Aspen Coil

[jdaley]

I'm a home energy auditor, and I have noticed quite a few HVAC companies use Aspen coils. What is the story behind these? How can Aspen make a coil that is better than the coil from the condensor manufacturer, or is it simply a cheaper alternative? Also the higher SEER combos seem to have '+TDR' in the model number. What does this mean?

[I_bend_metal]

We only use them when space is an issue.....they make coils that are higher seer, yet shorter in height.....we always throw our own equipment's txv on them as well....they are a good coil....not sure they are that much cheaper or that much better, but definitely a very good coil when size is an issue......

[sda]

Good question! I believe aspen simple makes coils to the manufactures specifications, not necessarily better. I have seen a lot of them matched up to carrier and Lennox condensers in track houses.

[Mr Bill]

I'm a home energy auditor, and I have noticed quite a few HVAC companies use Aspen coils. What is the story behind these? How can Aspen make a coil that is better than the coil from the condensor manufacturer, or is it simply a cheaper alternative? Also the higher SEER combos seem to have '+TDR' in the model number. What does this mean?

I would put an Aspen coil up against "ANY" coil mfg. also they are not cheap! I can buy a RUUD box coil cheaper than the Aspen box coil. I have heard the TDR means that the coil gets it full efficiency with an installed Time Delay Relay on furnace or air handler, unless someone else has a better idea of what TDR means. :D

[classical]

TDR is referring to a time delay relay, most furnaces and air handlers now have a built in blower delay. The reason is so you build a colum of liquid refrigerant to the coil before the blower starts. This is not necessary if you have an ECM motor and/or non-equalizing TEV. Think back to when Carrier and others used liquid line solenoids.

Aspen is a good coil I use them on Goodman installs because i do not like the Goodman coils. For years Aspen made coils in dimensions that were direct replacement for OEM coils.

[dash]

Legitament mfrs.,have not built the three row coils that off brand mfrs.
builit until the tax credit came about,be careful of the higher static PD of coils that rate higher,many brands are now building these too.

[jdaley]

Thanks for the answers.


always throw our own equipment's txv on them as well

What is a txv?

[jerryd_2008]

My York distributor went to an Aspen coil when no York coil could make the AHRI tax credit certification in the 4-ton DFHP with VS modulating furnace. Had great numbers but when I got the certificate from Aspen the HSPF was rerated down from 10.10 to 8.95. Not a problem since I have the modulating furnace and dual fuel. However, just checked in the middle of the install and AHRI no longer has a rating for this combo. Scary. I believe I read that AHRI has been overwhelmed with rating all kinds of combos and since they can't randomly test they are taking down some certs.

Get that Aspen, and I imagine any other 3rd party coil, tax credit certificate in hand before you authorize installation. And of course the SEER/EER/HSPF (for HP combo) are written right on your proposal, right?

By the way, my coil is a 5-ton on a 4-ton DFHP. It is huge compared to the previous 10 SEER coil. Just barely got it in the vertical space even with a 33" high furnace versus 40"+ for the previous furnace.

[RoBoTeq]

No wrong answers that I can see, although I'm not sure what is meant by "Legitament" (legitimate?) manufacturer means. I would like to reiterate and clarify a few things though;

Aspen coils as well as all aftermarket coils (coils that are not manufactured by the manufacturers' of the outdoor units) have a lieniency in there ratings that give them an unfair advantage over equipment manufacturer's ratings. Equipment manufacturer's must test their coils in actual physical conditions with their outdoor units and are allowed a 5% margin of error. After market coil companies only need to do a computer simulation testing and are allowed, at this time, a 10% margin of error. That margin of error is usually what gets the aftermarket coils over the top in their ratings so they qualify for certain tax incentives and rebate credits. Can you believe this is all money driven?:rolleyes:

Anyway, as mentioned, Aspen coils are not always less expensive. They have two major advantages; being shorter for tight applications and having higher efficiency ratings due to the way the rating system works. I have an Aspen coil connected to a Goodman heat pump on top of my oil furnace being metered with a piston and have never had a problem with it. Due to the thicker fin pack with more rows of tubing, my system has a wonderful dehumidificaiton factor.

