learning geo thermal

[dvschillin]

Alright guys I have not visited in awhile. am still going to school and trying to break into the field. there is a new company in town that is selling strictly geo thermal but they are as green as I am My school barely touches on geo thermal.

So where do you learn about geo thermal? I have always thought I would go into the green part of hvac but how

[mo geo man]

Don't know if this is what you are looking for but the best I have come across is Linn State Technical College Linn, MO. The entire campus is geo and the lab has at least 12 geo units.

[steeveau]

I view IGSHPA as an industry leader in education. I suggest checking out their latest design and installation manual. I went through their certified designer program. There are also three day installer certification courses. HeatSpring Learning Institute has created a business just around training installers.

[gilbert716]

can you send me more info?

I view IGSHPA as an industry leader in education. I suggest checking out their latest design and installation manual. I went through their certified designer program. There are also three day installer certification courses. HeatSpring Learning Institute has created a business just around training installers.

[cnoe88]

WaterFurnace offers a great training program on installation and service. I dont know if you have to be a dealer or not to go through the program, my company sent me to it a year or so ago

[beriszl]

nice information in your posts... you can send me the more info on that....http://www.chasesaunders.co.uk

[Air Doctor, Inc]

Iteach geo at an adult ed program in NY. I have a hands on trainer. I also teach trouble shooting etc.

[herohero]

Iteach geo at an adult ed program in NY. I have a hands on trainer. I also teach trouble shooting etc.

So, it would be so kind of you to share with us your training documents, thanks in advance :).

[geostuff]

Best way to learn is on the job training with someone expierenced.

[mstrblstr3]

Best way to learn is on the job training with someone expierenced.

You stoled my thought. Try learning how to do a horizontal loop from a book. When you get that first wet caving nightmare you'll probably panic and give up. Its hard to make any money in this business if you can't install your own loops. it's not that hard but you have to know that it can be done no matter how hard it seems.

[bro]

HI, guys, I am thinking going into geo-thermo on my own personnal home. been researching it for some time now. I find the best way to find out what equipment to choose is to ask the people that work on this type of equipment and find out what equipment they have the least amount of problems with. Naturally, I will be bringing in a well driller to sink the wells and do the grouting, price of propane is killing me , so I have to do something.also,maybe it's me ,but, has anyone else ever noticed ,there is no getting ahead of the efficiency curve? the higher the ratings the higher the costs. you quote prices on jobs and the difference is you pay up front for what you will be saving and that turns alot of people off to the work.let's not forget how bad this economy is doing.:gah: thanks for your help.

[darctangent]

Alright guys I have not visited in awhile. am still going to school and trying to break into the field. there is a new company in town that is selling strictly geo thermal but they are as green as I am My school barely touches on geo thermal.

So where do you learn about geo thermal? I have always thought I would go into the green part of hvac but how

The first thing to understand about "green" hvac is that regardless of the technology you employ- what I think of as the "power plant" you need very strong fundamentals to build a good system with low energy costs.

Green HVAC is about efficient energy generation and collection to be sure- but is is equally important that we distribute the energy in an efficient manner.
These things depend on strong fundamentals-electrical, refrigeration cycle, air and water distribution, combustion... you get the idea.

Most guys in the trade don't ever really master these fundamentals, so they can't ever really get the most out of a system, conventional or "green" regardless of weather they went to a trade school or not.

I can "green" a furnace, or I can install geothermal, Solar-thermal or solar-PV- it all comes down to fundamentals.

If Geothermal gets you all jonesed, work on conventional heat pumps, because that all geothermal is- a conventional HP redone to use the ground as a heat sink instead of the outside air, just that simple.

By the way, the units these guys are talking about aren't the only game in town.

http://www.earthlinked.com/ (http://www.earthlinked.com/)

[acmanko]

There is only one difference in an air to air HP and a geothermal HP and that is the medium used to reject heat, which is water. Other than that, they are the same puppy.

[darctangent]

There is only one difference in an air to air HP and a geothermal HP and that is the medium used to reject heat, which is water. Other than that, they are the same puppy.

not always.

You water source guys really do have a one track mind.

[acmanko]

not always.

You water source guys really do have a one track mind.

Of course they are. For geothermal, you need to know pumps, water temp in and water temp out. The refrigerant changes state depending on temperature. it could care less if the temps are from water or air.

