AHS is scamming me...please help.

[jasonblu]

Hi everyone - first post here. Thank you all for having a forum like this.

I will try to keep this simple.

American Home Shield (AHS) replaced my 21 year old indoor air handler unit with a Payne PH10JA048-G indoor PF1MNC049. According to this resource ([http://216.122.60.247/PayneRatings/hpratelist.asp?order=Matched) they gave me a 10.5 SEER unit. My 5 year old outdoor CARRIER condenser/compressor (which they replaced the compressor on with a new one via the existing warranty) is a 3 ton, 13 SEER unit.

If I am not mistaken, they broke some rules by not matching my outdoor 13 seer Condenser/Compressor with an indoor 13 seer AHU, right ? If so, which ones? (Maryland state code? Generic HVAC code? EPA law? all of the above? None of the Above?)

I called AHS and at first they agreed saying yes, the condenser coils on the indoor unit were only 10.5 SEER and said someone would be out to replace the unit again with the right kind, then today they called back and said that order was cancelled, and if I wanted the reason I could try to "speak to a manager". She mumbled something about a TXV was in the AHU and that this made the units "compatible" and they were not required to make the two units "match" 13 seer for 13 seer.

Are they jerking me around?

If they are, what official documentation (links to code law, HVAC code, EPA regs, etc) can you all give me as ammo that I could show them they would be required to replace the AHU with a 13 SEER.

My understanding is, that come summer when I use the AC, it will cost me 30% more to cool my house with a 10 seer compared to a 13. That's a lot!

Thank you all for your help!

[BaldLoonie]

PH10 is a heat pump. 10 SEER pumps haven't been made since 2005. They just put this in? Or did they put in the air handler PF1MNC049 which is a current product that is fine with a 13 SEER HP?

[2old2rock]

AHS does this to us all the time.
We change coil to a mis-match, and use a txv to compensate.
That would be a 13 seer coil to a 10 seer outdoor unit. Not always the MOST efficient, but the systems works
AHS can be a pain, but they are fair to customers and contractors.
They pay for repairs, but just aren't going to pay for upgrades of functional equipment.
I don't blame them.
They're in business to make money.

[jasonblu]

PH10 is a heat pump. 10 SEER pumps haven't been made since 2005. They just put this in? Or did they put in the air handler PF1MNC049 which is a current product that is fine with a 13 SEER HP?

The just put in a PF1MNC049 Air handler, which the sticker says was built in 2009. Which is a 10.5 SEER according to Payne.

You are saying this AHU is "fine" for going with the outdoor 13 SEER? I am sure it is "fine" but is it optimal? Is it legal for them to do this?

I keep reading and hearing that both units MUST match SEER ratings. At least, that's what all the HVAC system techs kept saying when they were trying to sell me on why I needed a new AHU unit. Then I file a claim with my home warranty and AHS does it for free, but only installs a 10.5.

What gives? Are HVAC salesmen exaggerating their sales pitches, or is AHS gyping me. It can't be both!

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Ask Payne if its an ARHI rated match. That will be your answer...

[beenthere]

First. Unless your local codes have a restriction. There is no code against them installing a 10 SEER unit.

The Federal reg, is that manufactures can't make new units less then 13 SEER.
And since an air handler has NO SEER rating. Its legal as far as federal regs.
It only changes the SEER rating of the outdoor unit its matched to.

[classical]

The just put in a PF1MNC049 Air handler, which the sticker says was built in 2009. Which is a 10.5 SEER according to Payne.

You are saying this AHU is "fine" for going with the outdoor 13 SEER? I am sure it is "fine" but is it optimal? Is it legal for them to do this?

I keep reading and hearing that both units MUST match SEER ratings. At least, that's what all the HVAC system techs kept saying when they were trying to sell me on why I needed a new AHU unit. Then I file a claim with my home warranty and AHS does it for free, but only installs a 10.5.

What gives? Are HVAC salesmen exaggerating their sales pitches, or is AHS gyping me. It can't be both!

Quit your b*&*&*** you got something for nothing and the contractor that installed it made nothing so fair is fair. What you have now is better than what you had before.

