Chiller Brands

[Marvolus]

My company has been a faithful Carrier customer. However recently we have noticed a decrease in customer support and even worse, service parts obsolete within 5-10 years of purchase. We are now faced with adding additional chiller capacity. I believe we will consider other than Carrier. Who is the undisputed best air cooled chiller (200ton)? I noticed that the local hospital uses a German manufactured chiller. I did not notice evidence that it was frequently repaired (wire clippings on the ground, marks on the pad from refridgerant cylinders, cover screws worn from removal).

[triggerhappy]

Something made out of the country would not be on the top of my list.

One word for you "Trane".

[Dallas Duster]

My company has been a faithful Carrier customer. However recently we have noticed a decrease in customer support and even worse, service parts obsolete within 5-10 years of purchase. We are now faced with adding additional chiller capacity. I believe we will consider other than Carrier. Who is the undisputed best air cooled chiller (200ton)? I noticed that the local hospital uses a German manufactured chiller. I did not notice evidence that it was frequently repaired (wire clippings on the ground, marks on the pad from refridgerant cylinders, cover screws worn from removal).

What kind of parts are you referring to ?

[heavymetaldad]

still getting service parts for 19c's (38 years old), and we just got a pair of wheels for a 17cb (35 years old - see avatar)

[jsherhvac]

Trane is the only way to go.:payattention:

[turbovac]

we have many air cooled chillers & the trane air cooled rtac is the only
way to go. [in my opinon]

[ChillerWisperer]

Ditto on Trane. Preferably a low pressure machine. It will last practically a lifetime if properly maintained.

[heavymetaldad]

still partial to carrier. they were built indestructible

[heavymetaldad]

except the schrapnel in the avatar

[jayguy]

oh god here we go again.............


standard pat answer:

find out who is the best service company in your area..."best" is a very general term here. best parts availability, best service tech knowledge/response, etc. what is "best" for you may not be "best" for someone else. the only reason i bring this up is because for warranty (most of the time) and parts/technical help you will have to go to the factory office in your area to get that info. there are many service technicians that are not with a factory office that can do a very fine job but you asked about equipment/parts and that means working with the local factory office (at some point in time).

all manufacturers work hard to produce the best stuff and every manufacturer says they make the best stuff.

at the end of the day, what is best in your area may be different than in my area.

i prefer trane myself in general. for a very specific answer, it depends on exactly what type of equipment you are installing.





and last but not least...every piece of equipment installed that was too big or too small or cheaply installed or low bid or or or or....never works for crap. get it engineered correctly and get 3 bids, take the middle bid or high bid. you will not be sorry.


i will now kick the soap box over to some other people :D

[Healey Nut]

Hopefully this thread is not going to turn into a " lets bash the other guy" thread
Naturally im biased but ..... "its hard to stop a Trane"
Jay quit kicking the soapbox its gettin all busted ?????

[zw17]

Another vote for Trane.

What you saw was most likely a Kraus chiller at the hospital, they are used specifically to keep the helium bubbles in MRI machines cool. They are a well built unit and I have been lucky to work on one, I say that sarcastically, they are a royal pain, parts availability is a joke, and it's hard to find techs that are willing to even work on them.

If I never saw another Kraus in my life I wouldn't be sad.

[Randy S.]

What is well supported in one town may not be in another.

Isn't R123 going away in a few years?

[chiller rob]

Trane has always had a great product...
Carrier Aquaforce chiller as of late have been good...
Yorks in the smaller scroll package are agreeable...
I am not sure on the York Latitude variable speed screw...

The chiller i have my eye on now is the generation 3 Smardt air cooled chiller...
They just got out of ARI certification testing and they are claiming iplvs in the 0.57 kw/ ton range (which is remarkable for an air cooled)...
With the extended condenser option they have a fan package (which are all on vfds standard) that only go to 45 hz to keep the sound level down around 80 or so db...
Liquid line recievers to ensure liquid to compressor motor cooling and sporlan exvs...
Available 5 year warranty on the machine or just the oilless turbocor centrifugal compressors...
Excellant for variable primary chilled water flow...

i would highly recommend that there be a quality service company to partner up with if you consider this product especially for a critical load application as these units can be tricky if the technician is not familiar with the oil free technology...
I also would not install in high ambient locals... keep it to areas that only get to 95-100 ambient...

hang on to your wallet...

i just priced a 125 ton unit and they were double the price of the trane... but i think when people take a close look at the energy savings and the sustainability, they will get more popular and the pricing should come down...

