Barrack Husssein Obama: Frightened Wuss

[Tool-Slinger]

It is becoming obvious that Obama is simply frightened, scared like a little girl sighting a snake in the grass. He has had an easy run, winning the presidency from his elite standing upon the concrete and marble floor he came from in Illinois. Nice digs. And he had to challenge little miss 'arkansas' puetred-head, miss alaska bikini babe, and McCain to get there. He won, did okay on that score. Now he has a bit of a problem with this international stuff.... Aside from his failures at wooing the muslims and sucking up to latin american dictators, he has now resorted to sheer cowardice at dealing with the north korean dictator and war-monger KimJongIl.

This has become an abysmal failure. I'll spell it out:

State department spokesman says,


"North Korea should refrain from actions that aggravate tensions"

Okay, should, but they aren't you knucklehead.

"and focus on denuclearization talks"

What talks? There are no 'talks' you idiot. The voices in your head should not be confused with 'talks'. What a complete f'n moron.

"and the implementation of its commitments from the September 19, 2005 joint statement."

This is just laughable. You cannot just roll-back international developments to 2005, times have changed. Your people need to 'get with the program' and bring your sorry arses up to date on world current events. Your reliance on a 2005 'joint statement' doesn't mean sheat.

Obama is frightened, scared, and implementing a policy of USA cowardice. We will all suffer a future of additional hardship in the failure of this type of leadership.

One more thing: OBAMA SUCKS!!!!

Have a good 4th everyone.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1246443713772

[coolperfect]

What did Japan do, and they are next door.not USA problem,Better yet turn the matter over to the UN they will fix it LOL

[whec720]

Where's our big, bad Secretary of State? Has anyone seen the where abouts of the China Doll in Chief?

[Recessor]

My personal opinion, be it that I am from Sweden:
I like Obama, he seems trustworthy to me. And feet on the ground too.
Also I'd have to agree, let this be handled by UN and Japan, concerned parties
I can't quite see how this has to be a US concern?

[klove]

My personal opinion, be it that I am from Sweden:
I like Obama, he seems trustworthy to me. And feet on the ground too.
Also I'd have to agree, let this be handled by UN and Japan, concerned parties
I can't quite see how this has to be a US concern?

Next time I run into someone who has a problem with the Swedish government and we need an opinion on the matter, we'll call you...............

[coolperfect]

Problem with goverment,no problem just cry baby BS ,A shame someone on the other side of world has to tell us that

[DeltaT]

My personal opinion, be it that I am from Sweden:
I like Obama, he seems trustworthy to me. And feet on the ground too.
Also I'd have to agree, let this be handled by UN and Japan, concerned parties
I can't quite see how this has to be a US concern?

Thanks for your input. I personally enjoy others opinion no matter where they are from. I hope you continue to offer your opinions. That is what this site is all about.

Obama is eroding the basic foundations of the freedoms of what this country has stood for since our founding fathers set us in the direction of having the individual rights and freedoms set forth as the highest priority of this nation.

Some on here would dissagree. But, I think, most would agree. We, as a nation and for the first time in our history, are divided. About 52% of our population voted for him because of a marketing net work of modern technologies such as marketing on the internet to voters of the least experience and least understanding of the costs of these freedoms that we hold dear.

The balance of the American voters remainded true to backing of their canditates of choice which they saw as maintaining, upholding and, mainly, defending the freedoms of this country.

This is a new era in our country and a scary one for most of us that have had to work for and fight in all different manners to keep our borders free from outside negetative influences.

Now we fight a new battle, which is within our borders.

[coolperfect]

http://www.progressive.org/mag/wx110508.html

[bootlen]

What did Japan do, and they are next door.not USA problem,Better yet turn the matter over to the UN they will fix it LOL

Korea threatened Japan? You better look again.

[bootlen]

My personal opinion, be it that I am from Sweden:
I like Obama, he seems trustworthy to me. And feet on the ground too.
Also I'd have to agree, let this be handled by UN and Japan, concerned parties
I can't quite see how this has to be a US concern?

