Trane solid state starters

[bamatech]

Is anyone experiencing a high failure rate on the cutler hammer solid state starters used on Trane cvhf's ? We have a site with two of these machines and both have had starters replaced and now have one with a 2nd failure in under 2 years ? Customer is very unhappy . Any responses will be appreciated.

[Octopus]

Dirty power? Line sag surges? Do you have a line mon on either units?

[always looking]

We had that problem on 4 units at the same site. Helps to blow out the starter and keep them clean. We haven't had a problem sense.

[ChillerWisperer]

I haven't had a lot of exposure to solid state starters on Tranes. For some reason they're not too popular down in SW Florida. Not like Yorks...they're everywhere. Of the 4 machines I've come across. All RTHB's of about 98 or 99 vintage, all have had new logic modules and at least one power pole replaced, some multiple times. One of the sites pulled them about a year ago and put in RTHD's with wye-delta starters just because of all the problems and the overly expensive replacement parts. Last time I replaced a logic module, I think it was around $4K pre markup and that was several years ago.

[bamatech]

Thanks for the responses. Had power company run a monitor on one of the machines for about a month. They claim all was fine but not long after we began having quick power outages again.Just had starter on other machine and dc power supply replaced by local
Trane office. Running ok now.Also installed latest version of software for CH530.Version 13 and have limited free restarts to one thinking possibly heat builds in starter causing issues. There is a new fan kit that is supposed to help cool the starter but is pricey and customer is hesitant to spend the money if it is not a fix for the problem. I feel like it is power related but don't think power co will admit to such. Would love to see wye delta starters installed but not holding my breath on that one either. Just seems that 3 starters in 6 yrs on 2 machines is excessive.Especially with 2 starters on the one machine within 18 mos.

[goshen]

Thanks for the responses. Had power company run a monitor on one of the machines for about a month. They claim all was fine but not long after we began having quick power outages again.Just had starter on other machine and dc power supply replaced by local
Trane office. Running ok now.Also installed latest version of software for CH530.Version 13 and have limited free restarts to one thinking possibly heat builds in starter causing issues. There is a new fan kit that is supposed to help cool the starter but is pricey and customer is hesitant to spend the money if it is not a fix for the problem. I feel like it is power related but don't think power co will admit to such. Would love to see wye delta starters installed but not holding my breath on that one either. Just seems that 3 starters in 6 yrs on 2 machines is excessive.Especially with 2 starters on the one machine within 18 mos.

hi there sorry for the late response. we have had the same problem. if u check u will find that trane supplied in your case a wrong voltage start relay. instead of 24vdc, they put 24vac that caused the power suupply to short and drop the voltage which evidently dammaged the starter.we had 5 burnouts, and replaced all with solcon solid state starters, for a third of the price ,and a full accross the line start, not inside delta !!! we think these starters ,that were made by cutler, are very sensitive to power flucs, and arent cut for the job, the new starters we installed have been working for 3 years with no problem

[jemawalton]

hi there sorry for the late response. we have had the same problem. if u check u will find that trane supplied in your case a wrong voltage start relay. instead of 24vdc, they put 24vac that caused the power suupply to short and drop the voltage which evidently dammaged the starter.we had 5 burnouts, and replaced all with solcon solid state starters, for a third of the price ,and a full accross the line start, not inside delta !!! we think these starters ,that were made by cutler, are very sensitive to power flucs, and arent cut for the job, the new starters we installed have been working for 3 years with no problem

Huh?

[goshen]

Huh?

why the suprise???:eek2:

[jayguy]

...if u check u will find that trane supplied in your case a wrong voltage start relay. instead of 24vdc, they put 24vac that caused the power suupply to short and drop the voltage which evidently dammaged the starter....

do you have a service bulletin or some other documentation for this? i could not find any that states this.

[Randy S.]

I've heard that Trane is now using the Reliance drives that were developed with the help of Carrier.

Maybe they need to switch their soft starts to Benshaw.

[goshen]

I've heard that Trane is now using the Reliance drives that were developed with the help of Carrier.

Maybe they need to switch their soft starts to Benshaw.

makes sense those old starters werent reliable
and putting them inside the delta to save money was a bad idea !!!:bump:

[WhoIsThat?]

Just seems that 3 starters in 6 yrs on 2 machines is excessive.Especially with 2 starters on the one machine within 18 mos.
3 starters in 6 yrs is 2 yrs each on avg. with a peak failure rate of 9 months.

What lifetime, low limit, average, and high limit, is reasonably expected from these things?

[goshen]

3 starters in 6 yrs is 2 yrs each on avg. with a peak failure rate of 9 months.

What lifetime, low limit, average, and high limit, is reasonably expected from these things?

Hi a good starter should last the machine life time excpecially those with internal bypass contactors we use solcon made starters and they simply last and last even at crazy duty cycles!!!:angel:

[Screwit]

Have over 100 of the Cutler-Hammer IT SSS on both Centravac and Helical Rotary chillers in our base with some coming up to 10 yrs in service without issue. The inside the delta application works fine and the IT starters do have internal bypass contactors. Our experience of starters that have failed is they are more often than not installed in areas of higher humidity.