If the utility company will give you 45K (0.16 cents/ KW process load) to install one of these guys and you have your energy savings on top of that... its eye opening...

Chiller Rob

[Dallas Duster]

Here`s another way of looking at it. Look at all the threads started in the chiller forum and see which manufacturer has the most problems.:anyone:

[turbomaster]

Here`s another way of looking at it. Look at all the threads started in the chiller forum and see which manufacturer has the most problems.:anyone:

True dat!!!

[turbomaster]

We will be faced with the same decision in a few years. I don't really have a warm fuzzy feeling about any of the major players out there. I've seen them all do their thing and watched the good, the bad, and the ugly. What it boils down to is the reliability, support and parts in YOUR area. You will find this is not the same country wide. Good Carrier support in one area may be not so good in another. Same goes for Johnson and the big T. If you have good relationships with a certain distributor or good contacts with a certain manufacturer then go with that. Some machines are better at certain things than others too. Do your homework, ask people in your area what they think about so and so. Call up the mechanicals and ask them what they think and who they do buisness with. Call up your local engineering firms etc.
Make an informed decision. Obviously Carrier has put a thorn in your side. Call them up too and tell them what you think, go to the top if you need to. It's the only way you will get any satisfaction.
The way I look at it is if somebody pisses you off, give them a chance and if they still piss you off... well then it's time to piss on them!

[zw17]

Here`s another way of looking at it. Look at all the threads started in the chiller forum and see which manufacturer has the most problems.:anyone:

That is a very unfair way to judge chillers or anything else in life....

What if Trane is 90% of what is out at our accounts, it's only logical that 90% of the threads would be about Trane chillers. Doesn't mean they have the most problems.

[Dallas Duster]

That is a very unfair way to judge chillers or anything else in life....

What if Trane is 90% of what is out at our accounts, it's only logical that 90% of the threads would be about Trane chillers. Doesn't mean they have the most problems.

I never mention any manufacturer at all , but somehow you did. Look how the OP was investigating oil stains , screws, and strips of wire on the ground. Is that a better way of judging a brand? I can repair equipment and not leave alot of evidence too!

What about the guys on this board that have 90% Carrier or 90% York etc?

[triggerhappy]

The question about which brand gives the best service.

I can not say that it is 100% accurate but I have found that government agencies with alot of resources tend to do audits on their equiptment.

These are done by pro. companies that take into account % of equipt., age and the whole lot.

If you have any connection to your local school system, or government maint. shops they will probably share an audit with you.

I recently saw one that had been done on a school system with over 400 schools and I was happy with what brand came out on top.

[ChillerWisperer]

What is well supported in one town may not be in another.

Isn't R123 going away in a few years?

R-123 isn't scheduled for phaseout until January 2030

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_CA/sales_support/hcfc_phaseout.html

Recently the japs version of AC/R News (JARN) interviewed Dr. Stephen Andersen of the EPA and his comments highlight the phaseout of R-134A prior to R-123. He points out that even though 123 has a greater ODP, it is a moot point because chillers using it are zero emission. With sufficient quantities being manufactured until 2030 and the fact that very little is lost during normal operation and maintenance, there will be plenty of 123 for years to come after 2030. In addition to that, the EPA will let manufacturers of 123 produce beyond the 2030 phaseout by using ODP unit credits gained by the conversion or decomissioning of R-11 chillers and destroying the R-11. For every two pounds of 11 destroyed, they can produce one pound of 123.

I think Trane made the right gamble by sticking with R-123. They are now the sole manufacturers of a low pressure machine that will likely outlast a lot of the 134A machines being produced by York, Carrier and McQuay. Add to that the inherent efficiency advantage over 134A and it should give them dominance in the market.

