What other options are there besides Waterfurnace

[crowl31]

I'm new here so please don't be to harsh if this is a repost or common knowledge to everyone else.

I'm about to start consturction in the spring on our new house (in Maryland) and I am setting appointments now with all subs and the only brand of geothermal system I can find is WaterFurnace Envision.

Who else has Geo Thermal systems?

Is there a site that has reviews/comparissions of the different systems.

Thanks!

[farbeondriven]

climate master, econair. two that we use besides water furnace

[Bergy]

GeoComfort and Hydron Module. Both are manufactured by Enertech Mfg.

Bergy

[dandyme]

Florida Heat Pump FHP

[crowl31]

Thanks for the replies.

[ChaseAir]

We can get Waterfurnace although our rep is very slow to get back to us. FHP has one of the oldest branches in our city, therefore they are the orneriest to deal with. They do not answer questions well, some of their equipment has serious defects in my opinion. For example: a cupronickel coil that is connected with large, thin copper fitting that get eaten up at the slightest hint of sulphur. Why would you want a durable coil and have fittings that are absolutely weak?

Climatemaster apparently does not want to sell to us in Jacksonville FL, I have contacted them numerous times.:argue:

[Williamsburg]

Three years ago we installed two Waterfurnace Versatec systems (dual zoned) for a new construction home. They have been under a maintenance agreement by the installer since they were installed. They cost about $30,000and up until recently, we were pleased with the systems.

A couple of weeks ago, in unseasonably cold weather, the downstairs unit stopped blowing hot air. The installer sent a technician. He said it was a coil leak in the compressor, and would cost $1,800 ($1,500 with the maintenance agreement discount) to replace. Two days later, the upstairs system did the same thing. The technician said it was also a manufacturing defect, and both were leaking in approximately the same place, from the sealed coils. We got a second opinion from another local Waterfurnace dealer. We were told the same thing. It was a manufacturing defect. The original installer called WF. They were told the part was made in Canada, so it was not their problem, they just put it into the unit. And the coils only had a 1 year warranty. Tough luck. The other local company called WF, too. Tough luck. We have replaced one unit ($1,500) and are waiting the week it takes for the part to come from Canada to replace the other 3-year old unit. Any cost savings in utility bills have gone up in smoke, plus, plus.

Waterfurance's literature about Versatec highlights how reliable the equipment is. Does this sound reliable? I understand this part is not unlike the coils on a refrigerator. My old Kenmore refrigerator ran for over twenty years. My new one is trouble-free after ten years. We would recommend and buy Kenmore again. No so with Waterfurnace. Not now. I am worried that the replacement coils on the Versatec systems will fail again.

My husband agrees it is a manufacturing defect. He is a professor of aerospace engineering at a large SE University and knows a bit about machinery. We are hanging onto the two defective parts, as I suspect these may not have been the only questionable units that came off the assembly line that day. There could be more coils that have failed or are about to fail, saddling the consumers with expensive repairs. Has anyone else had this problem?

[Some Dude]

If im not mistaken water furnace is also sold under different names as well.
I looked into selling them and never got a call back.

[junkhound]

A knowledgeable tech with a well equipped shop can fabricate/install a gshp or wshp from component parts that likely will outperform the best of the commercial units for less that the commercial unit list price.

However, to get most rebates or incentives (which can be appreciable, aka $1500 or so) the unit usually has to be ARI rated, which limits selection to the production units where th mfg has paid big bucks for the testing.

[rocky123]

A knowledgeable tech with a well equipped shop can fabricate/install a gshp or wshp from component parts that likely will outperform the best of the commercial units for less that the commercial unit list price.

[drsmith012]

My envision has a leaky air coil as well. But I have a ten year warranty. Yes I am disappointed that this has happened. My installer did mention that the replacement coils are noticably heavier than the ones originally installed. I really hope I get 20 years or more out of this thing.

[Kevin O'Neill]

Carrier.

[joemach]

I'm new here so please don't be to harsh if this is a repost or common knowledge to everyone else.

I'm about to start consturction in the spring on our new house (in Maryland) and I am setting appointments now with all subs and the only brand of geothermal system I can find is WaterFurnace Envision.

Who else has Geo Thermal systems?

Is there a site that has reviews/comparissions of the different systems.

Thanks!

We install lots of Climate Masters. I have not seen any major problems with their equipment. The small issues that we have had were handled very easily & quickly by our local water furnace dealer.

Water furnace has had problems with air coils for years. They can't seem to get it right.

Just remember, most warrantees only cover parts, not labor.

Hope this helps.

[FL_green_home]

My new, green home is less than two years old (6000 sq.ft.). I have two Waterfurnace Envision units (3.5 ton and 5 ton) running 2 and 4 zones respectively. Both units stopped heating this winter and I had to run the propane fireplaces to keep the house warm until I could get the original contractor back in to check the units. They are telling me today that both units have leaking coils and will need to be replaced! So, needless to say I am NOT happy with Waterfurnace right now. I will be calling them tomorrow to see what, if anything they will do about this besides provide replacement parts under the warranty.

Unhappy Customer

[Octopus]

The most efficent Air conditioner in the world= Shade, natural air flow...Etc.

Other than that check this out

Solar produced, steam driven, double effect, parallel flow, 16 kW Broad BCT 16 absorption chiller

http://www.wbdg.org/research/buildingtechnology.php?a=1

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

We have read through your comments regarding your WaterFurnace units. We understand your concerns. If you will provide your model number, serial number, and the name of your installing contractor, we will request that the coils be sent back for testing.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

Here is the information for my units:

5 Ton Unit
Model: NDH064A101CSL
Serial #: X12968

3.5 Ton Unit
Model: NDH038A101CSL
Serial #: X12966

Contractor: Air Supply Inc., Crawfordville, FL, (850)926-5550

Sorry to post this information on this thread but I could not find a private messaging facility on this forum.

The leak testing and diagnostics alone cost me nearly $400 already... is any of this cost covered under the labor allowance part of my 10 year warranty?

Thank you for your help.

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

Thank you for the information. Our 10 year parts and labor allowance warranty provides the part at no charge and a labor allowance to change out the part. The labor allowance for all repairs to our unit is a set flat fee. The rate we pay does not vary from one contractor to the next. If the amount provided does not cover the contractor’s normal fee, the contractor makes the decision on whether or not he will pass through the cost to the consumer.

We have been in contact with Air Supply, Inc. and requested that the coils be sent back for testing. Once we have received the test results, then we can discuss additional assistance.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

The contractor told me that the WaterFurnace labor allowance covers 30% of the labor cost... is this not correct? They have estimated $1327 to replace both coils and restore refrigerant... minus 30% (-$398) for a cost of $929 (plus the $388 I've already paid to diagnose the problem = $1317 total).

What is the amount of the set flat fee of which you speak?

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

WaterFurnace is dealer direct, and unfortunately, we are unable to discuss pricing information with homeowners. The labor allowance is a set flat fee that does not vary from one contractor to the next. We use industry accepted flat rate times and an average hourly rate for all repairs. The contractor is independently owned and operated, and not under our control; therefore, they make the decision as to whether they will pass through the cost to the consumer.

We regularly check our warranty allowance with those of our competitors and find that we consistently cover more items for longer periods and at more generous rates than our competition. Any questions or concerns regarding pricing should be directed to the contractor.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Williamsburg]

To the Waterfurnace Rep on This Thread,

I also posted about our leaky coil problem on this thread prior to this gentlemen's ("Unhappy Customer") complaint.

My post was "Waterfurnace Versatec Evaporator Coil Leaks" posted on 12-23-2009 at 2:42 PM)...I am the homeowner who had TWO Waterfurnace Versatec coils fail at the same time on two, three-year-old systems at Christmas. Sadly, we were out of luck. It sounds like this man just had a similar thing happen but he happily, got more than a one year warranty like we did. One thing we did learn: we should have been very proactive in researching and specifing the geothermal HVAC systems that we installed in our new construction home. Hindsight is always 20/20, I guess.

These leaking coils are not small, inexpensive repairs. It brings the system to its knees and costs a great deal of money to fix. But at least you responded to this man's post. Mine received no such response.

You are a Waterfurnace rep, so it is a rare opportunity to communicate directly with you, and not via "an independent dealer." The dealer that installed our systems no longer sells Waterfurnace--they have switched to a different manufacturer.

Since you cannot discuss costs, can you discuss the equipment you sell?