If you want quality pay for it period!

[2old2rock]

You're not getting cheated, and the salesguys aren't BS'ing.
AHS is not going to pay to replace functioning equipment.
They don't care if your system is at peak performance. It's working.
When I run into this, I give the customer the option to cash out from AHS, and pay the difference for a complete system.

[dash]

Your old air handler,with the 13 SEER outdoor was a worse match then what you have now.

Built in 2009,likely a decent match for your outdoor unit,Baldie will likely look that up for you.

[Buck_Taylor]

The just put in a PF1MNC049 Air handler, which the sticker says was built in 2009. Which is a 10.5 SEER according to Payne.

You are saying this AHU is "fine" for going with the outdoor 13 SEER? I am sure it is "fine" but is it optimal? Is it legal for them to do this?

I keep reading and hearing that both units MUST match SEER ratings. At least, that's what all the HVAC system techs kept saying when they were trying to sell me on why I needed a new AHU unit. Then I file a claim with my home warranty and AHS does it for free, but only installs a 10.5.

What gives? Are HVAC salesmen exaggerating their sales pitches, or is AHS gyping me. It can't be both!

Your warranty service is to replace old, broken equipment, not upgrade your system to the latest code minimums.

They replaced your indoor coil with a like value replacement, but were limited by what they can do with the outside equipment because of codes. In fact, if they really tried and made some phone calls, they could have found you an older (new) 10 SEER condenser sitting in a warehouse somewhere and installed that to meet your concerns about being "matched". Instead, you got a higher efficiency outdoor unit.

The "matched" concern being discussed is about using a combination of inside and outside equipment that acheives a certain energy efficiency performance level to meet new installation codes. Existing equipment does not have to meet this requirement. You basically had extensive repairs, but not a system repalcement/upgrade.

A (properly selected) TxV is an appropriate way to get these coils to behave properly together. You will not have a 13 SEER system, but it will be better than 10.5 SEER depending on the actual capacity of the evaporator coil compared to the compressor capacity and the balance point temperture of the evaporator when running.

It sounds to me like you actually got a really good deal (if they did their work properly).

[BaldLoonie]

Air handlers don't have efficiency ratings. It depends upon what it outside as well. Since this new AH is meant to mate with Payne 13 SEER outdoor units, you should be fine with a 13 SEER Carrier as well. There will be no official rating since AHRI doesn't rate different brands but Payne is a Carrier product so it is very similar (or maybe even identical) to what Carrier would put it's model # on.

[catmanacman]

this is the problem with home shield you never get the good stuff , you always get the cheapest lowest efficiency stuff and most of the time a crappy install to boot

[bwalley]

If you are driving a Ford Escort and you get into a wreck and it is totaled, do you expect the insurance company to buy you a new Lincoln or pay yo actual cash value?

In this case it looks like AHS did more thanjust pay actual cash value they upgraded the system but not to the best unit available.

Insurance companies like AHS are not going to upgrade your equipment, they will fix the existing equipment or get the closest thing available.

Based on your post they took care of you on more than once, how do you figure they are scamming you???

[bmathews]

Air handlers are not rated by SEER and 10 SEER anything hasn't been made in 4 years. So you having a 10.5 SEER air handler is impossible. You got something for free for your couple of hundred dollars a year you pay for your warranty. It would have easily cost your at least 4-5 times that had you paid for it yourself.

[smittyii]

why do ahs customers always think they are getting scammed???? read your contract. don't expect something for nothing. just because you have a contract with ahs doesn't mean you have to trust your a/c system to one of their contractors, you are still free to call a professional and get what you want. if their service is lacking, you must send them packing. apologies to the late johnnie cochran.:D

[wolfstrike]

i think there may have been a mistake with who ever said the coil was 10.5 SEER.

i live here in California and i was under the impression that no new equiptment is being sold that is under 13 SEER.

also, if AHS replaced something, you're doing pretty good, because out here they don't want to replace anything.

