / Wam-Bam Thankyou mam housing tracks) seem to cause more problems and the cheap valve isn't helping.

[azhvac]

Originally posted by PaysonHVAC
Well I found more information which may explain the HIGH failure around here and why the more QUALITY installs would have LESS failure. Or in other words why other areas don't have the problem.

OK. I guess the valve doesn't exactly fail all by itself nessesarily, (except for the two that had intermittant ELECTRICAL connections inside I replaced last week but that doesn't make them stick open). Now I hear the blame is that there is no DRIP LEGS installed before the furnaces here and this NEW simple VALVE is more suseptable (spelled?) to any small debri that comes thru the gas line. I guess the reduntant safety in this valve isn't sh*t compared to others and oil or dibri making it's way into it could make this little valve stay open.

So while in other areas with better installs may not have as high of a failure, the Phoenix area (cookie-cutter / Wam-Bam Thankyou mam housing tracks) seem to cause more problems and the cheap valve isn't helping.

PaysonHVAC-

The plumbers out here have done nothing different on Tract homes in the past 20 years. All lines are pressure tested with air which is o.k. per local codes. All gas piping may have cutting oil when threaded. The contaminants are no different than 10-15 years ago. They stopped installing drip legs at furnaces prior to the 1980's due to the fact it is recommended by manufactures and not mandatory.

What I would like to know from you is:

1. Did you, your company, or the distributor/manufacture contact the consumer product safety commission in order to protect the public as required by Federal Law?

2. Did the manufacture or distributor send out safety notices in regards to improving and or preventing this type of problem from happening?

Gas valves that fail are one thing but gas valves that fail open is another. I understand that several manufactures are utilizing or are going to utilize this new valve.

I really do not want to step up to the soap-box but safety is everyones responsibility.

[MechAcc]

Lennox G51MP is using that style valve.

Gee has White Rodgers replaced Essex for sticking open gas valves?

[Edited by MechAcc on 05-16-2004 at 08:10 PM]

[i_got_ideas]

Don't know what y'all are doin' to these furnaces but we haven't had one of these go bad....not one. :D

[MechAcc]

go to http://www.cpsc.gov (The Consumer Product Safety Commission and report this valve. The CPSC quote " Report an Unsafe Product
If you’ve had an incident with a product that caused an injury, or even think that a product might not be safe, this is the place to report it. Help us save lives and prevent more injuries."

Then write to White Rodgers and report it as well and make a note at the bottom CC: Consumer Product Safety Comission. That will grab White Rodgers attention.



When we start reporting these defects then someone will do something about them.

[azhvac]

PaysonHVAC-

A Federal Agent from the Consumer Product Safety commission contacted us. They will be meeting us within the next few days. We will be meeting them and we will not hold back information as per Federal Law. We have not installed any of these furnaces but we do get to see the end result. Other companies have contacted us and would like to see a swift resolution.
I do not know you and you do not know me. I do know from your posts and photos where you work, here in the valley. I do not wish for you to jeopardize your lively-hood but, would you be willing to speak with them? You can remain anonymous and they will respect your wishes.

If you wish for your voice to make a difference and not just on a public message board, let me know here and I will work out a way to see it happens.

[2hot2coolme]

I've installed a Trane 2 stage with that crappy new GV.
For one, when i went to start the heat mode, GV would not open, when i tried to check pressure, could'nt find where to connect the friggin manometer...searched through the manual...nuttin! Finally found out through Trane that you need a stinkin special tube to slide over that goofy fitting...what a badddd mistake!

[jrbenny]

Originally posted by 2hot2coolme
I've installed a Trane 2 stage with that crappy new GV.
For one, when i went to start the heat mode, GV would not open, when i tried to check pressure, could'nt find where to connect the friggin manometer...searched through the manual...nuttin! Finally found out through Trane that you need a stinkin special tube to slide over that goofy fitting...what a badddd mistake! Actually, it is in the manual...beginning of the combustion input check section. Pictures and words to explain the design.

[PaysonHVAC]

Hey AZHVAC. Been a few since I checked here. I see you just registered so I'm not sure if I would know you or not. That's cool though. Glad to talk to other techs from here.

As for the new gas valves, honestly I only actually worked on a FEW just before spring while doing a day or two of calls for our warranty (new construction) depo. Other than that they are just now coming out to the COD side where I work. So like I said I replaced a few for being BAD just in the few days I did some "no heats" for warranty. All the other info I got was from some techs and a superivsor from Warranty. At first it sounded like the superivisor was trying to go to the distributor, etc about the junk valves. But last I heard that stopped. Pretty much anything you want to change around here gets shut down real quick like!

Anyway. If I start to get these damn things next winter (when many new homes will be past their 1 year warranty with these furnaces) I'll deffinitly let you know some more. Other than that it's summer time now and no one seems to care about furnaces at this time.

[azhvac]

PaysonHVAC-

Check out the thread "heat not needed today". Some people are worried about furnaces when they are running out here like last week. Your company had to go clean it up since it was only 12 months old. It was the most comfortable call you can make (ha!). I need to hook up with you. It looks like I need to get you outa there.

[Steve Wiggins]

I heard through the grapevine that Goodman doesn't install that same model valve anymore. Wonder if the other manufs will follow? I wonder if we will get a recall?

[PaysonHVAC]

Well things are going good enough for me that I can pretty much just laugh at the idiots now a days. I'm in a better area (travel and all that) but I just have to deal with the Goodman Guarantee in these next to new homes. That is, Guarenteed to BREAK! HA HA HA!

Not funny for the H/O though.

I'm getting really good at fixing these things too.
I can almost not watch my hands anymore.

[i_got_ideas]

There must be some real POS companies installing there. We have hundreds of Goodman units out, furnaces, condensers, and heat pumps. We have found them to be as reliable as any other brand, and more dependable than Carrier, Bryant, Heil, Amana(go figure), Trane, and some Lennox. Granted we have a VERY talented installer but I can't see that installation has everything to do with it. I have seen Goodman units overheated due to homeowner neglect hold up better than many other brands that have suffered the same abuse. We are also a Lennox dealer and did sell Trane for a number of years. We dropped Trane as thier price for the unit and the many parts needing to be replaced was very high. Though we are a Lennox dealer I have sold 1 in 2 1/2 years about 2 months ago and it was dead on arrival, I wasn't impressed.