What is the expected average lifespan for coils in the systems you sell? I am curious...do you know...what is the average life span for kitchen refrigerators and radiators in large trucks...the coils are a similar design, right? Is there something really complex or complicated about the coil systems in geothermal systems that causes them to fail?

Please forgive my ignorance. I am just a poor female homeowner who now worries every day about the reliability of the replacement coils we installed in our two systems at Christmas time---will they fail in the next few years, too? Any cost savings we had from the systems went up in smoke--rather disappointing, when we installed the expensive-up-front systems in order to save money.

Please forgive me, but I am an unhappy (and concerned) customer, too.

[FL_green_home]

So, Waterfurnace pays the dealer/installer an undisclosed amount for labor to fix a warranty issue... and then the dealer/installer gets to decide how much of that payment to credit to the homeowner. Can anybody else see what is wrong with that process? Why would a manufacturer allow their customer satisfaction to be left at the discretion of a third party (the dealer/installer)?

My installer tells me that I only get 30% off my warranty labor... how is that even close to the industry standard for this type of repair? How can a customer even determine if they are getting the value of the warranty they paid for up front if the allowance is a secret between the manufacturer and the dealer?

Shall we continue this discussion in a public forum or would you prefer to provide a name and phone number so that we can discuss this directly.

Thanks.

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

We apologize that you did not receive a response to your post. WaterFurnace joined the social media networks in January of 2010 in order to better assist WaterFurnace owners. We are doing our best to respond to posts as they come in. We encourage anyone with an issue to contact us, so that we may offer our assistance.

The life expectancy of our systems is 15-20 years, depending on the installation, application, and conditions under which they operate. The coils in refrigerators and automobile radiators have the same principal as the coils in our units; however, the design, application, and refrigerant are different.

Unfortunately, we are unaware of what might have caused the leak in your coils. If you will provide your model number, serial number, and the name of your installing contractor, we will request that the coils be returned for testing, if they still have them. Again, we apologize that you were not responded to earlier. We are more than happy to work with you and your contractor to facilitate a resolution.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

We will be more than happy to provide the warranty schedule for your unit. Please confirm your email address so that we can provide this to you.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

You may send the information to: nospam_acct@mindspring.com

Thanks.

[Williamsburg]

Waterfurnace,

Our systems were installed by Extreme Climates (757) 229-2191 on behalf of the best custom builder in this area. They replaced the two leaking air coils. They no longer sell your equipment. They have the information on our two units: I know they called you at the time. That is what they told me. Extreme Climates replaced both coil units for $2,400. They gave us a discount on the second unit because they felt bad for us. Our names are Colin and Clare Britcher and we live in Williamsburg. Perhaps you would like to give them a call?

We had a second opinion from Bud's Heating and Air Conditioning (757) 890-2600. They told me that they contacted you at the time on our behalf as well. They do sell your equipment. We had them look at the installation, conditions, etc. and the written reports on both systems were clean. I thought I'd mention this BEFORE you got around to blaming the installation for the problem. We asked about the installation, conditions, etc. We were told it was fine. Both firms said they considered it to be "a manufacturing defect" in the coils.

When both firms contacted you they were told, "1 year warranty." So you washed your hands and left it to the local dealer to punch out a solution and deal with us. Bud's now has our maintenance contract, as we thought we may get better customer service from you if the dealer sold your equipment, and Bud's seemed like a professional and customer-service oriented company. We also liked Extreme Climates but as I said, they have switched suppliers.

I will ask my husband to respond to the group with serial numbers, etc. in the event that you choose not to conatct the installing dealer directly. Let me know if you need the serial numbers, and if you would consider furnishing us with your private telephone number, Email, and name. At this point, my only way to contact you is via this forum. I'd be happy to send you our private contact information, privately.

My husband is a proferssor of Aerospace/Mechanical Engineering at a large southeastern university, and has worked for many years with NASA and wind tunnels. He was educated in Europe, where they require PhD students to do hands-on training on assembly lines: he knows his way around machinery and manufacturing. I believe you will find that he can discuss the equipment problems we had with your coils with some level of understanding. He said that in his opinion, the coils should NOT have failed so soon.

Extreme Climates submerged the units in a wheel barrow filled with water in order to show me that the units were indeed leaking. They failed at almost the same time, and were leaking in almost the same place. The failures were confirmed by the second opinion, too. I know I asked this before...are coil leaks a common problem with your equipment? Just curious.

We kept the leaky coils, on advice from the dealer. Where shall I send them?

If the air coil units in the Versatec system you sell are reliable, then why are they only under a 1 year warranty? If they should last for 20 years, then why not warrant them for say 10 or 15 years and split the difference of the risk with your customers?

I do truly appreciate your responding, finally. May I make a suggestion, though? In the future, when you join a group such as this one, you may want to do a group message search on "waterfurnace." That way you will get to see what everyone has had to say about their experiences, good or bad, and you can then respond to those customers who may have a problem that you can help to resolve. Just a thought.

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

Thank you for the additional information. We have been in contact with both contractors and are waiting on additional information. Once we have received this information, we will be in contact with you.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[danielworkerbee]

Dear, WF Inc.
I think your jumping to help these people is a testament to your customer service.
thanks dan

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

After reviewing information provided by Extreme Climates, we have determined that the serial numbers you provided are for Paradise units. WaterFurnace assembled these units for Paradise. There is a 1 year parts and 5 year compressor manufacturer’s warranty; however, Paradise may have offered other warranty options. We would suggest contacting Extreme Climates to discuss what warranty was purchased with your unit.

We will be more than happy to test the coils for the failure reason. Please send the coils to the address below, and include your name and the model and serial numbers of the units. Thank you for the opportunity to work with you to resolve this issue.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.
Attn: Consumer Relations Department
9000 Conservation Way
Fort Wayne, IN 46709

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Williamsburg]

Waterfurnace,

While you consider the matter "resolved", I fear it has done little to remedy our to-date unhappy experience with the expensive, leaky coil replacements. But I will thank you for at last agreeing to look at the failed units. I will ship them to you, on my nickle. My hope is that you will take some sort of steps to insure that the coils in your units, for whatever reason, last longer than 3 years, especially when you say they should last 15 or 20.

By the way, who in the world is Paradise??? The metal sticker on the inside of the cabinet on our systems says "Indiana." Our dealers say Versatec is a Waterfurnace product, as does your website and the marketing brochures. We were told we have Versatec systems by both local dealers, but you now say no, they are Paradise, assembled by Waterfurnace??? Is "Paradise" the firm in Canada? Are they one of your subsidiary companies? Who is Paradise???

What "other warranty options" are you talking about that Extreme Climates may have had with Paradise? I am confused, because I thought a warranty is a warranty, and that Waterfurnace assembles and markets the Versatec systems, so therefore has some responsibility to the end-users for the parts and the dealers. Can you please explain how this Dealer options for warranty on parts works? Why is this separate warranty with Paradise, and Waterfurnace is not at all invloved? My head is spinning.

When I get my car serviced, they do not tell me to call the parts manufacturer in Japan. When I call Sears for service on my kitchen appliances, they do not refer me to the people who made the heating coils in the oven. And to make things even more confusing, the dealer acts independently from you...and our "Waterfurnace" systems are not Waterfurnace but "Paradise." At least that is my impression. Please correct me if I am wrong about this! Can you see why I am confused?

Getting back to Paradise. This is the first time I have ever heard or read that name...did they make the entire system? Or do they just make the coils in the Waterfurnace Versatec systems? I went back to your website and looked at the online brochures:

http://www.waterfurnace.com/marketing/brochures/pdf/WF1581.pdf

http://secure.waterfurnace.com/docs/FB507406666/manuals/versatec/SP2600.pdf

The brochures do not, I think, mention Paradise--only Waterfurnace, and talk about the reliability of the equipment. Or did I miss something? Are Versatec systems Waterfurnace or Paradise? Please explain this to me, because I am really confused now.

You stated in your reply that for your part you have "resolved this issue". But do you think I am a more happy and satisified customer than I was ten minutes ago? Do you think I feel everything is now "resolved" and that I am if not happy, at least relieved? Truthfully, I am even more confused and more worried about the replacement coils in our systems. If Paradise did actually make our systems, what happens if they go out of business?

It seems the corporate definition of "customer service" is not the same as my idea of "customer satisfaction." Maybe even the idea of who makes the geothermal HVAC systems is a matter of opinion. Beats me.

Ok, I'll send you the leaky coils, return receipt requested. I'll add the shipping expense to our current $2,400 repair expenses on our two, then-3 year old systems.

