Bryant Evolution vs Coleman Echelon

[mmmm]

I have received 5 bids from local companies. After doing much research these are the following systems that I have narrowed it down to. We are upgrading a 20+ year old RUDD furnace (no AC or heat pump). Ruled our Carrier because it does not seem to be worth the extra cost. We live in the Pacific NW and the weather here is pretty mild.

1. Bryant Evolution 268A 3 ton heat pump (16 SEER/ 9.0 HSPF) with Bryant 80% Evolution 315AAV adding honeywell media filter with the Evolution Control system

Bryant Heat Pump (http://www.bryant.com/products/acheatpumps/heatpumps/evolution.shtml)

and

Bryant Furnace (http://www.bryant.com/products/furnaces/gas/evolution80.shtml)


2. Coleman Echelon 3 ton 5T Series (15+ SEER / 8.5+ HSPF) with Coleman LX series 96% AFUE "premium" two stage furnace with Honeywell VisionPro 8000 control system. Also comes with media air cleaner and UV.

Coleman Heat Pump (http://www.colemanac.com/homeowners/common/product.asp?fldProdID=12)

and

Coleman Furnace (http://www.colemanac.com/homeowners/common/product.asp?fldProdID=53)

The dealer for system 1 states that the increase in price to upgrade to 96% AFUE Bryant system is not easily justified.

Both seem like very solid systems that would suite our needs very well.

Any input or advice would be appreciated.

[yourairman]

Bryant is pretty much the same exact product as Carrier. The inside equipment will be identical except for the name and model #'s. The outside equipment will use the same components, look slightly different, and be almost as efficient. Evolution controls match Infinity controls to a T.

[mmmm]

Thanks for the info re Carrier being the same as Bryant. I have stumbled on some info pages with Bryant and Carrier models that have the exact same specs ie SEER EER and every other thing listed just different model numbers. Hard to want to pay 30% more for the "same" thing. Still wondering about Coleman.

[yourairman]

I am not familiar with newer Coleman equipment. One thing I do notice is the coleman equipment is quoted with a Honeywell thermostat. This would be a somewhat conventional way of controlling the system. Even though Honeywell can perform many functions with their thermostats they are not set up for digital communication with the equipment they are tied to. The Evolution thermostat(system interface module) communicates completely with both the indoor and outdoor equipment you have listed. It identifies what it is hooked up to and runs the equipment accordingly. No one can compete with what Carrier/Bryant has with their digital communications. There are other manufacturers that have digital communication but they do not take it to the same level.

[dash]

Thanks for the info re Carrier being the same as Bryant. I have stumbled on some info pages with Bryant and Carrier models that have the exact same specs ie SEER EER and every other thing listed just different model numbers. Hard to want to pay 30% more for the "same" thing. Still wondering about Coleman.

Whatever it costs extra for the Carrier,could be the difference in the install by the Contractor. Prices vary around the country,but that's a big difference,and I doubt it's in the equipment cost. Buyer beware!

[rponson]

I don't know what Colman is doing now but I guarentee the controls are not anything like the Evolution/Infinity. You can't beat them for comfort and performance

[jdcoolj]

I am very familiar with both, I have installed and serviced both. There is no comparison Bryant is a much nicer unit than Coleman. Evolution control is very nice.

[mdelliott]

I don't know what they would have charged you for the high efficiency model, but in my honest opinion it's always worth the money to go to a 96% efficient furnace rather than an 80%. More money up front, but you'll be saving costs each month on your utility bills.
Click Here. (http://www.bryant.com/products/furnaces/gas/evolution96.shtml)

If there is an extreme difference between the two prices price shop for an other company that deals with bryant. It is understandable that they would charge a bit more as there is a lot more labor involved & the furnace is more expensive due to different parts/technology involved in the condensing furnace. However, the high efficiency furnace should qualify for the 1500 fed tax credit & in some areas there are rebates involved from the gas suppliers & energy companies. For example, in our area (MA/RI) you can get 400 gas networks rebate (for high eff. gas furnace), 1,500 tax credit (for energy saving equipment), & possibly a rebate for the A/C too. I suppose that it could be different where you live, but that tax credit should definitely be available to you.

[Freezeking2000]

I am a Luxaire dealer which is the same as coleman. I would ask for a comparable quote to a 95% furnace. The Coleman has the same quality as Bryant and with the variable speed condensing furnace the Colemen system would be the better system. If both were 95% furnaces i would go bryant. Make sure Geo-Trac is turned on for humidity control if you go Colemen.

