Infinity SAM Internet Access

[tedkidd]

Anybody Selling/Buying/Using these with Infinity Systems?

I'd love to hear other's experiences with them, why they are or aren't selling them, etc...

[Cold Feet]

Carrier architectured the system to require an annual extortion ('subscription') fee from the end user. The centralized design adds no value for the end user but is extremely profitable for Carrier.

Buyer beware.

[tedkidd]

Actually you don't need to pay the annual fee unless you want remote access. Even then, if you are web savy you can probably work around it.

From the local network you can access the system directly - so if you can figure out how to access your home network from abroad, you don't need the hosting service.

Is nice to get e-mails telling you system faults though.

Now if CARRIER would just fix the totally cheesy, POS http://www.myinfinity.carrier.com/remoteaccess/ interface and start data logging... After hitting the customer the cost of a notebook computer, then $100 per year for the web interface - it's a major embarrassment and generally degrades an amazing system.

Like baking a perfect cake then putting a turd on top. Look at the bottom of the web site. They haven't even updated the copyright since 2006...

Not sure how profitable $100 a year is if they only have a few of them out there. I don't know anybody else that has sold any, and I suspect my customers won't renew that $100 if they don't get some better value for it.

Both have computer guys in their employ and both feel ripped off - I bet one will figure out a remote work around.

[dan sw fl]

The objective is not attainable.

Just think about it.
If one were a god, control of _Infinity_ would evolve into what is about the same as the 'tower of babel'
that we now have on earth with 500 + uncontrolled governments.

Carrier has embarked on a long evolutionary path to now
Remotely Control its HVAC 'tower of babel'.

If it ain't broke, Don't FIX it. ... Where did KISS as a Reliable solution ever go?

Have a Pleasant and Simple day!

[dallasbill]

I'm an IT guy and could access this thing in a New York minute from the outside without paying Carrier that stupid 100/yr. That being said, the cost of the extra hardware is highway robbery and the benefits you get are not worth it.

"You can postpone your cooling set point from the office if you have to work late."
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... with a payback of 24 years for that convenience... :LOL:

[tedkidd]

The potential for data logging is the big opportunity. Of the big furnace mfrs - Carrier is the only one I know of that is even close.

If you used your bonus room once a month, data logging will show you it's being cooled to 68 when you don't want it to be. Data logging can help diagnose comfort issues, be aware of and trouble shoot durability issues, avoid discovering energy waste via the utility bill (possibly months into a problem).

Go to www.OurCoolHouse.com (http://www.OurCoolHouse.com) and check out what Phil has done. The implications of being able to track real time are mind boggling. If this doesn't help you understand the incredible opportunities data logging offers, maybe someone else can take a stab at it.

If you've ever sold a SAM and played with it, you'd probably always offer and recommend them. (I wouldn't own an Infinity System without it.) I think Carrier will realize their web interface sucks, and that they need to redesign it and provide data logging.



Most people don't run all their decisions on "payback," in fact most don't truly understand what it means, how to calculate it, or how to analyze it.

When you do, what depreciation assumption do you use? Are you going to borrow the money (leverage) or use your own cash? What about the opportunity cost assumption - going to include that? Banks are paying less than 1% - you going to use that rate?

If you borrow the money, and your investment covers the financing, isn't payback instant? If your financing cost is $1 per month, and your investment saves $1.10 - is that a bad deal if your "payback" is 40 years? Looks like you are making money on someone else's capital.

[dallasbill]

You need to be in accounting. Your efforts are wasted here defending an expensive useless product that DOES NOT DO what you want it to do.

Nor does the website, which has remained UNCHANGED for 3 years now.

[tedkidd]

But if enough people actually got it - Carrier might put the energy into having it do what I want it to do which would take it from fairly useless toy to incredibly useful tool.

Clearly very few people are selling this thing, only me on this board.

[dallasbill]

But if enough people actually got it - Carrier might put the energy into having it do what I want it to do which would take it from fairly useless toy to incredibly useful tool.

Clearly very few people are selling this thing, only me on this board.
Then here's a sales tip for you. Take it to Carrier...

In the real world, people buy products that they think will be useful for them. Whether they be shoes or jeans or a laptop computer or a car or anything. They don't but jeans without a zipper with the hope that Levis will send them a zipper after they take them home. They don't buy a car without tires with the hope that Ford will send them tires after they somehow get the car home.

