Experts, please help! Sooo confused

[rgar2019]

I think I made a mistake by receiving approx. 8-proposals. For the most part, all 8 contractors are offering something different, whether it's in brand, tonage, HP,gas,elec. vs/non-vs, etc... I've been able to narrow the selection to just 3, however, I'm finding it difficult to chose. The following 3 consist of:

1) Trane 16 seer XR 3-ton gas furnace a/c system, using the following equipment: 4TTR5036E1000A, 4TXCCB004CC3HCA, TUD1B080A9H41B.

2) Trane XR15 3.5 ton 15 SEER heat pump system w/4TWR5042E1000A, 4TEE3C07A1000A, BAYHTR1408000C. (According to contractor, this has vs?)

3)Carrier Comfort Puron 3.5 ton 15.3 seer heat pump w/25HCB542A003, FX4CNF048T00 W/8KW aux. heat

From what I understand, the only system above that has a vs blower, is #2. Can someone please confirm this. Is having the vs that important, where I should not even consider the other two? Also, if you notice, system 1 is a 3-ton system and systems 2,3 are 3.5 ton. My home's current system is 3.5 ton ac w/gas furnace. Contractor 1 did a condensed/modified manual j heat load calculation. He took into account the sq. footage, number of windows, type of windows, direction of house, accounted for 6-people in the house, #of elec. equip. in house and so on. He advised, based on his calculations, that my house would work most efficiently with a 3-ton system. One of the other contractors disagreed, saying that if you put in a 3-ton system, as the system gets older, it will lose its efficiency as a 3-ton and begin to struggle and try to maintain the temperature and ultimately begin to function more like a 2-2.5 ton system. Whereas if you install a 3.5 ton, which is what I currently have, it would not struggle as much as it gets older. Is there any truth to this? Can you see why I'm so confused and don't want to install the wrong system. The contractor that recommended the 3-ton said that he would ultimately be responsible if the 3-ton did not perform to our liking and change it out. I still would not want to go through this regardless. So if you could please shed some light on this and try to make some sense of this all I would greatly appreciate it. Please try not to sway from the concerns I have outlined. Sometimes I ask for advice on this site and it turns into a big pis***match between some of the so called expert panelist who go off on a totally different topic, making it more confusing and never receiving any answers/advice to the originl question. Anyway, thanks in advance for your assistance.

[dman0672]

Really all of the information you need is on the Web. Since you consulted 8 contractors for a replacement I assume your not going to be easy to please. No offense. The best bet is to find a contractor you trust and has a good track record. Ask for references. As for the sizing issue, is the 3.5 ton currently meeting your needs? Remember good, fast, and cheap pick two.

[rgar2019]

Really all of the information you need is on the Web. Since you consulted 8 contractors for a replacement I assume your not going to be easy to please. No offense. The best bet is to find a contractor you trust and has a good track record. Ask for references. As for the sizing issue, is the 3.5 ton currently meeting your needs? Remember good, fast, and cheap pick two.

It's not that I'm hard to please, it's just that after reading many past and recent posts on this site with very good advice, unfortunately, the majority of the contractors I called, did absolutely nothing discussed on this site. Therefore, I called around until I finally found 2 that actually performed a manual j heat load calculation. This is a major expense for me and I would like to make an informed decision and not just hire one of the companies discussed on this site that hires unexperienced help from the streets if you know what I mean.

[air2spare]

I charge customers for a computerized heatload with duct sizing then I tell them if they're looking for cheap then fire away, I just sold you the blueprint for them to go by. Pay for a proper heatload.

[jjust61]

I think I made a mistake by receiving approx. 8-proposals. For the most part, all 8 contractors are offering something different, whether it's in brand, tonage, HP,gas,elec. vs/non-vs, etc... I've been able to narrow the selection to just 3, however, I'm finding it difficult to chose. The following 3 consist of:

1) Trane 16 seer XR 3-ton gas furnace a/c system, using the following equipment: 4TTR5036E1000A, 4TXCCB004CC3HCA, TUD1B080A9H41B.

2) Trane XR15 3.5 ton 15 SEER heat pump system w/4TWR5042E1000A, 4TEE3C07A1000A, BAYHTR1408000C. (According to contractor, this has vs?)

