Need Federal Licensing!!!! Fed Up With Hacks!

[Big Unit]

Went on a service call yesterday for a wonderful Quietside boiler and wish I had a camera. Never seen an install this bad! Here was the list of problems I found in my 45 min. there before just telling the property owner it needs to be ripped out and re-installed.
1) Gas piping in black pipe ran across floor, not secured either, with no drip leg or shutoff, ANYWHERE!
2) No automatic fill valve, just a manual ball valve.
3) Exhaust slopes downward the whole length of the run.
4) Boiler intake stubs out of mechanical room into basement area.
5) No expansion tank anywhere to be found.
6) System has three zones with one common return. Their are no zone valves the pumps just turn on when that specific zone calls. The boiler is piped with the pumps pushing into the boiler then up what was originally supposed to be the return lines so their is no control of the zones.


Then the property owner refuses to pay because I didn't fix anything! Not my fault he's too cheap! I told him to call the original installer seeing as how it was put in 9 months ago, but he lost the guys number. Not the COMPANYS number but the GUYS number! Time to call the inspector for that city.:tank:

[plumadkl]

You are right about hakes they are everywhere in my county there is no licensing needed at all to start a heating company all you need is a truck and a tool box and a guy named bubba to help you. In the city its needed but half the guys who do work there don't have a license it's about time the trades come together Sheet Metal , HVAC , Electricians , Plumbers to start a National Licensing board but then again how much government do we need its a catch 22 .

[hearthman]

First of all, nobody can agree on what are the national standards as to what is right and wrong. Heck, this site was created to debate those very issues. The codes don't agree and are not up to date with technology or what actually works in the field. There are insufficient schools and instructors who, again don't know what to teach. There is no apprenticeship program for quality assurance. No system of post checks for quality control. The building inspectors don't know what they are looking at and do not have the time for an exhaustive inspection. So tell me, what in the world could federal licensing do that is positive? I can tell you that EVERY program the gov't has touched turned into the biggest fiasco of all time. They are synonymous with complete utter bungling, inefficient, destructive failure.

There is only just so much you can do to stop bad things. Local licensing does very little to guarantee proper workmanship, planning, layout, and execution. My advice is to focus on keeping your own house in order then market your superiority to your clients. Those who can appreciate how professional you are will willingly pay for your services. Those who try the cheap Charlie route will still end up calling you only now it will cost more to correct the mess. Instead of cursing these messes, think of them as job security and are blessings that feed your family.

You can take the homeowner to court and collect for the service call or you can just write it off and move on. I've been preaching here for 5 yrs to carry cameras and document everything. I've been preaching to get your business SOP in order which includes what you tell the homeowner at the time of scheduling the appt. and what they get. Some companies won't schedule until a base charge has been run through their credit card for just such cases. Know your local laws and protect yourself. Some companies are requiring a homeowner email back acceptance of the terms of service contract to support claims in small claims courts.

I charge a base fee to come out inspect and consult on the suitability and viability of an installation. The estimate is free but you pay for my inspection and consultation. Then, if you elect to have be service it, my other fees apply but regardless I walk out the door with a check. The only time I got stiffed was by a biker on drugs who threatened to kill me and I ran for my life.

Let's leave our fascist socialists gov't alone--they have their hands full with screwing up the country already without adding another bureaucracy to it.

Hearthman

[sktn77a]

Need Federal Licensing!!!! Fed Up With Hacks!


First of all, nobody can agree on what are the national standards as to what is right and wrong.

If they can do it for medicine, there's no reason it can't be done for HVAC!

[Twilly]

Twilli says thats exactly what we need another license and no one to enforce existing codes. Great idea.

[wood-row68]

:patriot: More government intervention will not solve anything. They have too much control the way it is now you know they would raise your taxes to pay for govern the trade and these hacks would still be out there. So with that being said don’t you think that these people that hire those hacks get what they pay for and that the word of mouth will put them out of work sooner or later, just my two cents!!!

[davefr]

Need Federal Licensing!!!! Fed Up With Hacks!



If they can do it for medicine, there's no reason it can't be done for HVAC!

OK, let's propose 4 years undergraduate study in science and physics. Now let's allow those with the best GPA's to enter a 2-4 year series of courses in HVAC. Now let's those that graduate go on to practice under a pro. Now they can get a license to practice HVAC!!

