AHRI Cert question

[mrshikadance]

Hi All,


I'm working with an awesome contractor to install a central A/C unit to my existing furnace (trane 4 speed blower). We searched far and wide for an A/C that could match up with my trane furnace and qualify for the $1500 Tax Credit. We found a lennox 21 SEER unit that seems to qualify.

My contractor sent the AHRI cert number for the unit and it shows the lennox outdoor unit, coil, and the TXV valve, but it doesn't state the furnace. I'm assuming this means it can achieve 16seer 13eer with any air handler, but I don't want to look stupid, so I'm hesitant to ask my contractor.

Can you guys help?

thanks,

Wes

[GuitarHero]

It is my understanding you need a mfg certified statement to get the 2009 Federal Tax Credit. Since Lennox isn't tested with Trane, you will need to use a Trane outside unit to get the credit. (If they have one)

Here are some sites that might help explain:

www.energystar.gov

http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/home.aspx

Ask your contractor for the ARI number and you can print it from the Find Certified Products tab at the ahri site.

[mrshikadance]

I already have the AHRI cert number and looked up the cert. It shows the Lennox unit, coil, and txv valve, but doesn't show my blower. My contractor says that by virtue of the AC unit and coil alone we achieve the rating necessary to receive the tax credit.

[DanW13]

Yep ARHI dictates to the manufacturers what is considered matched equipment so just as i have inquired with my installer since i have the Infinity furnace I asked him if the Evoulution which is a Bryant model although it's the same as the Infinity model just a different name he said it would pass as a matched pair, go figure right !!!! Which IMO it really shouldn't matter so long as the equipment is matched and the name on the equipment shouldn't matter but according to ARHI is does because they say so.

[beenthere]

AHRI does not dictate what is a match.

They approve, or disapprove of the rating the manufacturer puts on the equipment.

AHRI doesn't test, or pay to have a test done on any equipment. Unless they suspect the equipment will not meet the stated efficiency the manufacturer listed.

[superheatbob]

First be sure you undertand the difference in an AHRI # and the tax credit,,,,they are not the same. matched systems have ahri #'s.

tax credit systems have ahri #'s AND qualify for the tax credit by virtues of meeting certain performance standards. 16/13 is the a/c standard.

The furnace is only added to the system IF it helps lower the seer. If the coil ratios are a certain value, the condenser and the evaporator can make the seer WITHOUT the furnace. Sometimes a TXV helps this also.

Standard SEER/EER is calculated with an 'approximate existing fan watts' if the furnace is not replaced. IF the two pieces of the a/c unit make the seer with those average fans watts - meaning you reuse the old furnace - that's why the furnace is not listed.

The OTHER scenario is when a furnace uses an ecm and/or variable speed motor that absorbs very low wattage, it can increase the seer of the a/c unit by having a lower total wattage of the system. This way an a/c system that could not make the requirement can now add the low wattage furnace motor in it's place of the 'average fan watts'....and presto, the sytem qualifies.

You will see most tax credit systems with varaible speed furnace matches for this very reason.
Depending on your location you may wish to make the tax credit with your a/c ...OR your 95% furnace. No need for both. Is your heating or cooling season longer?

[Junkers]

I believe that all AHRI certificates of whatever type are NOT mixing and matching between different AC, Heat Pump or Furnace manufacturers. The only mix and match between different manufacturers is when an evaporator coil from one manufacturer is used with a furnace or air handler from another company.

Post the certificate number your contractor gave you. From that information it will be easy to comment on whether or not you are getting half-truth info. For example the contractor could have specified a valid trane outdoor unit and with a valid evaporator coil but intended for use in an air handler (and not your furnace)!!!

Don't forget that in case of an audit, the information on the bill of sale has to exactly match up with all of the printed certificate.

The comment says that "by virtue of the AC unit and coil alone we achieve the rating necessary to receive the tax credit" is untrue. The SEER and EER performance requirements of a split system are all dependent upon the performance of a TOTAL system which is an AC (or heat pump) outdoor condenser and compressor combined with a matching indoor evaporator AND either a matching furnace or an air handler. The reason is that you can not get the high SEER/EER performance numbers with an under-performing furnace or air handler.

[chambery1]

Junkers,

Are you a CPA or an IRS agent, or perhaps an IRS attorney who specializes in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act ("ARRA")?

You certainly sound like you are an expert on this subject.

It would be nice to know someone who knows exactly how the IRS is interpreting Congressional intent as it is thought the IRS is still promulgating the tax code for the ARRA and no final regulations have been adopted. This is all so confusing for the consumer.

