Topping off a blend with another blend ????

[R12rules]

Have you ever sucessfully used one blend to top off another blend which was already in the system?

[rayr]

C'mon Rules, U know better than that. Either do it right, or don't do it at all.

[Diceman]

yeah I admit on some junky things that needed a small, I repeat small, shot of juice I dumped stuff in em, they are still working.

[James 3528]

I have also sinned.

[freezone]

I have also done it. No complaints.

[bvzung]

yes, I did it too, MP39 over 409 two years later this copland semihermatic still running.

[Diceman]

It ain't our fault that the Mfgs have all come up with 49 different varieties of go juice. Like I am gonna spend $300 on a jug of some junk and put 4 oz in a cooler that really ain't worth overhauling. I would be losing money on jobs like that and we can't have that, can we??
Besides, that crappy jug takes up room in my truck and probably turns into some kinf of toxic waste after sitting for 2 years. Screw that.

[Diceman]

We are all going to hell anyways.

[Freezeking2000]

I have un-intentionally mixed all different blends with r-12 and r-502 with no problems. Not once!

Mostly MP-39 and HP-80 custom blends.

[Diceman]

Unintentional huh? You're still going to hell.

[condenseddave]

Home chemistry at it's finest.:D

[Diceman]

Maybe if we combine all the refrigerants we would have a "super gas" that would work for anyting and cool twice as fast? Who has a lab at their work place?

[cynic]

I've sinned too. Its amazing how something can run sometimes, know of a walk in that has 12,hotshot,mp39 and 409a in it.

[James 3528]

We may have some thing here


R-39409

[bvzung]

So we had only one good guy(Ray) out of seven hacks?

[James 3528]

8

[Diceman]

Ray is full of crap, he needs to repent, perhaps a trip to Father Edward, to hear his confession, is in order. Otherwise he won't be saved, his soul damned to the eternal fires of...........hell.......or in his case, New Jersey, same diff.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by Diceman
Ray is full of crap, he needs to repent, perhaps a trip to Father Edward, to hear his confession, is in order. Otherwise he won't be saved, his soul damned to the eternal fires of...........hell.......or in his case, New Jersey, same diff.

Hell in the summer is nicer than Jersey in the winter.

[Freezeking2000]

At least i will know someone in hell!

I live close enough to NewJersey to drive there in 50 mins.....hmmmm!

Custom gas blends by Hacks......it works fine and saves the customer big$$$$$

[James 3528]

I have some small coolers in my garage and a beer cooler in the bar out back. I think of them as prototypes and test platforms for new refrigerants.


I think it makes you a more rounded and knowledgeable Tech to do this kind of studies and sabbaticals.

Next week I am going to remove the MP39 from the beer cooler, pull a vacuum, drink a couple of Buds and pee in the low side to see if that works.

[R12rules]

We were out on this W-I freezer. Copeland ten horse.

It was meant for R-12. It had been changed over to MP-66.
It was low of charge.
Neither of us had any 66 on the trucks, so it was sugested we use what we both had, which was 409.

We both decided AGAINST it and left the job. One of us returned in the morning with the right gas ... oops, it is NOT the right gas. It is a "wanna-be" gas .... anyway ... we cam eback with MP66 and charged with that stuff.


I had contacted National Refrigerants with the question.

Here is their reply;

Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 08:54:40 -0500




Bob,

You will probably be fine if you added R-409A to an MP66 system. The fact that it is a larger system will cover up the slight differences in properties (if it was a small, self conatined hermetic system you might not get the same operation). In general you will be replacing some of the pressure and capacity of the MP66 with a slightly lower pressure capacity blend (409A). You might see the low side pressure run a few psi lower in order to satisfy the thermostat, or *it might take a few minutes longer run time, but if you are not replacing the majority of the charge you will be OK.

The other aspects of using a blend (fractionation, temperature glide) and the effects on the controls will be the same. Both blends will shift your superheat setting from where it would be with R-12 - but 409A may cause your vavles to hunt a little more. Check the superheat against the vapor side of the chart and you may need to tighten up the spring a little - again depends on how much you substitute.

Chemically speaking you don't have any problems to worry about.

Good luck with it. -- Jim Lavelle, Technical Sales Manager


Mary Anne Murray
National Refrigerants, Inc.
Phone - 800.262.0012
Fax - 215.698.7466

Areas of Interest: Refrigerants
Comments: Can I add R-409 to an exhisting system of MP66 ?
Large built up system, 10 horse copeland/ freezer.