[bmathews]

Honestly, licensing and codes are only as good as enforcement. I've seen some pretty bad jobs that I have no idea how they passed inspection and I know they were inspected. We also have licensing in Texas. So it really is nothing more than a money grab for the cities, states, etc... I'll get a job like that sometimes, where it is so f#%ked up there is nothing to do but blow it up and start over. But nobody wants to pay and they don't want to pay for your service call. Just smile and walk away and chalk it up to being part of the job on occasion. Your life isn't going to end because of it, so don't sweat it.

[ChuckHVAC]

I am not a fan of national licensing, if you already have local licensing how would national licensing change anything? The hacks and the tight wads will always be out there getting around any system.
I do agree with the frustration expressed in your rant. It does seem that we spend way too much time cleaning up other peoples messes. The original installer rips the customer off and makes some quick easy money, but when we have to tell the owner that it will cost big bucks just to straighten it out they sometimes treat us like we are the thiefs!

[Toolboy]

Here in Wisconsin, we require a license for an HVAC company. Unfortunately, the only requirement is that you pass a ridiculous test that is about 90% Industrial and commercial, and maybe 10% residential. Our state is about 90% residential and 10% other. The second biggest problem is that since you only need a business license, one guy with a license can hire three kids off the street who know nothing, give them a van and a uniform, and Viola! they are HVAC Pro's. (you can also buy an existing company with a license and do not have to meet any requirements). We need a program like plumbers have in our state, individual licensing with an apprenticeship program.
Great Topic! Thanks.
PS. I agree with "Hearthman", Great input!

[timebuilder]

I am not a fan of national licensing, if you already have local licensing how would national licensing change anything? The hacks and the tight wads will always be out there getting around any system.
I do agree with the frustration expressed in your rant. It does seem that we spend way too much time cleaning up other peoples messes. The original installer rips the customer off and makes some quick easy money, but when we have to tell the owner that it will cost big bucks just to straighten it out they sometimes treat us like we are the thiefs!

But wait. That homeowner just got his steak cooked without any "extra costs." Isn't that what homeowners want?

Bbbbbwwwhahahahahahahahhahah!!!!!!!

[woodsman]

As long as equipment is being bought from the internet there will be unlicensed, uninsured hacks doing hvac work.

[lamrith]

:patriot: More government intervention will not solve anything. They have too much control the way it is now you know they would raise your taxes to pay for govern the trade and these hacks would still be out there. So with that being said don’t you think that these people that hire those hacks get what they pay for and that the word of mouth will put them out of work sooner or later, just my two cents!!!

I would tend to agree, but the isue is there are SOOOOO many installers and where do you get word of mouth from? Some of these hacks can put in a system that to the common homeowner is fine, until it fails 5-10years later, or it may never fail, but that does not mean it was done right. So you can't rely on your neighbor for a referal, or anyone else. Total Catch 22. And knowing in advance if someone is a hack is difficult, unless you have spent time on this site researching and learning what to ask, and some key phrasing to try and "spook" the quoter so he thinks your not clueless.

But I do not think a Federal licensing would really help unfortunately. It is going to come down to HO/customers doing ALLOT of background reasearch vefore calling in quoters which most will not do. That is the only way to get rid of the hacks thru lack of work imo.

[kls-ccc]

I was pushing for a state licence here, created by HVAC pros, enforced by the government. It would set a varifiable standard of installation that the inspector could follow, equipment could not be purchased without a licence, it had a journyman apprentice program - no apprentice on the job without journeyman or higher, if you hacked in a job that didn't pass inspection and got caught you fixed it FREE, it had residential, light commercial, commercial, and inductrial sections that could not be crossed ie no res. work on a lht com licence etc, HOs could buy equipment for big box but would have to use the dealers licence & dealer would be responsable. testing would be about more than just sadety issues, I could go on. So here is what happened. A letter and survey got passed around at all the service schools and meetings I went to, a trainer for a local distributor passed it around at his schools, a training facility passed it around at those classes, 90% of the dealers and techs that saw the outline liked the idea and signed the responce sheet. I sent the letter and sign up sheet to all the distributors I could come up with along with a letter asking them to just put it on their counter, they didn't even have to endorse it just put it out where Techs could see it and if they wanted to send it out with sales reps would be great. I got a 100% responce back from the distribs, "We think it is a good idea but are affraid it will make out customers mad so we won't do it" I even followed up with phone calls to many of them and got the same responce. So it died.