In your final reply, you said, "Thank you for the opportunity to work with you to resolve this issue." Sounds like on your end, you consder this whole thing to be done and dusted.

Thank you too, for your concern and help. Would you like for me to post a customer testimonal on your website? But first, which is it? Waterfurnace or Paradise?

Respectfully but thoroughly confused,
Williamsburg

[Popoff]

I was planning to sign a contract tomorrow with my local dealer for a Water Furnace installation. Seeing Williamsburg's post and WF's response (or lack thereof) are making me wonder if I'm making a good decision. Williamsburg bought a WF unit and now it appears that WF is disowning it. Will this happen to me if I have problems?

I think I'll postpone placing the order until I see how this plays out.

[FL_green_home]

I don't blame you for hesitating Popoff. Looks like I may be on the hook for over $1200 in diagnostics and labor on two units only two years old... both coils are leaking according to the dealer/installer. The dealer/installer tells me that WF only pays for 30% of the labor and nothing for diagnostics or refrigerant. WF tells me that they pay a flat fee for labor, including diagnostics, and partial payment for refrigerant.

So, now I have to call the installer and ask them why they are not giving me the full amounts paid for by the WF warranty... in other words calling them dishonest. I'm sure you can see where this is going... not the kind of experience an owner imagines when they are deciding to purchase what was supposed to be the best equipment in the category.

It makes you wonder what percentage of units sold are failing to make a company not just step up and "make it right" by the customer as many first rate, customer oriented companies will do. Especially for a high-ticket item such as this where it's really more of an "investment" than a one-off purchase.

My house was featured in a magazine article last year where the geothermal units were mentioned as one of the major "green" features that require a significant up-front investment but will pay for themselves over time. I may have to update them with a follow-up editorial based on how things are handled by all parties involved here.

[Bergy]

The Paradise brand was manufactured by WFI for Enertech. Enertech no longer has units made by WFI as they now manufacture their own. The 1 year parts and 5 year compressor was standard warranty for WFI at the time. Dealers could offer, through Equiguard, extended parts and labor warranties. If your dealer did not offer, or you did not want, an extended warranty then you are on your own. The 1&5 warranty always bothered me, after all, even the lower end furnaces and condensers had 5 year parts 10 year compressor warranty. My thought was if I'm asking someone to pay 20~30K it should have the BEST warranty to reflect the cost.

Bergy

[ChaseAir]

If a coil leaks and we gave you a ten year parts and labor warranty, you would not be paying anything for ten years. A lot of companies apparently don't have warranties that are true.
They have "concrete warranties" - when the truck leaves the concrete driveway, so does the warranty....

[Williamsburg]

Thank you, Bergy, for explaining the the strange "Paradise" reference. Except it isn't Paradise, it's Enertech! That must be the company in Canada that replaced the leaky coils!? Is it just me, or is this all rather confusing?

Ok, if I am sifting through all the information correctly, I think our systems are indeed Waterfurnace, by default. That's what the two local dealers thought, too. But it sounds like the warranty does not vest with WF, but with Paradise, which is now Enertech? Enertech is in Canada (?) so they may have different manufacturing and consumer standards? Just wondering, since I do not live in Canada, but in the USA. The inside sticker on our units still say "Indiana."

It further seems that the installing dealer, who never asked us anything about any extended warranties, could have bought a longer-than-one-year warranty, but didn't. The Paradise (now "Enertech") warranty could have been upgraded with another company called Equigard. At least, I think this is right. Like I said, this is all pretty confusing for me. We now have two more new new names, Enertech and Equigard, in addition to Paradise. I wonder what the next name that pops up will be? One thing is for sure, our two systems have a pedigree with more names than Secretariat had in his pedigree. Ha!

The installing dealer no longer sells WF and since everything seems to center around the dealer rather than the end-user as far as warranties, that's not so good. But we have done something right...our new maintenance contract is with a WF dealer. They seem like a nice firm. I hope they are good at keeping the equipment running, fingers crossed. They have a good local reputation.

We DID have enough sense to ask about the replacement coils. We were told "1 year warranty." Does Equigard offer an extended warranty on replacement parts? Does anyone know? That would have been at least some assurance, in case the coils start to leak again before 15-20 years. But then again, we got the replacement coils through the dealer who no longer sells WF. I guess, that's not so good. Oh well. Maybe I can still get in touch with Equigard, or do I have to be a dealer?

Please, please, if I am wrong about any of these assumptions, please set me straight. I am sifting through an awful lot of names and information here.

FL Green Home: I hope your journey is more straight-forward than mine has been, and that you get your leaking coils fixed, and that the replacements run trouble-free for 30 years, and that it does not cost a bunch of money!

Popoff, I cannot tell you where to go, only where I have been, and where I am now. I really, really wish my husband and I had researched and spec'ed our HVAC units with the same care and concern that we used when we spec'ed our light fixtures and our exterior finishes. With hindsight, our choices would have been much different. Good luck with your geothermal system...I do think, in spite of everything, they are the way of the future.

As of this minute, our two systems are operating well, and are trouble-free. I pray to that continues for many years to come. You see, I, more than anyone else, really want the systems to work and work well, because they live with me every day of my life and do much to see to my family's comfort. God willing, my systems will out-live me.

Williamsburg

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

Please accept our apologies as we believe that our intentions were not made clear. Please understand that in no way did we mean to imply that we consider this issue resolved. Unfortunately, until we know the cause of the coil failures, we are unable to offer any suggestions for resolution.

WaterFurnace assembled Paradise equipment for Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) customers and distributors. The OEM customers and distributors determine the warranties and selling price of Paradise equipment, whereas WaterFurnace equipment is manufactured and sold directly to WaterFurnace dealers in your area. WaterFurnace is supported by customer service, technical service, and warranty departments in Fort Wayne, Indiana, while customer support for Paradise equipment is provided by the OEM customers and distributors.

According to our information Extreme Climates has never been a WaterFurnace dealer; therefore, they are unable to purchase WaterFurnace equipment. When we spoke to Extreme Climates, they confirmed that the equipment in your home is Paradise equipment, and that they had been contracted by your builder. It is unfortunate that you were not made aware of this at the time of purchase.

We do understand your concerns and will do what we can to assist you in facilitating a resolution. We are currently waiting to hear from Extreme Climates to discuss your issue further. Once we have discussed these issues with them and have tested the coils we will be in contact with you to review our findings.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

Popoff,

We agree that you should be educated as to what you are purchasing. If you purchase WaterFurnace equipment from a WaterFurnace dealer, you will have a WaterFurnace warranty and access to consumer relations. Your WaterFurnace dealer will also have access to customer support, technical support, field support, warranty, etc.

In Williamsburg situation, she thought that she had purchased WaterFurnace equipment. Unfortunately, the equipment is Paradise equipment. We have offered to test the failed coils, and we will stand behind that offer, and will assist in a resolution for her.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

Please be assured that we are not calling your contractor dishonest. When we spoke to your contractor they informed us that the labor allowance provided by WaterFurnace is approximately 30% of what they charge. The decision to pass any charges above and beyond warranty on to you is made by the contractor. One contractor may quote a higher amount that includes service work, while another contractor may quote a lower amount that doesn’t include service work. All contractors independently price and sell service contracts, which may or may not include additional warranty coverage, and this is beyond the control of WaterFurnace. We have honored the warranty purchased with your equipment per the terms and conditions of our published warranty. Once we have tested the coils and determined the failure reason, we can discuss a resolution to these concerns.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

Bergy and ChaseAir,

The standard warranty for WaterFurnace units is a 10 year parts and labor allowance warranty. This warranty includes the part at no charge and a labor allowance to change out the part.

We regularly check our warranty allowance with those of our competitors and find that we consistently cover more items for longer periods and at more generous rates than our competition. In addition, we provide more technical assistance than our competitors.

As stated in a previous post, Williamsburg thought she had WaterFurnace equipment. As it turns out the units are Paradise equipment. We offered to test the coils before we were aware that the units were not WaterFurnace equipment; however, we will stand behind our offer in an effort to assist Williamsburg in finding a resolution.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Popoff]

WF, thank you for the prompt response to my post as well as the others.

I spoke to my dealer today (a WF authorized contractor) and he stated that they are contractually bound to WF to accept the labor charge paid by WF and not pass on any additional labor charges to the customer. This is different than what I'm reading in your most recent post.

From past direct experience and knowledge of his reputation in the area, I know my contractor to be an honest and reliable person so it puzzles me as to the contradiction between what he told me and what I'm reading here.