A TDR is indeed a TDR, however, it again is for the benefit of elevating efficiency ratings by delaying the indoor air blower from turning "off", thus utilizing the last minute of heat extraction from the still evaporating refrigerant in the indoor coil. As mentioned, most, if not all new furnaces and air handlers have a TDR built in to the blower control board. Older furnaces can have TDR's wired in-line to the blower relay. Many will argue that this time delay hurts dehumidification by blowing evaporated condensate left on the coil back into the airstream. It is a valid point, but the TDR adds about a .4 SEER rating to the system which in many cases is just enough to put the system over what is needed for tax incentives or rebates.

A txv is a metering device that adjusts the refrigerant metering to the actual conditions affecting the system, in contrast to a fixed metering device which is set to an average efficiency rating at only one conditions data. If a fixed metering device is designed to be a certain efficiency with the outdoor ambient being 95 degrees (the standard rating temperature) and the indoor airflow being 75 degrees, then as the conditions go up or down from those set points, the system is either more or less efficient. Since the txv maintains the systems efficiency accuracy, they add to the overall efficiency rating in test results. Yes, there are applications where a tested piston metered system will actually be more efficient then a txv. Such an application would be in areas with a constant heat load.

Some of the efficiency boosting items and there affect on systems are;


Txv metering increases efficiency rating with mostly advantages to the system's operation. Downside; txv's will fail as they are mechanical devices, whereas a fixed metering device cannot fail unless the system refrigerant becomes contaminated, in which case both fixed and txv metered systems would be adversely affected.
TDR blower delay on the off cycle increases efficiency rating by about .4 SEER but can, especially in humid areas, adversely affect humidity control, thus affecting comfort control.
Removal of compressor crankcase heater increases the overall efficiency rating of the system by about .4-.6 SEER, but can be a problem with the refrigerant oil becoming heavier during initial start ups after longer periods of shut down and on systems that operate in lower ambient temperatures. Personally, I prefer adding a crankcase heater to all heat pumps where there is not one installed. Manufacturer's use contactors that are shunted on one leg of the line voltage in order to keep the crankcase somewhat heated with the electrical current that continuously surrounds the live leg of electrical in the compressor. Since even manufacturer's who do this require crankcase heaters on long lineset applications, I suppose we can be certain that even the manufacturer's realize that this trickle charge of electrical heat energy is not very effective compared to a crankcase heater.
Hope this helps.

[jdaley]

Thanks for the great info. Interesting about the difference in ratings between aftermarket and 'OE' coil manufacturers. It does not seem right to me, that an Aspen coil can be used to up the SEER rating when it might be the same (or lower) than the OE coil in actual performance. Why is the rating system like this? Because it would be too difficult to actually field test all of the consdensor/coil combos with all manfacturers?

Regarding the TDR, the ~0.4 SEER increase, would that be with an air handler that has a built in time delay an ECM motor, or a PSC unit with no delay? The difference in SEER, I assume that would be strictly due to the slightly shorter run time of the blower motor for each A/C cycle? I would think with a heat pump the time delay would be crucial to avoid cold blows.

Regarding the crankcase heater, does every A/C unit have this? For a heat pump I would think this is even more necessary due to the lower outdoor temperature. Do some units have a 'smart' crankcase heater where it would only operate when the outdoor temp is below a certain level? That would make a heck of a lot of sense to me. I guess it would be advisable to turn the A/C breaker off when the cooling season is done to save this draw (What would be the approximate draw of the crankcase heater?)

Thanks for all the answers.

Jeff

[dash]

www.ahri.com

They pulled thousands of rating for third party coils and others ,on 7/15/2009.

Check before you buy,if you want the federal tax credit.

[classical]

Robin when did they go to the RDR being on the off cycle instead of the delay on cycle originally it was for delay on.

[RoBoTeq]

www.ahri.com (http://www.ahri.com)

They pulled thousands of rating for third party coils and others ,on 7/15/2009.

Check before you buy,if you want the federal tax credit.
I wasn't sure if this went through or not. ACCA was really trying to get AHRI to extend doing this to give contractors time to revamp bids with the unfair aftermarket ratings on them. Have you found verification that the lowered aftermarket ratings have gone into affect?

Hopefully anyone who had a system installed using an aftermarket coil has already printed out a copy of the ratings while they were qualifying for tax credits or rebates. Since we still don't know how the IRS is going to handle this tax credit, I would want to be sure I had proof that what I had installed qualified at the time it was installed.