I guess since you are going to get to work on a bunch of them, yes, you'll find they are the easiest units to work on there is. The methodology used in thier operation is simple and to the point. No pointless doo-dads in there.

To GOOD installation companies I am tellin' ya....give Goodman a try if you haven't. If they are installed to your high standards they are very good units with unbeatable warranties and prices that win you the bid.

Well, that's my 2cents

[MechAcc]

Don't know if you remember it or not, but about five - six years ago Coleman was having problems with the Robertshaw valves installed on their manufactured home furnace line. Seems that one of the folks on the assembly line thought that if a little bit of grease was OK then lots more grease was better. The gas valves would stick close, very fortunate, and stick open, not so fortunate.

So lets see what the CPSC findings are. Could be a similar case maybe that guy at Robertshaw got fired and he went to work for White Rodgers.

[azhvac]

Originally posted by i_got_ideas
There must be some real POS companies installing there. We have hundreds of Goodman units out, furnaces, condensers, and heat pumps. We have found them to be as reliable as any other brand, and more dependable than Carrier, Bryant, Heil, Amana(go figure), Trane, and some Lennox. Granted we have a VERY talented installer but I can't see that installation has everything to do with it. I have seen Goodman units overheated due to homeowner neglect hold up better than many other brands that have suffered the same abuse. We are also a Lennox dealer and did sell Trane for a number of years. We dropped Trane as thier price for the unit and the many parts needing to be replaced was very high. Though we are a Lennox dealer I have sold 1 in 2 1/2 years about 2 months ago and it was dead on arrival, I wasn't impressed.

I guess since you are going to get to work on a bunch of them, yes, you'll find they are the easiest units to work on there is. The methodology used in thier operation is simple and to the point. No pointless doo-dads in there.

To GOOD installation companies I am tellin' ya....give Goodman a try if you haven't. If they are installed to your high standards they are very good units with unbeatable warranties and prices that win you the bid.

Well, that's my 2cents


Notice the updated owners manual 4/04 for furnaces with pictures of the Gemini gas valve. York website P*HU residential gas furnaces.

http://www.yorkupg.com/PDFFiles/035-19657-001-B-0404.pdf

"""WARNING!!! Should overheating occur, or the gas valve fail to shut off,turn the external manual gas valve in the gas supply line to the furnace to the “off” position and let the furnace cool off before shutting off the electrical power supply. Refer to
Figure 5."""
Figure 4 gas valve- White Rodgers

Who is going to shut yours off if you are not home????
Does this really look like an installation issue to you?

[PaysonHVAC]

Well I remember when I was in the Rim Country (5000+ ft altitude) in Arizona before I came down to Phoenix that we installed lots of Goodman there too. Mostly straight cool with 90% furnaces. Only a FEW heat pumps.
We didn't seem to notice any more problems with them than all the other brands. We actually had more problems with Heil. Obviously we only installed a few units a week up there and the A/C part only ran mildly compared to here in Phoenix.

Now down here in Phoenix the HEAT PUMPS made by Goodman are considered JUNK by most.

Everyday I have bets with the other techs when one of us knows we are going to track homes with Goodmans.

So, for instance I am on my way and we'll take a quess at the top 3 problems we encounter EVERY DAY!

1) Stack Relays. They suck and on the 4 and 5 ton heat pumps a LARGE percentage of them fail all the time. I'm talking I will be one one street and fixing one and a few days later I'm on the same street fixing their neighbors. I wont even put a Stack Relay back in even under the 5 year parts warranty. It's a SIN. I always recommend a better relay and use the Honeywell Fan Manager as an upgrade.

2) Leak at the outdoor capillary tubes where they rubbed together. Lately I've been working on the NEWER Goodman heat pumps that have the cap tube assembly configured differently than pre 2002 models. On these, the cap tubes STILL rub and leak but now the 3/8" liquid line in between the piston housing and filter dryer likes to be rubbing the 3/4" suction'gas line.
I have to braze these leaks several times a week! All in the SAME spot!

3) Indoor Blower Wheel and/or motor mounts bust all to he!! on the 4 and 5 ton Goodman Heat Pumps.I have to carry the blower wheel on my van as the motor and motor mounts which don't even line back up with the existing bolt holes. I have to use NEW bolts, nuts and washers.


So that's what we try to all guess on the problem being before we even get to the house.
I was right twice yesterday. Two bad stack relays.
Today my first call AND last call were the leak in the 3/8" liquid line.

Of course they put in 9 to 1 Goodman vs. other brands here. But it IS pretty pathetic the SAME PROBLEMS plague entire housing tracks all across the valley!

[i_got_ideas]

OK, I read back through everything including what I wrote....kind of rude on my part, sorry y'all.

Like I mentioned, I have not had one of these valves go bad.
But.....

If there is clearly a problem with the valves, let alone a problem that poses a safety risk, they had better recall the damn things.....preferably before someone dies in a house fire because of one.

As far as the other common Goodman problems mentioned, the relay, the cap. tubes, etc. I have had one relay go bad, no cap. tubes. We all have to keep in mind that these parts are not built by any system manufacturer, just assembled by them rather.

So, wouldn't going directly to Gemini about the gas valve get things done faster than going through the furnace manufacturers. I am intrested in seeing how all the companies deal with this.

[MechAcc]

What's the update on your meeting with the CPSC?http://members.fortunecity.com/initzero/pages/smiles/othera/sleep3.gif

[azhvac]

Originally posted by MechAcc
What's the update on your meeting with the CPSC?http://members.fortunecity.com/initzero/pages/smiles/othera/sleep3.gif

The federal agent reviewed all material (he stated "this is alot of information"). Explained to him that we wanted to make sure we were prepared and had all facts, photos available for him. We explained to them that we and our clients (builders) would like a swift resolution. We explained that it was a manufacture part issue not an equipment manufacture issue. We wanted to direct them to the valve manufacture. Given to him were photos of meltdown furnaces, addresses, model and serial numbers. Threatening litigation letters from manufactures. Also various equipment manufactures using the valves stating in writing that they have had issues with stuck open valves. Also the manufacture of the valve stating they have issues with the stuck open valve and the corrections they plan to implement (IN WRITING). The statement I remember him stating was "Gross Liability".