[superheatbob]

The a/c system can in some cases meet the requirements of 16/13 DESPITE the fact that is using the 'invisible default fan wattage' figured in by manufacturers engineering on an older inefficient PSC motor speed furnace.

I said condenser and and evap only, but I reffered to the furnace as invisible, but did not mean to imply the 2 a/c components made it without the furnace. .
They would make it without the VS/ECM furnace, just use default watts.

Putting that system with a newer VS furnace will only make the seer /eer HIGHER but I am sure you know that.

I wonder if Obama will crawl into attics to check em ? :D

[Junkers]

No IRS agent, wife is the CPA but I did talk to the IRS about the tax credit for my own home in regard to what is needed to not have a problem in case of an audit. I have been investigating the subject for many months and been in touch withto many experts, like the pros here on this forum and many in my area.

On the IRS site there does exist a draft form 5695 for the tax year 2009 that is pretty simple. I would not overthink the congressional intent as the law is now in effect and many are currently taking advantage of it. Just get the certificate number for the equipment from your contractor before you sign anything and someone here can verify that it is a valid tax creditworthy system.

[mrshikadance]

Hey Guys,

I believe superheatbob is correct. I have a trane xl 90 furnace (4 speed blower).

The cert (attached) shows that a lennox XC21-024-230 outdoor unit + a CH33-31A coil TDR+TXV valve achieves a 16.90 seer and 13 eer rating, which should qualify for the rebate regardless of my furnace/air handler.

Can anyone confirm (see cert)?

thanks,

Wes

[chambery1]

Please review the following "guidance" from the IRS re: qualifications for the federal energy credit.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/n-09-53.pdf

Note specifically page 5 paragraph 2. Please note that paragraph (c) should read "January 1, 2009" and not "January 1, 2006".

No mention of AHRI certificates.

[gary_g]

Hey Guys,

I believe superheatbob is correct. I have a trane xl 90 furnace (4 speed blower).

The cert (attached) shows that a lennox XC21-024-230 outdoor unit + a CH33-31A coil TDR+TXV valve achieves a 16.90 seer and 13 eer rating, which should qualify for the rebate regardless of my furnace/air handler.

Can anyone confirm (see cert)?

thanks,

Wes

I would have no problem using that cert to claim the Fed Tax Credit. My opinion.

Good luck.

[gary_g]

I wonder if Obama will crawl into attics to check em ? :D

The IRS isn't going to be looking for data plate info either :)

[jerryd_2008]

...

The furnace is only added to the system IF it helps lower the seer. If the coil ratios are a certain value, the condenser and the evaporator can make the seer WITHOUT the furnace. Sometimes a TXV helps this also.

Standard SEER/EER is calculated with an 'approximate existing fan watts' if the furnace is not replaced. IF the two pieces of the a/c unit make the seer with those average fans watts - meaning you reuse the old furnace - that's why the furnace is not listed.

The OTHER scenario is when a furnace uses an ecm and/or variable speed motor that absorbs very low wattage, it can increase the seer of the a/c unit by having a lower total wattage of the system. This way an a/c system that could not make the requirement can now add the low wattage furnace motor in it's place of the 'average fan watts'....and presto, the sytem qualifies.

You will see most tax credit systems with varaible speed furnace matches for this very reason.
...

SHBob, I been trying to wade through the AHRI directory and what the conventions mean for some time. Do you have a link or document that describes your reasoning for having or not having furnace listings along with the AC (or HP)?

Like your explanation just would like to see it "officially stated".

PS: How would one determine whether a new furnace/air handler uses some acceptable default wattage? Or does that just mean that the new indoor unit can't be included in the 15% * $5,000 = $1,500 maximum tax credit calculation?

[Junkers]

Upon further investigation it becomes clear that things are murky.

1. As indicated in the IRS document 2009-53 the IRS has believed that the MANUFACTURER will provide the certificate with an attached signature that the homeowner would have for documentation. . .which could exclude the AHRI certificate from being used in case of an audit.
2. The IRS representative was not aware of the fact that AHRI is making statements that "This combination qualifies for a Federal Energy Efficiency Tax Credit when placed in service between Feb 17, 2009 and Dec 31, 2010."
3. According to this reliable source this does not mean that the AHRI certificate is invalid per se. What it does mean is that untill IRS reviews the chain of responsibility and certification between the manufacturer and AHRI as a well respected entity, there is a chance the AHRI certificate might be insufficient documentation at this point in time.
4. Most IRS audit agents know far less about this and might accept the AHRI certificate.
4. In a few weeks or months this documentatin requirement will probably be clarified, and could allow the AHRI document to be used. It all depends.