[James 3528]

He probably wanted to tell you to pee in it.

[Yuma]

Originally posted by James 3528
He probably wanted to tell you to pee in it.
How, would you charge it in?
In vapor or as a liquid?

:) Yuma,

[Diceman]

Originally posted by Yuma
[]
How, would you charge it in?
In vapor or as a liquid?

:) Yuma, [/B]
Liquid by peeing, vapor charge turn around and fart.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by Freezeking2000
At least i will know someone in hell!

I live close enough to NewJersey to drive there in 50 mins.....hmmmm!


I can be there in 4 minutes, but I usually got the OTHER way.:D

[James 3528]

New Jersey



What a mess!

[standardgreg]

only time I ever did it: freezer with AZ-50(r507) had to use 404a. Chemically imbalanced by 2% + 404a is 1% 134a. My boss didnt like it, but it worked.

[Diceman]

Originally posted by James 3528
New Jersey



What a mess!
Yep........

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by Diceman

Originally posted by James 3528
New Jersey



What a mess!
Yep........

UH-HUH!

[R12rules]

Last Tuesday I ran into yet ANOTHER walk in freezer which was low on gas. This one had Hot Shot in it. 414B

And once again ... I had no MP66. All I had was 22 and some 409 on the van.
If I had some MP66, I probably would have recomended to the customer that the present refrigerant,(wanna-be), should be replaced with another gas. (A better "wanna-be").

I went to Natl Refrigerant's site and looked up the chemical properties of both gasses.

409 is as follows
60% R22
25% R124
15% R142B

And 414B is made up of
50% R22
39% R124
9.5% R142B
1.5% R600A
and a tiny amount of isobutane for some other purpose


Now when I saw these figures ....I thought; "Why not?"


They are SOOOOO close!!!



I guess if I had spoken with a chemist and someone at the Copeland Factory who anylyses this stuff ... maybe it is safe under certain conditions.
Maybe ..... maybe not???


I dont get paid by the customer to take thw rap on making compromises to their equipment.
Someone else alread has done that in Washington when they signed into effect the laws governing the freon chemicals we can use in this country.


Even though I have been slightly tempted to sin ... I have decided against it. :)

[Edited by R12rules on 01-17-2004 at 02:45 PM]

[James 3528]

If you mixed all that stuff and took all that time, you should of just pee`d in it.

[Dowadudda]

Ive both topped 12 systems off with 39 and 409 and both seem to work out for awhile. I would never dream od doing that on better and bigger equipment but, if it's old and it's small and the customer is cheap. Why the hell not. It works pretty good tooo BTW. Try it.

[Freezeking2000]

Dowadudda

Seen this exact thing done on RACK SYSTEMS!

[temp tech]

9, Or pee in it!

[moochone]

3 years ago, dumped 406 A on top of 22 walk in cooler, running on half and half, i check on her every once in awhile, runnning like champ.

[R12rules]

Ya know they said this EPA crap would weed out the do it yourself-ers and the shade tree mechanics who shot freon for their friends and the neighborhood bar ....

But ya know what .... we are now doing things that twelve years ago we wouldnt have dreamed of ever doing!!!

It's almost gotten to where we no longer have the same scrupples we once had.

I was lookin' at a sight glass just this afternoon thinkin' I wish I had something to throw in there to satisfy it's thirst for refrigerant.


I think we all oughta go back to the real freons and stop using the blends ..... "cold turkey"!

Then we wouldnt have to spend time wondering what's so and so gas made up of? And can it be blended further with this so and so gas?


And that idea, that FANTASY is no more ludacris than what the EPA/DuPont and a few senators all hatched together when they came up with the plans to phase out real refrigerants by claiming "The Sky is Falling"!

Just my two cents ......


Besides .... are we really saving our customers any money with these blends?
I mean, the company I work for charges ex amount of dollars for every pound of wanna-be refrigerant I squirt.

Thirteen years ago, when I was still shootin' R12, if we paid a dollar a pound, we charged the customer two bucks for the gas.
502 was two-fifty a pound, so we got five a pound for the stuff.

I worked for one guy who was charging $24 a pound for R-22!!!

What has the EPA done to us?

Every time I buy a gallon of milk or a pound of steak, that higher priced refrigerant is coming back to bite me.

I am purpetuating inflation!



makes me wanna puke......

[temp tech]

When I start using total NOD refrigerants im going to charge
a lot more more for it!!