(i used to work for a company that owned AHS)

[MoveOver]

The just put in a PF1MNC049 Air handler, which the sticker says was built in 2009. Which is a 10.5 SEER according to Payne.

You are saying this AHU is "fine" for going with the outdoor 13 SEER? I am sure it is "fine" but is it optimal? Is it legal for them to do this?

I keep reading and hearing that both units MUST match SEER ratings. At least, that's what all the HVAC system techs kept saying when they were trying to sell me on why I needed a new AHU unit. Then I file a claim with my home warranty and AHS does it for free, but only installs a 10.5.

What gives? Are HVAC salesmen exaggerating their sales pitches, or is AHS gyping me. It can't be both!

According to Carrier it is a 13 when used with the 48 Outdoor unit

http://www.xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/ss-ph13-04.pdf page 10

So if anything the Airhandler is bigger then you need for your 3 ton outdoor unit, however:

Earlier you said you had a PH10JA048-G which would be the 10 Seer 4 ton heat pump


So to me it looks like you have a 10 Seer 4 ton outdoor unit matched to a 13 Seer indoor unit giving you 10.5 Seer. You win, bet that your old outdoor unit was far worse. :angel:

[jasonblu]

And since an air handler has NO SEER rating. Its legal as far as federal regs.
Ok - so the consensus is that there is no reg, law, code or requirement that requires a home warranty co. like AHS to make my indoor and outdoor units match 13 SEER w/ 13 SEER. When HVAC salesmen that say units MUST match, really they mean they MUST match in order to get the maximum efficiency. Mismatched units work "fine" so long as there is a TxV in the AHU. To an off the street consumer like myself, when they say MUST we take it as this is some sort of law, code and the like. Not so. Not to hijack my own thread, but, are there states whos HVAC codes require matched systems?

Either way. Got it.

Now, just for the sake of conversation and understanding, if you all could clarify something. Some, like the fellah quoted above, say "an AHU has no SEER rating", others say that "the condenser coils in an AHU do have a SEER rating". If compressor coils are an integral, required part of an AHU, isn't it most correct to say an AHU does have a SEER rating, though really you are just talking about the coils in the AHU - The fact that the Payne website lists this AHU as having a SEER rating seems to tell me that the above quote is incorrect and that for all intents and purposes, AHU's do have SEER ratings. What am I missing here?:confused:

[jasonblu]

why do ahs customers always think they are getting scammed???? read your contract. don't expect something for nothing. just because you have a contract with ahs doesn't mean you have to trust your a/c system to one of their contractors, you are still free to call a professional and get what you want. if their service is lacking, you must send them packing. apologies to the late johnnie cochran.:D
Because they do...http://www.ripoffreport.com/Search/ahs.aspx

[FVHowler]

If you got AHS to replace anything, you are ahead of the game. I've had their warranty a few times. More than one HVAC contractor told me: "if you expect AHS to replace something, good luck. So I asked: "so you are here to look after their interest, not mine?" He said yep.

Your unit must have turned to dust, otherswise the contractor would have patched it long enough for warranty to expire. Thats just the way it is.

[dash]

Ok - so the consensus is that there is no reg, law, code or requirement that requires a home warranty co. like AHS to make my indoor and outdoor units match 13 SEER w/ 13 SEER. When HVAC salesmen that say units MUST match, really they mean they MUST match in order to get the maximum efficiency. Mismatched units work "fine" so long as there is a TxV in the AHU. To an off the street consumer like myself, when they say MUST we take it as this is some sort of law, code and the like. Not so. Not to hijack my own thread, but, are there states whos HVAC codes require matched systems?

Either way. Got it.

Now, just for the sake of conversation and understanding, if you all could clarify something. Some, like the fellah quoted above, say "an AHU has no SEER rating", others say that "the condenser coils in an AHU do have a SEER rating". If compressor coils are an integral, required part of an AHU, isn't it most correct to say an AHU does have a SEER rating, though really you are just talking about the coils in the AHU - The fact that the Payne website lists this AHU as having a SEER rating seems to tell me that the above quote is incorrect and that for all intents and purposes, AHU's do have SEER ratings. What am I missing here?:confused:

Florida Code requires a match system,per ARI,etc..