Notice I did not use names here. We signed a confidentiality agreement. We filed as required per section 15 of the cpsc federal code and requirements.

I do not understand why, when so many are aware of this type of issue that they refuse to report it. We do not want to be the ones that say "I wish I had reported that. I could have saved that home (or family)."

We will not be bullied when we know we are in the right and have the documentation to back it up. Those that have been in denial are most likely seeing the light.

[Steve Wiggins]

azhvac - THANK YOU!

[PaysonHVAC]

Nice work with the gas valve.

And about the Goodmans. I think the truck ride(s) from Texas to Arizona may have some to do with the cap tubes?
But every single Phoenix area tech knows the saying "cap tube leak" when it comes to Goodman. Heck. Each tech in a Goodman track usually gets at least one cap tube leak a weak. And several bad stack relays.
Half the time the stack relay WORKS when you get to the house. So if the h/o says "sometimes the outdoor unit runs but no ID fan..." then you KNOW it's the stack relay 99.9% of the time. I used to replace with another stack realy. But in these HOT attics you get called bakc next year or two for another failed stack relay. For the last few years I been replacing with Fan Managers. Never go back to any of them homes for the same problem if I do that. Not until the BLOWER WHEEL or the motor mounts fail!
I tell you what. I just went and bought a NEW cheapo digital camera small enough to keep in my pocket or toolbag.

I will start to take a picture of every Goodman problem that is one of the top 3 I listed. I will start a NEW post labeled something about Goodman's. And I will keep posting new pics under the SAME post so I don't clog the forum.

It cooled off this week to where it really slowed down. Supposed to be over 100 again by next week. BE prepaired to witness Goodman in it's full GLORY (not)!

[MechAcc]

Any follow on with your Gemini gas valve case with the CPSC?

[teletek]

After reading all the comments I have one question.

Did any of the failed valves have a properly installed sediment trap? I always believed the trap was required per the National Code.

Also, a trap is required per every manufacturer that I know of.

If there were no traps, and it's stated in the literaure one must be in place and no trap exists, who's fault is it?

[Steve Wiggins]

Traps in my area don't exist and I never see this kind of failure. It's not the trap or lack thereof, it's a poor valve design.

[teletek]

Mr Wiggins has made my point. If we fail to follow manufacturer instructions for a stubborn reason like, "we never needed them before", then you assume all liability and give the manufactures an expressway to shed any blame whatsoever.

If the appliance is installed to the manufactures specifications then the liability is all theirs.

Especilly when a gas appliance is concerned. I for one do not want the guilt of killing some family because I refused to install a $2.00 dollar trap.

I hear similar comments about measuring and adjusting gas pressures. "I have never had to adjust the manifold pressure with any furnace and never had any problems" and then they go on to tell me how they've been doing this for 30 years etc. SCARY!

Everything changes and we must change and adapt as well. It's the American Way, unless your Islamic.

[PaysonHVAC]

Maybe it DOES specify the trap which is a GOOD idea. But...
Those valves are a piece of sh*t plain and simple. How can valves over the last few decades be just fine with all sorts of crappy installs and then some co. is smart enough (NOT!) to make a valve so damn cheap it has no redundant safety, or whatever they are called.
If you look at valves form the past, they have like TWO valves that must BOTH open before gas flows. Until the new Gemini valve.

What a piece of cheap crap. Cheaper crap to sell more crap to cheap companies like Goodman who care about being CHEAP and selling MORE units to CHEAP builders, etc. That's all I can say.

[MechAcc]

Originally posted by PaysonHVAC
Maybe it DOES specify the trap which is a GOOD idea. But...
Those valves are a piece of sh*t plain and simple. How can valves over the last few decades be just fine with all sorts of crappy installs and then some co. is smart enough (NOT!) to make a valve so damn cheap it has no redundant safety, or whatever they are called.
If you look at valves form the past, they have like TWO valves that must BOTH open before gas flows. Until the new Gemini valve.

What a piece of cheap crap. Cheaper crap to sell more crap to cheap companies like Goodman who care about being CHEAP and selling MORE units to CHEAP builders, etc. That's all I can say.

Did the valves that you had fail have traps? If so end of discussion the failures then are not from lack of a trap.

Anybody seen azhvac? Justed wanted to know if cpsc had contacted him about his failure report.

[Steve Wiggins]

Originally posted by teletek
Mr Wiggins has made my point.

And I see your point teletek.
That is why we are all here...to help each other bro.

Clarification: Is improper trapping the reason the valves failed - NO. Should we trap as per manufs instructions to avoid liability - YES

[bldgcode1]

Well guys after reading the entire thread to date I am going to have to do some research. Drip Legs aren't specified in all the codes I know that. But I am not sure if they are in the NFPA/ANSI Gas Code or not. Then we also have to consider if the NFPA is included by refernece.

I haven't installed a Gas Furnace in five years - everything we install here in sunny central FL is Heat Pump or very high Straight Cool with electric. So I haven't seen this personally, but am curious as are others from what I read, about if drip legs have been installed on any of the failed units. But a stick like this isn't acceptable and we as the industry have to just say no. Make the Distributor give you a decent valve if the one you buy has this bad design in it. Tell them you don't want it, and won't use it. Consumer pressure from dealers can hurt.

Those of us that haven't signed non-disclosures can make the media aware of this problem. The exact kind of thing the Consumer Protection Reporters LOVE! Does any one want to co-ordinate a blitz release? We can work together and set up pics, details of failures, and set a date for a group to do this. I'm game, even though looking at it from the outside not having installed one, if any one else is.

[RoBoTeq]

For crying out loud people! You are all acting like you have never seen a crappy component make it's way into our industry before. Pull up your nickers and quitcher*****ing.

White Rodgers developed the Gemini valve and marketed it to all brand manufacturers, some of whom put the valve to use. The valve needs to have the pressures measured differently which annoyed everyone who has to work on them. Some of the valve springs will not open the valve to the needed pressure unless they are stretched a bit. Some of the valves would not open. The combination of these issues is what has caused Goodman to stop using these valves and most likely the other brands will follow suit.