3)Carrier Comfort Puron 3.5 ton 15.3 seer heat pump w/25HCB542A003, FX4CNF048T00 W/8KW aux. heat

From what I understand, the only system above that has a vs blower, is #2. Can someone please confirm this. Is having the vs that important, where I should not even consider the other two? Also, if you notice, system 1 is a 3-ton system and systems 2,3 are 3.5 ton. My home's current system is 3.5 ton ac w/gas furnace. Contractor 1 did a condensed/modified manual j heat load calculation. He took into account the sq. footage, number of windows, type of windows, direction of house, accounted for 6-people in the house, #of elec. equip. in house and so on. He advised, based on his calculations, that my house would work most efficiently with a 3-ton system. One of the other contractors disagreed, saying that if you put in a 3-ton system, as the system gets older, it will lose its efficiency as a 3-ton and begin to struggle and try to maintain the temperature and ultimately begin to function more like a 2-2.5 ton system. Whereas if you install a 3.5 ton, which is what I currently have, it would not struggle as much as it gets older. Is there any truth to this? Can you see why I'm so confused and don't want to install the wrong system. The contractor that recommended the 3-ton said that he would ultimately be responsible if the 3-ton did not perform to our liking and change it out. I still would not want to go through this regardless. So if you could please shed some light on this and try to make some sense of this all I would greatly appreciate it. Please try not to sway from the concerns I have outlined. Sometimes I ask for advice on this site and it turns into a big pis***match between some of the so called expert panelist who go off on a totally different topic, making it more confusing and never receiving any answers/advice to the originl question. Anyway, thanks in advance for your assistance.



I recomend gas heat over HP and or electric heat if you live north of Georgia and already have gas in your neighborhood. Most if not all mfg's offer Variable Speed blowers. They are all about quiet and efficient operation and very recomended. As far as size goes you can't get more accurate than a man J. As far as loosing efficiently, if your system is sized correctly and ducts are correctly sized your A/C unit will be a 3 ton for it's natural life. If old age efficiently loss was a real issue then the man J would account for it. Good luck

[udarrell]

If you keep clean filters in place & keep the coils clean, with good maintenance the 3-Ton will continue to deliver its nominal 3-ton of cooling.


"The contractor that recommended the 3-ton said that he would ultimately be responsible if the 3-ton did not perform to your liking and change it out."
The other claim that the unit will continue to lose performance therefore you should install a 3.5-Ton, IMO, is bogus.

Additionally, the duct system & air handler may have only been delivering 3-ton. If it were only delivering say 1100-CFM of airflow, then it wouldn't be delivering 3.5-ton of heat transfer, but closer to 3-ton.

There is a better opportunity to have a more efficient duct system & airflow with the 3-ton unit on that existing duct system. Many duct systems are undersized, even for 3.5-Tonnage units.

For many reasons, oversizing can be a huge mistake.

You can always do things to reduce the load calc., but if the condenser is oversized your options are voided.

You could Click on udarrell, & review my posts & non commercial web pages.

Then, Use your own judgment, NOT mine. :det: - Darrell

[amd]

I recomend gas heat over HP and or electric heat if you live north of Georgia and already have gas in your neighborhood.

You made that statement without knowing rgar2019's electricity rate.

Blanket statements don't cut it, especially when it comes deciding between a heatpump and furnace.

Important factors:

- Electricity and gas rates
- Balance point when sized for cooling
- Duct system
- Electrical service available
- Climate

Dual fuel (HP + furnace) offers the best of both in many cases.

[jjust61]

You made that statement without knowing rgar2019's electricity rate.

Blanket statements don't cut it, especially when it comes deciding between a heatpump and furnace.

Important factors:

- Electricity and gas rates
- Balance point when sized for cooling
- Duct system
- Electrical service available
- Climate

Dual fuel (HP + furnace) offers the best of both in many cases.



"Heat pump shmeat pump Vern, where have you been?"

[Jack2007]

You made that statement without knowing rgar2019's electricity rate.

Blanket statements don't cut it, especially when it comes deciding between a heatpump and furnace.

Important factors:

- Electricity and gas rates
- Balance point when sized for cooling
- Duct system
- Electrical service available
- Climate

Dual fuel (HP + furnace) offers the best of both in many cases.
Living 20 miles NE of Philadelphia, I must agree. My electric company gives a good discount for using HP, and I have saved about $1200 (on electric and oil bill) for the year.

EDIT: I just did a calculation for the ENTIRE year including this past summer and my total savings going from an AC / OIL to a Heat Pump and new OIL heater is..$1647.93
.

[rgar2019]

You made that statement without knowing rgar2019's electricity rate.

Blanket statements don't cut it, especially when it comes deciding between a heatpump and furnace.

