Gas furnace installs

[sarge]

Lets try this agian. A few of last winters gas furnace installs. New platform, fitler base, flue pipe, drain line float switch.
http://www.hvacloads.com/talkpics/wallofpride/167868_brownfurnace.jpg

http://www.hvacloads.com/talkpics/wallofpride/167867_saldana1.jpg

[actnowhvac]

Nice workmanship. Like the clear pine trim.
Go for a box of cable staples.

[dakers]

Nice!

Where's the drip leg on the Trane?

[crzshn]

NIce gas line :) is that Lennox plugged in ? Where am I Wall of ?

[Steve Wiggins]

For my northern friends gas furnaces in closets are the norm in TX. All of them are installed with an electrical pigtail plugged in. That is what the closet is set up for so that is what gets done.

All furnaces have gas flex connectors and no dripleg. Code requires rigid pipe to penetrate the cabinet wall (as in the Trane pic) but inspectors haven't been calling that a violation in my area.

[sarge]

ok, ok I see the wire nuts now too. Sheesh.

This just makes me(us) want to do better, thanks.

[Servicepro]

Hey Steve

I find it interesting to see different style of work in different regions.
I get the impression from the pictures that the main return is right below the furnace out front from one grill.
What size grill do they normally use in such a installation?
It would seem that a system like this would have a lot of air noise through the grill.
Then most homes do not have a full basement?

Where I am from the homes have a full basement where the furnace is placed and you would have multiple returns.

Do they use just a single return in these type of applications or would they duct multiple returns from below the furnace via a crawlspace?

I also notice the use of duct sealer on the supply , I gather this is because of the supply duct in the attic?

Thanks in advance of your response.
Servicepro

[Steve Wiggins]

Slab on grade, one single return in most cases. A return in each room is not recommended by the experts in this case, but transfer grilles are esp in the master bdrm.

Grille size is usually 144sq.in. per ton, 166 on heat pumps.

Yes they do make some noise, mostly bother women and not men.

Gas furnaces make more noise than do electric fan/coil units.

[Edited by Steve Wiggins on 09-04-2003 at 11:05 PM]

[Steve Wiggins]

I don't see any combustion air on the Trane install????

[mayguy]

A return in each room is not recommended by the experts in this case

Why would that be?? Here in the midwest, you got them in every room but the kichen, and bathroom.. By doing the return in each room gives a much better comfort, and quietness...

[sarge]

Older, smaller, single story homes like these with the furnace/airhandler in a cetral closet never have mulitple returns. Why? No place to put a return duct to the blower without taking up more sqaure footage of living area. Most rely on not having all of the bedroom doors closed all the time. Some have under cut doors and some have cross-over ducts.

Units installed in the attic will have multiple returns, but not one to every room.

[iceman2_us]

If you're going to do it, do it right and put a return in every room but the kitchen and bathroom. If nothing else, put in "jumper returns". If the customer wants comfort, they'll pay for it, if not, they have no one to blame but themselves, but they have to be informed.

[Steve Wiggins]

A return in every room is not doing it right, it is doing it old school. We have learned a lot about building science since then.

[iceman2_us]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
A return in every room is not doing it right, it is doing it old school. We have learned a lot about building science since then. [/QUOTE "Old school" or not, isn't customer comfort the issue?
Cutting down a door at the bottom to draw return is "Fred Flintstone School"
If we are placing X amount of air into the room, it stands to reason we should be removing that same amount. "Old School" is right!

[goose67]

is the camera off set or does that furnace need a level!

[aircooled53]

Great pic but, I have a question for you.
1) Where is the upper & lower combustion?
2) I was wondering also if that Lennox is 6" from the door.

Just a thought,we get rubbed for this in Ft.Worth all the time.

Not trying to put down the installation,looks great....

Wish they all looked that good when you get there to service a unit.It's nice to see that a few of us still have workmanship.......

[Steve Wiggins]

The Lennox looks to be 6" back but I thought the clearance to combustables was 3" in the front??

[iceman2_us]

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
The Lennox looks to be 6" back but I thought the clearance to combustables was 3" in the front?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's 6" clearance from the front of the furnace to combustibles. I'm not a Lennox dealer, but 6" is pretty much the industry standard on 80% gas furnaces.

[Wannamakeice]

Originally posted by iceman2_us
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
A return in every room is not doing it right, it is doing it old school. We have learned a lot about building science since then. [/QUOTE "Old school" or not, isn't customer comfort the issue?
Cutting down a door at the bottom to draw return is "Fred Flintstone School"
If we are placing X amount of air into the room, it stands to reason we should be removing that same amount. "Old School" is right!


In some cases a return in every room but the bthrm and kitchen is a waste of both the clients and installers money and time . Not to mention the room to do this if the apart/house was built for this set up , which is still done frequently everywhere in the USA .

As far as alot of noise thru the grill , no more noise from one grill than two if sized correctly.

I myself can see atleast 6" from door if not more, on both , how long have some of you been using a tapemeasure.....

As far as a drip leg , even with flex pipe ( which is legal in most states) I myself would always install a drip leg for warranty issues and charge it to the customer , easy to do . You have to hard pipe outside of the cabinet anyways , why not install a drip leg , takes about 1 dollar more material and an extra 3 minutes , well worth the security of the gas valve .

As far as the insulation on the drain line ....to gawdy and overdone .

[thero]

Originally posted by iceman2_us

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
The Lennox looks to be 6" back but I thought the clearance to combustables was 3" in the front?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's 6" clearance from the front of the furnace to combustibles. I'm not a Lennox dealer, but 6" is pretty much the industry standard on 80% gas furnaces.

Maybe you're thinking about six inches from the flue?