I've emailed him and am awaiting his reply. Any comments you would care to make would also be appreciated.

I'm looking at installing an Envision system and am excited about the prospect.

[WF_Inc]

Popoff,

WaterFurnace does not authorize anyone to service equipment on our behalf; however, we do have dealers that are able to purchase equipment from us. Our Owner’s Manual explains that the labor allowance is designed to reduce the cost of repairs. However, it may not cover the entire labor fee charged by your dealer. Not all warranty options include a labor allowance. All WaterFurnace dealers are independently owned and operated, and not under our control. If the dealer chooses not to pass those charges on to you, then that is their choice. Please visit our website, www.waterfurnace.com (http://www.waterfurnace.com), and click on “Your Home.” Under “WaterFurnace Owners,” at the bottom left corner, you will find our Owner’s Manual.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

WF Inc,

I was not suggesting that WF was calling my installer dishonest. I was simply pointing out that there was a contradiction between what the installer told me WF would pay and the WF labor allowance schedule you sent to me. The labor allowance schedule you sent to me indicates that I am entitled to almost twice as much allowance as what the installer was giving me. When I informed the installer that I was given the allowance schedule by WF, they acted as if they did not know the amounts of the allowances for my units. When I told them the amounts, they immediately offered to credit me those amounts. I will leave any conclusions as to the honesty (or diligence) of my installer up to those reading this thread.

My question now is... is the refrigerant allowance noted at the bottom of the schedule ($11 per lb. per ton) in addition to, or included in, the labor allowance amount? And how does that amount apply to my 3.5 ton and 5 ton units? In other words, what does "per lb. per ton" mean?

[ChaseAir]

If you pay anything you are doing better than some of this junk out there that doesnt pay a dime when 8% of their coils fail in the first year....

Bottom line is people should not shop equipment so much as the company installing it because that is who you will deal with for the next ten years.

WF has a neat epoxy coil that everyone should use I wonder what their coil failure rate is?

And here's another 2 cents: by trying to make these things more efficient, they have made the coils so thin that they fail much more than they used to. I wonder how many of you people complaining about your air conditioner vote for environmental wackos who legislate this junk. How can leaking coils be more efficient?? The cure is worse than the disease.

[Bergy]

Thank you, Bergy, for explaining the the strange "Paradise" reference. Except it isn't Paradise, it's Enertech! That must be the company in Canada that replaced the leaky coils!? Is it just me, or is this all rather confusing?

Ok, if I am sifting through all the information correctly, I think our systems are indeed Waterfurnace, by default. That's what the two local dealers thought, too. But it sounds like the warranty does not vest with WF, but with Paradise, which is now Enertech? Enertech is in Canada (?) so they may have different manufacturing and consumer standards? Just wondering, since I do not live in Canada, but in the USA. The inside sticker on our units still say "Indiana."

It further seems that the installing dealer, who never asked us anything about any extended warranties, could have bought a longer-than-one-year warranty, but didn't. The Paradise (now "Enertech") warranty could have been upgraded with another company called Equigard. At least, I think this is right. Like I said, this is all pretty confusing for me. We now have two more new new names, Enertech and Equigard, in addition to Paradise. I wonder what the next name that pops up will be? One thing is for sure, our two systems have a pedigree with more names than Secretariat had in his pedigree. Ha!

Williamsburg;

Enertech contracted with WFI to produce equipment for them. Enertech sold them under the names "GeoComfort" and "Paradise". They were exactly the same as a Water Furnace unit, only the name had been changed. This is standard industry practice. At the time, WFI's warranty was 1 yr parts and 5 yrs compressor so that is the same warranty Enertech used. All of Enertech's dealers and, as far as I know, all of WFI's dealers could offer an extended warranty through "Equiguard". Equiguard is well know for extended warranties on all kinds of home equipment, Ground Source Heat Pumps among them. We offered 5 yr parts AND labor contracts as well as 10 yr parts AND labor contracts to our customers. I know it can be confusing... You may want to contact Enertech with your Model and Serial numbers just to verify it is one of their units and what the warranty is.

Enertech MFG. no longer works with WFI because they now manufacture their own units under the name "Hydron Module" and "GeoComfort". Their web site is...
www.enertechmfg.com or www.geocomfort.com.

Hope this helps

Bergy

[ChaseAir]

What criteria did you base your decision to go with the installing contractor on?

did you want the best product, the best service, or the lowest price? You can't have all three you know?

Waterfurnace is just a manufacturer, your contractor let you down. Whyy did you trust him again? Did he have written guarantees and good references? How can you be upset at Waterfurnace when you made the decision to go with a guy who doesn't cover a labor warranty?

What did your contract with him say? Is he really telling you he won't fix it if he had in writing that he would?

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

The refrigerant allowance, included in the warranty purchased with your WaterFurnace equipment, is in addition to the labor allowance provided to the contractor. When a contractor files a claim on a refrigerant component, the contractor receives $11.00 for each ton; therefore, if you have a refrigerant claim on your 5 ton unit, your contractor would receive a $55.00 credit.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

Chase Air,

We are continually looking for ways to improve the quality of our products. As of March 1, 2010, we announced the release of our new coil coating method, FormiShieldPlus. All coils with FormiShieldPlus are double coated and more durable over a wider range of corrosive agents. WaterFurnace is the only company in the HVAC industry to use this process, and it is an immense quality improvement over other coil protection methods. All residential products shipped after March 1, 2010 will come standard with FormiShieldPlus.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[ChaseAir]

That double epoxy coating sounds nice. Do you know what your failure rate on coils is?

The Goodman//Amana brand last year had over 7% failure in the first year. This is my own unscientific estimate. I believe it may be more. We installed no more than 100 of their units last year and I need both hands to count the failures.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the reason they fail is formicary corrosion, thin copper (to achieve the wonderful efficiency rating) that is rifled on the inside easily creating small holes.

In effect the mandate for efficiency has created a weak spot in the unit evaporator coil making them fail a whole lot more..................

Isn't govt regulation wonderful?:payattention:

[FL_green_home]

WF Inc,

My installer is here today replacing the coils. How can I verify that the replacement coils have the FormiSheildPlus coating. I just asked him if they did and he said "I don't know."

[WF_Inc]

Bergy,

The explanation you provided is correct. However, EnerTech did not take over the Paradise line until March 14, 2005. Before that time, Paradise equipment was controlled by other OEM customers and distributors. Williamsburg’s Paradise equipment was shipped to an OEM distributor prior to EnerTech.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

We have verified that the order placed for your replacement coils specified that they must be FormiShieldPlus. Please find images attached showing the location of the FormiShieldPlus stamp on the coils.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

Thank you WF Inc for your quick responses. The installer is in the process of replacing the coils now. I also verified that they will be shipping the leaking coils back to WF for inspection.

[Williamsburg]

Waterfurnace,

Ok, so I think I understand now. Bergy explained it in simple terms, that I could understand. (Thanks again, Bergy.)

It's like my old Dodge Colt. My car was actually a Mitsubishi Mirage with a Dodge Colt sticker. If you opened the hood, it said "Mitsubishi made in Japan" and had Japanese characters in the label. If you looked at the name on the outside it said "Dodge Colt" and it was imported by Chrysler, so it was called a Dodge Colt, and Dodge provided the warranties and Dealer maintenance, not Mistubishi. If you stood a Mirage and a Colt side-by-side, you could not tell the difference, but officially one was a "Dodge" and one was a "Mitsubishi."

No wonder both local HVAC people said our units were "Waterfurnace." Our units were manufactured by WF, but sold by a different company--under the Paradise name. You say tomato and I say Tomoto. It's not a Mitsubishi, it's a Dodge. I think I finally understand. WF-made equipment, but because it does not have the official WF label and license and was sold by a different supplier, it comes without the WF official name, warranty or support system. It is Paradise...only there is no more Paradise.

OK, so that is part of the bad news. The other the bad news is that original installer, who contracted with our builder and not directly with us, no longer has anything to do with Paradise or the succeeding Enertech. (I believe the installer told me they now sell a brand called Florida Heat Pump, or something like that...not sure. They seemed to like that brand a great deal.)

The original installer installed the replacement coils. After one year if those fail, it sounds like we are back in the weeds. Our new local HVAC company/WF dealer could not give us a better replacement warranty (1 year) and would have charged us more to replace the coils, so we went back to the original installer for the repairs.