[probe]

I lost a quote to some menonites in my town. Vent pipe is exhausting 5 inches away from a single pain 50 year old window. Nice guy that i am i told the homeowners father-inlaw that it is not safe. That was a year ago and nobody changed it.

[davefr]

As long as equipment is being bought from the internet there will be unlicensed, uninsured hacks doing hvac work.

Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).

Internet sales are a drop in the bucket.

Quality work begins with the management philosophy of the company. I really don't think techs. want to do "hack" installs. Either they don't have the skills, aptitude or training for the job or they aren't given the time to do things right.

[lamrith]

Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).

Internet sales are a drop in the bucket.

Quality work begins with the management philosophy of the company. I really don't think techs. want to do "hack" installs. Either they don't have the skills, aptitude or training for the job or they aren't given the time to do things right.

GREAT POINT. even good companies and installers can do less than stellar work when they are "back against a wall"
d for scheduling, short handed, or have a new crew member. A Key is brining concerns up to the installer, salesperson, etc politely and respectfully. With a new guy, they may not even know he is doing it wrong, and letting them know helps not only the HO, but the HVAC Co as they can correct the problem asap. Saves everyone in the long run.

[timebuilder]

Licensed contractors probably do far more "hack" work then everyone else combined. (based on the sheer number of them).


Alert the media!!!!!!!

OK, sarcasm aside, I'm dumbfounded that someone could make such assertion without even anecdotal evidence of at least a handful of licensed contractors doing "hack" work, much less the result of a real study by some advocacy or oversight group.

When I see hacky work, it is invariable a cousin of "joey."

[ChuckHVAC]

When I see hacky work, it is invariable a cousin of "joey."

Same here, I'm not talking about the minor stuff that might might slip past an inspector. I mean the really bad and unsafe stuff. There are exceptions to every general statement, but mostly the licensed contractors around here do a pretty good job.

[MoleculeMan]

Licensing guarantees nothing. I have seen plenty of shortcuts and 'hacks' made by other licensed professionals (how many times have you seen floor joists decimated by a plumber, cheap outlets installed by electricians, etc.) Those who want to do quality work will spend the extra time to get educated and do the job right. Most homeowners, if your upfront with them (and you educate them) will pay to have a professional job done. Those who don't want to pay up will always find a hack, licensed or not, to do a cheap job.

[DGIO-Not]

As someone has lived in worked in very different regions: federal licensing can not address codes, construction and climate. Oh sure, they can try, but it is like with Energry Efficiency and fighting off state legistlation that exceeds federal.

My last market, local inspectors drove around and swooped in like Kamakazees. Current market? Calling and telling them someone didn't pull a permit or doesn't have license gets a shrug and "So? Are you going to call the licensing board?"


As legislation gets stricter, so does apathy. My last market did not require licensing, this one has pretty high standards. State is actually really good about response but we have Senate bill to cut their force in half.

Quite frankly in last year, we have had to totally provide new and reinstall two installations just over 2yo. Pull, clean and reinstall with modifications five installations that 5-7 years old. Go head to head with a manufacturer sales sides, with support of tech support that we were offering to be witness to total disregard for installation and local codes. What is worse, they were all jobs permits were pulled and inspected (well, couple were in really nasty crawl spaces--we had them encapsulated just so we could do job right), had to deal with originating inspectors and "educate" them. Pure Apathy, I think I preferred with dealing with the Kamakazee, not exactly knowing the difference of codes from one village to the next so just exceeding all.

[john-hvac-new]

I am not a fan of national licensing, if you already have local licensing how would national licensing change anything? The hacks and the tight wads will always be out there getting around any system.
I do agree with the frustration expressed in your rant. It does seem that we spend way too much time cleaning up other peoples messes. The original installer rips the customer off and makes some quick easy money, but when we have to tell the owner that it will cost big bucks just to straighten it out they sometimes treat us like we are the thiefs!

A small but positive step might be for the professional members on this website to be listed by location, with contact information. Then a homeowner, like me, who is looking for a truly capable technician and a quality conscious company, would have a way to make that connection.

[sktn77a]

OK, let's propose 4 years undergraduate study in science and physics. Now let's allow those with the best GPA's to enter a 2-4 year series of courses in HVAC. Now let's those that graduate go on to practice under a pro. Now they can get a license to practice HVAC!!