Gas valves are designed to default to closed for a very specific reason. To be stuck open would be very dangerous. To date I have not had one claim of a stuck to open gas valve turn out to be valid and I get every complaint from over an eigth of the country and am priveledged to every complaint nationwide.

This valve was an all round bad idea but there is no reason for Steve, azhvac and all the other chicken littles to get their panties in such an uproar......there is no overall safety issue.

So far I have only heard rumors and falsr claims of stuck open gas valves, howzabout some proof? I have so far not been able to prove any of the ones I have investigated to have stuck open. Believe me, I could use something like that to put a feather in my cap.

So; let's get some verifiable evidence here so I can steal your data and get a raise for proving a vendor has a dangerous product.

[Steve Wiggins]

"The Gemini gas valve has had issues and is no longer being used by Goodman. If it is bad, it will not allow for a proper, steady gas flow. Get a good gas pressure reading and recheck after a few cycles. Most of these valves are still in use but enough have had issues to not use anymore. A replacement valve will be physically longer."

[Steve Wiggins]

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=52124

O wait here is some photo graphic evidence with an experienced technician telling you there is a problem. What else do you want?

[PaysonHVAC]

WOW. I don't even remember that thread.

But I also posted some pics a while back, but not with a burnt unit.

My wife and bro in law work for a company here that installs lots of those POS Goodman units. I work for a diff co. now


Well. I KNOW from family that there were SEVERAL instances of them valves sticking OPEN last winter.

One even burned a house down that was brand new. I'm not in the loop over there but I know they were getting with Goodman on the problem.

I hope everyone drops them crappy valve. Any gas valve that has a single operating selenoid valve is a unsafe valve.

Notice the REPLACEMENT valve is longer? I bet it is due to the DUAL VALVE operation. Like every other valve used before.

[i_got_ideas]

Ok, so we ALL know that valve is used in many more brands than Goodman, yet thier name remains the one to trash.

Lets stop trashing and sharing stories.

What if anything is being done?

Heating season is upon us and planned service visits would be a great time to change these out if there is something being done. That's when we are going to change out all old stainless gax flex connectors too.

I know I can't afford to lose a customer to a house fire no matter what brand that valve is in so lets focus on the valve. Let's get some good factual information on this and get it dealt with already.

Is the valve manufacturer offering a replacement?
How much cost if any to the customer?
Is there any labor coverage?
Is there a recall we aren't aware of yet?
or Is someone really going to have to die to see action?

[bryantrep]

Don't forget Carrier. They are making those new furnaces with the one-piece front door now. What a piece of junk.
They should have left it alone if they can't make it BETTER.

Goodman at least made a better front panel than the ones they been using for the last several years that fell apart GUARENTEED!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Priorities, priorities. Would you rather have a bomb under your house with really cool panels? Weren't we talking about gas valves here?

[azhvac]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq


Believe me, I could use something like that to put a feather in my cap.

So; let's get some verifiable evidence here so I can steal your data and get a raise for proving a vendor has a dangerous product.


RoBoteq,

I would really like for you to receive your substantial raise. The information from White Rodgers, Goodman, York, HVAC Contractors, Builders and CPSC cannot be displayed publicly at this time. I assure you PaysonHVAC knows what he is talking about as well. I do not know you personally but I do know that you are an honest hard working individual. I would consider e-mailing information to you along with Steve Wiggens and MechAcc who I also do not know personally but think I can trust. No one is pointing fingers at Goodman here as Goodman is small potatoes at this time. I assure you when you bring this up to corporate they will shut you down so fast your head will spin.

[MechAcc]

Check my profile the info to contact me is in my bio. If you think you can trust me send the info.

MechAcc

[azhvac]

Originally posted by MechAcc
Check my profile the info to contact me is in my bio. If you think you can trust me send the info.

MechAcc

I will send information to your E-mail account listed in your profile.

[azhvac]

Originally posted by MechAcc
Check my profile the info to contact me is in my bio. If you think you can trust me send the info.

MechAcc

MechAcc -

You have Mail!

Sorry it took a while. You should have received info contained in 4 e-mails.

Thanks.

[PaysonHVAC]

Originally posted by bryantrep
Don't forget Carrier. They are making those new furnaces with the one-piece front door now. What a piece of junk.
They should have left it alone if they can't make it BETTER.

Goodman at least made a better front panel than the ones they been using for the last several years that fell apart GUARENTEED!

-----------------------------------------------------------

Priorities, priorities. Would you rather have a bomb under your house with really cool panels? Weren't we talking about gas valves here?


I said the same thing once.
And that is the truth! Goodman at least made their panels BETTER after fighting with those junky doors for years!
And Carrier makes this new CHEAP a$$ one piece door now!
If you don't cut your hand open from the sharp metal knock outs around the flue pipe, etc. You will touch that flue limit switch with that huge front panel while trying to line up that single screw as the nut falls out of place and then you blow the low voltage fuse!!!
AAARRGGHH!!! Whew. Got that all out!

[teletek]

Ro Bo Teq is on the mark.

All the crying and pictures about the valves have yet to confirm they were installed "PROPERLY". That is the key word right there.

How do you feel when homeowners that have been ripped off by some hack think all of us are hacks? Thought so.

Like anything else, if it's installed correctly it will operate correctly. Those of you hacks that never used traps before have been lucky.

Manufacturers cannot make these things idiot proof.

So why did Goodman stop using the valve? Good hell, think about the skill level their main cusotomer base is.
"Dang, neber had to do dat befoe".

[bldgcode1]

As I said I personally hadn't installed a unit with one of these in it. I have always installed traps (every gas install I've done over the last 28 years.) No problem yet, but I have seen two pictures with gas piping showing with traps, albeit they were not installed after the shutoff, where the valve stuck open and couldn't shut down the flame. One instance of that is too many, two is just too many. How many Ford Pinto's had to blow up before the world screamed for a fix? (the answer is five!) How many rigged explosions of 66 to 79 GMC/Chevy Pickups had to be done before they were recalled (the correct reply one!) Why because fire and explosions kill people. If the valve can stick open once it is too many times.