[Freezeking2000]

I am a Luxaire dealer which is the same as coleman. I would ask for a comparable quote to a 95% furnace. The Coleman has the same quality as Bryant and with the variable speed condensing furnace the Colemen system would be the better system. If both were 95% furnaces i would go bryant. Make sure Geo-Trac is turned on for humidity control if you go Colemen.

[mmmm]

................Jan .. Feb Mar .. Apr May ..Jun . Jly Aug Sep. Oct..Nov Dec
High Temp45.5 50.1 55.5 60.8 67.0 72.6 78.9 79.1 74.2 63.0 51.4 45.5
Low Temp 36.7 38.5 40.7 43.5 48.5 53.2 57.3 57.9 54.6 48.1 41.8 37.3
Precip.......6.24 5.07 4.51 3.10 2.49 1.60 .76 .99 1.87 3.39 6.39 6.75

It is my impression that the heat pump will do the majority of the heating and cooling above 40 degrees. As you can see the temperature is relatively mild where I live and i think that is why the dealer said that it may be a long time before the investment for a more efficient furnace pays off. In my best estimation it would be more than 10 years. Also we just received notice that our gas company will be lowering the rates by 14.7% (after raising them 14.5% last year) which was a nice surprise.

Freezeking - I do have a bid from the Bryant dealer for the 96% EFU. It would add approx 10% to the total system cost. Even if I went with the 96% EFU furnace the Bryant dealer would would still be around 15% cheaper than an equivalent Coleman. The 96% EFU furnaces would require new venting with PVC as our current metal pipes would not handle the extra moisture load.

mdelliott - Thank you for your thoughts. I did make sure that the combination that I listed above would qualify for the $1500 tax credit. The dealer provided a AHRI certificate and you can see it here AHRI for Bryant 80% furnace (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=7a5bb980937227c65bf1f12f1ff3f30aba19fca0 7371a4efce018c8114394287)
I am not sure how the certification works but the combined system must work with the heat pump to meet the necessary criteria.

jdcoolj - I am am tending to lean toward the same conclusion. I have not read or heard anyone that is unhappy with the Evolution control.

I think that my game plan will be to call another Bryant dealer to get a second bid. Right now I have 2 dealers bids for Carrier, 2 dealers bids for Coleman, and 1 dealers bid for Bryant.

Everyone cautions that the install is the most important part of the final working system. I have a hard time understanding how it could really be that much difference if you are dealing with NATE certified factory dealer all having 10+ years of experience as is the case with all 5 companies listed above.

Even the company that provided the lowest bid (Bryant) I have numerous friends that have used this company and been very happy with the overall install.

[yourairman]

I am a Luxaire dealer which is the same as coleman. I would ask for a comparable quote to a 95% furnace. The Coleman has the same quality as Bryant and with the variable speed condensing furnace the Colemen system would be the better system. If both were 95% furnaces i would go bryant. Make sure Geo-Trac is turned on for humidity control if you go Colemen.

Is the Coleman system a digital communicating system?

[jdcoolj]

Coleman is not the same quality in my opinion. Bryant has heavier gage steel, better quality paint job, it also has actual service valves not just schrader pins. Believe me it is much nicer than the Coleman, Luxaire, Fraser Johnston and York. I'm not a Bryant or Carrier dealer i speak from experience form service and installation.

[seatonheating]

I'd go goodman.............maybe :).


Hey..mmmm...where are you. I am a carrier dealer and could possibly give you a quote on the carrier stuff if interested and you are close enough proximity to me....


email is joshuaaseaton at yahoo dot com

[tpa-fl]

Why stop at 40F?

I have the Carrier Infinity system in my home, same exact system as the Bryant Evolution Even down to the mid 20's I'm still using only the heat pump for heat.

Admittedly, at the lower temperatures it's not capable of making large quick changes in temperature, but that's fine by me. This system was sized for cooling capacity, not heating. For the same amount of electricity it uses to run the heat strips for 1 hr, the heat pump can run for 3-4 hours, so when it gets that cold out it's cheaper to let the unit run 24/7 and not use a set-back, and my heat strip was sized to be auxillary heat, NOT full backup heat. If the latter were the case the savings would be even greater.

The electric heat lockout on my system's set to 25F, at which point the system has the option of running both the heat strips and heat pump at the same time. Why run both? Just because the heat pump isn't able to carry the load of the whole house doesn't mean it's not producing usable heat. Even at 14F, my heat pump's still > 100% efficient vs. 100% efficient heat strips, so it makes sense to run it.

yourairman brings up a very valid point -- the Coleman systems are NOT communicating systems. The heat pump and air handler/furnace have no idea what the other is doing. With the Infinity/Evolution systems, every component is aware of what the other is doing and adjusts for it. The Infinity/Evolution systems are the only residential systems I'm aware of that allow the heat pump's output (due to outdoor temperature) to directly control the indoor blower speed. This means that even at the coldest of temperatures there's still warm air coming from the vents.