Likewise, why should people buy a useless, expensive system from Carrier, with the hope that Carrier will add to it in future, if/when Carrier finally figures out that their dog won't hunt.

I think not. :whistle:

[tedkidd]

Have been. Maybe you have a better channel? Anybody?

I'm thinking a little exposure and comment from other contractors and the public might also be an effective motivator. Let's see how long it takes for someone at Carrier to get involved.

[jerryd_2008]

I'm an IT guy and could access this thing in a New York minute from the outside without paying Carrier that stupid 100/yr. ...

Does that mean that any kid in the neighborhood can screw with your HVAC settings?:oops:

Just because it's cool, doesn't mean it's smart.

[davo]

We sell about 10-15 a year, and the customers love them. We sell them primarily to part time home owners, who go north for the summer.

If they have a home automation system, they do not have to pay the $100.00 a year as Carrier designed it to connect to home automation systems.

The best benefit is it contacts US if the system fails, or filter cloggs, of the lawn guy or painter turns off the condensing unit disconnect, it lets the owner know, and US know.

[dallasbill]

Does that mean that any kid in the neighborhood can screw with your HVAC settings?:oops:

Just because it's cool, doesn't mean it's smart.
What the heck are you babbling about?

Anybody with any network knowledge can set up their home network for secure, controlled access from the outside. The SAM is just another node on your home network, that you DON'T have to pay Carrier to get to, if you know how.

Regardless of how you get to it, you're still "screwing with your HVAC settings." :nopity:

[jerryd_2008]

What the heck are you babbling about?

...

Regardless of how you get to it, you're still "screwing with your HVAC settings." :nopity:

Well, DB, if it's on the network to Carrier I suspect that a hacker might get to it. Whether you are enough of an IT guru to set it up yourself isn't what I was addressing. The other 90%+ of HO's don't even know how to protect their PC let alone their HVAC system that is addressable from the Internet. The strongest security is NO access! Add to that :censored: ...

[tedkidd]

Actually, if changes are made remotely an e-mail confirmation goes to the homeowner. My friends give me their codes so I can show others, but I don't change the settings.


The strongest security is NO access! Add to that :censored: ...

Yeah, and I should shred all my mail, etc... Preaching conspiracy theory fear from the library - or are you accessing the Internet from the comfort of your home? (Wondering if you walk the walk or just talk the talk.)

Thanks for the input DAVEO. What do you think about data logging?

[Daltex]

I think the fear of someone gaining control of your home network is a laugh. If you don't know how to set up a network then don't join the millions of people who have joined the internet age. They can pay bills, do their banking and other things without fear. True, is someone has the knowledge and desire, they can crack a network but most are looking for something better to do than raise your stat while you sleep.

I first thought about getting the SAM because I split my time between two houses. What still makes me hesitant is the fact that this might be carriers way of gaining knowlege of your system to limit waranty claims. Seems like a black box that they can see the total workings including SC, SH, run times etc. may be in our future.

The way the government is going, I wouldn't be surprised if it's mandantory for us to all have uplinks on our units so they can let us know how much carbon tax we owe each year. Just kidding but the way it's going.....

[davo]

Data logging would be great. Remember, the system was origionally designed for skytell, with very slow speeds. I have the skytell version in my own home for demo purposes, and it is S....l....O.....W.

They new wireless and hard wired versions seem very stable.

I have been told the new version monitors a lot more, but the website is old, and will have a total re-do in the near future. For Carrier that meant within the next 10 years!!

Bad thing about a large company like Carrier, is they are slow to make changes, but when they do, they count.

[jerryd_2008]

I think the fear of someone gaining control of your home network is a laugh. If you don't know how to set up a network then don't join the millions of people who have joined the internet age. They can pay bills, do their banking and other things without fear. True, is someone has the knowledge and desire, they can crack a network but most are looking for something better to do than raise your stat while you sleep.

....

I suppose people don't high jack your unprotected Wifi networks either. And they just prosecuted a guy in Miami for hacking something like 50,000,000 credit card account numbers. I believe he used business Wifi connections to gain access. Granted, serious hackers would find no interest in your HVAC system, but kids and others hack for fun, prestige, etc. and anything that is vulnerable is a target.