[goshen]

Have over 100 of the Cutler-Hammer IT SSS on both Centravac and Helical Rotary chillers in our base with some coming up to 10 yrs in service without issue. The inside the delta application works fine and the IT starters do have internal bypass contactors. Our experience of starters that have failed is they are more often than not installed in areas of higher humidity.

Hi i can see a cooralaition with high humidity ,but we had units in desert climate that kicked the bucket! cutler hummer make good starters! i simply think someone in trane made mistakes sizing the drives and placing them .

[StayinCool]

I Had problems with the Cutler-Hammer IT starter on an RTHD. There are two service bulletins that address it. Troubleshooting and adjustments are limited, most of the dipswitches are disabled. I replaced it with a Benshaw Redi-Starter. That is the factory replacement for an RTHD. Its likley the replacement for a Cen-Tra-Vac also. Double check before preceeding. The Benshaw starter is far less expensive.

[goshen]

I Had problems with the Cutler-Hammer IT starter on an RTHD. There are two service bulletins that address it. Troubleshooting and adjustments are limited, most of the dipswitches are disabled. I replaced it with a Benshaw Redi-Starter. That is the factory replacement for an RTHD. Its likley the replacement for a Cen-Tra-Vac also. Double check before preceeding. The Benshaw starter is far less expensive.

Hi i would be happy if u could send me these service bulletines
gill@gosheneng.co.il

[bamatech]

Thanks for the responses guys.
All Starters were replaced with Cutler Hammer just like the originals.
Have not heard of the option of any other brand starter for these at the time of last replacement.
This is Alabama and they draw a good amount of outside air in the mechanical room so it is humid in the summer months. not sure how much effect this is having on them.
Hopefully the last ones will have a long happy life but I cringe every time the lights flicker at this place.



ROLL TIDE.........

[Nuclrchiller]

Hey bamatech! If you are who I think you are, then I'm the guy who has been working with you on this issue. Did you cut the piece of din rail that we used to mount the new power supply? Well, there's a new power supply available (part # PWR155) that is just a larger version of the one you have. I have used it on 4 chillers since yours and have had no callbacks so far. Of course, my fingers are still crossed. Like yours (part # PWR146 ?), it has an adjustable output, which I ALWAYS set at 26vdc. In one case, I set it at 28vdc to solve a chattering bypass contactor. As of now, I no longer get that sinking feeling when I get the call to go on a SSS call. By the way, this applies to SSS on centrifugals. I don't know if it will apply to SSS's on Series R equipment, I have not seen an R with SSS.

[Nuclrchiller]

Hey goshen! I'm just wondering if your experience with Trane solid state starters is with screw machines, or centrifugals, or both? Also, do y'all use 50hz or 60hz there? Some things you mentioned I'm not familiar with, though I haven't seen a screw with an SSS. Seen lots of screws, just none with SSS. Centrifugals here now (or soon will) come with a newer C-H SSS (still inside the delta), I haven't seen it yet. I believe most, if not all problems I've seen are due to an undersized 24vdc power supply, resulting in voltage dips causing the bypass contactor to drop out.

[bamatech]

Hey NUCLR. If this is Billy then yes you are right. Good to see ya. Have not had any more problems since your last visit so still keeping fingers crossed.
The power supply seems to be doing what it is supposed to.
Not seen you in a while hope all is well and you had a good Christmas.

[goshen]

Hey goshen! I'm just wondering if your experience with Trane solid state starters is with screw machines, or centrifugals, or both? Also, do y'all use 50hz or 60hz there? Some things you mentioned I'm not familiar with, though I haven't seen a screw with an SSS. Seen lots of screws, just none with SSS. Centrifugals here now (or soon will) come with a newer C-H SSS (still inside the delta), I haven't seen it yet. I believe most, if not all problems I've seen are due to an undersized 24vdc power supply, resulting in voltage dips causing the bypass contactor to drop out.

Hi all the problems we had were with centrifugal units ,and yes as i said before i think all these prblems are due to the 24vdc power supply either shorting out or voltge dipping ,we use 50 hz here and all the roomes with units in them are well ventilated we have screw trane machines with sss made by cutler and they to act up evry now and then
we replace them with solcon made sss that are cheap and reliable and provide extra protection for the machine you could look at the pictures in my album
we also found a problem with the trane original wiring they provided the wrong starting relay instead of 24vdc they installed a 24vac that took its time to warm up and eventully short out the power supply
after replacing the sss we had no call backs so far
thanks for your feedback
:angel:

[scott_RWS48]

Just use the Benshaw (spelling?) SSS. You can perform a direct replacement at 1/2 cost.

[mgibbs]

Just use the Benshaw (spelling?) SSS. You can perform a direct replacement at 1/2 cost.

I had to replace one cutler hammer SSS w/ a Benshaw on a RTHD. Worked great easy install and wiring. And like you said half the price...

[scott_RWS48]

Yup, the C.H. pricing on their SSS is simply too expensive and the Benshaw works fine.

[goshen]

Yup, the C.H. pricing on their SSS is simply too expensive and the Benshaw works fine.

Hi i dont know the price of the benshaw ss but i use the ss made by solcon for a ecvge 030 approx 364 amps runs for 2500$ this ss includes bypass contactores on all 3 phases
http://solcon.com/Index.asp?CategoryID=145