I don't have the option of gas in this part of Tampa, thus the equation was simple for me, electric resistance heat vs. heat pump.

What you need to figure out is how much does 10,000 BTU/h cost you to make with electric,heat pump, and gas for your area and where those prices may be heading. For my location the additional expenses of gas (gas appliances usually are more expensive, plus the $12-20/monthly connection fees, annual inspections of gas appliances) is more than any possible savings I'd see. I certainly wouldn't mind more fuel options , but I'm not about to pay $144-$240/year for the "privilege" of having gas if I'm only going to use it a week or two a year.

[yourairman]

Why stop at 40F?

I have the Carrier Infinity system in my home, same exact system as the Bryant Evolution Even down to the mid 20's I'm still using only the heat pump for heat.

Admittedly, at the lower temperatures it's not capable of making large quick changes in temperature, but that's fine by me. This system was sized for cooling capacity, not heating. For the same amount of electricity it uses to run the heat strips for 1 hr, the heat pump can run for 3-4 hours, so when it gets that cold out it's cheaper to let the unit run 24/7 and not use a set-back, and my heat strip was sized to be auxillary heat, NOT full backup heat. If the latter were the case the savings would be even greater.

The electric heat lockout on my system's set to 25F, at which point the system has the option of running both the heat strips and heat pump at the same time. Why run both? Just because the heat pump isn't able to carry the load of the whole house doesn't mean it's not producing usable heat. Even at 14F, my heat pump's still > 100% efficient vs. 100% efficient heat strips, so it makes sense to run it.

yourairman brings up a very valid point -- the Coleman systems are NOT communicating systems. The heat pump and air handler/furnace have no idea what the other is doing. With the Infinity/Evolution systems, every component is aware of what the other is doing and adjusts for it. The Infinity/Evolution systems are the only residential systems I'm aware of that allow the heat pump's output (due to outdoor temperature) to directly control the indoor blower speed. This means that even at the coldest of temperatures there's still warm air coming from the vents.

I don't have the option of gas in this part of Tampa, thus the equation was simple for me, electric resistance heat vs. heat pump.

What you need to figure out is how much does 10,000 BTU/h cost you to make with electric,heat pump, and gas for your area and where those prices may be heading. For my location the additional expenses of gas (gas appliances usually are more expensive, plus the $12-20/monthly connection fees, annual inspections of gas appliances) is more than any possible savings I'd see. I certainly wouldn't mind more fuel options , but I'm not about to pay $144-$240/year for the "privilege" of having gas if I'm only going to use it a week or two a year.

The other equation you have with the Infinity setup is it will stage in different levels of auxillary heat as opposed to going to full capacity. Which also allows it to run at a lower amp draw. From what the field service rep has said Carrier/Bryant tagged something like 35+ patents on their technology with digital communications. I no longer work for a company with the Carrier line but no one can touch their controls.

[tuklugs]

another thing to look at is how much to replace parts on this bryant system verus the coleman system.

[yourairman]

another thing to look at is how much to replace parts on this bryant system verus the coleman system.

Regardless of what brand is installed, if you are purchasing a mid to upper efficiency system make sure you request a 10 year parts and labor warranty. Repair parts will not be cheap on any brand if it is upper efficiency.

[tpa-fl]

another thing to look at is how much to replace parts on this bryant system verus the coleman system.

Even cheaper to repair than Colemans are are window ACs, would you suggest the original poster use those instead?

The sole purpose of HVAC equipment in residential construction is occupant comfort. Anyone buying an Evolution/Infinity system is looking for comfort, not residential builder-grade junk. Within reason, why bother with how much it costs to repair?

Sounds like the time I had a car saleshole attempting to dissuade a friend from buying a Volkswagen Passat (which he didn't sell). If someone's buying a car solely on price, it'd probably be a Kia something. Instead, I choose to drive luxury cars. Are they more to fix? yes. Worth every penny in my book, particularly when the better handling has gotten me out of a few situations that might have ended badly. and yes, they have better HVAC systems as well.

And let's be totally honest -- ALL of the "American" brands of residential HVAC equipment are rubbish. Poor, archaic engineering, cheap quality parts, loud, large, and low-efficiency compared to what the norm. is for the rest of the world. I have an Infinity in one of my own homes. It's nice, comfortable. But I'll take the Mitsubishis I have abroad any day over it.