system replacement options?

[beejaydee]

I'll try to keep this as brief as I can. 50's rancher on slab, with underground ducts. Ducts are rotted out, so I need to replace my heating/cooling system. The house is poorly insulated, so it's drafty through the walls. Is there anything you experts would recommend over replacing my downdraft furnace and having attic ductwork installed? If I'm going to go that level of expense, is there a better alternative that would be better suited to this house than forced air? I hope someone can steer me in the right direction, because I'm flat-out baffled. Thanks!

[simplyrollin]

Start getting estimates and recommendations from contractors. Attic installation may be your only real option at this point.:couchhide:

[wisconsinapp]

Attic install is probaby going to be your best bet. The only other possibility would be having electric baseboards put in, but in all honesty, probably not the brightest idea. If you do go with the attic install, make sure its somebody that is going to do a good job. Chances are its going to be a little pricey to begin with, so if you have to spend a few extra bucks for someone reputable, I would definately go for that. And if the furnace is going to be placed in the attic, make sure they put a drain pan under the furnace, and make sure the quoted price includes insulating the ducts.

[sammy37]

Attic install is probaby going to be your best bet. The only other possibility would be having electric baseboards put in, but in all honesty, probably not the brightest idea. If you do go with the attic install, make sure its somebody that is going to do a good job. Chances are its going to be a little pricey to begin with, so if you have to spend a few extra bucks for someone reputable, I would definately go for that. And if the furnace is going to be placed in the attic, make sure they put a drain pan under the furnace, and make sure the quoted price includes insulating the ducts.

Sounds like the furnace is in a closet blowing downdraft now.
There is no reason why the furnace has to be installed in the attic. You can have ductwork installed in the attic and a new furnace installed in the same closet, or whatever area that it is in at the moment, providing there is enough clearence above the unit to have a supply and return plenum installed.

[beejaydee]

Thanks for the help, all. Yes, Sammy37, the current furnace is in a small enclosed area in the rear of the kitchen. It's going to be tight getting the return and supply ducts needed in that cramped space, but it seems like the all-around safer bet. I could just be paranoid, but the attic installation seems to be riskier, with a lot less room for error. So far, the bid I got from the first contractor for the attic installation was over xxxxx, and the bid from contractor #2 for keeping the furnace in the house was around xxxxx - there was no manual J involved from either contractor. Should I request this?

The house is only about 1000 sf, and though I've replaced all the windows and reframed several rooms to add wall insulation, the place is still drafty as hell.

[quickcat46]

The house is only about 1000 sf, and though I've replaced all the windows and reframed several rooms to add wall insulation, the place is still drafty as hell.

If you spend the time to seal the windows and doors reinsulate ceiling and in general fix your home envelop it will pay off in lower enegy bills. Now would be the time to spend the time to fix the envelop. You house may be only 1000 sq ft but if your trying to heat or cool all the outdoors you may need to upsize your equipment.

[sammy37]

Thanks for the help, all. Yes, Sammy37, the current furnace is in a small enclosed area in the rear of the kitchen. It's going to be tight getting the return and supply ducts needed in that cramped space, but it seems like the all-around safer bet. I could just be paranoid, but the attic installation seems to be riskier, with a lot less room for error. So far, the bid I got from the first contractor for the attic installation was over $8500, and the bid from contractor #2 for keeping the furnace in the house was around $6700 - there was no manual J involved from either contractor. Should I request this?

The house is only about 1000 sf, and though I've replaced all the windows and reframed several rooms to add wall insulation, the place is still drafty as hell.

Yes, you really need to get a manual J so you know where your at with this and like quickcat46 said, you really need to work on getting that place sealed up alittle bit.
By the way, please eliminate the pricing out of your post, it is not allowed to be displayed here.
As far as the furnace goes, I would always prefer to have it in the house but if it works out better, it would be fine to have it in the attic. The biggest disadvantage to an attic install, is that you could not use a furnace that was over 80% efficient due to drain freezing reasons.

[wisconsinapp]

Thanks for the help, all. Yes, Sammy37, the current furnace is in a small enclosed area in the rear of the kitchen. It's going to be tight getting the return and supply ducts needed in that cramped space, but it seems like the all-around safer bet. I could just be paranoid, but the attic installation seems to be riskier, with a lot less room for error. So far, the bid I got from the first contractor for the attic installation was over $8500, and the bid from contractor #2 for keeping the furnace in the house was around $6700 - there was no manual J involved from either contractor. Should I request this?

The house is only about 1000 sf, and though I've replaced all the windows and reframed several rooms to add wall insulation, the place is still drafty as hell.

If you have the money right now, depending on the age of the furnace, and if you plan on staying in the house for a while, I would consider changing out the furnace right away. It would probably be cheaper to do it now, and if you say it is in a closet and is going to be tight to get both in there, it will probably be a royal pain to change it out after you have the ductwork re-done. If the furnace is only a few years old, then leave it in.

[dan sw fl]

Yes, you really need to get a manual J so you know where your at with this and like quickcat46 said, you really need to work on getting that place sealed up a little bit.
.
Seal the place up, THEN

Blower door test for a 50's / "half modernized " house THEN

Manual J.


