If you lost your control line

[techhead]

How many people run with more than one line? I'm not talking front ends I'm talking the controllers that are your bread and butter?
with the way wall street is and the economy how many will fall?
I never thought GM would fall

[freddy-b]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/MacawMad/Avatars%20N%20Funny%20Pics/parrot.gif

[techhead]

Do your graphics on your sites look that good?
was that done in AX LOL

[simsd]

Freddy-B

I friggin' LOVED that!

I needed a good laugh today!!!

[hybridtheory]

How many people run with more than one line? I'm not talking front ends I'm talking the controllers that are your bread and butter?
with the way wall street is and the economy how many will fall?
I never thought GM would fall

Our company rep's two lines (AutoMatrix and Reliable). That excludes anythng we do with NiagaraAX boxes. I honestly don't have a single complaint about dealing with two different manufacturers. I'm not nose deep in the sales part of it, but I can say we carry both for different reasons (e.g. Reliable is cheap and gets you in the door, AutoMatrix is built like a brick $hithouse.).

Inadvertent plugs for the two aside, I think having more than one line goes a long way. We sorta sit down and determine which has specific strengths for a project, and go from there.

I don't know what other companies like Delta, ALC, Alerton, etc..require - meaning if they want you to be exclusive to only them, or if they allow you to stand on your own and do what you wish (provided you're making them money).

I'm interested in other's comments on this! Good question techhead!

[sysint]

Recently a west coast LON company traded hands. They were down awhile before everything got sorted out but can anyone really say it was catastrophic? Other than current jobs and parts probably everyone adjusted relatively easily. I suppose there may have been some software-related issues for some product, but on the controller side? I think all in all it was very manageable.

[doodah]

hybridtheory,
Can't speak about the others, but Alerton expects you to be their rep exclusively. Several years ago my company purchased a small control company that had the Alerton distirbutership. It was nice having two offerings, but Alterton didn't like us serving two masters and pulled the plug on us.

[willf650]

:troll: If you pick up a BACnet control line you will go straight to hell.



I could see the point of having two lines but I honestly doudt you will get any useful information in this thread or from this board in this regaurd of who, what or where. As soon as something gets said an opossing view point will bombard your post with bull****.

We technicly have two lines but have never used the second. Its a poster on the wall at this point.

I would look at Reliable as a second line if I were in the market as they seem very flexable in selling their product. From speaking with them they want to sell product and are fine with a company having multiple lines and vendors in the market area.

If I personally were more than a Tech and had some say in what we sold other than fixing it after the fact I probably would have three vendors of feild controllers on a job with a comon front end.

[xarralu]

I would go to pneumatics! No one can argue about how open it is!

[eparizher]

We carry 4 lines:
American Automatrix
Siemens/Staefa
Honeywell
Johnson
and we really do projects with all lines, Very flexible.
But front end is Niagara.

[ControlBIZ]

Our company rep's two lines (AutoMatrix and Reliable). That excludes anythng we do with NiagaraAX boxes. I honestly don't have a single complaint about dealing with two different manufacturers. I'm not nose deep in the sales part of it, but I can say we carry both for different reasons (e.g. Reliable is cheap and gets you in the door, AutoMatrix is built like a brick $hithouse.).

Inadvertent plugs for the two aside, I think having more than one line goes a long way. We sorta sit down and determine which has specific strengths for a project, and go from there.

I don't know what other companies like Delta, ALC, Alerton, etc..require - meaning if they want you to be exclusive to only them, or if they allow you to stand on your own and do what you wish (provided you're making them money).

I'm interested in other's comments on this! Good question techhead!

Hybridtheory, I was going to stay away from this one, but since you asked, I will be more than happy to give you my comments. I started my controls career with the big H in the early 80's. The division was called BSD. We focused on servicing what the construction division installed. I was once told by a corporate suit, that we made up 7% of the employees and accounted for 26% of the corporate profits. We had branches worldwide. Back then the only independent control company you ran into was Andover.

Then the PC hit the streets and electronic manufacturing started. What was once a time when one of the big 3 was guaranteed to get every 3rd or 4th job, soon became they had difficulty competing. Companies like Andover, CSI, ALC, Alerton, Staefa, Novar etc. started hitting the streets hard. By the late 90's the service divisions of the big 3 had taken a major hit in revenues because there were not as many systems for them to service because of the independents. Many of the service branches were cut back and some closed. This was a huge hit in revenues to the big boys.

Corporate America started the roll ups of the independent controls manufacturers to minimize competition. If you trace most brands they lead back to one of the publicly traded 4 or 5 big boys. With new construction down and most of the brands now being controlled by one of the public companies, I think it is fair to expect the factory service branches to fire back up. If they cannot make their numbers by selling new hardware, they will make them be servicing their hardware. JCI already proved this to be true when they pulled the Metasys line from all of the ABC's. They con'd hundreds of independent Control Contractors to install millions of dollars of Metasys and take all of the risk for the installation. When the market timing was right for JCI, they pulled the line from distribution and reclaimed it for branch operations.