Important factors:

- Electricity and gas rates
- Balance point when sized for cooling
- Duct system
- Electrical service available
- Climate

Dual fuel (HP + furnace) offers the best of both in many cases.

It seems like you and Udarell have extensive experience in this field based on your posts. Based on this, if it were you, put aside all other factors, which system that I mentioned would you go with and why. I reside in central FL. so as you can imagine, the cooling season is extensive compared to the heating season.

[amd]

See signature, everything I post is based on theory - not field experience. Anyone who has "professional member" under their under name works in the field.

To decide what kind of system to get, start with finding a contractor who does heat gain/loss calculations.

Heatpumps are very efficient when electric backup isn't needed; in cold climates, the second source of heat often carries the majority of the heating load.

A HP should always be sized for cooling; the temperature at which backup is required can be found by graphing the heat output and heat loss at various outdoor temperatures. (performance data will be required)

For example:

http://c.managemyhome.com/Images/Air_Conditioning_and_Heat_Pumps/Heat_pumps/1272_R.gif

In areas with average or above average electric rates, it only makes sense to use electric backup if most of the heating season is spent above the balance point. In colder climates (2-3 months below 32F) where gas is available, I would only consider a heatpump in a dual fuel setup.

[rgar2019]

See signature, everything I post is based on theory - not field experience. Anyone who has "professional member" under their under name works in the field.

To decide what kind of system to get, start with finding a contractor who does heat gain/loss calculations.

Heatpumps are very efficient when electric backup isn't needed; in cold climates, the second source of heat often carries the majority of the heating load.

A HP should always be sized for cooling; the temperature at which backup is required can be found by graphing the heat output and heat loss at various outdoor temperatures. (performance data will be required)

For example:

http://c.managemyhome.com/Images/Air_Conditioning_and_Heat_Pumps/Heat_pumps/1272_R.gif

In areas with average or above average electric rates, it only makes sense to use electric backup if most of the heating season is spent above the balance point. In colder climates (2-3 months below 32F) where gas is available, I would only consider a heatpump in a dual fuel setup.

Well, like I mentioned earlier, I currently have gas heat, which we hardly ever turn on living in central Florida. I guess that's why so many houses have HP's installed due to the easy winters here. However, you still have not answered my question. Which system would you go with and why?

[udarrell]

It seems like you and Udarell have extensive experience in this field based on your posts. Based on this, if it were you, put aside all other factors, which system that I mentioned would you go with and why. I reside in central FL. so as you can imagine, the cooling season is extensive compared to the heating season.
I was watching Monday night football, Dallas cowboys just won 21 to 7.

I prefer not to make final system preferences, as we are not there on site & there are too many unknowns.

You are there & you can better comprehend what should work best for you.

I am in general agreement with amd's post.

Also, the quality of the install is a major factor & is covered on my linked pages. The ductwork system & airflow are critical factors to efficient performance.

You might ask:
Will you flow dry nitrogen while brazing.
Charge a R410A system to around 200 PSIG with dry nitrogen and leak test.

The Triple Evacuation Method is normally done on refrigeration systems, it is good practice on moisture sensitive R-410A central air conditioning systems.

A sight-glass moisture indicator, is good to have on TXV metered systems.

Then first, Airflow should be checked & confirmed to be correct, then use both superheat & subcooling to verify a proper charged system. See if it will hold a vacuum within tolerances.

There is more but will stop here.

Learn all you can as fast as you can... Good Luck. - Darrell :pop:

[amd]

Well, like I mentioned earlier, I currently have gas heat, which we hardly ever turn on living in central Florida. I guess that's why so many houses have HP's installed due to the easy winters here. However, you still have not answered my question. Which system would you go with and why?

Post your electricity and gas rates.

How cold does it get there?

If heat strips will be required to use a HP, make sure the contractor takes a good look at your electrical panel; a 200 amp service is a must for 10+ kw.

Provided that your electric rate is reasonable, a heatpump with electric backup is probably the best option in florida. (Especially if you don't use it much and the outdoor temp doesn't fall below 32F frequently.) If the outdoor temperature doesn't fall below 45F/7C, you won't even need backup to temper the air during defrost cycles.

For sizing, you can make the call based on the performance of your 3.5 ton unit or base it on the result of a proper load calculation. If the existing unit cycled during the hottest days each year, downsize.

Between quotes 1 & 2, installations being equal, performance will be similar; it's really up to you.

-----------------------------------
Important consideration re: heatpumps

Heatpumps supply luke warm to slightly cool air (relative to body temp) and can be considered "set it and forget it" type systems. If you like to bring the temp up quickly or want hot supply air, get a furnace.