[Dowadudda]

HAHHAHAHAAHA

I was talking to a guy the other dya at a supply house, explaining he's about run out of 502. I was like, damn dude, get with the times. He looked like a homeless person scraggly mechanic anyhow.

[R12rules]

I've heard stories about those neighborhoods you have supply houses in there in Detroit!!!
Baaaaaaaaad Neighbor-HOODS!!!

I wouldnt doubt you saw someone who looked like a hobo.
Especially after paying for the high price on freon these days .... :)

[Stamas]

or toolbag.
Didn't realize till the next morning that I did this and kicked myself hard. LT R-502, @3hp semi-unit, slap city and a leaking receiver. Got it going till the am, put a couple #'s in. Went with help and new unit next day. The mech that went with me wanted to know what I did to get it running the night before. I told him, his eyes kind lit up then he showed me my can of 502 he "borrowed" from me 2 days earlier. One of the last we have. I looked in the truck and only saw one can that resembled the 502. Our 502 can is getting pretty old and faded, but your still can see the #'s clearly. I can list the excuses if you want to hear them. But another lesson learned.
I think United charged us $3/# to dispose of that can.

[coolingitrite]

Dang, all these folks being hard on new jersey. Hell, I've been living here for thirty seven years and ONLY hate it 99% of the time.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by coolingitrite
Dang, all these folks being hard on new jersey. Hell, I've been living here for thirty seven years and ONLY hate it 99% of the time.

You're doing better than most.

What part of the country on the other side of the Delaware from America do you reside in? I'm right off I-80 a couple exits inside of America.:D

[rayr]

Hey Dave, maybe there is hope for me. I am collabrating with the enemy so to speak. My G/F lives by Oxfoford Valley. About 30 min from me.

[selfemployed]

Attended a meeting at United Refrig. last week on refrigerants and he was the speaker. Knowledgeable, good information and didn't push National. He knows Andy from Sporlan through conversations about valves and refrigerants. He reads this forum from time to time. As to the question, no I don't mix and use only Dupont products.

[Diceman]

Nobody is suggesting we whip up our our brand of refrigerants. In a pinch, on an old junky unit that just needs a shot of gas, we occasionaly juice it with the closest kind of freeeeeeeeezone we happen to have with us, that's all. And all the ones I did, only a very few, are still running good, so who's to say??

[selfemployed]

I admit I did it once this summer. Just disconnected units for disposal last week. Guess that puts me in the Hell bound crowd. I feel better now the guilt was getting to me. :D

[Diceman]

Good, that's a start, now say 100 Hail Mary's and 75 Our Fathers.

[selfemployed]

OK

[Diceman]

Don't be a smart ass either, I'm serious, on your knees you sinner............oops that's what the preists got in trouble for, my bad.

[temp tech]

Hey cockroach, don't bug me!


LOL!!

[Andy Schoen]

He knows Andy from Sporlan through conversations about valves and refrigerants.
Just got back from the AHR Expo in Anaheim, CA, and saw Jim at the National Refrigerants booth...

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by rayr
Hey Dave, maybe there is hope for me. I am collabrating with the enemy so to speak. My G/F lives by Oxfoford Valley. About 30 min from me.


You've got good taste in women, Unka Ray.:D

We do make certain residency exemptions available from time to time.:p

[condenseddave]

BTW, I'm a brand whore.:D

I don't care whose name is on the can, as long as the colors and numbers are pleasing.:p

(Orange, Green ---- Not an ethnic thing.:D And Robin's egg blue.)

[Diceman]

Originally posted by condenseddave
BTW, I'm a broad whore.:D


Coming out is the first step toward recovery.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by Diceman

Originally posted by condenseddave
BTW, I'm a brand whore.:D


Coming out is the first step toward recovery. Once I admitted my problem with goats, I was ablt to cut back to twice a day!


Er, thanks for your support, goatman.

[len]

id rather just pee in the damn things ,wife says ive got ice water for blood.[i wonder if that where my nick name came from in the army,ice cold

[temprite8671]

what about topping of r-12 w/ r-134a?

[R12rules]

If your R-12 system is a low temp, I suggest using MP66 to top off. That's if you are into "adding one to another".

However, if the R-12 system is a medium temp, I would suggest using 409.
If ... IF you were going to top off a blend onto a real refrigerant .... like R-12.


I dont know if this thread has said it clearly or not ... but one really big thing to look out for whenever you top off a blend like this ..... watch your system superheat back at the compressor.