So what are the chances of an audit? and how many IRS agents know about the distinction? Those who are willing to take some risk might use the AHRI cert. Those who can not take any risk need to persevere and get the Manufacturer's certificate in hand before entering into an agreement.

[gary_g]

So what are the chances of an audit? and how many IRS agents know about the distinction? Those who are willing to take some risk might use the AHRI cert. Those who can not take any risk need to persevere and get the Manufacturer's certificate in hand before entering into an agreement.

That's it in a nut shell.

[jerryd_2008]

Upon further investigation it becomes clear that things are murky.

1. As indicated in the IRS document 2009-53 the IRS has believed that the MANUFACTURER will provide the certificate with an attached signature that the homeowner would have for documentation. . .which could exclude the AHRI certificate from being used in case of an audit. ...

Maybe I missed it, but is some manufacturer refusing to provide the signed tax credit certificate required by the IRS?

From all certifications that I have seen and the one I got from a 3rd party coil manufacturer, they reference the AHRI rating AND include the manufacturer signature that is required by the IRS. But note that it is based on the AHRI certification.


So what are the chances of an audit? and how many IRS agents know about the distinction? Those who are willing to take some risk might use the AHRI cert. Those who can not take any risk need to persevere and get the Manufacturer's certificate in hand before entering into an agreement.

I disagree! I got a above mentioned manufacturer certification and AHRI then promptly delisted many previous listings. I now have the required manufacturer certificate in hand and will let them debate any IRS questions. Not me!

The 3rd party did state that they will stand behind their certification up to the date of the AHRI changes. I would assume all would do the same in order to protect inventories, HO's and active proposals at that time.

[mrshikadance]

For me there are two distinct issues here.

1. Tax Credit

2. Actual Performance


On issue #1, I'm not so worried. I have the manufacturers cert and the AHRI cert. The only thing that could be an issue is the fact that the AHRI cert doesn't state my furnace, but I wouldn't even show that to the IRS. I would just forward the manu cert, which just shows the AC unit model number and nothing else.

What I'm really wondering is if I actually get the 16 seer/13 eer with the Lennox Out Door unit, Coils, TXV, and my Trane XL 90 furnace (4 speed blower).

[Junkers]

Jerryd 2008 I don't think any manufacturer would refuse to provide a signed tax credit if it is available. That would be like shooting your foot. But that does not mean that all manufacturers or distributors make it easy to locate one in the presale environment or on their web sites. Some dealers I have talked to want to be really really sure the prospect is really really going to buy from them before they go to the trouble of locating the manufacturers certificate. The better the distributor the easier it is to get.

After I talked to Aspen I understood and sympathized with how hard it has been for them and others when the goal post seemed to keep changing. The confusion and delisting in the past few months hopefully is something now in the past. Time will tell.

Your comment about 3rd parties standing behind their certification is probably true when it comes to mix and match coils because they have a big reason to work with the manufacturer to make thing right.

What has happened to a few as you (but not all) know is that they were told they were purchasing a system that would receive a tax credit, but by the time the equipment was installed the certificate was no longer listed. Hopefully we all will not see that happening in the future.

The bottom line continues to be for those who require lowest possible risk is to have the manufacturers certificate in hand before signing on the dotted line.

[jerryd_2008]

...

What I'm really wondering is if I actually get the 16 seer/13 eer with the Lennox Out Door unit, Coils, TXV, and my Trane XL 90 furnace (4 speed blower).

Maybe you're making this too hard. If the manufacturer's cert covers the Lennox outdoor unit, TXV and coil then you have probably maxed out the tax credit of 15% * $5,000 = $1,500. Right?

[mrshikadance]

Yep, I'm getting the tax credit...but am I actually getting the efficiency?

[jerryd_2008]

Jerryd 2008 ... But that does not mean that all manufacturers or distributors make it easy to locate one in the presale environment or on their web sites. Some dealers I have talked to want to be really really sure the prospect is really really going to buy from them before they go to the trouble of locating the manufacturers certificate. ...

The bottom line continues to be for those who require lowest possible risk is to have the manufacturers certificate in hand before signing on the dotted line.

My distributor wasn't even aware of the Aspen coil match and worked very closely with me to get the Aspen cert. He even provided a letter from the manufacturer authorizing 3rd party coil match ups and warranty/rebate assurances. I am in a pretty small metro market so I assume competition isn't as fierce as in big markets. I had no problem and I made it an explicit proposal requirement that the contractor deliver the tax certification. Seems pretty petty, maybe even stupid, for a contractor to not provide such information on or before proposal signing on a contract this large. So I guess I would advise moving on to another contractor/distributor.