[installman]

amen bldgcode1 amen.

[slctech]

Funny!! Had a Trane that our company installed about 4 months ago, the same problem. Installed in crawlspace and customer kept smelling gas. Gas company came out and spot checked and found the furnace to blame. Poor ladies meter was red-tagged and it was 29 degrees outside here in Salt Lake City. I raced out there and found that this Gemini hunk of turd was to blame! It was not seating all the way when it was closed out. Took the bad valve home and hooked it up to my test station. Found the following:
1) When valve closes, it will close tightly, enough to shut off burners.
2) Let is set for about 30 seconds and the internal diaphram slowly cracks open.

Well, as a tech, Its great to have this website to see that I am not the only one running into theses things. Making copy of this thread to take over to Trane, they had a hard time believing that the valve was bad. Instead of replacing it with a new valve under warranty, they just rummaged through the scratch'n'dents and yanked one off for me.

[PaysonHVAC]

I heard that even TRANE started using that valve.
~~~SHUDDER~~~

I'm glad someone took the time to prove I wasn't crazy and that maybe, just maybe that valve was an unsafe piece of junk with or without a drip leg!!! :-)

Thanks slctech

[Spidy]

This thread is famous, Carrier instructer(are you here) mentioned this thread when referring to the Gemni Valve carrier is using, say's they fixed it now and carrier demanded a better valve....we will see....Payo your thread is being noticed..

[acur88]

Wow - as a homeowner this is scary! My new York furnace has a Gemini valve. In the 'hot heat not needed today' thread the failed valve model is listed as 36G-22Y- type 202. My furnace has a 36G-24 type 206. Is it possible there have been some modifications done since 'type 202' was used or is that only a date code? It does look similar to the valve pictured here.

Thanks to all who posted. This is a fascinating website.

[PaysonHVAC]

The thread is "famous". Wow :-)

Several weeks ago the company suprivisor asked if I had been on "tech talk". He meant this site. I guess he recognized some of the photos or something. One of the jobs in particular he had seen :-P

For a minute I thought I was in trouble or something.

[bldgcode1]

Recently I recieved an e-mail that asked about using copper for natural gas piping. And a few people in that thread said they were being forced to use it by the local AHJ. (authority haveing juristiction). Copper is an allowable piping material for natural gas under the International and Uniform codes as well as in NFPA 54, there are a few stipulations.

1) The Copper has to be TYPE L or ACR (IFGC 406, IMC 406, Uniform chapter 13, NFPA chapter 16){one code says L,K and ACR}
2) The Sulfur Hydroxide content CAN NOT exceed 0.3 grains per standard cubic foot! (this is the odor added to Natural gas so you can smell a leak)

Having seen that I searched the codes for allowable content concentrations. It isn't there, but it is in an ASME/ASTM standard and the allowable range is up 0.6 grains per standard cubic foot. Twice what the codes say is allowable.

So call your local Natural Gas supplier and ask them what their Sulfur Hydroxide concentration ranges are. If it the range exceeds 0.3 grains per cubic foot then you can't use copper!

[a better deal]

I will never use copper. i have seen too many pilot tubes that were so brittle that i could crush them with my fingers. long term exposure to ng destroys copper. and gas company policy can change in 30 years

Ps: great thread about the gemini valve. it would be great if we could do a list of problem parts, like the black plastic inducer interlock on rheem furnaces. save a lot of time

[rifter]

Originally posted by PaysonHVAC
...there is no DRIP LEGS installed before the furnaces here and this NEW simple VALVE is more suseptable (spelled?) to any small debri that comes thru the gas line.

Payson I just caught this... er ... well, I work in your city as you know.... well in the past 2 years I've been in town I have YET to see a single drip leg. I mean... I have not seen ONE...

[PaysonHVAC]

I think I have seen a few. RARELY. I think they were on OLD homes with vertical furnaces.

Other than that. You need to drive to NORTHERN AZ cities where they actually inspect installs. There you will see drip legs, cat walks, 30 inches workspace, etc etc etc.

[billg]

Another one bites the dust. Only this one failed by operating at less than one inch water column, until I touched the adjustment screw, then it popped up to 3.5

I especially like the new size gauge ports.

http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac1/181463_IM000300.JPG

http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac1/181464_IM000308.JPG

[dgp]

I sure was glad in one way and horrified in another to see this thread.

In my 5 years of experience I have only seen two of these valves ever... both in the attic of a brand new house of a dear friend of mine. I would not have done anything since I have not heard any problems with these valves in Texas, at least that I remember. However when I first went to service the units for my friend I found that the installers, when piping the gas to the valves, doped the female threads instead of the male threads. Then when the first cold snap came, one furnace did not work. The installing company came out, found that the screen to the valve was plugged (DUH) and his fix, REMOVE IT, although he told my friend that he cleaned it. When I found this, I let him know about what the technician did. I also found on both furnaces that the gas piping was hand tight and the furnace that had not yet been touched had a fairly large gas leak on it you could smell 5 foot away from the furnace. It also had a screen plugged with pipe dope, yet somehow was working. When I told him this, he was ticked. At this time I just replaced both screens and fixed the hack job of piping.

When I found this thread I decided immediately to change the vales. I would not have done this except for what the valves had been through and my friend and his wife have eight children all living there that I certainly did not want anything to happen to them. Went to Goodman, Aquired two Honeywell valves from them, and told my friend that I would try to work something out with Goodman. No luck so far but at least my conscience is clear.

[PaysonHVAC]

Most Goodman distributors here would have warrantied those because they NOW know they suck a$$.

Oh yeah. I initially thought they had NO screens. but the little buggers are way down inside those valves at an angle.

Did you have fun digging it out? Oh, that's right. You replaced them worthless valves.

Look at the old one vs a typical gas valve. notice most have TWO diaghrams that MUST open before gas flows?

Not the gemini! If the SINGLE diaghram sticks, you're F**KED!

[homeowner2]