[darctangent]

Of course they are. For geothermal, you need to know pumps, water temp in and water temp out. The refrigerant changes state depending on temperature. it could care less if the temps are from water or air.

I do geo, I use no water (unless I'm heating domestic or hydronic water)

Like I said, one track mind.

Those other manufacturers like to deny the existence of any technology outside of their own.

there are pros and cons to using water. I do without just fine. IGSHPA and friends have got you guys brainwashed.

[acmanko]

I do geo, I use no water (unless I'm heating domestic or hydronic water)

Like I said, one track mind.

Those other manufacturers like to deny the existence of any technology outside of their own.

there are pros and cons to using water. I do without just fine. IGSHPA and friends have got you guys brainwashed.

So what fluid do you use for the loop?

[darctangent]

So what fluid do you use for the loop?


fluid? not exactly.

R-22

r-407c

r-410a

it's called "DX" or "direct exchange"

Horizontal loop fields, vertical and diagonal bore holes.

[acmanko]

fluid? not exactly.

R-22

r-407c

r-410a

it's called "DX" or "direct exchange"

Horizontal loop fields, vertical and diagonal bore holes.

so what's the majic fluid that goes into the Horizontal loop fields, vertical and diagonal bore holes.

its called DX or Direct expansion.

[darctangent]

so what's the majic fluid that goes into the Horizontal loop fields, vertical and diagonal bore holes.

its called DX or Direct expansion.

same answer.

sorry, but you aren't listening.

r-22

r-407c

r-410a

[darctangent]

If the light isn't going on by now, I'm going to start worrying.

:gah:

[darctangent]

its called DX or Direct expansion.

no, it's called DX or direct exchange.

But, hey we all make mistakes.

you're thinking of the other end of the system.

Like I said, everybody thinks they already know what's out there.

Mouth open, ears closed,

instead of the other way around.

[acmanko]

same answer.

sorry, but you aren't listening.

r-22

r-407c

r-410a

I can't think of a loop that has refrigerant in it. refrigerant is in the AC system , the loop that makes it geothermal has water in it.

[darctangent]

I can't think of a loop that has refrigerant in it. refrigerant is in the AC system , the loop that makes it geothermal has water in it.

What do you call the refrigerant cycle? Isn't that a loop with a pump in the middle?

[acmanko]

What do you call the refrigerant cycle? Isn't that a loop with a pump in the middle?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with a unit being geothermal. You can get heat from the air for a regular Heat Pump or heat from the ground with a Geothermal Heat Pump. Water is whats used in a geothermal system to transfer the heat from the ground via a pump and a tube in a tube condenser.

[darctangent]

Yes, but that has nothing to do with a unit being geothermal. You can get heat from the air for a regular Heat Pump or heat from the ground with a Geothermal Heat Pump. Water is whats used in a geothermal system to transfer the heat from the ground via a pump and a tube in a tube condenser.

Oh lord.

ok, envision this:

you've got a conventional Heat Pump, but it's got a leak in the condenser coil.

Oh, darnit, what to do?

what to do, what to do?

Whatever could we do?

hmmm....

How about this?

we dig a trench in the ground and lay tubing in the trench, then we fill in the trench. we then connect the tubing to the condenser where it used to connect to the old condenser coil.

now, the ground is the condenser. see?

refrigerant travels through the "loop" or the "condenser coil" only now it's in the ground.

no water.

It's a little simplified, but that's how it all started.

How is that NOT "geothermal" ?

[tedkidd]

Instead of putting plastic in the ground and using water as an intermediate medium of heat transfer, you put copper in the ground and go direct. Hence direct exchange.

Requires much less drilling, and a lot of refrigerant.

[darctangent]

Instead of putting plastic in the ground and using water as an intermediate medium of heat transfer, you put copper in the ground and go direct. Hence direct exchange.

Requires much less drilling, and a lot of refrigerant.

yes, yes, and yes.

[acmanko]

yes, yes, and yes.

Ok, I see where you are coming from. Next question. Why not just break out the torch and repair the leak in the coil?

[darctangent]

Ok, I see where you are coming from. Next question. Why not just break out the torch and repair the leak in the coil?

you are a tough crowd.

[tedkidd]

:-)

Bring a big recovery tank!

[darctangent]

:-)

Bring a big recovery tank!

I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.

[can2man]

I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.

Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

[tedkidd]

I'll take the cost of 2 jugs of refrigerant over the cost of drilling 3-5 times as much. I can also use better grout for better heat transfer.

Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my :.02:


Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.

[can2man]

Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my :.02:



I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.

Thank you

[darctangent]

I've got to get ready for an install tomorrow so this will be a little brief, but I'll try to cover some territory here.


Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

It depends on the application, but 3/8 & 1/2 or 5/8 are typical. When it comes to length, again system design will vary, but with vertical and diagonal bore holes you are talking about (1)100ft bore per ton with 100ft down, 100ft up so 200ft of tubing per ton, plus the copper to get back to the heat pump. I have never had a system that was designed for horizontal loops, but as I recall there are similar figures for that as well. COPs vary dependent on ground temp and soil conditions, but about 3 to 4.5. Nominal charge is about 7 lbs/ per ton on forced air with Domestic hot water, less on hydronic only systems. Charge is a little hard to explain, but very very easy to do. It relates to the metering system which is proprietary to Eathlinked. Suffice to say the metering system is like the old school refrigerators with a float arm in a reservoir of refrigerant. It sounds odd by modern thinking, but it's actually very efficient.- that's just part of it though- it's actually quite hard to explain in print only.

Darctangent, are you being argumentative or trying to educate?

If you are trying to educate it would be great if your posts had a bit more substance. For example, you could state that a direct exchange system uses 4lb + 4lb per ton, or a discussion about enhanced thermal grout/silica mixes and what you mean about your ability to use "better grout".

Without that detail you might simply appear argumentative. That's my :.02:



I believe you have 70 ft cores with 1-2 per ton. Not really set up for trenches yet, but they are experimenting with it in Tennessee, along with using the foundation perimeter on new homes. COP's are available at ahri I believe.

Not trying to argue at all. If you read back to where this all started, I was simply pointing out that there is more to geothermal/ground source than water based systems. Then I got multiple responses essentially denying what I was saying. If there was an argument, it was about the requirement of using water in ground source systems. If you read back, I pointed out that I thought there were advantages and disadvantages to water source (as apposed to DX) Neither technology is perfect.

On grout, bentonite based grout has a really nasty habit of stratifying in the bore hole causing the grout to fall away from the tubing and therefore poor thermal conductivity. My last two jobs I've used a cementitious grout called "supergrout"

Another point- as I referenced earlier, horizontal loops do exist, and in some areas are the preferred method of install, but that in not the case in Colorado.

All of this is dependant on the design laid out by the manufacturer, in this case Eathlinked.

[tedkidd]

I'm no better at avoiding getting sucked in. Key is attempt to just give good information, particularly in response to ignorant and argumentative posts. Read Beenthere's stuff, he's usually really good at this (and some of the other guys).

To some extent this is like kindergarten, everybody making noise wanting attention, but much is just noise without substance. People reading quickly sort through a lot of chaff to find good seeds. Only so much can stick (why fill the grey up with garbage, right?). The childish posts tend to blow away like deleting junk mail.

Just thinking a lot of your stuff has seeds. Don't let others suck you into posting chaff.

[durussel78]

I worked for a company that sold waterfurnace and I think it was called international units. They got something back in arounds 1500 tax credit. The systems worked great once tuned in and would have a pay back of 100% in 11 years. But WOW the up front cost, did I say WOW, we did pond, horizontal earth closed loop, vertical well closed loop, and pump and dump.
Here is what the fancy brochures leave out:

Your yard / landscaping will need a complete overhaul once the heavy equipment is out, so if you can aford a GEO chances are you will at least have to replace about 10 - 15 grand in landscaping.
Well drilling company - about 2000 a hole 4-6 in at 150 feet down.
Dive team for pond loop - about 120 an hour.
Heavy equipment rental is around 1600 a week for a loader and backhoe.
Glycol - lots of the alien slime.
A mile of sheet metal for your air handling units.
Lots and lots of time for tuning.
2 in diameter pipes punching through your basement wall (real fun to work with especially when they are cold).
The actual water to air units weigh a lot so heavy some of the bigger members of your crew handy.
Low end Geo for a small home was about 30-40,000 dollars at 2500-4000 ft squared and about 65-120,000 dollars at 5000-12000 ft squared homes

Just wanted to let you know some of the un-glorious things about GEO, it is a great idea, but not in the north for small companies trying to profit. Just a headache, schools make it seem great (mine did), but unless you are out trying to sell people this stuff and trying to put it in then I would not waste my time with my nose in a book trying to memorize calculations and practicing design principals. You need to find a local that does it, volunteer to help on a system and get your own perspective, I know after getting out of the HVACR design program at school and actually doing it I was left with a sour taste.