I think you are missing the point in some of the replies,like the new air is certaianly a better match then the old one.
Are you sure it had a TXV added??

[beenthere]

Ok - so the consensus is that there is no reg, law, code or requirement that requires a home warranty co. like AHS to make my indoor and outdoor units match 13 SEER w/ 13 SEER. When HVAC salesmen that say units MUST match, really they mean they MUST match in order to get the maximum efficiency. Mismatched units work "fine" so long as there is a TxV in the AHU. To an off the street consumer like myself, when they say MUST we take it as this is some sort of law, code and the like. Not so. Not to hijack my own thread, but, are there states whos HVAC codes require matched systems?



Mismatched equipment doesn't work fine.

If its not a AHRI match. Then no one knows what capacity its getting. Or what efficiency. Meaning a mismatched system could lose 3/4 ton of capacity.

Some local areas may have their own codes that require it to be a 13 SEER min match. but there is no federal reg.

[Buck_Taylor]

[QUOTE=beenthere;4952572]Mismatched equipment doesn't work fine.

If its not a AHRI match. Then no one knows what capacity its getting. Or what efficiency. Meaning a mismatched system could lose 3/4 ton of capacity.
[QUOTE]

I generally agree with this statement - because of field experience, however I would like to point out that there are actually two definitions of matched coils.

An AHRI matched set is just a set that was modeled or actually tested together. It is supposed to provide a designer the performance specification data necessary to properly select and apply equipment.

Two components do not need an "AHRI match" to perform. In fact even components with AHRI "ratings" do not necessarily provide the capacity nor efficiency published. 3rd party coils are MODELED with computer software by the OEM coil manufacturer. I test systems in-situ for utilities across the U.S. and can tell you without hesitation that the AHRI rating doesn't really guarantee anything. Of course much of this is also related to the actual installations/application.

As a system designer, matching coils and components means you select an evaporator coil with a given capacity at a certain saturation temperature. You then select a compressor and desired condensing temperature to acheive the desired capacity and efficiency. You then select/design your condenser coils to provide that condesning saturation temperature for your selected design temperature. As you know, 95 degrees is what AHRI uses for the rating purpose, but this is not [likely] what any given location will use for design - hence the reason why good OEM's provide extended performance data for the designer to see the actual capacity and efficiency for a local design condition. You will not likely get that informaiton from a 3rd party coil and rating.

A "technical" mismatch is where the evaporator capacity is too small compared to the compressor and results in severly depressed evaporator saturation temperatures. This means less btu's and lower mass flow in the refrigerant as well as a higher lift by the compressor between low and high sides (less capacity and lower efficency) - as well as the regular noteable symptoms.

For the original poster: Air handlers and/or evaporator coils do not have ratings. In fact the condenser component by itself doesn't really have a rating - OEM's apply one to tell you their optimisitic view of what the system can acheive IF you combine it with the same air handler/evaporator coil with the same airflow and low static (that cannot actually be acheived in a real installation) that they used for rating the COMBINATION in a psychrometric test apparatus. Again, AHRI lists both OEM tested combination ratings as well as the software simulated ratings.

If your installer put a TxV in place (properly selected) and your evaporator saturation temperatures are above 40 degrees - you have a relatively efficent system and likely will be very close to the condensers "rated" capacity.

If you post the commssioning data I can tell you very closely what your actual capacity and efficiency is.

I get paid to work with contractors and utilities all across the US on installing high-efficiency equipment properly. I also work indirectly with AHRI and several gov't agencies who deal with these issues as well as several well recognized trade assiciations on all these issues.

I no longer get excited about high SEER anymore because they rarely achieve those ratings with the general state of how poorly most equipment is installed. My comments are not directed at anyone online here. Most of the posting contractors online here seem to have a good handle on all the issues - unfortunately most homeowners can only compare price.... So in short - if you've got a unit thats actually installed properly (this can be a big IF) and operating at it's rated efficeincy - you are well ahead of the game.