[RoBoTeq]

Robin when did they go to the RDR being on the off cycle instead of the delay on cycle originally it was for delay on.
There are two types of TDR's. One is for the reason you mentioned, so that the coil can either have time to cool down for better dehumidification and warm up for heat pump applications and then the one for post purge which is where the SEER rating increase comes in.

About 15 years ago you could buy thermostats with TDR's for post purge that touted the .4 SEER efficiency increase for systems not having a TDR.

[Cold Feet]

Yes, there are applications where a tested piston metered system will actually be more efficient then a txv. Such an application would be in areas with a constant heat load.

Going of on a bit of a tangent here, but why are pistons still popular in heat pump outdoor units given that pistons have efficiency issues in wide temperature ranges? In heat mode, a heat pump evaporator will see much wider temperature variations than an AC evaporator will see in normal use.

[RoBoTeq]

Going of on a bit of a tangent here, but why are pistons still popular in heat pump outdoor units given that pistons have efficiency issues in wide temperature ranges? In heat mode, a heat pump evaporator will see much wider temperature variations than an AC evaporator will see in normal use.

I'm not certain of the thermal physics behind this one, but suppose that the trade off of efficiency to the reliability of a piston is enough to drive this.

Also, since the evaporator in the case of a heat pump in the heating mode is absorbing as much heat as it can from lower ambient temperatures, maybe there just isn't that much of a difference if the outdoor coil can be oversized to make up the difference. Again, I really am not up on this one.

[jerryd_2008]

www.ahri.com

They pulled thousands of rating for third party coils and others ,on 7/15/2009.

Check before you buy,if you want the federal tax credit.

Amen, dash! Happened to me but I got the tax certificate in hand before they started the install. First they "rerated" he coil/HP/furnace combo then they pulled it.

[RoBoTeq]

I just heard this morning from one of my contractors who bought a system from me but went to one of my competitors for an AHRI rated Aspen coil because it got the qualifying rating where no coil from the manufacturer of the outdoor unit would qualify.

This contractor has the AHRI number that qualified, but did not print it off. Now, that number does not come up as being available and there is no proof that this system he just installed qualifies for the tax credit.

Boy am I glad my company decided to fight me about bringing in Aspen coils;)

[docholiday]

Ratings are one thing. Actually testing them for not only efficiency but actual operation and reliability and warranty issues is a whole 'nuther thing. Now I dont think Aspen or any other just makes junk, they simply should be forced to test at least regularly. They also need to be tested for charge balance issues when used with a HP. Some HP mfg's back out of warranty when not matched with their coil.

[RoBoTeq]

Ratings are one thing. Actually testing them for not only efficiency but actual operation and reliability and warranty issues is a whole 'nuther thing. Now I dont think Aspen or any other just makes junk, they simply should be forced to test at least regularly. They also need to be tested for charge balance issues when used with a HP. Some HP mfg's back out of warranty when not matched with their coil.
All good info and advice. I was surprised, and not necessarily pleasantly, when coming from repping Rheem/Ruud to repping Goodman/Amana that the Goodman Manufacturing company will uphold the warranty on any of their outdoor units as long as the indoor coil is AHRI rated, no matter if it is an aftermarket coil or not. Rheem Manufacturing would not warranty a system with a mix-matched coil even if it was ARI rated.

I feel I lucked out with my Aspen coil working so well with my Goodman heat pump because it operates really well during heating and cooling seasons with no charge adjustments, and both coils are piston metered.

[jerryd_2008]

Ratings are one thing. Actually testing them for not only efficiency but actual operation and reliability and warranty issues is a whole 'nuther thing. Now I dont think Aspen or any other just makes junk, they simply should be forced to test at least regularly. They also need to be tested for charge balance issues when used with a HP. Some HP mfg's back out of warranty when not matched with their coil.

Got a copy of a letter from the distributor saying that York will stand behind 3rd party because they have no coils that qualify.

Here's what Aspen says on their web site:

• Immersion-tested at 500 psi, then nitrogen-pressurized and sealed.
• Ten-year limited warranty.