Don't see why not - they charge more than physicians!!!

:D

[RoBoTeq]

Need Federal Licensing!!!! Fed Up With Hacks!



If they can do it for medicine, there's no reason it can't be done for HVAC!
LOL! I think you made the point for why we don't want any more government involved in our industry.:whistle:

[mark beiser]

Never invite a vampire into your home!



Alert the media!!!!!!!

OK, sarcasm aside, I'm dumbfounded that someone could make such assertion without even anecdotal evidence of at least a handful of licensed contractors doing "hack" work, much less the result of a real study by some advocacy or oversight group.

When I see hacky work, it is invariable a cousin of "joey."

Hack work from license contractors, both small and large, is the norm in the Fort Worth/Dallas area, rather than the exception.

[RoBoTeq]

Never invite a vampire into your home!




Hack work from license contractors, both small and large, is the norm in the Fort Worth/Dallas area, rather than the exception.
That's because neither of the two things that come from Texas are very good with HVAC; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFSdj1J5Vw&feature=player_detailpage

[wolfstrike]

MORE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE ANSWER!

here in California we have a hack epidemic.

the government comes out and says, "to be a contractor you need this,this,and this, ...EPA this , IRS that"

the average technician who has been in the field for years is scared to apply.

meanwhile, some guy who gets off the boat from Micronesia says "yeah yeah yeah, i got all that...26 years as a contractor in Micronesia"
then, he gets his Micronesian buddies to lie for him on the application,
....the honest tech doesn't have this.

if the contractor's board raises an issue, the Micronesian starts screaming "racism".
...and guess what?
even though the contractor's board requires 5 years experience, they cave and give the guy a license even though his real experience is less than a year.

and you think more government will help this?

________________________________

the inspectors out here are a joke.
they don't even know what the hell they are looking at.
the government keeps them dumb on purpose.

__________________________________


we had an American contractor guy who was getting information from old ladies, on jobs, then emptying their bank account.
despite numerous complaints, the board never pulled his license until they did a big story about him on TV.

we need more corrupt government?



__________________________________


the solutions are simple.

the government needs to give people a general test.
it doesn't matter if you've been in the field 5 years or 5 minutes, if you know your sht, you pass, and get your license.

if too many people (percentage) complain about your company, you lose your license.

if people want to hire contractors without checking credentials, that's their risk.

there's little reason for people to get burned by contractors, because in most states you don't have to pay much of anything until the job is done

[SandShark]

That's because neither of the two things that come from Texas are very good with HVAC; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFSdj1J5Vw&feature=player_detailpageReally? Really?

[techbill11]

That is what has caused a lot of the mess we are in."I do not like there should be more laws funny 99.9% of the time there is already a law to deal with an issue it just is not enforced then they add another to it not long from now we will all be criminals in some form or fashion.(maybe by design?).By the way they are going to run healthcare scary because if you look at everything else they do it is "great"for those who fit a cookie cutter mold sucks for those outside box speaking from experience.

[RoBoTeq]

Really? Really?
Oh come on, now! Don't tell me you don't have a sense of humor. You're just reinforcing my stand that you guys aren't really "gay" at all......:grin2:....:cheers:

[glennac]

You live in NY state right? Don't they have a state lic. board for HVAC contractors? Sue the owner for payment and tell the owner to tell the installer to correct all the mistakes you told him or he will report the job to the state lic board and the installer will be subject to fines and or suspension or revocation of lic. Thank you, thank you very much

[glennac]

Oh come on, now! Don't tell me you don't have a sense of humor. You're just reinforcing my stand that you guys aren't really "gay" at all......:grin2:....:cheers:

Well you know robo after all not all folks have a sense of humor or as "gay" as you are you don't you know especially on the gay thing so to speak yours truly included. :bump::grin2::cheers: Thank you, thank you very much

[royc]

Went on a service call yesterday for a wonderful Quietside boiler and wish I had a camera. Never seen an install this bad! Here was the list of problems I found in my 45 min. there before just telling the property owner it needs to be ripped out and re-installed.
1) Gas piping in black pipe ran across floor, not secured either, with no drip leg or shutoff, ANYWHERE!
2) No automatic fill valve, just a manual ball valve.
3) Exhaust slopes downward the whole length of the run.
4) Boiler intake stubs out of mechanical room into basement area.
5) No expansion tank anywhere to be found.
6) System has three zones with one common return. Their are no zone valves the pumps just turn on when that specific zone calls. The boiler is piped with the pumps pushing into the boiler then up what was originally supposed to be the return lines so their is no control of the zone

Then the property owner refuses to pay because I didn't fix anything! Not my fault he's too cheap! I told him to call the original installer seeing as how it was put in 9 months ago, but he lost the guys number. Not the COMPANYS number but the GUYS number! Time to call the inspector for that city.:tank:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PCz_qk19Qw

Yes, lets keep feeding the beast, so it can have more litters.