While not an Internet or network expert, I have decades of computer and security related experience. Most people don't know squat about networks and they don't need to in order to get on the Internet. They are probably unaware that there are automated attempts that continuously try to find unprotected PC's on the Internet. And they succeed. Do you believe that grandma and grandpa or mom and pop know enough to protect their 2nd house while they are away?

You are aware of course that the power grid is being controlled over the Internet? How long do you think it will be before hackers start messing with that? In China, hackers, especially those that attack the US, are considered heroes!

[tedkidd]

Do you believe that grandma and grandpa or mom and pop know enough to protect their 2nd house while they are away?


True, if someone has the knowledge and desire, they can crack a network but most are looking for something better to do than raise your stat while you sleep.
nicely put. and again, WHEN A CHANGE IS MADE AN E-MAIL CONFIRMATION IS SENT!


I first thought about getting the SAM because I split my time between two houses. What still makes me hesitant is the fact that this might be carriers way of gaining knowlege of your system to limit waranty claims. Then don't pay the $100 for the web service. You can have someone set up direct remote access, apparently (from earlier posts) this shouldn't be to difficult.

[Daltex]

"this might be carriers way of gaining knowlege of your system to limit waranty claims."

What I was trying to imply is that this might be the first step into the door of the company to black box your system. I assume that waranty claims cost the company alot of money so if they could lay the blame where it should be, it could save them millions.

A black box monitoring usage conditions could tell them the ESP, SC, SH, OAT, IDWB, coil temps, amperage of motors, delta T of evap and furnace, etc. This and other data could show that the equipment was installed or used incorrectly thus negating their responsibility to replace components.

Will one day the black box data need to be uploaded to get a waranty claim? Will the government one day want the equipment designed to auto upload the data to a energy czar? Who would have guessed the government would be so involved in our lives as they are today.

Think of your vehicle. No need to do much more than to plug in the OBD II to get the problem diagnosed. After a fatal crash, the black box is used to determine speed, braking response, g force, etc.

I don't think we are close to this yet with HVAC but it seems like the government will look for any angle to control our lives and this concerns me. As it stands, none of these possible senarios are being used for such things but it make me wonder how long it might be before the possibility becomes reality.

[jerryd_2008]

nicely put. and again, WHEN A CHANGE IS MADE AN E-MAIL CONFIRMATION IS SENT!
...

Actually, it's the capability to address the tstat port that is the concern. If you bypass Carrier, go directly to the tstat port and use the built-in capability to change your settings, Carrier wouldn't even know about it. Thus, no email notification.

Just a mental exercise on unwitting vulnerabilities that keep creeping into our lives without us even thinking/knowing about it. :deadhorse:

[Cold Feet]

I assume that waranty claims cost the company alot of money so if they could lay the blame where it should be, it could save them millions.

If the behavior of the rest of the warranty/insurance industry is an indication, black boxing would save the industry millions by providing flimsy grounds to deny legitimate claims. Witness the habit of the health insurance industry to deny cancer treatment claims for patients who once had acne, for instance.

Conversely, however, fully instrumenting HVAC systems would make life much harder for HVAC hacks. Infinity is already pretty good at calling out hack ducting jobs with poor TESP. Instrumenting the refrigerant loop and furnace combustion system would similarly catch out mischarging and bad venting practices.


I don't think we are close to this yet with HVAC but it seems like the government will look for any angle to control our lives and this concerns me. As it stands, none of these possible senarios are being used for such things but it make me wonder how long it might be before the possibility becomes reality.

You're being paranoid. Invasive government surveillance is designed to repress descent and negate perceived security risks. How you set your HVAC isn't a security risk nor is it an act of descent. The government has no motivation or need to see how you heat your house.

[DanW13]

My installer told me there will be a day soon where Carrier hopes that contractors will have the ability to drive up to the customers home and diagnosis the customers HVAC andknow what the problems are before entering the customers home ? IS he far off form the truth with regards to SAM and Carrier ?

[thump_rrr]

...

A black box monitoring usage conditions could tell them the ESP, SC, SH, OAT, IDWB, coil temps, amperage of motors, delta T of evap and furnace, etc.If all this data were available along with the suction and discharge pressure I'd start installing ductwork in my home tomorrow.