That's because Sweden is a namby-pamby girly-man country and BO is not your "leader". Come to think of it, he's NO ONE'S leader. Maybe he should immigrate to Sweden. I'll buy his ticket.

[coolperfect]

So I guess it is no problem,no problem for Japan or us.so why are we crying OB.Did you read the above link the election was given away by MCcain.He could not run an election much less a country and get us out of the jam we are in

[coolperfect]

Mccain "I dont know much about economy"lol.but I served in the war




'

[jpsmith1cm]

My personal opinion, be it that I am from Sweden:
I like Obama, he seems trustworthy to me. And feet on the ground too.
Also I'd have to agree, let this be handled by UN and Japan, concerned parties
I can't quite see how this has to be a US concern?

Sorry to hear that.

You have been fooled as have millions of others.

Of course, opinions are like backsides, we all have one.


The answer to stopping a maniac like Kim Jong Il is to lay it out in short simple terms.

"Stop it or we will stop you."

If he refuses, you MUST carry through. Otherwise you are a joke to him and he will continue to push you around.

It seems that Mr. Obama prefers things this way.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to negotiate with people like this. They understand one thing. FORCE.

[Tool-Slinger]

My personal opinion, be it that I am from Sweden:
I like Obama, he seems trustworthy to me. And feet on the ground too.
Also I'd have to agree, let this be handled by UN and Japan, concerned parties
I can't quite see how this has to be a US concern?
USA has an obligation to defend South Korea. We have about 28,000 troops there, a left-over from our war with NK in the 1950's. USA is dug into this problem very deeply, like it or not.

Japan is a problem in itself as they have a 'defense only' policy but that could change which would cause yet another problem since China does not want an armed Japan much less a 'nuked-up' Japan.

The UN is as useless as a teat on a boar hog. The UN does not, can not, and will not do anything useful at any time. The heads of the UN would make more influence if they were instead paraded around upon long sticks. They do nothing but provide cover for acts of barbarism and aggression and provide a false sense of security for dim-wits and neanderthal utopian free-earth geeks.

Obama has his feet planted firmly upon the ground, and his head planted firmly inside his anal cavity.



Answers you cannot find on 'yahoo answers'... does that answer your question? :D

[EugeneTheJeep]

Yeah, North Korea even celebrated our wuss president and his pussy cabinet for the 4th of July

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090704/ap_on_re_as/as_nkorea_missile

[Tool-Slinger]

Yeah, North Korea even celebrated our wuss president and his pussy cabinet for the 4th of July

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090704/ap_on_re_as/as_nkorea_missile
Yes, this is just a direct 'spit in the face' at the USA.

Those basturds are just evil.

[EugeneTheJeep]

Yes, this is just a direct 'spit in the face' at the USA.

Those basturds are just evil.

Who, the people in Washington, or the N Koreans, or both??

[EugeneTheJeep]

Did you catch the part about Washington's response?

"In Washington, the White House had no immediate comment. But two senior officials in President Barack Obama's administration, speaking in advance of the launches, said any reaction was likely to be muted to avoid giving attention to Pyongyang or antagonize it. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly."

Probably spoken by a male in a feminine voice, "If we ignore the big bully, he might just go away"

[Tool-Slinger]

Who, the people in Washington, or the N Koreans, or both??
What I meant was that the NKs were just evil. Pushing at us and threatening us.

I blame washington for response only, it is the NKs who are truly evil.

[whec720]

Professor Turguson.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfi4s8cjLFI

[Tool-Slinger]

Did you catch the part about Washington's response?

"In Washington, the White House had no immediate comment. But two senior officials in President Barack Obama's administration, speaking in advance of the launches, said any reaction was likely to be muted to avoid giving attention to Pyongyang or antagonize it. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly."

Probably spoken by a male in a feminine voice, "If we ignore the big bully, he might just go away"
I googled that:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/04/white-house-silent-north-korea-launches-missiles-independence-day/

Obama is afraid to do anything to make them mad, nice.... we might as well have Britanney Spears for president.

[Recessor]

"Stop it or we will stop you."