I wish I could attach the article here, but it's about 3mb in pdf format. If anyone wants it, let me know and I will email it to you.

[edward j]

It seems to me that this forum is dominated by Trane techs who believe they have or provide good service.
If you look at the posts and then say who has the best chiller or the best service it most definately is NOT Trane.
Firstly you do a disloyalty to The Trane company and secondly you show up your incompetance in servicing their equipment, by asking the most basic questions and any understanding of the equipment design.
The other OEMs techs do not show up there in house problems so why do Trane techs? have such a problem of an open forum to discuss just about every discission which Trane adopt.
The best chiller to buy is the one where you can obtain service support and the OEM will not run away from their product? AND now you can tell me how many OEMs have not done so

[Randy S.]

I had the local Y office refuse to give me a part number last winter.

That certainly helps customer loyalty.

[edward j]

R-123 isn't scheduled for phaseout until January 2030

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_CA/sales_support/hcfc_phaseout.html

Recently the japs version of AC/R News (JARN) interviewed Dr. Stephen Andersen of the EPA and his comments highlight the phaseout of R-134A prior to R-123. He points out that even though 123 has a greater ODP, it is a moot point because chillers using it are zero emission. With sufficient quantities being manufactured until 2030 and the fact that very little is lost during normal operation and maintenance, there will be plenty of 123 for years to come after 2030. In addition to that, the EPA will let manufacturers of 123 produce beyond the 2030 phaseout by using ODP unit credits gained by the conversion or decomissioning of R-11 chillers and destroying the R-11. For every two pounds of 11 destroyed, they can produce one pound of 123.

I think Trane made the right gamble by sticking with R-123. They are now the sole manufacturers of a low pressure machine that will likely outlast a lot of the 134A machines being produced by York, Carrier and McQuay. Add to that the inherent efficiency advantage over 134A and it should give them dominance in the market.

I wish I could attach the article here, but it's about 3mb in pdf format. If anyone wants it, let me know and I will email it to you.

Are you for real or what if you understand the realty you would know that the the is that for ever conversion the reality was R 12 AND R11 being released to atmosphere. This is why every manufacturer pushed for containment
If you do your research you will understand the associated costs of gettinmg rid of these refrigerants.
Trane of course made the right discission R 123 IS the most efficient refrigerant, odp, gwp and atmospheric life is way below R 134a

[NWMech]

I wish I could attach the article here, but it's about 3mb in pdf format. If anyone wants it, let me know and I will email it to you.

I'd really like to see that article if you don't mind sending it.

[allstar08]

Trane has always had a great product...
Carrier Aquaforce chiller as of late have been good...
Yorks in the smaller scroll package are agreeable...
I am not sure on the York Latitude variable speed screw...

The chiller i have my eye on now is the generation 3 Smardt air cooled chiller...
They just got out of ARI certification testing and they are claiming iplvs in the 0.57 kw/ ton range (which is remarkable for an air cooled)...
With the extended condenser option they have a fan package (which are all on vfds standard) that only go to 45 hz to keep the sound level down around 80 or so db...
Liquid line recievers to ensure liquid to compressor motor cooling and sporlan exvs...
Available 5 year warranty on the machine or just the oilless turbocor centrifugal compressors...
Excellant for variable primary chilled water flow...

i would highly recommend that there be a quality service company to partner up with if you consider this product especially for a critical load application as these units can be tricky if the technician is not familiar with the oil free technology...
I also would not install in high ambient locals... keep it to areas that only get to 95-100 ambient...

hang on to your wallet...

i just priced a 125 ton unit and they were double the price of the trane... but i think when people take a close look at the energy savings and the sustainability, they will get more popular and the pricing should come down...

If the utility company will give you 45K (0.16 cents/ KW process load) to install one of these guys and you have your energy savings on top of that... its eye opening...

Chiller Rob

I have a data center with 2 240ton, air cooler Smardt Chillers, and the energy savings are amazing. They use 1/2 of the kw as the Carriers and do more work. I would say make sure you get the Sporlan valves. You also need to have one of their guys commision it, it makes a big difference.