If you think it won't happen with the other companies, ask yourself why the latest Honeywell Spyder controllers are programmable through Tridium and why you can reverse compile the code from any Spyder controller? Who do you think that benefits in the long term? Who controls the access codes to all Jaces? Who owns Tridium?

I am a huge proponent of independent small business. I have witnessed a company lose 15+ million of installed client base because a Wall Street Controls company felt they deserved the business. If you cannot procure the brand of hardware installed in your clients buildings, they are no longer your clients. As a controls contractor, if you would lose your clients if you lost your hardware line, you have no business. The brand of hardware you install owns you and you are nothing more than a TOOL. It's about their P&L, their quarterly numbers and their stock price. They don't give a damn about your company. Their latest tactics are offering ridiculously low prices to buy some of their premium dealers.

Having multiple control lines keeps you from being completely vulnerable, but that is not the answer. If you lost one of the lines, you would still lose the ability to support any client base where you had installed the product. The only solution is to be a Systems Integrator and install LonWorks. Make sure you don't install only one brand of Lon and never use the HMI/GUI/Front End from the same company you buy your hardware from. If you use Tridium as your HMI, do not use any of the programming functionality in the Tridium. Install the system using an LNS database and then overlay Tridium only as the HMI. This protects you from both a controller standpoint and the JACE. If either were to be taken from you, you could still retain your client. Sure you would be inconvenienced, but you would still have your business.

While I would like to say Bacnet would provide the same level of independence, it will not until they develop a common networking tool open to the public. Bacnet systems are too closely tied to their front ends. If you believe you are truly independent installing Bacnet, ask yourself how many clients you would be able to support if you could not get that particular brand of hardware. If your product line is owned by corporate America, how they are going to make their quarterly numbers in a down economy? They will start reclaiming the installed base for their own. If you don't think it will happen, read the fine print in your Dealer contract. With most of the contracts, you signed your clients away with no recourse.

I'll admit LonWorks can be a pain and there are some features in Bacnet that are appealing. But installing a LonWorks based system the way I am describing it, will allow you to keep your customers when Wall Street comes rolling through concerned only about their P&L. I actually hope Bacnet rises to the level of interoperability and hardware interchangeability that LonWorks provides. It will allow all independent control contractors to keep what they have worked so hard to build and is rightfully theirs. Take back control of your business!!!!

[klrogers]

ControlBIZ,

I certainly agree with you on most of your thoughts, but be warned you will be getting a lot of different opinions expressed on this over the next few days.

Kevin

[ControlBIZ]

Klrogers, I posted my comments to provoke thought. I love this industry and I love small business. Anyone who has been doing this for any length of time, knows the Controls Industry becomes a lifestyle. We work long, hard hours. Sometimes the pace is so fast and furious, we don't have time to sit back and analyze our businesses. The best businesses know their weaknesses. It's never your strengths that catch you off guard, it's always your weaknesses that trip you up.

While I like LonWorks for all the freedom it has delivered to our industry, please do not mistake my liking LonWorks to my liking Echelon. Echelon did their job and introduced a technology that took off the handcuffs and allowed independent contractors and integrators to control their own destiny. Echelon is immaterial to the future of LonWorks. LonWorks will continue to propogate the world with or without Echelon. The biggest opponents of LonWorks, try to tie Echelon and LonWorks together. Echelon is also a publicly traded company and concerned with their quarterly revenues, their P&L and their stock price.......not yours. Echelon has done their job and allowed us to take control of our business.

I truly don't believe the "independent" Bacnet contractors want anything different from the independent LonWorks integrators. They just either a) have never lost a product line and their customers or b) they are too busy doing business to realize they don't really own their business or their customers.

There is strength in numbers. All small business needs to unify. If we work together we can help the Bacnet contractors take back control of their business. The first step is getting them to realize their weaknesses and then force the standard to fill the holes......step one is a common networking tool and a common database. This would be a big step in taking off the handcuffs and allowing them to excercise their independence.

One of the posts said something about Alerton not letting their dealers have a second control line. Unless Alerton owns stock in your company, why do you put up with that? The answer is simple...........YOU DON'T OWN OR CONTROL YOUR BUSINESS!!!!!! WALL STREET DOES.

Let's all unite and either get Bacnet to step up to the plate or teach the Bacnet contractors how to do LON so we can all control our own business and destiny.

[paulir]

ControlBIZ,

I certainly agree with you on most of your thoughts, but be warned you will be getting a lot of different opinions expressed on this over the next few days.

Kevin

Where is the Blitzkrieg?

I am from the opposite side of the fence working thru small independents for the last 25 years. I have been burned a couple times when doing the ABCS, ACI type of relationships.

When your BIG Corp switch-a-rue on ya, it results in a loss of not only customers, but huge investments in training, and inventory.

I am about "open" now, and I agree with ControlBIZ both that LON is a "safer" investment, and that BacNet needs to develop some "open" software tools.