If he refuses, you MUST carry through. Otherwise you are a joke to him and he will continue to push you around.
...
It is IMPOSSIBLE to negotiate with people like this. They understand one thing. FORCE.

I wasn't aware that ultimatum had been placed... If so, you are right
However, if phrases "should" are in place, the thing is all different.
And unlike some may think, going to hard ultimatum backing them up with force is not a sign of power as much as it is a sign of lack in diplomatary skills.

It is HARD to negotiate with people like this, but not impossible.
But one thing is certain, without respect for their person and leadership it is impossible... Not even with force is it possible, they and their entire population would fight back.

If you can't do it with a stick, you may be able to do it with honey.

(I should mention that I am not socialist or "red" in any way, quite the opposite in fact).

[Recessor]

USA has an obligation to defend South Korea. We have about 28,000 troops there, a left-over from our war with NK in the 1950's. USA is dug into this problem very deeply, like it or not.

This, however is an important point to this debate!
As long as South Korea request the prescence of theese soldiers USA is firmly dug in with them. Making neighbouring contries their concern too.
This may very well nullify my first comment.

However, I still like Obama a hell of a lot better than a few of the latter presidents...

[jpsmith1cm]

I wasn't aware that ultimatum had been placed... If so, you are right
However, if phrases "should" are in place, the thing is all different.
And unlike some may think, going to hard ultimatum backing them up with force is not a sign of power as much as it is a sign of lack in diplomatary skills.

It is HARD to negotiate with people like this, but not impossible.
But one thing is certain, without respect for their person and leadership it is impossible... Not even with force is it possible, they and their entire population would fight back.

If you can't do it with a stick, you may be able to do it with honey.

(I should mention that I am not socialist or "red" in any way, quite the opposite in fact).

That was me stating how I believe that Kim Jong Il should be handled.

No ulitmatum has been, nor will it be issued with the weak president that we currently have.

[Recessor]

Thanks for your input. I personally enjoy others opinion no matter where they are from. I hope you continue to offer your opinions. That is what this site is all about.

Obama is eroding the basic foundations of the freedoms of what this country has stood for since our founding fathers set us in the direction of having the individual rights and freedoms set forth as the highest priority of this nation.

Some on here would dissagree. But, I think, most would agree. We, as a nation and for the first time in our history, are divided. About 52% of our population voted for him because of a marketing net work of modern technologies such as marketing on the internet to voters of the least experience and least understanding of the costs of these freedoms that we hold dear.

The balance of the American voters remainded true to backing of their canditates of choice which they saw as maintaining, upholding and, mainly, defending the freedoms of this country.

This is a new era in our country and a scary one for most of us that have had to work for and fight in all different manners to keep our borders free from outside negetative influences.

Now we fight a new battle, which is within our borders.

Thank you!
You state many well formulated points here.
However everything else, it is undoubtedly a mismanagment if about half the population thinks the president and his staff does a poor job. Either they really do a poor job,
or they do a good job but on the wrong things. In any case they should consider communicating with their voters better. Either to better inform, why they do certain things,
or realise what they should be working on.

This is the ultimate consequence of a democracy I think :)
Mayority rules, mayority voted for Obama. So, Obama is now your leader.
(And it's only for four years - if the population is really miscontent, there will be a new leader soon)

[jpsmith1cm]

The problem is not quite as simple as you are making it out to be.

Obama has already spent up into a debt that it will be very difficult to recover from.

So we get a new president in 3 1/2 years. So what. It will take many times that to recover from the idiocy of this one man.

[jpsmith1cm]

This is the ultimate consequence of a democracy I think :)
Mayority rules, mayority voted for Obama. So, Obama is now your leader.
(And it's only for four years - if the population is really miscontent, there will be a new leader soon)

Since when was the USA a democracy?

[Tool-Slinger]

This, however is an important point to this debate!
As long as South Korea request the prescence of theese soldiers USA is firmly dug in with them. Making neighbouring contries their concern too.
This may very well nullify my first comment.