[captinsano]

blah blah blah dont bash the brands you dont know how to fix,there are some complicated machines out that work well if you understand anything besides stack heavy parts off stack heavy parts back on,and who the hell wants to do all those oilchanges low pressure is a dying breed so get over it.

[drivewizard]

Nah, changed my mind. Not gonna bite. Bed time and I think the Mrs.
misses me. :deadhorse:

[MikeTx7]

Hey guys, asked this a few weeks back but didn't get any responses - anyone work on Dimplex brand chillers? I have a tactical electronic system which uses a 20-ton Dimplex, it appears to be a commercial off the shelf technical chiller painted tan for military application. The Navy guys supporting the system are turning it over to the Army (me) soon. Currently I have no chillers in inventory I work on, only package units, so not really up on chiller stuff. I'm supposed to get vendor training on this thing hopefully early next year. Until then I'm on my own. Anything I should know about these things?

[ChillerWisperer]

I'd really like to see that article if you don't mind sending it.

On it's way, bro.

[ChillerWisperer]

Are you for real or what if you understand the realty you would know that the the is that for ever conversion the reality was R 12 AND R11 being released to atmosphere. This is why every manufacturer pushed for containment
If you do your research you will understand the associated costs of gettinmg rid of these refrigerants.
Trane of course made the right discission R 123 IS the most efficient refrigerant, odp, gwp and atmospheric life is way below R 134a

Good example of why the chiller forum should be in the pro section.

A properly done conversion releases less refrigerant into the atmosphere than routine maintenance on an RTU. The reclaimed R-11 will eventually have to be disposed of, but in the meantime there are still a lot of chillers that will be using it for a while to come. Sure, Trane would love to sell a lot more Centravacs, but conversion is a viable and cost effective alternative in many applications. At least we agree that Trane made the right decision by sticking with 123.

[ChillerWisperer]

and who the hell wants to do all those oilchanges low pressure is a dying breed so get over it.

Oil changes? What oil changes? On a low speed direct drive centrifugal you only need to change the oil when an oil analysis indicates it. I've taken care of machines that still had the same oil charge since commissioning. Some in the 8 to 10 year range. Just change the filter and oil analysis and you're good to go.

Why do you think low pressure machines are a dying breed? I don't think so at all. With the phaseout of 123 still 20 years away, there's still a lot of life in low pressure, my friend. LaCrosse is cranking them out as fast as they can produce them for the world market.

[scuby22]

Are you for real or what if you understand the realty you would know that the the is that for ever conversion the reality was R 12 AND R11 being released to atmosphere. This is why every manufacturer pushed for containment
If you do your research you will understand the associated costs of gettinmg rid of these refrigerants.
Trane of course made the right discission R 123 IS the most efficient refrigerant, odp, gwp and atmospheric life is way below R 134a

I would like to know why you made the above comment?

I would like to clarify, R 123 is the most efficient and has the lowest GWP.
It also has the highest ODP.

You are correct, it's atmospheric life is shorter than 134a.

Unfortunately, R 123 degrades the ozone while in the atmosphere. R 134a does nothing when released.

The ODP of R 134a is worse then R 123, but the effects of the ODP occur during the production of R 134a, not the release into atmosphere.

Regards,

[grendil]

Trane!!

[captinsano]

trane weeeeeeeeeek!HP all the way

[chiller-thriller]

Hey, chillerwhisperer, I'd sure like to read that article.
Low pressure forever!
Trane, all the way!

[ChillerWisperer]

Hey, chillerwhisperer, I'd sure like to read that article.
Low pressure forever!
Trane, all the way!

Just sent it to you.

[budglo]

Heck I still service a ton of Carrier r-11 machines.I dont need a resperator when i recover it either. I have worked on Trane, Carrier and york lp machines and i like the Carrier myself.We have very few problems with them and there is still a ton of them out in the field.

[klove]

Oil changes? What oil changes? On a low speed direct drive centrifugal you only need to change the oil when an oil analysis indicates it. I've taken care of machines that still had the same oil charge since commissioning. Some in the 8 to 10 year range. Just change the filter and oil analysis and you're good to go......