Analysis would be reasonably accurate for one who takes care in detemining your actual building envelope characteristics.

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/energy_audits/index.cfm/mytopic=11190

[beejaydee]

Really appreciate the advice, everyone! Sorry about having included the bid info - it's removed from my original post now. I'm limited as to how much I can tighten the place right now; I have one room that still needs to be reframed (but is too full of stuff to do the job), and the bathroom is your standard 50's tile over cement half-wall, with no insulation behind it, and brick exterior. So, it's sadly about as tight as I can get it for now. Windows are all new. The first contractor wanted to up the furnace to 100K BTU's, which - from what I've read - is way too big for a place this size. (Current one is 75K) He said it would heat the place quicker, but wouldn't that just cause it to cycle on and off too much? I don't want to over-think this, but if I'm going to do it, I'd sure like to do it right. Thanks again for all your help!

[beenthere]

Yep, you'd have lots of short cycles.

Keep looking for a good contractor.

[dan sw fl]

Really appreciate the advice, everyone!

I'm limited as to how much I can tighten the place right now; I have one room that still needs to be reframed (but is too full of stuff to do the job), and the bathroom is your standard 50's tile over cement half-wall, with no insulation behind it, and brick exterior. So, it's sadly about as tight as I can get it for now.

.... - from what I've read - is way too big for a place this size.
(Current one is 75K) He said it would heat the place quicker, but wouldn't that just cause it to cycle on and off too much?

I don't want to over-think this, but if I'm going to do it, I'd sure like to do it right. Thanks again for all your help!

Your heating requirement may be closer to 45,000 than 75,000 BTU/HR
[ Is your Nat Gas heating ~ $1,030 for the 6 cold months ? ]
http://www.hvacopcost.com

Reducing leakage can be put in perspective with the following calculation:
GUESSING 0.8 A.C.H. as existing leakage ( maybe less with new windows)

1000 ________ Square Feet
8 ________ Height
8,000 ________ Cubic Feet
0.8 ________ ACH - actual or WORST CASE
6,400 ________ Cubic Feet /Hour
________

106.7 ________ CFM LEAKAGE AT SPECIFIED ACH
________
70 ________ T in
10 ________ T Out Minimum
60 ________ dT Design
________
6,400 ________ BTU/Hr
Philly ________ City _______ 2008 __ 2009 __ www.wunderground.com
___________ ______________ H.D.D. Temp
46 ________ Average Temp NOV 553 50
36 ________ Average Temp DEC 766 38
40 ________ Average Temp JAN 896 31
37 ________ Average Temp FEBR 823 36
45 ________ Average Temp MARCH 608 42
39.75 _______ Average Temp -5 MONTHS 729.20 39.40
________
30.25 ________ Average dT NOV - MARCH ( 70- AVG TEMP)
3,227 ________ BTU/HR
744 ________ HRS/ MONTH
2,400,640 ________ BTU/ MONTH
24.01 ________ THERMS
________
2 ________ Tighten up by factor of 2
0.4 ________ ACH
12.00 ________ THERMS
$1.14 ________ $ / THERM
$13.68 ________ Savings per month
________
$68.42 ________ Savings for 5 months

[beejaydee]

Dan, thanks so much for that great, detailed information! As far as tightening up the house is concerned, I'm limited by not being able to re-frame some walls at the moment, and since they're brick outside with drywall over furring strips on the inside (zero insulation) - the draft is pretty bad. It sounds like the $68.42 in savings over six months isn't that fantastic, considering what it would take me to get there (unless I'm misunderstanding the data).

At this point, I'm trying to determine what a "good" estimate from a contractor should look like. The two I've gotten so far are very generic, with little detail about what will be done. For example, "Run new ductwork in attic for supply and return." One lists an included, "Digital non programmable thermostat." I already have a digital, programmable one!

Seems like a complete crapshoot, trying to find a reputable, professional contractor around here. I really do appreciate all the helpful posts you guys have provided - thanks again!

[quickcat46]

Seems like a complete crapshoot, trying to find a reputable, professional contractor around here. I really do appreciate all the helpful posts you guys have provided - thanks again!

You also may try the local BBB, at least you know that the contractor has business ethics and will stand behind their work. At the very least check the contractor you are choosing out with them, a strong sales presentation is exactly that. A nice show. Trust but verify isn't what Ronald Reagan used to say.

[beejaydee]

That's excellent advice, Quickcat, and I actually did that very thing first (having been a BBB program director in a former life, I always look up companies there before doing business with them). Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be enough these days. The search continues.....

[beejaydee]

Update, and follow-up questions:
Finally had a contractor who took the time to really examine my situation and be thorough. He recommended either a Carrier Infinity 96 or a Trane XR95, 60K BTU models. He was willing to flip the old furnace but said that it wouldn't save me much money, after factoring in the 1500 tax credit for the new furnace.
Question:
If I'm not keeping the house for another 5 years or more, does it make sense to go with the 95% AFUE models, or should I just replace my existing 80% with another one?

Thanks so much for your input, guys!