However, I still like Obama a hell of a lot better than a few of the latter presidents...
USA troops are only in SK to defend them from NK. NK would like to annex SK, 'reunification' commie-style at the end of an AK-47. Having been there since 1953, these USA troops are a threat to no one[except on the occasional individual weekend bender], just a defensive garrison. Other nations are concerned about NK, but not really about the presence of USA troops in SK.

China for example: Likes NK poking sticks in our [USA] eye, fears NK failure and subsequent masses of refugees flooding their border. Realizes radioactive nuclear fall-out will probably land in China if a nuke war began with pay-loads delivered into NK. China is not worried about USA troops in SK, it has been a stable situation since 1953. And they eat bugs.

Japan: Everyone in the area hates Japan. Japan has recently shown an interest in moving towards a more assertive military capacity. Thanks to NK. China does not like this development.

Russia: Russia likes to stick their nose into it because they like to pretend they have stake in the matter. They are also known alcoholic gamblers.

Tiawan: These are clever little asian people who make things like bearings and toaster ovens. Chineese [who eats bugs] just hates them. They have no role in this issue, I just wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to insult them for some comic relief.

I am trying to say that the USA troops in SK are not a threat to anyone and seen as such by any nations in the area, only NK nutters. NK is the threat, nobody else here, just NK.

I understand you like Obama, as he is very popular in Europe. He is not handling this situation well. He has diplomatic cowardice. Diplomacy is not all about making friends and nice promises. Diplomatic solutions must have the gravity of truth and consequences. Obama has only a cowardly rejection of realistic situational awareness that is providing the aggressive enemy with courage to advance upon long standing ambitions to gain more power. More power may be defined as 'more territory' or 'more military power' or 'more diplomatic power', whatever fruit is available to be harvested.

Kim Jong Ill is energized, becoming certain of his superiority and God-like status. Obama, he is just afraid... he calls it "deep concern", everyone paying attention knows it is fear.

I do not think bravery is a lack of fear, but acting in spite of it. Cowardice is letting fear dictate decisions. Obama is being a coward. Total wuss. Guys like Akmadenijad and KimJong used to beat up and take lunch-money from guys like Obama in school.

[jpsmith1cm]

Guys like Akmadenijad and KimJong used to beat up and take lunch-money from guys like Obama in school.

There is a world of truth in that statement.

The best way I ever learned to handle a bully was to knock the $hit out of him. Do it quickly and without remorse.

You earn a TON of respect that way. If they know that they will get their noses broken by sticking it out, they will not do it.

[Tool-Slinger]

There is a world of truth in that statement.

The best way I ever learned to handle a bully was to knock the $hit out of him. Do it quickly and without remorse.

You earn a TON of respect that way. If they know that they will get their noses broken by sticking it out, they will not do it.
In diplomatic/comparable terms, Obama is getting a major wedjie now. The nutters like Ackmadenijad and KimJong screaming in glee about how they got the idiot USA leader in such a weak position. It pains me to witness his embarrassing and humiliating failure.

I never really liked Obama, but even if I ever had, at some point you have to look at the man and realize he is a wuss. Our enemies already have done so.

[glennac]

Thank you!
You state many well formulated points here.
However everything else, it is undoubtedly a mismanagment if about half the population thinks the president and his staff does a poor job. Either they really do a poor job,
or they do a good job but on the wrong things. In any case they should consider communicating with their voters better. Either to better inform, why they do certain things,
or realise what they should be working on.

This is the ultimate consequence of a democracy I think :)
Mayority rules, mayority voted for Obama. So, Obama is now your leader.
(And it's only for four years - if the population is really miscontent, there will be a new leader soon)

You don't understand how "Americans" feel about Obama. First the "Americans" who voted for Obama are not what most would consider mainstream Americans. You have close to 100% of minorities this includes not only racial but religious, political, and special interest groups and naive ignorant idealists who wanted "change" who voted for Obama.