On the up side, our equipment was born in a WF factory, and you say your equipment is superior, so maybe the only thing that should keep me up at night (at least for now) is the potential for the air coils to fail again in the next few years. Our new maintenance contract is with a WF dealer, so they will know this Paradise equipment, and will be able to maintain it properly. Other than the coils, and some air in the lines the first spring after we moved in, the system has been very good.

Waterfurnace, let me ask you a couple of questions, if I may. Since we are now a Paradise owner without any warranties to speak of or even an original dealer to go back to, even if you do test the coils and you do confirm that they are leaking and/or that they have the manufacturing defect that my husband, the installer, and the WF Dealer suspect they do, what good will it do? I mean, what happens next? The point of shipping them back to you was to show you what went wrong, so your engineers could fix the design. You do not claim them as yours. Paradise is a ghost. Does the ghost care? Do you care?

If our current replacement coils fail again, and I really fear that they may, is there a WF epoxy-coated coil that would fit into our current system? Like a "Mitsubishi Mirage" part in my "Dodge Colt" would have fit? If not, my husband says that if the coils fail again, he wants to tear both systems out and start over with new, different systems, and a new local HVAC company. He is an engineer. That does not reflect well on your industry as a whole. We SHOULD NOT be to that point, at this point. I now wish we had just installed super high efficiency gas systems. They cost a bit more to run, but they last for decades. My husband was the GT true believer, not me. He still says the GT thing is a good idea, and can and should work better than the gas systems. I'm not convinced now. It sounds like a lot of coils leak, if the people posting on this forum are to be believed. FL Gree Home has official WF coils that are leaking, I believe. Leaking coils appear to be an issue--at least, it looks that way to me.

For us this is not about blame or reimbursement or I told you so. We just want the darn coils to work for longer than a few years, especially when we paid big upfront costs in order to save money over the long run. No one can save money if they are shelling out for big repairs every few years.

Respectfully,
Williamsburg (Having wandered out of the maze only to now be wandering in the desert)

[FL_green_home]

Installers have been here for almost 7 hours... they ran out of refrigerant and had to leave, go across town, and come back again. Now they are telling me that the plastic drain pan on my 5 ton unit is cracked and will have to be replaced before that unit can be operational. The pan wasn't leaking before they started replacing the coils so I assume it must have cracked when they removed the old coil. They said that they would not charge me for it but that they will have to order a replacement pan and didn't know how many days it would take to get here.

Sure am glad I have the 10-year "Worry Free" warranty. :rolleyes:

[ChaseAir]

Be thankful it is not 95 degrees out. Sorry, I always want to say things like that to my clients and can't. It just feels good.

[WF_Inc]

ChaseAir,

You are correct. The majority of air coil leaks experienced in the HVAC industry today are the result of Formicary Corrosion. WaterFurnace has been a leader in assisting our customers to resolve this issue. The FormiShield failure rate across the country has been very low on an annual basis, but we are constantly striving for improvement and as of March 1, 2010 have converted to the Plus for added protection and durability.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

Williamsburg,

You are correct. In our previous post we discussed coils leaking due to Formicary Corrosion. This is an industry wide issue, and WaterFurnace is constantly striving for improvement in protection and durability.

By testing the coils, we can determine the cause of failure and provide you with information to prevent future failures. If the coils happen to fail again, we can work with our vendors to make replacement coils available with the additional protective coating. If you choose to replace your equipment, we would be more than happy to work with you and your contractor.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Popoff]

Forgive me for being off topic here but I can't find the appropriate place to post this. I hope one of the more experienced people here will take pity and help me out.

When I try to access a pdf on this forum, such as in post 51 above, I get the message that follows.

"Popoff, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation."

I would be most appreciative if someone could tell me how to fix this or get in touch with a moderator to ask for their assistance.

BTW, I bit the bullet and signed the contract for my Envision system so Water Furnace, as your newest customer, when do I get my drum roll and ball cap? (-:

[WF_Inc]

Popoff,

We would suggest taking advantage of the 30% federal tax credit. Also, check with your state government, local government, and utility company for any tax credits or rebates they may be offering. Please send us your address so that we can send you a ball cap.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Popoff]

Thanks WF! The tax credits (fed & state) are what's making this purchase possible.

I want to take you up on your ball cap offer. Is there an address, other than this public forum, to where I can send my name and address?

[WF_Inc]

Popoff,

Please visit our website, www.waterfurnace.com (http://www.waterfurnace.com), and click on “Contact Us” at the top right corner. Under “Email Us,” choose the option stating that you own WaterFurnace equipment. Once you choose “Submit,” we will receive an email with your information.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

FL green home,

We have received your coils back for testing. Once we have received the test results, we will contact you directly to review those.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[FL_green_home]

Thank you WF Inc. I will be most interested to know what caused the failure.

[jdh]

WF Inc

I don't want to hijack this thread, but it seems that Formicary Corrosion came into heavy concern about what, 6-7 years ago.

Do you think that there is a greater problem in the so-called "Chinese Drywall " regions, more so then the rest of the country?

Or do you think that normal common household chemical and sulfur water areas are still a major concern?

If so, is it safe to say, that the problem is from the exterior through the copper pipe or joints? ( In your research? )

Nice to see that WaterFurnace is trying to help with this problem ( with coating the coils) and with this customer.

Thanks Jack

[WF_Inc]

jdh,

Formicary Corrosion is caused by contaminants in the air that collect on the coil. During the cooling cycle, condensation forms on the indoor coils. When the contaminants are exposed to the moisture they turn into acids. The progression of the corrosion is from the exterior of the tube inward, eating away at the copper, until penetration occurs and a leak results.

Any time there is a coil failure, whether it is due to Formicary Corrosion or not, it is of major concern to WaterFurnace. Unfortunately, at this time we cannot accurately answer your question as to where the greatest concern lies, since we do not have enough tangible information. WaterFurnace, as well as other manufacturers, is highly concerned with failures caused by Formicary Corrosion. Please be reassured that we are continuously striving for improvement and protection against this industry wide issue.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Timinmd1]

Greetings All!

I'm new to this discussion board, but have found it very informative.

From what I've read, there seem to be issues with both of the major brands of geothermal systems: FHP and WaterFurnace. As I have NO experience with any geothermal system, I was wondering if anyone would please enlighten me as to the 'true' reliability of the different geothermal manufacturers. I realize a good installer is key, but that aside - a good installer can't compensate for a defective design [as we've witnessed here]. In other worlds, who right now has the most reliable design [I'm not looking to go cheap on the units cost]. Quality over cost.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/images/smilies/anyone.gif
Any insights would be appreciated.

Tim

[WF_Inc]

Timinmd1,

We are unsure of what you are referring to when you say “defective design.” Please be more specific so that we may address your concern.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Timinmd1]

I was referring to the leaking in the water coils as already discussed at length in this thread [yesterday, I did speak with a Water Furnace Salesman and he said they coils were now being double coated].

Also, why is there only a 1 year labor, 5 year parts, 10 year compressor warranty on these units? Most other manufacturer of furnaces/heat pumps/AC units are offering 10 years parts and labor [Trane, Carrier,...etc]. These are NOT inexpensive units and the technology inside them is not significantly different from traditional systems. It's not a great selling point for these units. Any reasons for this?

Thank you for your time,

Tim Mical

[WF_Inc]

Timinmd1,

Yes, our coils are now double-dipped using the FormiShieldPlus process; however, please be reassured that Formicary Corrosion is not due to defective design. This is an industry wide issue caused by indoor air quality (contaminants in the air). When these contaminants come in contact with the condensation on the coils, they become corrosive acids.

“Also, why is there only a 1 year labor, 5 year parts, 10 year compressor warranty on these units?”

In reference to the warranty you questioned, this warranty has never been an option WaterFurnace has offered. WaterFurnace units come standard with a 10 year parts and labor allowance warranty. At the time of purchase, the dealer has the option to buy down to other warranties. Please keep in mind that in order to be Energy Star Rated, the unit must be warranted for a minimum of 5 years. The homeowner has the option to buy up or down to another warranty within one year from the date of purchase. Also, please note that some contractors offer warranties apart from the manufacturer’s warranty.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[Kevin O'Neill]

I don't know of any manufacturer offering 10 years parts AND labor as standard. 10 years parts, YES. The labor portion is added by the contractor. It costs extra. Some contractors add that on....some don't.

[WF_Inc]

Mr. O’Neill,

It is a fairly standard practice, in the geothermal and HVAC industry, to offer a labor allowance.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[dc-v tech]

This thread has sold me on WF customer service.