I lost a 7.5 copelamatic once by not paying attention to the new gas and how it co-habitated with R-12.

Not a happy customer.

[Diceman]

I use 409, not the spray cleaner, the freeeeezone stuff.

[airmax]

Hope none of the EPA guys read this thread http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/26736_wink.gif

[Diceman]

Don't worry about EPA guys, they are all busy in the gay porn web sites............
And I hope they can a take a joke too......just in case.....

[Dowadudda]

I use to wonder about the refrigerants that would become used the most when all this alternative crap started 10 years ago. It looks like R404A is the choice these days for new stuff rolling out of factories for refrigeration stuff.

[icemeister]

I believe we can look forward to only having to carry R404A, R134A and R410A in the truck..........Yah, right....I should live so long.

I really like R404A for an all around gas. R134A is good but it has its limitations. R410A is aimed straight at the A/C guys. I can't wait to see what happens when they start messing around with POE's and blends.

[selfemployed]

Thats when we who have been dealing with the new refrigerants will have fun. But some of them are learning now on change outs from 22 > 410a not done correctly.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by Diceman

Originally posted by condenseddave
BTW, I'm a broad whore.:D


Coming out is the first step toward recovery.


Now I'm sure Dice can spell... and so can Dave. But what I just read dont make sense.


I bring this old thread back up for genman... hope this helps.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by temprite8671
what about topping of r-12 w/ r-134a?

We might be better off by using an interim gas instead of a permanent gas like 134 in this instance.

[genman]

Originally posted by icemeister
I believe we can look forward to only having to carry R404A, R134A and R410A in the truck..........Yah, right....I should live so long.

I really like R404A for an all around gas. R134A is good but it has its limitations. R410A is aimed straight at the A/C guys. I can't wait to see what happens when they start messing around with POE's and blends.

Will these three gases cover the market ???
John

[mike h]

They are mostly used by auto air conditioning mechanics-- so they don't cover all of the refrigerants that we use.

Bacharach is a nice one-- we have used them for 5 years. http://www.bacharach-inc.com/PDF/Brochures/8002%20GA%20500%20Plus.pdf

http://www.aituniversal.com makes one that covers more refrigerants. But have never used it.

As a wild ass rule of thumb-- 2% of the "wrong" refrigerant doesn't cause any problems. mike h

[icemeister]

Originally posted by genman
Will these three gases cover the market ???
John

When I said that, it was wishful thinking. Although the market in general appears to be focusing on these three gases, I don't forsee any real possibility of getting back to only three tanks in the truck.....at least for another 10-15 years.

R404A and R134A are great long-term refrigerants that can used with existing systems as long as the oil issues are addressed. The R410A thing is altogether different.....it requires different hardware than the R22 system it replaces due to the difference in operating pressures. Also, since New R22 systems are still being manufactured and R22 refrigerant will still be available for quite a while yet, I think the crossover time from R22 to R410A will far exceed what we have seen with r12 and R502.

I currently see the number of old R12 systems with interims like MP39 in them slowly fading away. Remember, new R12 and R502 systems haven't been made for over ten years now and those are really starting to show their age.

The oil issue is something we all have to watch and learn about every chance we get. Some of the early hard-and-fast rules of what oil can only be used with what are slowly being picked apart and exposed as so much overkill.Early on with the interim blends, there was a whole lot of oil changing going on.....not much of the now. I see the same happening on conversions from MO or AB oil based systems to R134A or R404A because in many cases the oil compatibility thing isn't that big a deal. It just seems that more guys are using HFCs with the old oils and not having any major problems.

I haven't gone there yet. I would love to simply dump R134A or R404A into some of these beasts and forget carrying the HCFC blends in the truck. Time will tell.

[wunderman]

FIXIN IS MIXIN

[R12rules]

Originally posted by wunderman
FIXIN IS MIXIN

And WHAT does that mean?

[Andy Schoen]

Originally posted by icemeister
I haven't gone there yet. I would love to simply dump R134A or R404A into some of these beasts and forget carrying the HCFC blends in the truck. Time will tell.

For equipment that is nearing its end of useful service life, mixing gases may not necessarily be a bad practice from an economic standpoint.

Maybe there can be a universal warning label place on such systems. How about placing a sticker with big red lettering on the compressor: "NEOSL" (near end of service life). :)

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by R12rules

Originally posted by wunderman
FIXIN IS MIXIN

And WHAT does that mean?