I did a search on the gas valve and found this site. I am trying to find some information as my whole neighborhood had our gas valves changed today free of charge of course. I could not get any information from the streamline company that was out here. Other than what I have read here the info I have received was very limited and it came from my builder. Does anyone know the true story? My unit is only 2 years old. Should I have had the whole furnace replaced? Is this going on all over Arizona?

I am a little more than concerned as my kids have these same type of furnaces in their new homes.

Any helpful info would be appreciated.

Mac.

[PaysonHVAC]

Hey there. I work in AZ. I'd have to guess that if you got ontop of your roof and looked around you'd have hundreds of hundreds of similar houses with in sight?

While I'll not by shy to say that valve is a P.O.S. I'll say that since they swapped out that said P.O.S. gas valve on YOUR furnace that you should be able to rest assured you have a fairly safe furnace.

While the Goodman may be noisy and break down, it's built in safeties (minus the said sh*tty P.O.S. Gemini Valve) work pretty well. Roll out flame sensors, pressure switch, over temp switch, etc. Those all seemed to function properly on those.

Now I haven't worked for the company (who installed 95% of them systems) for about 7 months now so I've been out of the loop knowing what they have done for repairs to the problem.
I'm glad they (Goodman, Ditributors, Installer, builder) finally owned up to the problem) did something proactive for once.

Now who thinks I was crazy when I started this thread??? :-P

[bldgcode1]

Payson,

Not me! I said as soon as I saw the thread that I thought we as the installing contractors should do something! Looks like we did, and largely due to your effort of making the original post, GOOD WORK!!!!

[homeowner2]

Thank you Payson HVAC.

I am sure we will be alright in our home. My concern is still with my childrens homes. One is a Standard Pacific and the other is a Hancock home. They have the same furnaces as I do. Streamline could not give me any info as far as doing the other builders homes'. The company you call Chainsaw Charlie did our original installation. Why wouldn't they do the replacement? The valves were replaced with ones that were much bigger in size. They seem to be pretty heavy duty. If my childrens homes are not done would it be feasable to pay to have it done? I would rather pay in order to sleep better at night.

Thank you all again, your expertise is very much appreciated.

Mac.

[PaysonHVAC]

Actually the NEW valves you got, are the OLD valves I'm pretty sure LOL!

The Gemini just seems to be a CHEAP single diaghram valve.
NOT to be trusted, that's for sure.

How old are the homes of your children? If it's pre 2002 they may have the older (dependable) valves anyway.
Now that you know what your old one looked like (and the name) you can always crawl into that attic and look.

Good luck getting the furnace panels back on if it's an OLDER Goodman :-)

[subcooling]

these are the same valves in trane package units. The gemini in the trane though has a cracking issue. But as trane states in their alert the crack if found on the outlet side of the valve is not a safety issue, but you should still change the valve.

[PaysonHVAC]

well still, in my short expecience(just under 10 yrs) the only valves I ever thought had a well "known" problem was when the smart valves would have cold solder joints. But they were never burning houses down.

How sad is it that with advanced technolodgy, we also get CHEAP and thus have a market of total crap valves. No matter what brand is using them, the Gemini is just a scary valve from the get go. I hope they stopped making that valve. If not, i hope reputable company's like trane will go back to the other style.

[bumpkin]

Originally posted by PaysonHVAC

How sad is it that with advanced technolodgy, we also get CHEAP and thus have a market of total crap valves. No matter what brand is using them, the Gemini is just a scary valve from the get go. I hope they stopped making that valve. If not, i hope reputable company's like trane will go back to the other style.

Trane is putting those valves into EVERYTHING now, I personally have already changed out a few for being stuck closed from the factory, have yet to see one stuck open. Should be just a matter of time now. :)

[zap]

So, from what I can gather, the gemini valve has not been recalled to date...correct??? Has anyone been compensated by their distributors for changing out the valve before it goes bad?? Sounds like it should be done no matter what.

[PaysonHVAC]

***UPDATE***

I don't know every detail nor can I say names. But a family member was doing a job for a company (not the installing company) going around and changing these said P.O.S. gemini gas valves in track homes with GOODMAN's.

The BUILDER of these particular track homes is paying for ALL valves to be changed with the other (larger and dependable) valves!!!
He said he changed about 20 valves in a day!!! Most homes had two furnaces. But he made a good chunk of change for doing it! It's going to go on for some time I guess. I'll let you know more later. (He don't come here and doesn't even know how to use the internet HA HA!)

Now. This is in the Phoenx area by a TRACK HOME builder. If THEY are paying so much $$$ to replace these in thousands of homes, SOMEONE must be WORRIED now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm...knowing this maybe they'd refuse to even BUY furnaces with them valves?

[bldgcode1]

Payson,

Let's not get carried away. We all know that track home builders are going to buy what ever is the least costly to them. So the question is how do we make the use of this valve more costly?

Publicity is one way, National Safety is another, proving damage, and keep doing what you started: let people know about the potential hazard!

[PaysonHVAC]

Well I was just surprised that a builder basically did their OWN recall! Not sure if it was one of their homes that burned down. Could have been because a few new homes DID burn down here.

So it wasn't GOODMAN or the makers of the Gemeni valve who did a recall. It is the BUILDER.

Now THAT is surprising! A builder musta realized the posibility of the EL CHEAPO furnace causing DEATH!

We'll see what happens.

[MadeinUSA]

With the proof you people gave to the CPSC, it is a disgrace they have not had a recall on them. One valve sticking is one to many, and you people gave them evidence of more than just one.

[MikeJ]

From an ICQ search using Gemini gas valve:


Category: Business > Industries >...> Fluid and Gas Control > Valves, Hoses, Fittings > Valves


Sponsored Links
Gas Valves from American
Natural gas valves, control valves, regulators and meters for all apps.
AmericanMeter.com


Heater Parts-HogSlat
Need heater replacement parts? Free shipping on all heater parts!
http://www.hogslat.biz


ValveExperts.com
Unique valve industry search engine Enter specs, find manufacturers
http://www.valveexperts.com