[FL_green_home]

Another HVAC issue has prompted me to update this thread. Both of my original coils were replaced by the original contractor at a out-of-pocket cost of $600. Both units appear to be working fine so far.

This past Saturday I went upstairs to retrieve something from storage (a somewhat rare task... maybe every few weeks) and noticed water dripping from a ceiling AC vent onto the guest bedroom carpet. I went up into the attic and found the condensation line leaking about 1 foot outside the lip of of the emergency drain pan. The pipe is wrapped in black rubber insulation and the water was coming out from a joint in the insulation... so I couldn't really tell exactly where the pipe was fractured. I immediately shut off the unit and began soaking up the water in the attic and below with towels etc. If I had to guess, I would say that it had been leaking only an hour or two.

Upon closer inspection, I noticed that the condensation drain pipe was tightly lashed to the end of one of the threaded rods used to suspend the unit from the attic ceiling. The jagged end of the rod was poking into the insulation and had worn a hole through to the PVC pipe. I couldn't see a hole in the pipe and did not want to remove the insulation before the contractor had a chance to see it.

When the contractor arrived today (Monday), I watched him cut the insulation from the pipe only to reveal that the first section of PVC pipe had come completely out of the first angle joint. The pipe end was stained purple with PVC primer but there was no sign of any glue to be found. So, I'm assuming that somebody forgot to glue the joint and it had been held together by friction alone up until now! All he said was, "I've never seen anything like that."

The contractor proceeded to re-glue the pipe and angle and re-wrap the assembly with insulation. Now comes the good part... he explained what he'd done to fix it and then said, "I'll go write up an invoice for today". I had all I could do to keep my cool and calmly explain that I felt that this was a "workmanship" issue, not a faulty materials issue, and did he not feel that he should warranty his workmanship. To which he replied, "Well, yes, but not the labor for today". I then calmly explained that if I had not found the leak as early as I did that he would be speaking to my insurance adjuster or lawyer instead of me right now. He then agreed that there would be no charge for the less-than-one-hour visit. I only wish my heart rate would have returned to normal in a similar time frame.

My new home is now just over 2 years old so I'm thinking WT.... what else is going to happen?:eek:

[bluke1]

you might want to look at the rest of the joints, if they missed one, they could have missed more.... do it for your piece of mind. look around at the rest of it for obvious problems, hopefully it was just an oversight...

[dave sulz]

We installed a bunch of climatemasters. Now we installed a few waterfurnace. I don't know why the office changed.the evap coil looks the same. The outer box of unit looks simmilar. Are the coils the same?

[bberry]

Just found this subject due to searching for more GT information. I'm searching because I've lost all faith in my WaterFurnce dealer completing a good installation. He has drilled one of four wells in one month. The one well he drilled was grouted but not by grount manufacturer specifications. Dealer blowed smoke up my you know what that it didn't need sand mixed with grout even if package says so! Lines exiting my house are next to window sill instead of down low so they can be hidden by a bush. Sloppy work! Ducts he installed failed independent inspection in all areas. One week later and no one has corrected anything; but he told me twice someone will be out within 24 hrs.

This house is a foam sealed house and the dealer insist on running an open return air system so I must also condition the attic to same temp. as living area. Yes, it is true I will have a conditioned area due to HVAC leakage but I didn't want to condition double the space! How is this going to same any energy?

If this is a vetted dealer for WaterFurnace then I've made a big mistake! I'm currently trying to figure how I can get out of this and find someone else to correct and complete the work. It's been one month and counting since he started and still three more wells to drill that he says will be started in two more weeks.

As far as I'm concerned I have the most dishonest HVAC contractor in Houston, TX. area and maybe the nation.

WaterFurnace how do you select dealers to sell and install your equipment?

[farbeondriven]

Just found this subject due to searching for more GT information. I'm searching because I've lost all faith in my WaterFurnce dealer completing a good installation. He has drilled one of four wells in one month. The one well he drilled was grouted but not by grount manufacturer specifications. Dealer blowed smoke up my you know what that it didn't need sand mixed with grout even if package says so! Lines exiting my house are next to window sill instead of down low so they can be hidden by a bush. Sloppy work! Ducts he installed failed independent inspection in all areas. One week later and no one has corrected anything; but he told me twice someone will be out within 24 hrs.

This house is a foam sealed house and the dealer insist on running an open return air system so I must also condition the attic to same temp. as living area. Yes, it is true I will have a conditioned area due to HVAC leakage but I didn't want to condition double the space! How is this going to same any energy?

If this is a vetted dealer for WaterFurnace then I've made a big mistake! I'm currently trying to figure how I can get out of this and find someone else to correct and complete the work. It's been one month and counting since he started and still three more wells to drill that he says will be started in two more weeks.

As far as I'm concerned I have the most dishonest HVAC contractor in Houston, TX. area and maybe the nation.

WaterFurnace how do you select dealers to sell and install your equipment?
Stop him imediatly then. Did you pay just a deposit thus far? Hopefully u didnt pay him in full yet.

[addfreon]

Timinmd1,

Yes, our coils are now double-dipped using the FormiShieldPlus process; however, please be reassured that Formicary Corrosion is not due to defective design. This is an industry wide issue caused by indoor air quality (contaminants in the air). When these contaminants come in contact with the condensation on the coils, they become corrosive acids.

“Also, why is there only a 1 year labor, 5 year parts, 10 year compressor warranty on these units?”

In reference to the warranty you questioned, this warranty has never been an option WaterFurnace has offered. WaterFurnace units come standard with a 10 year parts and labor allowance warranty. At the time of purchase, the dealer has the option to buy down to other warranties. Please keep in mind that in order to be Energy Star Rated, the unit must be warranted for a minimum of 5 years. The homeowner has the option to buy up or down to another warranty within one year from the date of purchase. Also, please note that some contractors offer warranties apart from the manufacturer’s warranty.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.
I do not believe the problem can be corrected by double dipping anything. "Formicary corrosion" has become the catch all for leaking coils but the real problem is thin wall metal and poor manufacturing.I dont know if WF makes it's evap coils or contracts them out to a third party.I am sure most pros know that slinging refrigerant into systems has been bread and butter of this industry for years.I'm not sure anyone wants a "real solution" to this problem. I work on many systems,some in a corrosive manufacturing enviroment, to homes that could serve as a meth lab. The only factor that seems to make any difference is the coil manufacturer.:nopity:

[bberry]

I've paid the WaterFurnace dealer about 65% of total costs. He has invoiced me for the four wells but I'm not paying that since only one was drilled. Does anyone know if Texas has anyone to inform about how this guy grouted the well? Are there any rules on how wells are drilled and grouted? I fear no matter what I do this guy will have a way to get more money from me and I'll eventually have a non performing WaterFurnace. Maybe I should talk to a lawyer?

Never contract with a WaterFurnace dealer as they let crooks sell their products!!!

[WF_Inc]

bberry,

We will be more than happy to look further into your concerns. Please provide your model number, serial number, and the name of the contractor you are working with.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[texas cooler]

[QUOTE=bberry;8578511] Does anyone know if Texas has anyone to inform about how this guy grouted the well? Are there any rules on how wells are drilled and grouted? [QUOTE]

Texas Dept. of Licensing and Regulation website has all the rules for drilling wells in TX. All drillers must be licensed with a few exceptions...and drilling geothermal wells is not one of them.

[skeller]

Just go with a hydron module. It's stainless steel heat exchanger and cabinet and has THE BEST WARRANTY on the market today guaranteed.

[feotto]

Just thought I'd post this interesting story for additional info on the thread subject....
After going through 4 months of h_ll trying to get my FHP unit functioning reliably due to my contractor using a wrong TXV valve in my unit, I found via my loop installer a company that is considered the premier Geo installer/service in my area, and had them replace the incorrect valve.

I had noticed previously that they were a WF Geopro master dealer, but when they arrived they had a FHP sticker on their service van. I questioned them on this and was told they recently switched BACK to FHP from WF. Reason? The amount of air coil failures was not manageable anymore, and what WF reimburses for warranty repairs is not enough to cover their expenses to diagnose/repair, especially if the delta isn't passed on to the homeowner.

I kind of had a chuckle to myself due to what I've read on this forum.