I think he's one of the ones we've been hunting, er, "looking" for.:mad:

[wunderman]

no really,what i meant to say is mixin aint fixin. however 9 out of 10 customers want that $5 fix. i myself am guilty of mixing when the going gets tough. i mean who really gives a **** if there are 10 different combinations in the system. if that POS is cycling (on temp) run with it. i wont ever mix a system that has potential to run 5-10 years longer. but if its on its last leg and needs less than 15% capacity. HELL YEA.

[R12rules]

To that old sixties tune of "Who wrote the book on love?" ... "I wunder wunder wunder wunder WHO ... WHO mixed the gases in YOU!?"...........


If I admited to doing what you just said you do, I would have to deny I do what you do. Cause I dont talk about it, just in case I was ever tempted to do what you do.

But I can see why you said what you did and why you do it.

[icemeister]

Originally posted by Andy Schoen
For equipment that is nearing its end of useful service life, mixing gases may not necessarily be a bad practice from an economic standpoint.

I really wish you hadn't said that, Andy......it kinda gives the message that this gas mixing thing is OK.

As an astute representative of the manufacturing sector here on this site you're supposed to say "Heck no, don't ever do it....the TXV won't control well and you won't know how to set you're SH because of the mixed gases"....and stuff like that ;).

(condenseddave.....I'm still trying, but I really do feel that we're losing 'em :()

[icemeister]

Originally posted by R12rules
To that old sixties tune of "Who wrote the book on love?" ... "I wunder wunder wunder wunder WHO ... WHO mixed the gases in YOU!?"...........

Then from the fifties, there's "Who put the bomp in the bomp-she-bomp-she-bomp?" ;)

[boat racer]

If I admited to doing what you just said you do, I would have to deny I do what you do. Cause I dont talk about it, just in case I was ever tempted to do what you do.

But I can see why you said what you did and why you do it.

Before I was being sarcastic, but on this I really am going to quote you ... :)

Could you possibly use any more pronouns? :) :) :)

[rocket]

REPLACEMENTS FOR R-12
here are the only acceptable replacement blends for R-12
(aceptable by all compressor manufactuers)
R401A (MP-39)
R401B (MP-66)
R409
THAT'S IT = THATS ALL
you may wish to believe the gas seller on approvals, but I called Copeland,Tecumseh and Carrier.

(HFC R-134a is not a blend , it's approved and my first choice for replacing R-12)

they are not NEW, they have been around 20 years, my first retro fit with MP-39 was 18 years ago - stop calling it new !!

if you wish to use the non approved blends, the count
goes up to possibly 6 (not 49)

most people buy blends based on the sales pitch of the seller, (all they gotta do is say "..it's a drop in)

so if you want to say "all these new blends, it's crazy",
and you want to mix them (illegal) that's fine with me but don't work on my stuff

[Andy Schoen]

Originally posted by icemeister
I really wish you hadn't said that, Andy......it kinda gives the message that this gas mixing thing is OK.



I'm sorrryyyy... :(

Obviously, I agree gas mixing isn't right. But if one knows the rules, then one is perhaps in a better position to bend them when the situation calls for creative thinking.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by icemeister

Originally posted by R12rules
To that old sixties tune of "Who wrote the book on love?" ... "I wunder wunder wunder wunder WHO ... WHO mixed the gases in YOU!?"...........

Then from the fifties, there's "Who put the bomp in the bomp-she-bomp-she-bomp?" ;)


Ha ha ha :)

[rayr]

Well we can certainly tell who was not around in the 50's and 60's or is not rock and roll trivia certified. lol

It is (Who wrote the Book OF Love" and who put the bomp in the bomp SHO bomp. No biggie just be careful of the final answer. Mixing gasses, "Forget about it". Your getting paid for it, "Do It Right"

[icemeister]

Originally posted by rayr
Well we can certainly tell who was not around in the 50's and 60's or is not rock and roll trivia certified. lol

It is (Who wrote the Book OF Love" and who put the bomp in the bomp SHO bomp. No biggie just be careful of the final answer. Mixing gasses, "Forget about it". Your getting paid for it, "Do It Right"

10-4 on the mixing stuff Ray. The trivia got us both, though. It's "bomp bah bomp bah bomp" and then " bop sho bop sho bop". You were closer than me so I guess you win. ;) :)

Here's the lyrics from 1961:

http://www.webfitz.com/lyrics/Lyrics/1961/801961.html