[rgar2019]

Post your electricity and gas rates.

How cold does it get there?

If heat strips will be required to use a HP, make sure the contractor takes a good look at your electrical panel; a 200 amp service is a must for 10+ kw.

Provided that your electric rate is reasonable, a heatpump with electric backup is probably the best option in florida. (Especially if you don't use it much and the outdoor temp doesn't fall below 32F frequently.) If the outdoor temperature doesn't fall below 45F/7C, you won't even need backup to temper the air during defrost cycles.

For sizing, you can make the call based on the performance of your 3.5 ton unit or base it on the result of a proper load calculation. If the existing unit cycled during the hottest days each year, downsize.

Between quotes 1 & 2, installations being equal, performance will be similar; it's really up to you.

-----------------------------------
Important consideration re: heatpumps

Heatpumps supply luke warm to slightly cool air (relative to body temp) and can be considered "set it and forget it" type systems. If you like to bring the temp up quickly or want hot supply air, get a furnace.

According to my current FPL statement it states as follows:
Fuel:(for 1000 kwh at $0.053510) (Over 1000 kwh at $0.063510)
I used 2560 kwh this month or 85 kwh/day.
As for the temperature here, as you can imagine, during the summer time, which I consider begins around march/april, it's about 95 degrees./ Winter temps. vary but avg. near 70's. It does drop down into the 40's during night time occassionally.
My current 3.5 ton system doesn't seem to short cycle, but it does run considerably when its on. As for the electrical panel, the price of the job for the HP included updating the breaker to handle the aux. heat. That's where I stumped on the contractor recommending a 3-ton system for my 1820 sq. ft. home. He believes it would be most efficient system and says it would work. Everybody else recommended 3.5 ton w/exception of one who wanted to install 4-ton. Can you see why I'm so confused?

[gary_g]

According to my current FPL statement it states as follows:
Fuel:(for 1000 kwh at $0.053510) (Over 1000 kwh at $0.063510)


Make sure that your electric rate is a delivered price. Delivered = generation + transmission + distribution.

Compare the cost of 1 million btu's of heat.

Electric resistance at 6.3 cents per kw-hr delivered price:
(1,000,000 / 3414 btu per kw-hr) x .063
= $18.45

Heat pump with C.O.P. = 3.7 at 45F ambient, same electric rate:
(1,000,000 / 3414) x .063 / 3.7
= $4.98

Provide your price for natural gas. Estimate $1.25 per therm and 80% efficient furnace.
(1,000,000 / 100,000 btu per therm) x 1.25 / .8
= $15.63

Take care.

[udarrell]

Post your electricity and gas rates. How cold does it get there?

If heat strips will be required to use a HP, make sure the contractor takes a good look at your electrical panel; a 200 amp service is a must for 10+ kw.

Provided that your electric rate is reasonable, a heatpump with electric backup is probably the best option in florida. (Especially if you don't use it much and the outdoor temp doesn't fall below 32F frequently.) If the outdoor temperature doesn't fall below 45F/7C, you won't even need backup to temper the air during defrost cycles.

For sizing, you can make the call based on the performance of your 3.5 ton unit or base it on the result of a proper load calculation. If the existing unit cycled during the hottest days each year, downsize.

Between quotes 1 & 2, installations being equal, performance will be similar; it's really up to you.
-----------------------------------
Important consideration re: heatpumps

Heatpumps supply luke warm to slightly cool air (relative to body temp) and can be considered "set it and forget it" type systems. If you like to bring the temp up quickly or want hot supply air, get a furnace.

That is excellent advice except for a qualification on the statement:

For sizing, you can make the call based on the performance of your 3.5 ton unit or base it on the result of a proper load calculation. If the existing unit cycled during the hottest days each year, downsize.
An accurate load calc is the safest & best sizing way to go; because the Tech would have to verify the duct system was well sealed, if needed, properly insulated, & with the correct CFM going through the cooling coil. Those & more factors could cause the 3.5-ton to not cycle on the hottest days.

Additionally, Blower-Door testing should be performed, the air infiltration rate could even be well above .5 air changes per hour (ACH). That could be brought down to .2-ACH reducing both the sensible & latent outdoor infiltration loads.

There are more load factors that could be cost effectively reduced, so that a 3-Ton could handle the load, & also with optimal-ducting there would be a much lower HP wattage demand on the indoor blower motor, improving the 3-Ton systems EER & SEER Ratings over the 3.5-Ton's.