[ravenjim]

WF Inc
I can't open the jpg. images from post #51 of the stamp location on coil to verify FormiShieldPlus coating. My WF Envision series 38 was installed 12/2009. I believe before they started using this procedure. Where can I locate this stamping on coil?
Thank You, Jim

[WF_Inc]

ravenjim,

We began using the FormiShieldPlus process in March of 2010. We have attached the images showing the location of the FormiShieldPlus stamping on the coil.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[npl44]

Climate Master is a a good quality unit. We installed over 150 of them last year and have had great success.

[ChaseAir]

Well, the new Waterfurnace split systems had their first breakdown 6 months into their "long" life. The same thing that every manufacturer has.....TXV failure. ALCO TXV....which I thought was a good one. Heat TXV in one unit clogged and apparently you need to adjust the other ones, because they are not keeping proper Superheat in cool. These stupid devices are supposed to make it more efficient, it seems they rarely work well.:gah:

[Kevin O'Neill]

Well, the new Waterfurnace split systems had their first breakdown 6 months into their "long" life. The same thing that every manufacturer has.....TXV failure. ALCO TXV....which I thought was a good one. Heat TXV in one unit clogged and apparently you need to adjust the other ones, because they are not keeping proper Superheat in cool. These stupid devices are supposed to make it more efficient, it seems they rarely work well.:gah:

Most TXVs used to be reliable and accurate, but not any more. First Parker purchased Sporlan. Then the government decreed that 13 SEER was the minimum efficiency. Now, almost every one is using TXVs to boost efficiency. And I never did think much of Parker. And Sporlan, who made the the most and best TXVs has been Parkerized. :gah::censored:

[mstrblstr3]

I've installed dozens of these units with no call back or issues.
Sounds like an installation error. I feel horrible for customers who trust their
fly by night geo contractor who probably only got into the business due to the tax incentives:gah:

[Bill Lee]

ChaseAir,

If the heat mode TXV "clogged" then it sounds like the installers took short cuts in their brazing process of installing the split systems. If nitrogen is not purged through the lines and indoor coils when the connections are being brazed, then copper oxide (a black scale) will form on the inside of the tubing. This oxide, if not trapped in the liquid line biflow filter drier can cause operational problems with not only the TXV's but also the reversing valve--a much more costly repair!!

Geothermal systems are not the only systems that this happens in, air-to-air systems and straight air conditioning systems will suffer if nitrogen is not purged during brazing. Nitrogen needs to be purged anytime there is any brazing on the system.

[cactusjack]

ChaseAir,

If the heat mode TXV "clogged" then it sounds like the installers took short cuts in their brazing process of installing the split systems. If nitrogen is not purged through the lines and indoor coils when the connections are being brazed, then copper oxide (a black scale) will form on the inside of the tubing. This oxide, if not trapped in the liquid line biflow filter drier can cause operational problems with not only the TXV's but also the reversing valve--a much more costly repair!!

Geothermal systems are not the only systems that this happens in, air-to-air systems and straight air conditioning systems will suffer if nitrogen is not purged during brazing. Nitrogen needs to be purged anytime there is any brazing on the system.

Maybe the manufacturers should listen to this also when they assemble these systems at the factory. :whistle:

[Williamsburg]

The coils on the downstairs unit have failed, once again. (I have attempted to quote the original post with this message.) If it does not work, search on my messages posted by Williamsburg from last year.

My husband and the current HVAC company want to yank out both geothermal systems and send them to the dump, even though they are about 6 years old. Talk about a waste of money and anguish...

Has anyone had any experience with Climatemaster residential systems?

My vote is to forget geothermal and install high-efficiency conventional systems. They seem to go forever.

Williamsburg
(Who thinks geothermal is for the birds)

[skeller]

Every time that I've seem a heatexchanger on a Geo go out is because the loop is not done correctly. I would be more than happy to help any way. My email is kellerhvac@gmail.com. Do you know how the loops are laid out or anything like that? And climatemaster is a good unit by the way. Not what I sell, but a good unit never the less.

[dship]

WF Inc,

I am a homeowner with a GT unit just over 4 years old. Model:NDV064a111ctr
S/N xe3205. The installer, JK Mechanical (Willow Street, PA) has just informed me that my coil needs replacing and will cost about $1100. This makes at least 5 times in over 4 years that I have had faulty parts replaced or had the installer out to correct faults in the system.
In the Waterfurnace literature, your company seems to pride itself on reliability, a comprehensive warranty, and a "worry-free" experience. My experience with your product has been different. Judging from the contents of this thread, Waterfurnace has issues regarding the coils in its units and I am now facing a hefty repair bill to replace what seems to be a common problem with your product.
Your company should be receiving a call from the service manager at my installer this afternoon. I am requesting that you do the right thing, and cover this repair bill in its entirety.
Thanks for participating in this forum and giving us an opportunity to communicate with Waterfurnace directly.

[ChaseAir]

I was told wf coils have an 80% failure rate in Florida. It is many times caused by formicary corrosion. Loops do not cause coil failure. Get the tin plated version..demand it.

[Williamsburg]

We had Bud's Heating remove both units a couple of weeks ago. There were Paradise units, which I understand were made in a Water Furnace plant. They were about 6 years old, and cost us $30,000.

The new units are Climatemaster and have a 10 year warranty. They also cost us $30,000. Our HVAC geothermal has now cost us over $60,000. I asked Buds to return the defective units to Extreme Climates, the people who installed the Paradise units for our builder about 6 years ago. I hope they did indeed take them back to EC. Bud's specifically recommended Climatemaster for the replacement, and not WF.

The Federal Government is giving out tax credits to encourage people to install geothermal, yet no one is tracking the failure rates. I think I will be contacting my congressman to let him know about our personal experiences.

[farbeondriven]

We had Bud's Heating remove both units a couple of weeks ago. There were Paradise units, which I understand were made in a Water Furnace plant. They were about 6 years old, and cost us $30,000.

The new units are Climatemaster and have a 10 year warranty. They also cost us $30,000. Our HVAC geothermal has now cost us over $60,000. I asked Buds to return the defective units to Extreme Climates, the people who installed the Paradise units for our builder about 6 years ago. I hope they did indeed take them back to EC. Bud's specifically recommended Climatemaster for the replacement, and not WF.

The Federal Government is giving out tax credits to encourage people to install geothermal, yet no one is tracking the failure rates. I think I will be contacting my congressman to let him know about our personal experiences.

You should be happy with CM......30,000 seems like an awful lot to just replace the units or did you have earth loop work done also?

[ChaseAir]

We removed 3 geothermals today...the 1985 models outlived the 1995 model by more than ten years....the 1995 had been dead for awhile....leaking water coils with open loop system.
Old style lasted 25 yrs. New style lasted 10-15....both brands were fhp(bosch)

[Williamsburg]

You should be happy with CM......30,000 seems like an awful lot to just replace the units or did you have earth loop work done also?

No loops--they were installed by Toano Well and are good. Just an upstairs and a downstairs unit.

[WF_Inc]

dship,

The majority of air coil leaks are the result of an industry wide issue called Formicary Corrosion, which is caused by indoor air quality. Carrier performed a study of Formicary Corrosion, which we have attached for your review.

As a leader in the industry, we started coating our coils, to assist customers in fighting Formicary Corrosion in 2001. We were the first manufacturer to offer this new technology. As of March 1, 2010, we began using the FormiShieldPlus coating process in an effort to prevent Formicary Corrosion. All coils with the FormiShieldPlus are double coated and more durable over a wider range of corrosive agents. WaterFurnace is one of the first manufacturers in the industry to use this process and we feel that it will protect against Formicary Corrosion and prolong the life of the coils.

As for your warranty, the labor allowance for all repairs to our units is a set flat fee. We use industry accepted flat rate times and an average hourly rate for all repairs. The rate we pay does not vary from one contractor to the next. If the amount provided does not cover the contractor’s normal fee, or if it takes longer on a particular repair than the flat fee allows, the contractor makes the decision about whether or not they will pass through the cost to the consumer. The contractor is an independent business man and not under our control. We regularly check our warranty allowance with those of our competitors and find that we consistently cover more items for longer periods and at more generous rates than our competition.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[ChaseAir]

I thought formicary corrosion was caused by manufacturers using copper and aluminum coils when they knew the very well the type of environment the coils would be in.

You know I'm just a layman here, but if you used aluminum coils, you wpuld not have this problem. By the way, tin plating does not solve the problem either.

So, you can make a coil that is indestructible. Yet you continue to use an inferior one, that is cutting edge.

The nice thing about coil failure is that it destroys other components.

Waterfurnace in North Florida does not pay their warranty. We had this experience.