Roy

[hvacker]

Before I was involved in HVAC I was in aviation as both military and civilian. In Hvac while working for other companies the same SOP was used and that was "Here is your truck and here are your calls. They never had a clue if I knew what I was doing and any advice from the "pros" was questionable.

In aviation an apprentice for their A&P license worked side by side with a licensed mechanic and everything was inspected by an A&P inspector. There was no "doing it my way" and I never heard of a short cut. It was by the book.
Government involvement doesn't have to be a bad thing but to involve the Gov at this stage of the Hvac evolution is like taming the wild west. It's also a lot larger than aviation. Some in Government might say let the market do it's job. Those of us that have been in Hvac for awhile might say Good luck with that. The market is predicated on cheap is better and the final judge on this is a no nothing customer.
It's interesting in this field counting how many excellent techs you've known compared with the others.

[timebuilder]

might have been as you described years ago, but todat the final judge is your public reputation on referral websites and social media. Now, its not only a question of price, but one of did you make a repair that "stuck to the wall."

[catmanacman]

Probably did not pay the other guy thats why he did not call him

[ICanHas]

We're in America.
Do you want to turn it into a police state than it already is now?

Look at all DWI injuries and death. Of that, how many of those were caused by unlicensed drivers?

If licensing was the sole factor, you would feel 100% comfortable riding with a stranger because he's licensed to drive.

[mark beiser]

If licensing was the sole factor, you would feel 100% comfortable riding with a stranger because he's licensed to drive.

Since the majority of the "licensed" drivers on the road lack the intellectual capacity to safely operate a motor vehicle on the highway, no....

[hvacvegas]

Since the majority of the "licensed" drivers on the road lack the intellectual capacity to safely operate a motor vehicle on the highway, no....

Yeah, the fact that my brother has a license, is proof enough that the test needs to be harder.


As mentioned before, it's not just the "law", it's enforcement.
I know a of entire counties that don't exactly have HVAC codes, because they don't even have inspectors.

[RoBoTeq]

We should not have to be licensed to do anything! All licenses are, are licenses for government to take more of our money by pretending to do something for our collective good.

We should get rid of all licensing and start handing out "not licensed" certificates to those who do things they don't know how to do properly. (This idea comes from the sequel to Atlas Shrugged called Atlas Snubbed) If every hack who screwed up a system were to get a "not-licensed" certificate and their name and photo were posted in prominent places for all to see, the hacks would either get better or not get any more work.

Licensing just punishes everyone in a lame attempt to regulate those who don't really care whether they are licensed or not.

[uniservice]

To the states and local governments, it's all about revenue. Not about safety and proper procedures. I was told by an inspector, that if I saw an unlicensed individual doing work at a job site I should take pictures of him working and forward the pictures to the inspector's agency. "We don't have the funding to pay for enforcement." So am I supposed to do their job?

[OldSchoolMech]

It just mind boggles me that thier is No Lic needed to do HVAC work in the USA. If you do not have a Gas lic in Canada you can,t buy gas fired parts. If you do not have an ODP card you cant buy reffer. The TSSA polices and gives out Lic. They pic companys at random to come out and inspect your jobs. They hand out hefty fines as well. It doesnt stop the hacks but I think it lessens it just a little bit. I like having a Lic hell a Refer Lic is the same as a BA from university both 5 years to obtain. I have a G1.going for CFQ Reefer Lic,have ODP Lic, Gas tight Lic and after I get my Refer Lic I will start my Electricain Aprentice. I was ounce told by a wise old man that the new way is all about that piece of paper (Lic) It doesnt matter if you can do the job you just gotta ahve that piece of paper. Who are they gonna fire the guy with 1 Lic or the guy with 7?? I am Proud to be a Lic HVAC/R Tech