Results 1 - 10 of 2,060:
HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion - Gemini Gas ...
... You replaced them worthless valves. Look at the old one vs a typical gas valve.
notice most have TWO diaghrams that MUST open before gas flows? Not the gemini! ...
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=46203&pagenumber=lastpage -

HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion - Gemini Gas ...
... long term exposure to ng destroys copper. and gas company policy can change
in 30 years Ps: great thread about the gemini valve. ...
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=46203&pagenumber=5 -

Product - White-Rodgers® Gemini™ Two-stage Gas Valve
... The White-Rodgers® Gemini™ two-stage gas valve has a special two-stage operation
and a compact, multi-function design that works with most two-stage furnace ...
http://www.emersonclimatecontractor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ctp/cs/ProdWRGemTwoStgGasValve.jsp?RootNode=10_Products&OpenNode=30_White_Rodgers_Two_Stage_Gas_Valve&User=false -

White-Rodgers Gemini Two-Stage Gas Valve hite-Rodgers mini Two ...
... The Gemini two-stage gas valve features new, patented “co-axial” technology in the
main and redundant valves, ensuring the dependability, function and ...
http://www.emersonclimate.com/images/pdf/ultragasvalve3.pdf -

Going back for more reading before my nap time.

[PaysonHVAC]

Wow. It's now been a YEAR since I started this thread.

My bro-in-law is going to be changing another batch of valves for that builder this weekend.

I wonder how many he will have changed by the end of the month? These builders build homes by the hundreds in each track. Goodman's are ever popular there too.

[drifter99]

well had a brand new bryant with a gemini gas valve that i replaced today has not worked correctly since day one. had the rep out he blamed the pitch which yes was off slightly two days later its out again. i'm hoping i solved the problem kinda funny was going to post a question tonight and this is what came up first tapped thed gemine and the gas pressure would go crazy any thoughts??? tim

[MikeJ]

quote: "he blamed the pitch which yes was off slightly two days later its out again."

At a quarter in per foot on the pitch, define 'off slightly.' If it was horizontal, well that could cause problems when the condensate built up, same as if the pipe has a low spot.


the original valve 'went crazy' when you tapped it? Define crazy. How much did it flucuate? I would guess the reading should stay steady even if you thumped it with a ball peen hammer. Haven't tested one that way....yet.

[drifter99]

the gas pressure would bounce up and down about 1",the furnace it self is a 350mav024060 bryant, the furnace itself is a left hand horizontal discharge and it was level the flues where pithched correctly. got a call this morning it was out again off on ignition failure reset unit fired off fine 5 times flame okay on readings from flame sensor, rep to meet me there again on tuesday ready to take it out and put in a goodman. sad.any ideas? changed out gas valve friday afternoon, board was changed by another tech.

[PaysonHVAC]

Goodman??? :CHOKE: although i think they stopped using the Gemini but not sure.

You could just go buy a new gas valve or show your rep this thread LOL :-P

Maybe the guy will give you a different MODEL gas valve to try out.

I'm curious, Where are you located.

[PaysonHVAC]

Today i was in a Goodman dealer to get a part.
Looked inside a late 2004 model furnace and giess what?
NO GEMINI gas valve!!!!

It had a REAL older style valve again!

looks like someone woke up.

I wonder how my bro in law is doing working for that company who is replacing them gemini valves by the thousands for that builder???

[Chad711]

Originally posted by speckledflounder
OH YEAH??!!

Well, Trane, Am. Std., Carrier, Bryant, Lennox, Ruud, Rheem, York, Armstrong, Concord, Goodman, Weather King, Water Furnace, Aaon, Tempstar, Janitrol, GE, Maytag, Amana, Heil, Whirlpool, Frigidaire, and Ford ALL suck.

Your forgetting #1..

COLEMAN

[bigdaddy1269]

The company I work for contacted the manufactor and they said they ran all test and past but after further review on the valves sticking is caused by no drip leg installed on new installs. They recommended drip legs on new installs so it could collect anything that would cause it to stick. But the way I see it we should not have to go through this problem at all or worry about the valves sticking and putting the homeowner in danger!

[Chad711]

Originally posted by speckledflounder
OH YEAH??!!

Well, Trane, Am. Std., Carrier, Bryant, Lennox, Ruud, Rheem, York, Armstrong, Concord, Goodman, Weather King, Water Furnace, Aaon, Tempstar, Janitrol, GE, Maytag, Amana, Heil, Whirlpool, Frigidaire, and Ford ALL suck.

Your forgetting #1..

COLEMAN

[Chad711]

oops :)

[bobby1]

Wow! What a thread! Just installed an AM 2 stage with a Gemini converted to LP. I'm not getting enough gas pressure and the adjustment #s I'm getting have changed three times. I also researched this valve because they list two LP conv kit #s and have even given me a third, totally wrong # kit. It seems that the newer "B" kit has the barbed fitting and hose kit included where the "A" kit did not. Then I noticed that the -202 at the end of my valve # was not even listed on WR's site, but the replacement # -214 was. The reason they gave me was that the 202 was sold with the unit and the 214 is sold loose as a replacement....??? I wonder if the 214 is an updated valve? Has anyone found out what or if there's a better valve (dual solonoid) that can replace these Geminis? I'm going to call my AS/Trane tech to hear what he has to say. Any updates on these valves going bad? Any actions or recalls?

[jrbenny]

..

[PaysonHVAC]

Originally posted by bobby1
Wow! What a thread! Just installed an AM 2 stage with a Gemini converted to LP. I'm not getting enough gas pressure and the adjustment #s I'm getting have changed three times. I also researched this valve because they list two LP conv kit #s and have even given me a third, totally wrong # kit. It seems that the newer "B" kit has the barbed fitting and hose kit included where the "A" kit did not. Then I noticed that the -202 at the end of my valve # was not even listed on WR's site, but the replacement # -214 was. The reason they gave me was that the 202 was sold with the unit and the 214 is sold loose as a replacement....??? I wonder if the 214 is an updated valve? Has anyone found out what or if there's a better valve (dual solonoid) that can replace these Geminis? I'm going to call my AS/Trane tech to hear what he has to say. Any updates on these valves going bad? Any actions or recalls?

I've been out of the loop for a while since I'm not working for the company who is installing in track homes anymore.

I DO know they were replacing valves a while back with standard (older style two valve) ones.