Your post was excellent; mine are never what they ought to be; my pathetic 2-cents worth. :.02: - Darrell

[rgar2019]

Make sure that your electric rate is a delivered price. Delivered = generation + transmission + distribution.

Compare the cost of 1 million btu's of heat.

Electric resistance at 6.3 cents per kw-hr delivered price:
(1,000,000 / 3414 btu per kw-hr) x .063
= $18.45

Heat pump with C.O.P. = 3.7 at 45F ambient, same electric rate:
(1,000,000 / 3414) x .063 / 3.7
= $4.98

Provide your price for natural gas. Estimate $1.25 per therm and 80% efficient furnace.
(1,000,000 / 100,000 btu per therm) x 1.25 / .8
= $15.63

Take care.

According to my current gas bill, I was billed for 9.6 therms this month. Energy Charge: 9.6x0.62604=6.01 and Gas Cost: 9.6x0.58958=5.60 and then a service charge for $9.50. Does this make sense to you?

[rgar2019]

That is excellent advice except for a qualification on the statement:

An accurate load calc is the safest & best sizing way to go; because the Tech would have to verify the duct system was well sealed, if needed, properly insulated, & with the correct CFM going through the cooling coil. Those & more factors could cause the 3.5-ton to not cycle on the hottest days.

Additionally, Blower-Door testing should be performed, the air infiltration rate could even be well above .5 air changes per hour (ACH). That could be brought down to .2-ACH reducing both the sensible & latent outdoor infiltration loads.

There are more load factors that could be cost effectively reduced, so that a 3-Ton could handle the load, & also with optimal-ducting there would be a much lower HP wattage demand on the indoor blower motor, improving the 3-Ton systems EER & SEER Ratings over the 3.5-Ton's.

Your post was excellent; mine are never what they ought to be; my pathetic 2-cents worth. :.02: - Darrell

I don't know if you recall, but out of the systems I mentioned, only the Trane XR15 HP 3.5 ton system came w/variable spd. the other Trane did not. Is this extremely important to have as oppossed to not having it. Is it worth me paying the extra for the vs on the 3.5 ton system or is the 3-to Trane w/gas furnace going to be just as efficient? I see alot of people on this site in favor of the vs and others don't believe the hype. Can you advise?

[gary_g]

According to my current gas bill, I was billed for 9.6 therms this month. Energy Charge: 9.6x0.62604=6.01 and Gas Cost: 9.6x0.58958=5.60 and then a service charge for $9.50. Does this make sense to you?

Gas rate would be $.626 + $.58958 = $1.21 per therm.

My estimate of $1.25 per therm was pretty close.

A heat pump provides your cheapest heat, plus your Florida location has mild winters. 33% less than the gas furnace or electric resistance for the same 1,000,000 btu's. Pricing does not include the cost of a heat pump defrost cycle.

Take care.

[Shophound]

That is excellent advice except for a qualification on the statement:

Quote:
For sizing, you can make the call based on the performance of your 3.5 ton unit or base it on the result of a proper load calculation. If the existing unit cycled during the hottest days each year, downsize.
An accurate load calc is the safest & best sizing way to go; because the Tech would have to verify the duct system was well sealed, if needed, properly insulated, & with the correct CFM going through the cooling coil. Those & more factors could cause the 3.5-ton to not cycle on the hottest days.

Additionally, Blower-Door testing should be performed, the air infiltration rate could even be well above .5 air changes per hour (ACH). That could be brought down to .2-ACH reducing both the sensible & latent outdoor infiltration loads.

There are more load factors that could be cost effectively reduced, so that a 3-Ton could handle the load, & also with optimal-ducting there would be a much lower HP wattage demand on the indoor blower motor, improving the 3-Ton systems EER & SEER Ratings over the 3.5-Ton's.

Your post was excellent; mine are never what they ought to be; my pathetic 2-cents worth. :.02: - Darrell

It's possible to have a system cycle on the hottest days and indoor comfort and air quality not suffer. As amd's signature says, and of which I agree with, it's the building envelope, folks. When energy prices go up again, and they will, the envelope will once again receive more attention than it usually does. As long as things are cheap, it seems the status quo is to let 'em leak like a sieve. Once it gets harder to pay for heating and cooling, it's break out the caulk gun and insulation time.

Or...you could think ahead and tighten up the envelope regardless of present or future energy price fluctuations. You'll be more comfortable whether you pay more or less for the fuel your home needs. Comfort has enduring value...we should learn to understand that better.