There are pros and cons to both high and low pressure centrifugals. I personally like both. This particular topic concerning low pressure and lack of all need for oil changes has been a bone of contention for quite some time, however, so I think that I'll briefly hijack this thread and voice an opinion.

Do I believe that oil needs to be changed every year in LP's? No. But I have seen oil drawn for analysis that you couldn't see through in a glass container, when it started out light honey gold to clear, and the report came back that the oil was fine - keep on runnin' the thing. I've seen it on York's, Trane's, Carrier's, etc.

No matter how tight a machine is kept, there will be air - and therefore moisture - ingress into the machine, if from nothing else, changing the oil filter. This, coupled with the natural breakdown of mineral oil from heat, doesn't make for a long life for the oil lubricated parts and pieces of the machine. I use analysis, coupled with visual inspection, machine history, and sometimes I even throw experience and plain old gut feeling in there - but NOBODY will ever succeed in convincing me that you can run the same oil in ANY machine for 8 + years and it's still going to be as good as new.

Synthetic oil in HP machines will definitely go a little longer, but contrary to what popular opinion is by one particular manufacturer, nothing lasts forever. I've always wondered how many machines die a premature death due to this practice. I personally know of chillers that have the same oil in them 15 years after commissioning (other than what was added to make up for filter change and sample losses). The stuff looked like molasses in the sample bottle. I'm sorry, folks, I just don't buy it..................

[ChillerWisperer]

There are pros and cons to both high and low pressure centrifugals. I personally like both. This particular topic concerning low pressure and lack of all need for oil changes has been a bone of contention for quite some time, however, so I think that I'll briefly hijack this thread and voice an opinion.

Do I believe that oil needs to be changed every year in LP's? No. But I have seen oil drawn for analysis that you couldn't see through in a glass container, when it started out light honey gold to clear, and the report came back that the oil was fine - keep on runnin' the thing. I've seen it on York's, Trane's, Carrier's, etc.

No matter how tight a machine is kept, there will be air - and therefore moisture - ingress into the machine, if from nothing else, changing the oil filter. This, coupled with the natural breakdown of mineral oil from heat, doesn't make for a long life for the oil lubricated parts and pieces of the machine. I use analysis, coupled with visual inspection, machine history, and sometimes I even throw experience and plain old gut feeling in there - but NOBODY will ever succeed in convincing me that you can run the same oil in ANY machine for 8 + years and it's still going to be as good as new.

Synthetic oil in HP machines will definitely go a little longer, but contrary to what popular opinion is by one particular manufacturer, nothing lasts forever. I've always wondered how many machines die a premature death due to this practice. I personally know of chillers that have the same oil in them 15 years after commissioning (other than what was added to make up for filter change and sample losses). The stuff looked like molasses in the sample bottle. I'm sorry, folks, I just don't buy it..................

I agree with that a lot. I have a few machines where just visual inspection of the oil would make me want to change it, but the oil analysis comes back clean. Tranes contention is that a trend of wear analysis is lost as soon as you change the oil. Makes you wonder just what is in the oil to cause the color change that they obviously don't test for. I've often wanted to send it to another lab just to see if their results were the same as the Trane lab. At Trane, there was always a CYA attitude; that is: if you had a good analysis and had made the recommendation to the customer that it would be a good idea to change it anyway, but they signed off on it...we were covered in the event of a catastrophic failure, which then became a prime sales opportunity. Sad but true.

[Marvolus]

Getting a lot of good input and appreciate that greatly from all. Just to give a little more clarification to my original thread. We have several Carrier chillers; most are Aquaforce air cooled or similar. They range in size from 125ton to 300. As Engineering manager, I don’t directly work on the units but have around 12 techs that do. As you would expect their skill sets vary. We also call in Carrier to conduct some task. But in any case, I have noticed an increase in simple part failure such as condenser fans, pressure switches, etc that should last more than a year. One of units that was seven years old lost a control board. The Carrier tech said the board is obsolete and that particular unit was being phased out. He just gave me a great reason to consider other than Carrier. As with any manufacturing company we have many different types of machinery ranging greatly in levels of sophistication. I can tell you there is no big science here and there is no good reason these machines should have the problems that they often have. A new chiller should not loose five of its condenser fans by year two; that’s just poor craftsmanship. Carrier covered the parts by warranty but the downtime is killing us. One post said I should stay away from European chillers with no explanation why. I’ve seen a lot of these recently and I can’t see how it would be any different than the scores of other European machinery our factory has. True, parts and labor would be scarcer but if it means less unscheduled downtime, it would be worth it. Not trying to be un-American but I have hundreds of US jobs that count on our productivity.