[RoBoTeq]

It just mind boggles me that thier is No Lic needed to do HVAC work in the USA. If you do not have a Gas lic in Canada you can,t buy gas fired parts. If you do not have an ODP card you cant buy reffer. The TSSA polices and gives out Lic. They pic companys at random to come out and inspect your jobs. They hand out hefty fines as well. It doesnt stop the hacks but I think it lessens it just a little bit. I like having a Lic hell a Refer Lic is the same as a BA from university both 5 years to obtain. I have a G1.going for CFQ Reefer Lic,have ODP Lic, Gas tight Lic and after I get my Refer Lic I will start my Electricain Aprentice. I was ounce told by a wise old man that the new way is all about that piece of paper (Lic) It doesnt matter if you can do the job you just gotta ahve that piece of paper. Who are they gonna fire the guy with 1 Lic or the guy with 7?? I am Proud to be a Lic HVAC/R Tech
The U.S. is supposed to be the land of the free. Citizen's under constant governing are not free. Unlike Canada, the U.S. fought the British (and Canadians) for independence from governmental rule over the citizens. Why would we want to continue striving to get back to that which our ancestors fought to get rid of?

[DGIO-Not]

Licensing is only as good as its police state or in some jurisdictions, extortion.

For most part, those who care...they pay the price and accept what they need to do. In fact most of them have already figured out how to differentiate themselves from the competition.

But what about markets where you buy in, just because that is what is expected of you (and really--you want to debate that position?)

Many years ago, I read an editorial in a periodical that has stuck with me to this day. The article was about our justice system. The questions and observations were eye opening and do have an impact on how I view regulation today. The statement was: our justice system is predicated on the premise that those who err want to learn--be rehabilitated (and I am not just using fancy words,) the question that followed: what do you do with those who have no interest or desire to learn?

Licensing only gives them a blank check...don't you think?

[crymtide]

DGIO-NOT, I agree completely.:gah::gah::gah::gah::gah::gah::gah:

[timebuilder]

It just mind boggles me that thier is No Lic needed to do HVAC work in the USA. If you do not have a Gas lic in Canada you can,t buy gas fired parts. If you do not have an ODP card you cant buy reffer. The TSSA polices and gives out Lic. They pic companys at random to come out and inspect your jobs. They hand out hefty fines as well. It doesnt stop the hacks but I think it lessens it just a little bit. I like having a Lic hell a Refer Lic is the same as a BA from university both 5 years to obtain. I have a G1.going for CFQ Reefer Lic,have ODP Lic, Gas tight Lic and after I get my Refer Lic I will start my Electricain Aprentice. I was ounce told by a wise old man that the new way is all about that piece of paper (Lic) It doesnt matter if you can do the job you just gotta ahve that piece of paper. Who are they gonna fire the guy with 1 Lic or the guy with 7?? I am Proud to be a Lic HVAC/R Tech

If all that works so well, why does Mike Holmes have more folks who need help than he could take care of in a dozen lifetimes???

[OldSchoolMech]

The U.S. is supposed to be the land of the free. Citizen's under constant governing are not free. Unlike Canada, the U.S. fought the British (and Canadians) for independence from governmental rule over the citizens. Why would we want to continue striving to get back to that which our ancestors fought to get rid of?

The Land of the Free? So you think it should just be a free for all? Why do americans need a drivers lic? Why can't I just come to the states and start doing breast implants? Doesn't sound like the Land of the free to me. It shows that the people that are doing the work are capable of doing the work thats why they are Lic Tech not some guy that was working at McDonalds and says Hey I wanna be an HVAC/R Tech and the next day he is. It is the Land of the Free. He has a FREE choice to better himself and get a Lic and become an HVAC/R Tech. Not some weekender wanna be un Lic hack. That pops up every where when its a Free for all.

I don't see how having to be Lic to do a skilled job is hurting you Freedom?

[Six]

The Land of the Free? So you think it should just be a free for all? Why do americans need a drivers lic? Why can't I just come to the states and start doing breast implants? Doesn't sound like the Land of the free to me. It shows that the people that are doing the work are capable of doing the work thats why they are Lic Tech not some guy that was working at McDonalds and says Hey I wanna be an HVAC/R Tech and the next day he is. It is the Land of the Free. He has a FREE choice to better himself and get a Lic and become an HVAC/R Tech. Not some weekender wanna be un Lic hack. That pops up every where when its a Free for all.