[dan sw fl]

Will the government one day want the equipment designed to auto upload the data to a energy czar? Who would have guessed the government would be so involved in our lives as they are today.

but it seems like the government will look for any angle to control our lives and this concerns me.

As it stands, none of these possible senarios are being used for such things but it make me wonder how long it might be before the possibility becomes reality.

Just a few years at the rate we are going this year. ...

But , certainly not via this mechanism.

[Daltex]

You're being paranoid. Invasive government surveillance is designed to repress descent and negate perceived security risks. How you set your HVAC isn't a security risk nor is it an act of descent. The government has no motivation or need to see how you heat your house.

Look up Cap and Trade and see if the powers that be aren't concerned with your personal energy usage. You can also look up CAFE standards for cars.

I assume the easiest way would be to just increase the taxation of the electrical usage. That with the minimum SEER ratings should hold them over for a while.

I do hope the future is for the refridgerant curcuit to be monitored for tech usage. Seems to be a possibility.

[tedkidd]

"this might be carriers way of gaining knowlege of your system to limit waranty claims."

What I was trying to imply is that this might be the first step into the door of the company to black box your system. I assume that waranty claims cost the company alot of money so if they could lay the blame where it should be, it could save them millions.

Yep, they can do that already. Internet access or no. But the systems are also so smart that they won't burn up fans or HEs trying to overcome bad airflow. So, while the diagnostics will help good tech's, the bad one's have to work harder to hurt this equipment. At least that's my understanding of it.


A black box monitoring usage conditions could tell them the ESP, SC, SH, OAT, IDWB, coil temps, amperage of motors, delta T of evap and furnace, etc. This and other data could show that the equipment was installed or used incorrectly thus negating their responsibility to replace components.

Will one day the black box data need to be uploaded to get a waranty claim? Will the government one day want the equipment designed to auto upload the data to a energy czar? Who would have guessed the government would be so involved in our lives as they are today.

Think of your vehicle. No need to do much more than to plug in the OBD II to get the problem diagnosed. After a fatal crash, the black box is used to determine speed, braking response, g force, etc.

Exactly, I think of being able to troubleshoot quickly as a good thing, not a bad thing. Guys who do shoddy work might disagree.


I don't think we are close to this yet with HVAC but it seems like the government will look for any angle to control our lives and this concerns me. As it stands, none of these possible senarios are being used for such things but it make me wonder how long it might be before the possibility becomes reality.


If the behavior of the rest of the warranty/insurance industry is an indication, black boxing would save the industry millions by providing flimsy grounds to deny legitimate claims. Witness the habit of the health insurance industry to deny cancer treatment claims for patients who once had acne, for instance.

Conversely, however, fully instrumenting HVAC systems would make life much harder for HVAC hacks. Infinity is already pretty good at calling out hack ducting jobs with poor TESP. Instrumenting the refrigerant loop and furnace combustion system would similarly catch out mischarging and bad venting practices.

Yep, nicely put.



You're being paranoid. Invasive government surveillance is designed to repress descent and negate perceived security risks. How you set your HVAC isn't a security risk nor is it an act of descent. The government has no motivation or need to see how you heat your house.


My installer told me there will be a day soon where Carrier hopes that contractors will have the ability to drive up to the customers home and diagnosis the customers HVAC andknow what the problems are before entering the customers home ? IS he far off form the truth with regards to SAM and Carrier ?

If you have SAM you get an e-mail. (otherwise you have to go to the controller and pull the codes)
One of my SAM installs had a power outage that caused the condenser breaker to trip, I got this:

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Your Carrier Comfort System <RemoteAccess@carriercva-81.hosting.bbnplanet.com> wrote:
There is an urgent comfort system alert for the following location:

Address: 14 Country
Homeowner: Peter
Phone: 585766

System Name: Home
Alert Originated Time: 6/25/2009 4:30:36 PM
Alert Type: Equipment Malfunction Alert
Dealer: Halco Heating & Cooling, 315-

There is a Equipment Malfunction Alert for 14 Country Meadow Drive.
Critical malfunction exists.


The reply mailbox is not reviewed for its content.
Please contact your local Carrier dealer if you need assistance.
Please contact your servicing dealer.

So yes, nice to know what's wrong before you leave. And nice to be able to tell the homeowner they had a power outage, and possibly avoid a service call.