[drivewizard]

Getting a lot of good input and appreciate that greatly from all. Just to give a little more clarification to my original thread. We have several Carrier chillers; most are Aquaforce air cooled or similar. They range in size from 125ton to 300. As Engineering manager, I don’t directly work on the units but have around 12 techs that do. As you would expect their skill sets vary. We also call in Carrier to conduct some task. But in any case, I have noticed an increase in simple part failure such as condenser fans, pressure switches, etc that should last more than a year. One of units that was seven years old lost a control board. The Carrier tech said the board is obsolete and that particular unit was being phased out. He just gave me a great reason to consider other than Carrier. As with any manufacturing company we have many different types of machinery ranging greatly in levels of sophistication. I can tell you there is no big science here and there is no good reason these machines should have the problems that they often have. A new chiller should not loose five of its condenser fans by year two; that’s just poor craftsmanship. Carrier covered the parts by warranty but the downtime is killing us. One post said I should stay away from European chillers with no explanation why. I’ve seen a lot of these recently and I can’t see how it would be any different than the scores of other European machinery our factory has. True, parts and labor would be scarcer but if it means less unscheduled downtime, it would be worth it. Not trying to be un-American but I have hundreds of US jobs that count on our productivity.


I think you may be one of many vitims of Corporate greed.
It is not just a Carrier thing, (even though I am not a big Carrier fan), all Manuf. suffer from this mentality.
Or should I say, the Customers suffer.
When Co.s try to squeeze the last .01 cent out of production costs to increase profits, they put the squeeze on their vendors who provide the parts that make up their equipment.
As long as warranty costs stay below a certain %, and units make it out of warranty period the downward spiral will continue.
Also, I would bet money a lot of these parts were made in third world countrys, with low labor costs.

You have to remember, most of these parts that are failing are not made by Carrier, Trane, York, etc. Most Major equipment manuf do not make their own components, with the possible exception of Compressors, and some control boards. Cond fans, contactors, relays, etc, are usually made by other Manuf.s that "specialize" in those components.
Not trying to "preach", (just comes natural) you probably already know this.

Until Customers start to demand quality rather than low price, and are willing to pay more for it get used to more failures and downtime.

[Dallas Duster]

I think you may be one of many vitims of Corporate greed.
It is not just a Carrier thing, (even though I am not a big Carrier fan), all Manuf. suffer from this mentality.
Or should I say, the Customers suffer.
When Co.s try to squeeze the last .01 cent out of production costs to increase profits, they put the squeeze on their vendors who provide the parts that make up their equipment.
As long as warranty costs stay below a certain %, and units make it out of warranty period the downward spiral will continue.
Also, I would bet money a lot of these parts were made in third world countrys, with low labor costs.

You have to remember, most of these parts that are failing are not made by Carrier, Trane, York, etc. Most Major equipment manuf do not make their own components, with the possible exception of Compressors, and some control boards. Cond fans, contactors, relays, etc, are usually made by other Manuf.s that "specialize" in those components.
Not trying to "preach", (just comes natural) you probably already know this.

Until Customers start to demand quality rather than low price, and are willing to pay more for it get used to more failures and downtime.

I couldn`t agree with you more on the quality of parts made for the Big 3.

[jiffypop]

Go with a turbocor product you wont believe the savings. We have several sites with various configurations both water cooled aircooled chillers and DX systems 2 of which we built ourselves the possibilities for this product are great and you will be seeing it alot more in the near future.