I understand Distech is developing a BacNet controller (adaption of current line), and if they successfully utilize their current GUI programming tool, and make it "free" & "open" I think that it will rattle & shake the BacNet industry, and others will follow.

In the mean time my solution to "open" is to always insure my customer has a copy of all databases, and all software & code. I train them the basics, and the "rules", and then do my part to make sure I always have a "master copy" of my latest just in case. I am a firm beliver that the customer is purchasing a product & solution from my firm, and he owns it, lock stock and barrel. He has paid you, and is entilted to all aspects, including administrative passwords.

With this said, I know I will get blasted, but too many contractors try to keep the system "locked down" not to protect code, but to "own" the customer, and that's BS!

If a contractor takes care of his customer, and treats them fairly on pricing of service, expansion, and up-grades, he has nothing to fear but competition itself, your job is to educate the customer if the competition is cheaper, to the differences, and convince the customer "cheaper" is not always the solution.

[acddc]

Where is the Blitzkrieg?

I am from the opposite side of the fence working thru small independents for the last 25 years. I have been burned a couple times when doing the ABCS, ACI type of relationships.

When your BIG Corp switch-a-rue on ya, it results in a loss of not only customers, but huge investments in training, and inventory.

I am about "open" now, and I agree with ControlBIZ both that LON is a "safer" investment, and that BacNet needs to develop some "open" software tools.

I understand Distech is developing a BacNet controller (adaption of current line), and if they successfully utilize their current GUI programming tool, and make it "free" & "open" I think that it will rattle & shake the BacNet industry, and others will follow.

In the mean time my solution to "open" is to always insure my customer has a copy of all databases, and all software & code. I train them the basics, and the "rules", and then do my part to make sure I always have a "master copy" of my latest just in case. I am a firm beliver that the customer is purchasing a product & solution from my firm, and he owns it, lock stock and barrel. He has paid you, and is entilted to all aspects, including administrative passwords.

With this said, I know I will get blasted, but too many contractors try to keep the system "locked down" not to protect code, but to "own" the customer, and that's BS!

If a contractor takes care of his customer, and treats them fairly on pricing of service, expansion, and up-grades, he has nothing to fear but competition itself, your job is to educate the customer if the competition is cheaper, to the differences, and convince the customer "cheaper" is not always the solution.

NIcely stated.

We come from the same arena I use to get my NCM's through an old ABCS contractor in a nice handshake deal. Worked great for both of us. I was wondering what they did with the ABCS model and if they eliminated it or what happened. Any light you can share would be greatly appreciated.

[paulir]

NIcely stated.

We come from the same arena I use to get my NCM's through an old ABCS contractor in a nice handshake deal. Worked great for both of us. I was wondering what they did with the ABCS model and if they eliminated it or what happened. Any light you can share would be greatly appreciated.

Well you will get a kick out of this! :eek2:

I signed up as a ABCS probably 9-10 years ago, bought about 20K in inventory, and trained three techs, with about 2 classes each. My local wholesaler raised heck about us dropping them and becoming an ABCS. Well 3-4 months after I signed on, EVERY ABCS in the ABCS channel received a notice to terminate (30day). I was stunned, being just infancy into my business unit, and now if I did not get a renewal I would look like a dumb**** in front of the owners!.

JCi said they would restructure ABCS's in the next 90 days, that turned into 6 months (of which I had no interest in expanding, not knowing the future of my contract). The meeting day came, and sure enough, they pulled the plug due to lack of sales.

I explained my position about lack of sales by lack of knowing the future, and we discussed them being fortune 500, and I discussing we were owned by a fortune 500 also. JCI said they would reconsider and get back in two weeks. They called the next day and said I would be renewed, but they put the nix on a sister company doing 1m a year in their product! Sister company was playing in the hospital & school market too much.

Well long and short I survived, then my company got snatched up by another corp, and I moved on because I was sick of wondering who I was going to work for the next day.

That was 6 years ago, and I don't know what has happened since. I do know JCI has always kept certain products to their chest, and only ABCS & JCI are able to purchase. I was told after the 2nd contract, that if you had multi-lines, that you could not be an ABCS, but I know of two ABCS's that do offer at least two choices, so JCI may have changed the rules.

JCI canceled the contract with-in a month or two after I left, I heard that my old company was selling product to the "sister company" and got caught.

I did like their offerings at the time, especially the DX due to it's low cost and flexibility.

[acddc]

Thanks Paulir very interesting

[deanmech]

This is very enlightening. I run a small mechanical outfit and am just gradually switching in to some controls presently. We have done some Johnson FX and some Honeywell LCBS and that is about it so far--nothing too spectacular. One of the Johnson Branch salesmen did not like to see me at a job tender meeting the other day. I dunno.........if it becomes too much of a hastle, I may dump their line too. At this point my chargeout rate is enough less than the Johnson Branch rate, that I can't see any of my customers jumping ship anytime soon...........

[dgruber]

Freddy B,

I would tweet you, but still have not figured out how it works!

I agree, hear we go again, but you have to admit some good comes out of it sometimes.