But that was the BUILDER paying for that since they had so many close calls when a few houses burnt down. They figured it was cheaper than killing a family...

I don't know about an UPDATED Gemini valve. i figured WR should just DUMP that single valve line and go back with the proven design. But probably not. Them simple Gemini valves are probably a lot cheaper to make!

[MadeinUSA]

I still can not believe there was never a recall on these. Someone received a payoff on this you can bet.

[bobby1]

An engineer in Trenton said that they saved ONE dollar per valve!! I'll post after I speak to him again.

[slctech]

White Rodges just released new information concerning the upgraded Gemini Valve. Thought I'd throw this link out for those in the search engine looking for information and specifications
http://www.white-rodgers.com/pdfs/sell_sheets/R_4106.pdf#search='GEMINI%20GAS%20VALVE'

[sonc]

I just replaced a W/R gas valve in a Carrier 48TFE-006, with one of these Gemini ones. Should I go rip it out? I think I'm gonna.

Carrier dude said it was the direct replacement, and I have never seen a valve that looks as cheaply made. No pressure taps, either.

[MechAcc]

Originally posted by sonc
I just replaced a W/R gas valve in a Carrier 48TFE-006, with one of these Gemini ones. Should I go rip it out? I think I'm gonna.

Carrier dude said it was the direct replacement, and I have never seen a valve that looks as cheaply made. No pressure taps, either.


Those two nipple shaped objects on the valves are your pressure taps. There is an allen screw in the center of the nipple. Loosen 1/4 - 1/2 turn only, is what we were told at service meeting. Do not remove the allen screw. Slide your hose for gas measuring device over the nipple to where it stays. To read the incoming gas pressure you have to shutoff the gas cock since the new gas valves only have an electrical switch and not a shutoff valve.

You may want to locate a hose, before hand, with an I.D. large enough to slip over the gage port nipple and yet will stay. And a reducing coupling to attach to your hose for whatever gas pressure reading instrument you use.

[MechAcc]

Originally posted by MechAcc

Originally posted by sonc
I just replaced a W/R gas valve in a Carrier 48TFE-006, with one of these Gemini ones. Should I go rip it out? I think I'm gonna.

Carrier dude said it was the direct replacement, and I have never seen a valve that looks as cheaply made. No pressure taps, either.


Those two nipple shaped objects on the valves are your pressure taps. There is an allen screw in the center of the nipple. Loosen 1/4 - 1/2 turn only, is what we were told at service meeting. Do not remove the allen screw. Slide your hose for gas measuring device over the nipple to where it stays. To read the incoming gas pressure you have to shutoff the gas cock since the new gas valves only have an electrical switch and not a shutoff valve. Attach your hose then turn the gas back on.

You may want to locate a hose, before hand, with an I.D. large enough to slip over the gage port nipple and yet will stay. And a reducing coupling to attach to your hose for whatever gas pressure reading instrument you use.

[compresser100]

hey payson the new ruud gas packs has those too!! Just kidding!! Why would they get that cheap??

[Senior Tech]

Originally posted by sonc
I just replaced a W/R gas valve in a Carrier 48TFE-006, with one of these Gemini ones. Should I go rip it out? I think I'm gonna.

Carrier dude said it was the direct replacement, and I have never seen a valve that looks as cheaply made. No pressure taps, either.

No pressure taps?....sure your looking in the right spot?

[sonc]

Not entirely

[ct_hvac_tech]

I think anything Gemini is a POS.........

I am a DJ on the side, and about a year ago, I bought a Gemini CD player for DJing, similar to this one. (The model I have is discontinued, but this one is very similar and is probably still a POS)

http://geminidj.com/cd200.html

I paid almost $300 for this CD player and it is the worst f@cking pice of sh*t I've ever owned.

I was dissapointed when I first bought it and it took so friggin' long for a CD to load up. (Meaning from the time you put in the CD until the time you are able to push play and have the song actually start.) It takes it's time, that's for sure.

About 4 months in, the drawer on deck 1 started screwing up right at the beginning of a gig. Luckilly, I was able to adjust it, but it still sounds like gears grinding sometimes when you open and close the drawer.

Last week at a gig (Luckilly a bar gig where it didn't really matter) deck 2 just stops working! Completely! I put in a disc and it does not even spin up, and the disc spits back out.

TALK ABOUT A POS!!

The bad think is, the OLDER Gemini DJ CD players were GOOD back in the day!

Never again will I buy a gemini product though.

As I think back, Gemini's cable splitters and converter boxes were never any good either.

[PaysonHVAC]

Dude. I looked at thet link to the WR Gemini gas valve and it SHOWS a redundant safety valve. WTF? I figured they did NOT have one! Unless that's a NEW addition???


Anyway. UPDATE!!!!

Just talked to a tech that works at Charlies (they install like 10k units per year, but mostly heat pumps) and he said the new Carrier's have them in it and he had FOUR bad gemini valves this last week! The valves creep back open and you get a complaint for GAS SMELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's just ONE TECH out of 30???


Still a POS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That line of WR valves is clearly a un safe failure! And should just be DROPPED! What is $1 per valve worth after they get a class action law suite????


Just with how many failures Charlie has reported in the last 3 years should be enough to halt that **** from being produced!

[MadeinUSA]

So with this kind of evidence of the valves still failing, why the hell isn’t the CPSC doing anything to protect the public.

Are their pockets getting lined so good they could careless about the public now?

[jeffcdntech]

Worked on one of these yesterday. Propane. Some pleasant person stripped the slot out the regulator adjustment cap.

I had to remove to make an adjustment after i found the manifold pressure running at 7.5" w.c.

This was not on a G26. :mad:

This was on a 2 year old G51.

Had to remove manifold and all and work away at it to get the cap off.

Tried a close up pic of the stripped cap but it was too blury.

Anyway here is what i think:

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/4115/jan180057if.jpg

[jwbryce]

If you don't like the rest look at a Ducane. Not a bad unit.

[outside rep]

Originally posted by speckledflounder
OH YEAH??!!

Well, Trane, Am. Std., Carrier, Bryant, Lennox, Ruud, Rheem, York, Armstrong, Concord, Goodman, Weather King, Water Furnace, Aaon, Tempstar, Janitrol, GE, Maytag, Amana, Heil, Whirlpool, Frigidaire, and Ford ALL suck.

WOOO HOOO he didnt say McQuay :D That must be the best peice of equipment ever :p