I will never install them again.

[farbeondriven]

Ive noticed that climate master has the all aluminum air coil.....they used to have one that was coated.....was that the tin coating? Was all black

formicary corrosion? is that fancy words for volitile organic compounds? or V.O.C.'s

[ChaseAir]

The coated coils are epoxy coated.

Tin plated has the look of aluminum on the back of the coil. Carrier STILL has premature cool failure with the tinplating process.

Aluminum seems to be the indestructible coil. Can anyone else witness to this? I have never seen one leak in 10 yrs. I know people who have been in the trade 30 yrs and never seen one leak yet.

If I hear one more manufacturer rep blame "formicary corrosion" for their failure to use a coil that is not susceptible to this type of corrosion, I may hurl.

[dship]

WFInc,

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I find it to be disappointing and insufficient. Whatever the reason for WaterFurnace's coil failure problems, my experience (and the end result) is that your company has manufactured an unreliable HVAC unit. Two blower motors, a cracked and leaking drain pan, and now a coil have all failed in just over four years. However, it is your response to the coil issue that I find most troubling. Whether the issue is blamed on formicary corrosion due to the "air quality" in consumers' homes, poor manufacturing techniques, inadequate coatings, or just plain substandard copper, the fact remains that coil failure in a four year old unit is not normal wear and tear.
In my job as an airline pilot, I fly with different crewmembers almost every time I work. We have hours to just talk about everything under the sun, and our experiences with cars, families, schools, and HOUSES are frequent topics of conversation. In the past, I have always extolled the virtues of geothermal HVAC because of the many benefits it offers. I will continue to do so, but will now have to recommend against purchasing a WaterFurnace unit.
It is unfortunate that WaterFurnace has elected to go with the CYA approach and lose at least my future recommendations. Thankfully, my installer has agreed to take up your slack and cover the repair bill. Was it worth it?

[Williamsburg]

WFInc,

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I find it to be disappointing and insufficient. Whatever the reason for WaterFurnace's coil failure problems, my experience (and the end result) is that your company has manufactured an unreliable HVAC unit. Two blower motors, a cracked and leaking drain pan, and now a coil have all failed in just over four years. However, it is your response to the coil issue that I find most troubling. Whether the issue is blamed on formicary corrosion due to the "air quality" in consumers' homes, poor manufacturing techniques, inadequate coatings, or just plain substandard copper, the fact remains that coil failure in a four year old unit is not normal wear and tear.
In my job as an airline pilot, I fly with different crewmembers almost every time I work. We have hours to just talk about everything under the sun, and our experiences with cars, families, schools, and HOUSES are frequent topics of conversation. In the past, I have always extolled the virtues of geothermal HVAC because of the many benefits it offers. I will continue to do so, but will now have to recommend against purchasing a WaterFurnace unit.
It is unfortunate that WaterFurnace has elected to go with the CYA approach and lose at least my future recommendations. Thankfully, my installer has agreed to take up your slack and cover the repair bill. Was it worth it?
My husband also read the report on coil failures, epecially since we had repeated coil failures and just replaced two six year old systems for $30,000, not counting the thousands we spent to replace the coils last year. We replaced Paradise with Climatemaster.

My husband is a professor of Aerospace Engineering/Mechanical Engineering. His students work all over the world for major employers, including the Air Force, Navy, Army, and NASA.

I asked him what he thought about the coil failure report. He said in his opinion, it was a lame excuse--said the coils should be manufactured to withstand the residential environmental factors since that is where the systems are installed. He said if that were not possible, then every refrigerator in America would fail, since the coils on the fridge serve the same purpose. My fridge is over 15 years old, and still going strong.

But then again, that's only his opinion...

[WF_Inc]

ChaseAir,

We believe you may be confusing Formicary Corrosion with Galvanic Corrosion. Galvanic Corrosion is when a galvanic current is produced by dissimilar metals. Formicary corrosion is caused by organic acids in contact with air and water, and is also much more aggressive.

Some manufacturers have used aluminum coils, and these coils have failed. We have been testing coils for years in order to find something that will prevent Formicary Corrosion. We are confident that our new coating process will prolong the life of our air coils. We continue to test other methods, just as other manufacturers are doing the same.

In regards to the indestructible coil you referenced, we would be interested to know what you are referring to, as we would rather not pay warranty dollars to replace these air coils. We continue to cover these coils under warranty, unlike other manufacturers.

In your post you stated that WaterFurnace does not pay their warranty in North Florida. Could you please be more specific? We are not aware of any claims that have been denied in North Florida.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

dship,

We are sorry to hear that you feel this way and appreciate your position. WaterFurnace has been very forthcoming with our stance on Formicary Corrosion. This is an industry wide issue and is not a manufacturing defect; however, because we want to assist our customers, we have continued to cover these air coils under warranty. At this point, we have provided the replacement coil at no charge, as well as a labor allowance to your contractor per the terms and conditions of our published warranty. As you said your contractor did not charge you above and beyond the labor allowance. At this point, we are unsure how we can assist you further.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[SparkyTheTermite]

dship,

We are sorry to hear that you feel this way and appreciate your position. WaterFurnace has been very forthcoming with our stance on Formicary Corrosion. This is an industry wide issue and is not a manufacturing defect; however, because we want to assist our customers, we have continued to cover these air coils under warranty. At this point, we have provided the replacement coil at no charge, as well as a labor allowance to your contractor per the terms and conditions of our published warranty. As you said your contractor did not charge you above and beyond the labor allowance. At this point, we are unsure how we can assist you further.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

I must say that the WF warranty has been awesome and I have not had to pay a dime for my repairs. That being said, I am on my 6th coil in 8 years and the only problem has been, is being without a/c or heat until our contractor can get the parts to repair, which has been up to 3 weeks. I must say again WF has stood up to the plate and has done what is right. My question is this, what do I do when the warranty is up in 2 years if the coils continue to go bad. I can in no way afford $1500.00/year repairs.

[ChaseAir]

I must say that the WF warranty has been awesome and I have not had to pay a dime for my repairs. That being said, I am on my 6th coil in 8 years and the only problem has been, is being without a/c or heat until our contractor can get the parts to repair, which has been up to 3 weeks. I must say again WF has stood up to the plate and has done what is right. My question is this, what do I do when the warranty is up in 2 years if the coils continue to go bad. I can in no way afford $1500.00/year repairs.

Just replaced 2 waterfurnace coils, 2 txvs, and a main circuit board...envision split systems. Slow parts delivery, seems like they attempt to avoid actually paying the labor warranty. Coils, coils coils. Our former distributor told me....take it for what It's worth....that wf in his experience = 80% coil failure in Florida. Oh the two systems I fixed today were 2009. It's going to be a long ten years.

[Six]

Over the years I haven't experienced a comparable failure rate on indoor or out door coils in a strictly commercial settings.

I have several accounts with large chilled water coils and DX coils that are subjected to a variety of chemicals that would, according to the Carrier pdf cause formicary corrosion and a eventual failure of the either chill water or DX copper tubes.

Some of these locations seem to constantly have new spaces being torn down and built back up with every manner of trade inducing their trade specific pollutants back into the common plenum return.

Add to that cleaning crews who throughout the day use products that according to the pdf file could contribute to premature tube failure. Some of these Dx and Chill water coils are going on 30 years of use old and then some. Throughout these spaces there are typically isolated DX splits installed for computer rooms, conference areas or any space that requires 24/7 cooling.

It's just not happening. I'm not nor have ever experienced a disproportionate amount of indoor coil refrigerant leaks. The overwhelming majority of leaks are caused by vibration, not by VOMs.

For two years I worked in the Petro-Chemical plants on process equipment and can't imagine a more destructive environment in terms of air pollution.

Sure some coils on the larger air cooled equipment were coated but your average comfort cooling install was a typical out of the box application and I don't remember a rash of coil failures,

[WF_Inc]

SparkyTheTermite,

We are sorry to hear that you have experienced issues with your WaterFurnace equipment. Could you please provide your model and serial numbers so we may look into your inquiry further? If you do not wish to post this information publicly, please feel free to send us a private message.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

[WF_Inc]

ChaseAir,

Unfortunately, the information you have provided is very vague. Warranty claims are processed and shipped the same day they are received. In regards to your comments about not receiving a labor allowance, as previously stated, we would be very interested to have more information about this. If you will provide more specific information, we will be more than happy to look into your inquiry further. Please feel free to send us a private message if you do not wish to post this information publicly.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.