[brooklyntech]

Try getting prices from JCI lately? Like pulling teeth. As far as machines-TRANE. Hands down, whether its from Clarksville, Pueblo, Lacrosse, Macon or from the always secretive "Yellow Rock"- TRANE hands down. Its my pleasure to work on Trane Equipment. Heres my ranking(for what its worth):
1. Trane
2. York
3. Carrier
4. Arctic Chill (makes a nice modular chiller- nice to work on, except for the plated heat exchangers-thats another thread)
5. McQuay

[New YORKer]

I'm not going to push a product on you but air cooled chillers are packaged you're going to have winners and loosers with all manufactures. As an engineer you should know to look at the numbers. Luckily you're under 250 Tons so the ARI data provided should be certified and not an expected or calculated performance values.

I don't know where you're located and I don't know you're system. I'm assuming most of the time you're going to be in a partload condition which would lead you to look at higher partload machine. Oh and always buy the 5 compressor warranty.

[Marvolus]

Try getting prices from JCI lately? Like pulling teeth. As far as machines-TRANE. Hands down, whether its from Clarksville, Pueblo, Lacrosse, Macon or from the always secretive "Yellow Rock"- TRANE hands down. Its my pleasure to work on Trane Equipment. Heres my ranking(for what its worth):
1. Trane
2. York
3. Carrier
4. Arctic Chill (makes a nice modular chiller- nice to work on, except for the plated heat exchangers-thats another thread)
5. McQuay


Thanks Brooklyntech! I see you as many others seem to like Trane. Would this be because they are easy to repair or they seldom need repair (sorry, I have to ask). I've heard many respond from a tech perspective; how about the consumer?

[brooklyntech]

Trane is user friendly. Great technical supportn parts availability + quality trained mechanics. Nothing wrong with other brands. Just preference. Someguys like Ford, others Chevy, me I'm a Dodge man. Long live 69 Charger.

[Dallas Duster]

Thanks Brooklyntech! I see you as many others seem to like Trane. Would this be because they are easy to repair or they seldom need repair (sorry, I have to ask). I've heard many respond from a tech perspective; how about the consumer?

You know you never said what kind of equipment you have. You also never elaborated on what kind of parts are supposed to be obselete, on your chillers:det:?

[LyJoDrFk]

If your company production depends on it, go York, specially if your are selecting water cooled equipment, if you run a Department Store or any other comfort cooling application go with the others. In our area we have a lot of Pharmaceutical sites, 80% are York, that should tell you something!!:whistle:

[ChillerWisperer]

If your company production depends on it, go York, specially if your are selecting water cooled equipment, if you run a Department Store or any other comfort cooling application go with the others. In our area we have a lot of Pharmaceutical sites, 80% are York, that should tell you something!!:whistle:

What empirical data do you base your facts on, or is it just an opinion based on anecdotal observations and hearsay evidence?

[klove]

Since jci bought York and I/R bought Trane, I don't know that I'd want either one of 'em.

[Marvolus]

[QUOTE=ChillerWisperer;4635092]What empirical data do you base your facts on, or is it just an opinion based on anecdotal observations and hearsay evidence?[/QUOTE


I'm fine with opinion in this case. I certainly wouldnt go to an internet message board if I was seeking specific facts. I just want to see if there is a brand that is clearly preferred. If 78 of 100 all see that "X" brand is best; there's usually a reason.

[kwhit]

R-123 isn't scheduled for phaseout until January 2030

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_CA/sales_support/hcfc_phaseout.html

Recently the japs version of AC/R News (JARN) interviewed Dr. Stephen Andersen of the EPA and his comments highlight the phaseout of R-134A prior to R-123. He points out that even though 123 has a greater ODP, it is a moot point because chillers using it are zero emission. With sufficient quantities being manufactured until 2030 and the fact that very little is lost during normal operation and maintenance, there will be plenty of 123 for years to come after 2030. In addition to that, the EPA will let manufacturers of 123 produce beyond the 2030 phaseout by using ODP unit credits gained by the conversion or decomissioning of R-11 chillers and destroying the R-11. For every two pounds of 11 destroyed, they can produce one pound of 123.