[jerryd_2008]

Yep, I'm getting the tax credit...but am I actually getting the efficiency?

They told me that my Buick would get xyz mpg too. Can't prove it. Don't know of any Consumers Reports for HVAC systems. Seems like the AHRI certification standards is as close as it gets. I would accept it.

Maybe you could get the contractor to project the cost savings that you would get and use that absolute measure over him if it misses by a mile. Have heard of this being provided in other posts but never did get it myself.

There are also calculators that project savings. I prefer the Carrier web site tool which compares current AC SEER to proposed SEER or HP HSPF, say. This gives you an expectation of savings provided you keep as many parameters the same when looking at actual costs.

[superheatbob]

Best of luck to you mrshikadance! The system qualifies, but there is no guarantee YOU do, you have to check with your 'tax person for that.' usually, you have to OWE at least 1500 in taxes if you want to take the credit .... in general terms. But if you can afford a system like that you probably owe taxes...you are probably OK, but don't take this as gospel. You'd be crazy to take tax advice on an hvac forum :)

Remember it'a a tax CREDIT...not a rebate. The credit means you subtract the (30% of the total installed cost - max of $1500) from the amount you owe the govt. You will NOT get a check in the mail!

Here is a horror story for the pros on here: One of our dealers told a widow who bought a 'tax credit system', (who owed no taxes and had no income) she would get a REBATE.

There is no 'REBATE', so she threatened to sue him and he had to write a check to her for 1500 dollars! It's easy to mis-speak, so be careful.

[chambery1]

No IRS agent, wife is the CPA but I did talk to the IRS about the tax credit for my own home in regard to what is needed to not have a problem in case of an audit. I have been investigating the subject for many months and been in touch withto many experts, like the pros here on this forum and many in my area.

On the IRS site there does exist a draft form 5695 for the tax year 2009 that is pretty simple. I would not overthink the congressional intent as the law is now in effect and many are currently taking advantage of it. Just get the certificate number for the equipment from your contractor before you sign anything and someone here can verify that it is a valid tax creditworthy system.

I am missing something here Junkers. Here is the IRS form you say is "pretty simple" http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5695.pdf , but I do not see where is says anything about HVAC.

Please help me out, I want that credit.

Can you please explain how this simple IRS form addresses HVAC systems?

I see "Qualified solar electric property costs" on Line 1, "Qualified solar water heating property costs" on line 5, "Qualified fuel cell property costs" on line 9, "Qualified small wind energy property costs" on line 13, and "Qualified geothermal heat pump property costs" on line 18. I read the instructions below the form and see no mention of HVAC credits of 30% on costs up to $5,000.

Is there another form, or other instructions for this form?

Please help.

[jerryd_2008]

...

Is there another form, or other instructions for this form?

...

The form you point to is for 2008. I couldn't find any draft form for 2009 as suggested by Junkers. Junkers needs to provide a link to his draft form. Frankly, I would be surprised if a 2009 form appears much before the end of the year or finalized until in 2010 even.

Does anybody know if the IRS has even made it's definitive ruling on the HVAC tax credit?

[superheatbob]

I don't think the form exists yet.

The best explanation for a layman is www.hardinet.org, summary of tax bill

their link takes you here. download 4 page PDF file

http://209.235.208.145/cgi-bin/WebSuite/tcsAssnWebSuite.pl?Action=DisplayNewsDetails&RecordID=1103&Sections=B&IncludeDropped=&AssnID=HARDI&DBCode=462773

The 20 page summary you saw a few posts back was the 'SUMMARY' of the 1000+ page document created by congress ( ! ) I read about 4 pages and threw it in the trash.

The hardi summary is 4 pages of the guts of 'what qualifies'.(also condensed fron the the 1000 page doc... If your system qualifies you can do the math up to 30 % of cost of installed item, max 1500.

If you have or know a tax guy, let him find the form. They will have it out by next year probably. It aint easy deciphering IRS stuff IMHO altho I am sure someone will tell us it is....

I have already planned on taking my tax credit, I will worry about the form later.

[Junkers]

For those interested here is the link to the 2009 draft form 5695 www.irs.gov/pub/irs-dft/f5695--dft.pdf According to the IRS, line 3a is where HVAC equipment is to be listed as a total.

At the time of my conversation with the IRS 6 weeks ago there was no estimate of when the 2009 detail instructions would be available but it should be quite similar to the 2008 instructions.

superheatbob is right, the form is not the issue. Get the manufacturers certificate if you can and are at all risk averse, or get the easily available AHRI certificate if you wish.

All you then would do is to have the documentation (itemized receipts that exactly match the accompanying certificate) available in case of an audit.