But IGSHPA is the source for all GEO.

[darctangent]

I worked for a company that sold waterfurnace and I think it was called international units. They got something back in arounds 1500 tax credit. The systems worked great once tuned in and would have a pay back of 100% in 11 years. But WOW the up front cost, did I say WOW, we did pond, horizontal earth closed loop, vertical well closed loop, and pump and dump.
Here is what the fancy brochures leave out:

Your yard / landscaping will need a complete overhaul once the heavy equipment is out, so if you can aford a GEO chances are you will at least have to replace about 10 - 15 grand in landscaping.
Well drilling company - about 2000 a hole 4-6 in at 150 feet down.
Dive team for pond loop - about 120 an hour.
Heavy equipment rental is around 1600 a week for a loader and backhoe.
Glycol - lots of the alien slime.
A mile of sheet metal for your air handling units.
Lots and lots of time for tuning.
2 in diameter pipes punching through your basement wall (real fun to work with especially when they are cold).
The actual water to air units weigh a lot so heavy some of the bigger members of your crew handy.
Low end Geo for a small home was about 30-40,000 dollars at 2500-4000 ft squared and about 65-120,000 dollars at 5000-12000 ft squared homes

Just wanted to let you know some of the un-glorious things about GEO, it is a great idea, but not in the north for small companies trying to profit. Just a headache, schools make it seem great (mine did), but unless you are out trying to sell people this stuff and trying to put it in then I would not waste my time with my nose in a book trying to memorize calculations and practicing design principals. You need to find a local that does it, volunteer to help on a system and get your own perspective, I know after getting out of the HVACR design program at school and actually doing it I was left with a sour taste.

But IGSHPA is the source for all GEO.

have you read this thread or not?

[heebeegeebee]

I just got done reading this thread and I am now having second thoughts. I have a meeting with Water Furnace on Monday to become a dealer here in MN. and I don't know if this is even worth pursuing. I want to become a green contractor and sell things like this. But not if it is not going to make me any money or be a huge pita. Can any of you tell me if its worth trying or is it just a waste of my time, Thanks.

[acmanko]

They will reduce power bills by a lot, but if you have no background in them, it would be better to talk with a competitor to see if you could go on some installs and service calls before you get your feet wet.

[heebeegeebee]

Water Furnace says that they will train me on Installation. I would be surprised if a competitor would train me to compete with them.

[tedkidd]

heebe, you heat with oil or propane? Any relatives that do? Might be the place to start. Geo is a no-brainer if you don't have natural gas, and getting your feet wet on a house you have unlimited access to will help accelerate your learning curve and keep mistakes from being so expensive.

[heebeegeebee]

That is a good Idea. Thanks.

[Galen Manapat]

yes, yes, and yes.

I researched a company up north innovating in geo, burying refrigerant lines in the ground. It is particularly great if it touches or is bathed in water. Heat transfer can be very efficient, but there is a very big BUT!

Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

Traditional hvac copper properly soldered (and it isn't 40% of the time, in my experience) generally does not deteriorate from the inside, often can be reused, but what happens when you run long copper suction, liquid line sets and bury them in an environment that is even slightly acidic? The lines may develop leaks from the outside going in.

Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?

There is a reason modern geo drillers and installers use polypropolene or similar stuff. The stuff has to work long term. Best thing to do with a line set is sink it in a large body of water if possible.

[tedkidd]

Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?


I believe they install with some type of leach bag that has to be replaced every so often for that very reason.

With inverter driven load matching air source, and probably soon the same for ground source, it seems this technology will have a hard time staying ahead enough to justify these issues...

I don't think they have TXV's 60 feet down, definitely not going to have electronic valves.

[Galen Manapat]

Interesting. I have heard of this but have never seen a system. What size of copper line do you use and how many feet per ton? Say on a horizontal system. What are the cop"s? How do you work out your charge - based on length of pipe in the ground?