I don't see how having to be Lic to do a skilled job is hurting you Freedom?

Licensing does not equate to competence. If you want to be successful and stay employed then you need to be competent so you work hard towards that goal. You stay informed, educated and you take your vocation seriously.

That plus a the personal commitment to be the very best you can possibly be is what makes a technician qualified. A qualified American technician. We believe in a strong work ethic.

The lack of government distributed stamped official looking documents must mean NOTHING works for longer than 15 minutes in America right ?

Well it does and there must be a reason for it.

We, left alone in our trade to run it as we see fit with minimal government intervention have shown that governmental involvement is unessential.

Its hard to explain to someone who lives in a society that is complacent to governmental involvement the importance of the individual in a free society.

A true American repulses at the thought of governmental dependency and government assistance. Those who live here that have been brought up with their hand out asking what can this Country do for me do not represent the majority who only ask to be left alone and know their capabilities.


Aslo if you've ever been to the states you'll know a drivers license doesn't equate to competence behind the wheel

[timebuilder]

Licensing does not equate to competence.
[snip]
Aslo if you've ever been to the states you'll know a drivers license doesn't equate to competence behind the wheel

That is true in all things.

A pilot's license does NOT make you a good pilot.

A Doctor's medical license does NOT make you a good doctor.

In fact, a document that says you are a President of the US does NOT make you a good President, lol!!!

Perhaps what this means is that we are generally unwilling to delude ourselves into believing that having licensing would make the trade better here.

From what I see on TV, licensing does not keep Mike Holmes from shaking his head, does it?

[RoBoTeq]

The Land of the Free? So you think it should just be a free for all? Why do americans need a drivers lic? Why can't I just come to the states and start doing breast implants? Doesn't sound like the Land of the free to me. It shows that the people that are doing the work are capable of doing the work thats why they are Lic Tech not some guy that was working at McDonalds and says Hey I wanna be an HVAC/R Tech and the next day he is. It is the Land of the Free. He has a FREE choice to better himself and get a Lic and become an HVAC/R Tech. Not some weekender wanna be un Lic hack. That pops up every where when its a Free for all.

I don't see how having to be Lic to do a skilled job is hurting you Freedom?
Unfortunately, some freedoms must be given up in order to have a structured society. However, that does not mean that we should allow government to have a free for all reign over our lives.

No, I do believe the entire population of the U.S. should be penalized by being required to have drivers licenses. A more logical approach would be to give those drivers who do not respect the rights of others by not staying within the guidelines that society sets for driving to be given a "Not Allowed to Drive" license. Why should everyone have to pay for what a few do?

If you are qualified to do breast implants and have proof of your education to do so, I see no reason why you should not be able to do them without having to pay government licensing fees. Is there any way that government licensing makes anyone a better driver or a better breast implanter?

How does having a license prove that one tech is better then another? I don't have a license to do HVAC work in local areas of the U.S. that require licensing, and I'll bet I'm much better at doing such work then most of those who are licensed are.

The problem with Canadian thinking is that you don't understand that the United States of America is supposed to be a union of independent states and not a federation under a central government control.

As for your thinking that Canada works better then the U.S. because Canadians are all subserviant to government and the Queen of England, think about this; Is the major monetary unit in the world the U.S. dollar? Is the U.S. military the most prominent defense system in more nations in the world then any other? When the most powerful leader in the world is mentioned, do people think of the U.S. president or the Canadian Prime Minister?

I'm not trying to be an ass about this, but if you are going to start making accusations, you should first think about what you are claiming.

[ICanHas]

I don't see how having to be Lic to do a skilled job is hurting you Freedom?

Maybe up in the hat, asking the crown for permission to do anything feels so normal. Having to get government approval for everything and doing it by government prescribed methods isn't the idea of freedom.

There comes a point where its necessary to regulate things like deciding that we're going on the right side for the sake of keeping people from driving on whichever side they feel like driving on. We know though traffic cops have stepped over their line and turned it into a revenue center.

Truth to be told, the contractors complaining about the practice of unlicensed ones aren't concerned about the practice itself as much as the fear of competition.

A truly concerned environmentalist would be reporting neighbors' cars for having gutted out catalytic converter as often as reporting competitors to EPA for venting refrigerants.