[docholiday]

Fact is, most compressors are killed by poor refrigerant flow, beit flooding or starving and overheating and the evaporator is generally the reason for such flooding. In a HP, the indoor coil is the condenser, if it cant be charged properly, so neither will the OD coil.

[crystalb26]

I'm a home energy auditor, and I have noticed quite a few HVAC companies use Aspen coils. What is the story behind these? How can Aspen make a coil that is better than the coil from the condensor manufacturer, or is it simply a cheaper alternative? Also the higher SEER combos seem to have '+TDR' in the model number. What does this mean?

TDR is- time delay relay -you do need to have that installed in order to achieve the 13 eer/16seer rating-Also it must be on your paper work to qualify for the tax credit!

[crystalb26]

I am trying to find a certain aspen coil in order to qualify for the tax credit its a C(A,C,D,E)42C44- NON OF THE DISTRIBUTERS IN MY AREA ( MINNESOTA) THAT HAVE THIS CERTAIN COIL. ANYBODY HAVE ANY SUGGESTIONS ....

[ampulman]

There are two types of TDR's. One is for the reason you mentioned, so that the coil can either have time to cool down for better dehumidification and warm up for heat pump applications and then the one for post purge which is where the SEER rating increase comes in.

I have a standard Rheem coil (RCQD) sitting on top of a MOD furnace. When the a/c kicks on, there is a blower delay (on). Likewise, when the compressor kicks off, there is a blower delay (off).

For my info, when the coil designation is '+TDR', does that imply that the relay is an integral part of the coil, or do they just throw one in the carton for the contractor to install? In the former case, I guess there would be wires coming from the coil (case). There are none.


About 15 years ago you could buy thermostats with TDR's for post purge that touted the .4 SEER efficiency increase for systems not having a TDR.

Just for kicks, my MOD stat makes 2 clicks when the a/c kicks on (about 2 - 3 seconds apart.

Amp

[drewski11]

I have a standard Rheem coil (RCQD) sitting on top of a MOD furnace. When the a/c kicks on, there is a blower delay (on). Likewise, when the compressor kicks off, there is a blower delay (off).

For my info, when the coil designation is '+TDR', does that imply that the relay is an integral part of the coil, or do they just throw one in the carton for the contractor to install? In the former case, I guess there would be wires coming from the coil (case). There are none.



Just for kicks, my MOD stat makes 2 clicks when the a/c kicks on (about 2 - 3 seconds apart.

Amp

a relay would not need to have any wires to the coil. just has to control the fan and know when cooling calls arrive.

my non-mod t-stat makes 1 click for stage 1 and 2 clicks a couple seconds apart when calling for stage 2

[Joker]

I'm a home energy auditor, and I have noticed quite a few HVAC companies use Aspen coils. What is the story behind these? How can Aspen make a coil that is better than the coil from the condensor manufacturer, or is it simply a cheaper alternative? Also the higher SEER combos seem to have '+TDR' in the model number. What does this mean?

Have you heard the the term "garbage in garbage out"? Well then you have your answer about ARI ratings.

Set a Aspen or other no name coil against a Trane, Lennox or Carrier coil and you can tell something is not right.

What are the coils I replace all the time because massive freon leaks? Aspen, ADP and Summit.

[RoBoTeq]

Have you heard the the term "garbage in garbage out"? Well then you have your answer about ARI ratings.

Set a Aspen or other no name coil against a Trane, Lennox or Carrier coil and you can tell something is not right.

What are the coils I replace all the time because massive freon leaks? Aspen, ADP and Summit.
You gotta be kidding! Carrier has always used Superior brand coils and right now Carrier is number one in coil leak problems.

A few years ago, the York brands had so much problem with coils that distributors had to replace them with third party coils. When JCI bought York, they shut down the coil plant in Mexico and put coil manufacturing in the same complex as their other plants in Withchita. I have either an Aspen or Benchmark or what ever third party coil connected to my Goodman 13 SEER heat pump sitting on an old lowboy Williamson oil furnace that has been doing great. I wanted a metal pan and the coil I bought was an out of date 10 SEER that I got for $50.

There is nothing wrong with third party coils.

[Joker]

You gotta be kidding! Carrier has always used Superior brand coils and right now Carrier is number one in coil leak problems.