I think Trane made the right gamble by sticking with R-123. They are now the sole manufacturers of a low pressure machine that will likely outlast a lot of the 134A machines being produced by York, Carrier and McQuay. Add to that the inherent efficiency advantage over 134A and it should give them dominance in the market.

I wish I could attach the article here, but it's about 3mb in pdf format. If anyone wants it, let me know and I will email it to you.

Could you please send me a copy of this article?

[ChillerWisperer]

Could you please send me a copy of this article?

Done! Please feel free to share your opinions and thoughts after you read it.

[ice_cube_30]

TRANE,TRANE,TRANE,TRANE. Best chillers in the country. R123 going away might happen, might not, my guess is not. We are still producing it selling it and plan to keep on selling it. Bottom line is if you want a great chiller buy a trane.

[milkyway]

the rtaa.,cvhe and f., all the way

[dilysi_3]

the german brand you might be refering to is Bitzer. Right now they are starting to produce them right in Syracuse NY, Right down the road from Carrier designed by some of the same people who designed carriers units.

[PEM]

TRANE,TRANE,TRANE,TRANE. Best chillers in the country. R123 going away might happen, might not, my guess is not. We are still producing it selling it and plan to keep on selling it. Bottom line is if you want a great chiller buy a trane.

R-123 is a great refrigerant, but it's going away.

[Randy S.]

At least Trane doesn't have a shaft seal that you have to wrestle the local OEM office for the part number of. But I bet they sell 75 dollar a gallon Oil 22 that is really 4GS.

[dswilliams]

There are pro's and con's to all machines. At my previous job, which was at a semiconductor plant for 15 years, I was responsible for all repairs, and maintenance of 27 centrifugals. Carrier 19XL,19EX, Trane CVHE, CVHF, and York YT, 450 ton thru 2000 ton. We also had 30 or so 200-400 ton screws, McQuay ALSA, Mycom 60's, and Trane RTAA, and RTAC. The only destructive failure I had in those 15 yrs was the Trane CVHE1250 ton which had a rotor bar issue, which has been an issue for Trane. As run hours increased open and inspects began on all. All but one of the Carriers had bearings out of spec after 25K-30K run hours. The 19EX mostly had issues with condenser tube failures. We had the most compressor failures on the ALS A vintage for obvious reasons, and RTAA's that we used on a 0 degree F glycol system. The latest additions to the plant just prior to me leaving 2 yrs ago were two Trane CVHF1750 chillers. Great KW/ton, but on one of them the fluid pump was seized on start up, and that machine has had two thrust bearings replaced since start up 2 years ago. One by Trane techs while labor was in warranty, and the second by in house tech. The York YT's, even with the latest greatest bellows shaft seal configuration still have issues with leaks, but they do great with low condenser water temps, and are simple to overhaul. R123 is going away, but don't underestimate the lobbyists to keep it around as long as possible.

[opc]

I've just joined, so forgive me if this has been mentioned but in the UK it is now illegal to use virgin R123 and only recycled R123 is allowed for topping up systems. This has been the case since January 2010.

[minimoose]

I hope someone can assist me with the following:

We are in South Africa and absorption chillers are still very new for us.

Could you possibly advise me on any good and bad experience you have had with absorption chillers with lithium bromide?

As there are a few companies to choose from (Broad, Trane, York, Sanyo), we are not sure how to go about choosing a company, what suggestions would you make?

What are the most common problems experienced with these products?


Thanks

[klove]

I hope someone can assist me with the following:

We are in South Africa and absorption chillers are still very new for us.

Could you possibly advise me on any good and bad experience you have had with absorption chillers with lithium bromide?

As there are a few companies to choose from (Broad, Trane, York, Sanyo), we are not sure how to go about choosing a company, what suggestions would you make?

What are the most common problems experienced with these products?


Thanks

You probably need to start a thread with this question as the topic if you want as much response as possible.

As far as absorbers, they're like anything else - there's good and bad to all. I don't have a lot of personal experience with anything other than the York machines, and they do pretty well, especially the 2 stage. No matter who builds it, an absorber is maintenance intensive, but if you look after them and keep them tight, they'll last a long time and make a lot of cold water. If you learn what makes 'em tick, they're really good as a source of job security, too.