[iceman2_us]

Originally posted by thero

Originally posted by iceman2_us

Originally posted by Steve Wiggins
The Lennox looks to be 6" back but I thought the clearance to combustables was 3" in the front?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's 6" clearance from the front of the furnace to combustibles. I'm not a Lennox dealer, but 6" is pretty much the industry standard on 80% gas furnaces.

Maybe you're thinking about six inches from the flue? Well, you are correct, according to National Fire Code there shall be six inches clearance from combustibles when using single wall pipe, one inch when using "B" vent.
But that isn't what I was refering to, I was refering to minimum clearance from the front of the furnace to combustibles.

[sarge]

[/B][/QUOTE]
As far as the insulation on the drain line ....to gawdy and overdone . [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, but Texas energy code requires 1/2 armaflex on drain lines inside a building, even or should I say especially in the attic.

[Wannamakeice]

Originally posted by sarge

As far as the insulation on the drain line ....to gawdy and overdone . [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, but Texas energy code requires 1/2 armaflex on drain lines inside a building, even or should I say especially in the attic. [/B][/QUOTE]

I can see that since an attic is a non conditioned space above a ceiling and it might hold water . is it code you must glue it(the insulation) so it holds the water in case of a leak ? insulate in all app's? Thats like insulating waste pipe exiting your toilet or sink in a conditioned space , just no reason for it ,their not going to sweat. sounds like something the govt. would ask for.

[iceman2_us]

Originally posted by Wannamakeice

Originally posted by sarge

As far as the insulation on the drain line ....to gawdy and overdone .

Yeah, but Texas energy code requires 1/2 armaflex on drain lines inside a building, even or should I say especially in the attic. [/B][/QUOTE]

I can see that since an attic is a non conditioned space above a ceiling and it might hold water . is it code you must glue it(the insulation) so it holds the water in case of a leak ? insulate in all app's? Thats like insulating waste pipe exiting your toilet or sink in a conditioned space , just no reason for it ,their not going to sweat. sounds like something the govt. would ask for. [/B][/QUOTE]An un-insulated condensate drain line in an attic will sweat, I've seen it way too many times over the course of my 23 years in this business! Sarge was right in insulating the drain line, keep up the good work sarge!!

[Wannamakeice]

Originally posted by iceman2_us

Originally posted by Wannamakeice

Originally posted by sarge

As far as the insulation on the drain line ....to gawdy and overdone .

Yeah, but Texas energy code requires 1/2 armaflex on drain lines inside a building, even or should I say especially in the attic.

I can see that since an attic is a non conditioned space above a ceiling and it might hold water . is it code you must glue it(the insulation) so it holds the water in case of a leak ? insulate in all app's? Thats like insulating waste pipe exiting your toilet or sink in a conditioned space , just no reason for it ,their not going to sweat. sounds like something the govt. would ask for. [/B][/QUOTE]An un-insulated condensate drain line in an attic will sweat, I've seen it way too many times over the course of my 23 years in this business! Sarge was right in insulating the drain line, keep up the good work sarge!! [/B][/QUOTE]

In an attic , these pics are not of an attic or non conditioned space . But all said , its code and what must be done .

[absrbrtek]

Ice
My toilets sweat in the summer if they get a heavy enough usage. The 60F or so water comming in will be below dewpoint on humid days causing this. I havent armaflexed my thrones yet though. :)


Originally posted by Wannamakeice
I can see that since an attic is a non conditioned space above a ceiling and it might hold water . is it code you must glue it(the insulation) so it holds the water in case of a leak ? insulate in all app's? Thats like insulating waste pipe exiting your toilet or sink in a conditioned space , just no reason for it ,their not going to sweat. sounds like something the govt. would ask for. [/B]

[Wannamakeice]

It must be the plumber in me , forget it.

[troyacguy]

sorry don't meen to bash. but i don't see combustion air. if the doors are louverd the return will take the combustion air from closet. I see it all the time causing a old unit to back draft this won't with the induced draft but it won't run corect after home owner fills it up with stuff.

[Breeze]

Originally posted by troyacguy
sorry don't meen to bash. but i don't see combustion air. if the doors are louverd the return will take the combustion air from closet. I see it all the time causing a old unit to back draft this won't with the induced draft but it won't run corect after home owner fills it up with stuff.

Ok I was searching for something on exchanger cameras and somehow got stuck on this thread.

Combustion air is above the coil area where you can't see it in picture. This is a retrofit, IMO, so the code on 2 pipes 12" from bottom and 12" from top usually are not enforced. There does have to be a screened opening in the ceiling above furnace.
As for drain lines, we have to insulate them here and yes they will sweat in a closet.

Good job sarge.

[speckledflounder]

To: wannamakeice

Noise at RAG comes from no ductwork / elbows for sound attenuation - not sizing. The noise has almost a direct path thru bottom of furnace & out grille to the room.

In a small house a single return would be OK, but in medium to larger homes or multi-story homes a direct return in each room will unquestionably provide a more comfortable environment.

[iceman2_us]

Originally posted by speckledflounder
To: wannamakeice

Noise at RAG comes from no ductwork / elbows for sound attenuation - not sizing. The noise has almost a direct path thru bottom of furnace & out grille to the room.

In a small house a single return would be OK, but in medium to larger homes or multi-story homes a direct return in each room will unquestionably provide a more comfortable environment. Good to see someone else out there that does it right! Thanks flounder!

[total home]

are the floor and walls fire rated? go the extra mile! the total home way!

[hvac45]

Sarge I think you did a good job, These guys are getting carried away, this was a change out not new construction.

[coolingitrite]

kinda looks like a install I seen when i was down in san antonio looks pretty normal compared to that one