A few years ago, the York brands had so much problem with coils that distributors had to replace them with third party coils. When JCI bought York, they shut down the coil plant in Mexico and put coil manufacturing in the same complex as their other plants in Withchita. I have either an Aspen or Benchmark or what ever third party coil connected to my Goodman 13 SEER heat pump sitting on an old lowboy Williamson oil furnace that has been doing great. I wanted a metal pan and the coil I bought was an out of date 10 SEER that I got for $50.

There is nothing wrong with third party coils.

I use to be a Carrier dealer and that is one of the reason why im not. But I can't tell you how many 3rd party coils I have replace this summer already. They last about 3-5 years and just start leaking like crazy.

Trane has gone to an aluminum coil which I like and this high copper price doesn't effect them like others. It sure seems when copper prices rise copper coils get thinner.

Builders are sure going to keep us in business using those cheap coils! Kinda like copper thieves. Do you hate them or love them? LOL

But those 3rd party coils still don't rate what they claim and thats the bottom line.

[RoBoTeq]

I use to be a Carrier dealer and that is one of the reason why im not. But I can't tell you how many 3rd party coils I have replace this summer already. They last about 3-5 years and just start leaking like crazy.

Trane has gone to an aluminum coil which I like and this high copper price doesn't effect them like others. It sure seems when copper prices rise copper coils get thinner.

Builders are sure going to keep us in business using those cheap coils! Kinda like copper thieves. Do you hate them or love them? LOL

But those 3rd party coils still don't rate what they claim and thats the bottom line.
3rd party coils are not required to actually test their coils under real conditions. They do a computer simulation and prior to July 15, 2009, were allowed a 10% variance to equipment manufacturer's being allowed a 5% variance. Since 2009, 3rd party coils have only a 6% variance, which does still give them a bit of an advantage in the ratings.

Copper and aluminum coils are all thinner today in order to get better heat transfer. It has nothing at all to do with the price of copper. Most coil companies, whether equipment manufacturer's or third part companies, use exactly the same coil stock from exactly the same copper coil vendors.

Formicary corrosion and improper installs are still the main reasons for premature coil failures, no matter who manufactured them.

[Joker]

Copper and aluminum coils are all thinner today in order to get better heat transfer. It has nothing at all to do with the price of copper. Most coil companies, whether equipment manufacturer's or third part companies, use exactly the same coil stock from exactly the same copper coil vendors.

Thats funny because I know some coils are better than others. I know Bryant demanded thinner coils back in the early 90's and they paid dearly for it.

I have sat 3rd party coils next to name brand coils and the name brand coils were nearly twice as big. That 6% must have stretched some! LOL

[RoBoTeq]

Thats funny because I know some coils are better than others. I know Bryant demanded thinner coils back in the early 90's and they paid dearly for it.

I have sat 3rd party coils next to name brand coils and the name brand coils were nearly twice as big. That 6% must have stretched some! LOL
It doesn't matter what we think we know. The fact is that the thinner coil myth has been passed around about every brand there is and none of the stories are true.

Bryant was owned by Carrier in the early 90s.

As far as judging by the physical size of coils, you don't understand coil heat transfer. The percent rate of error has nothing to do with the physical size of the coils. The reason that 3rd party coils are so desirable is that they use 3 and four row fin packs allowing their coils to have less surface area while still having the same physical coil capacity. That means that they are physically smaller with better dehumidification properties whiile still having the same amount of tubing to handle larger capacity systems.

[SBKold]

TDR is referring to a time delay relay, most furnaces and air handlers now have a built in blower delay. The reason is so you build a colum of liquid refrigerant to the coil before the blower starts. This is not necessary if you have an ECM motor and/or non-equalizing TEV. Think back to when Carrier and others used liquid line solenoids.

Aspen is a good coil I use them on Goodman installs because i do not like the Goodman coils. For years Aspen made coils in dimensions that were direct replacement for OEM coils.

I came across a 1991 Carrier 5 ton 12 seer Heat Pump. Had a solonoid as you describe. Went direct from discharge of compressor to suction. Whats up with that? I dont get it.

[Joker]

I came across a 1991 Carrier 5 ton 12 seer Heat Pump. Had a solonoid as you describe. Went direct from discharge of compressor to suction. Whats up with that? I dont get it.

Pressure bypass. I can't remember if its high pressure only or for start up. I haven't seen one in a long time.