To the person that thinks all you have to do is buy two jugs of refrigerent. Think about this. We are not using pure refrigerents anymore. We are using blends and azeotropes. That is to say when you use say R410a, it is a combinationof 4 different gasses and they leak out aout different rates.

The official recommendation is that "top off" is risky. Complete replacement of the refrigerent is recommended because these new gasses are NOT pure refrigerants. They are supposed to be weighed in.

[darctangent]

This is just more of the same. People talking with closed ears.


I researched a company up north innovating in geo, burying refrigerant lines in the ground. It is particularly great if it touches or is bathed in water. Heat transfer can be very efficient, but there is a very big BUT!

Standard water lines copper lines can corrode and / or develop pinhole leaks at 20 years, depends on quality of copper and what kind of water runs through them. That is why cities try and make city water slightly alkaline.

Traditional hvac copper properly soldered (and it isn't 40% of the time, in my experience) generally does not deteriorate from the inside, often can be reused, but what happens when you run long copper suction, liquid line sets and bury them in an environment that is even slightly acidic? The lines may develop leaks from the outside going in.

Wanna fix it? Wanna guarantee your work and repair developed leaks for free?

There is a reason modern geo drillers and installers use polypropolene or similar stuff. The stuff has to work long term. Best thing to do with a line set is sink it in a large body of water if possible.

Copper is entirely stable in most soils. It comes from the soil and is quite happy there. In the rare instance that the soil is found to have conditions that deplete (corrode) copper it can be protected by means of impressed electrical current. Basically corrosion depletes the copper of ions. If you prevent that from happening corrosion can't take place.

My systems do have a warranty.

modern? are you saying my methods are backwards? antiquated?

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?




I believe they install with some type of leach bag that has to be replaced every so often for that very reason.

With inverter driven load matching air source, and probably soon the same for ground source, it seems this technology will have a hard time staying ahead enough to justify these issues...

I don't think they have TXV's 60 feet down, definitely not going to have electronic valves.

They are keeping it quiet about it but Earthlinked does have a unit running somewhere in France as I understand it. I'm not sure if it's a VFD. I'm thinking it's a more residential friendly variable speed compressor, but I'm guessing.

The current metering setup maintains near zero superheat and subcooling figures in normal operation. how much control do you want?







To the person that thinks all you have to do is buy two jugs of refrigerent. Think about this. We are not using pure refrigerents anymore. We are using blends and azeotropes. That is to say when you use say R410a, it is a combinationof 4 different gasses and they leak out aout different rates.

The official recommendation is that "top off" is risky. Complete replacement of the refrigerent is recommended because these new gasses are NOT pure refrigerants. They are supposed to be weighed in.

That would be me. Mr. Two Jugs.:putergreet:

I was referring to the relative difference in installation cost. of course there's more to it than that. I didn't get my mechanical license in a box of crakerjacks. As to what you are referencing, I'm not sure.

First, I don't recall saying that I use 410a. wait a minute. I guess I did, but that was intended more as theoretical. OK, Let's go with that.

You said that that R-410a has four constituent parts. I don't get that. Even if you break down 410a to it's atomic elements you only get three. Carbon, Hydrogen and Fluorine. If you do it as most properly trained and educated techs would, you get R-32( difluoromethane or CH2F2) and R-125 (pentafluoroethane CHF2CF3) So that's two fairly stable compounds, not Four.

Do you know what the glide on R-410a is? It's pretty damn small. About .1 degree Kelvin or .2 degree Fahrenheit at room temperature just off the top of my head. Frankly none of that makes a difference to me when the job gets done right. When my brazes are correct there is really no concern for me.

By the way, I'm always hearing about acceptable leak rates on water source loops. What's up with that anyway?

[tedkidd]

Good post. I do recall something about running an electrical charge through the lines...




By the way, I'm always hearing about acceptable leak rates on water source loops. What's up with that anyway?:eek:

[darctangent]

Good post. I do recall something about running an electrical charge through the lines...

:eek:

LOL. We should talk sometime. I do respect your ability to keep up with many different aspects of the HVAC profession.

That, and I've got all kinds of nutty ideas for HVAC.

[johnsonj]

I just started off in Geothermal and Solar recently. I too was a bit limited on my local resources. I ended up going to Dallas to work with a company for a couple of weeks to get my feet wet. It was fantastic experience and the volume of WF installs during those two weeks gave me great hands on.