These groups included environmental wackos, socialists, communists, feminists, gays, young idealists, brainwashed yellow dog Democrats (thanks to media brainwashing and upbringing buy stupid parents), Jews and Muslims, underachievers, welfare class, low IQ folks, immigrants from the 3rd world, Blacks, folks of Spanish ancestry (except those from Cuba), abortion rights fanatics, lawyers and teachers (they both get a good feeding by Democrats), illegals and finally fraudulent voting in Democratically controlled states and voting precincts. Most "Americans" voting for an American not a socialist commie for President. Thank you very much.

[Tool-Slinger]

You don't understand how "Americans" feel about Obama. First the "Americans" who voted for Obama are not what most would consider mainstream Americans. You have close to 100% of minorities this includes not only racial but religious, political, and special interest groups and naive ignorant idealist who wanted "change" who voted for Obama.

These groups included environmental wackos, socialists, communists, feminists, gays, young idealists, brainwashed yellow dog Democrats (thanks to media brainwashing and upbringing but stupid parents), Jews and Muslims, underachievers, welfare class, immigrants from the 3rd world, Blacks, folks of Spanish ancestry (except those from Cuba), abortion rights fanatics, lawyers and teachers (they both get a good feeding by Democrats), illegals and finally fraudulent voting in Democratically controlled states and voting precincts. Most "Americans" voting for an American not a socialist commie for President. Thank you very much.
LOL. I think our resident superman pretty well nailed it here.

Obama is an aberration, [and probably a muslim].

We don't want no freaking commie in charge, voters were duped into electing this punk. This is less of a democratic win than a republican failure.

In the words of some mexican dude, " it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees". And republicans should not be insulted by taking inspiration from south of the border, because you sure as he11 are not getting inspiration from here lately. We need some incumbents packing, or third party results.

[Tool-Slinger]

So I guess it is no problem,no problem for Japan or us.so why are we crying OB.Did you read the above link the election was given away by MCcain.He could not run an election much less a country and get us out of the jam we are in
McCain sucked too. It is up to Obama now.

Some sorry choices we have to choose from IMO.

[whec720]

LOL. I think our resident superman pretty well nailed it here.

Obama is an aberration, [and probably a muslim].

We don't want no freaking commie in charge, voters were duped into electing this punk. This is less of a democratic win than a republican failure.

In the words of some mexican dude, " it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees". And republicans should not be insulted by taking inspiration from south of the border, because you sure as he11 are not getting inspiration from here lately. We need some incumbents packing, or third party results.

I like that. Time for the Republicans, and especially, the vile Democrats to GO! Come November, vote all incumbents out. The problem is the third party candidates; not too many of them to choose from. We must break the two party system before it breaks us. Why is there such hesitation from the voters? We've come to a point, sadly, where we have nothing to lose.

[Tool-Slinger]

The problem is not quite as simple as you are making it out to be.

Obama has already spent up into a debt that it will be very difficult to recover from.

So we get a new president in 3 1/2 years. So what. It will take many times that to recover from the idiocy of this one man.
So?

I do not see the connection between Obama crashing our economy with the rising power of NK. Obama is trashing our economy, we see that, but we still maintain the best military, right?

Aside from cutting the F-22 thing, is there any evidence of Obama cutting our military? I think not. His foolish agenda of cutting our nukes with agreement with russia is just a silly side-show for the amusement of naked green-peace PITA people. No change there.

Obama seems hell-bent on crashing our economy, but NK issue seems stand-alone as an issue. Am I missing something?

[whec720]

Maybe BHO can get Jimmy broker a deal with NK. Hey....it worked well the first time...lol:D

[whec720]

......what difference does it make. This essay makes some good points and is blunt in its presentation. It is much more believable than anything the Obama loving NBC has to offer.
The fact is, the US government caused much of this problem, now it has to fix it. Like it or not, Obama must deal with this. Oh well, he wanted the job, now he has it. GET TO WORK!

http://download.premiereradio.net/guest/rushlimb/pdf/nailing.pdf

[Tool-Slinger]

......what difference does it make. This essay makes some good points and is blunt in its presentation. It is much more believable than anything the Obama loving NBC has to offer.
The fact is, the US government caused much of this problem, now it has to fix it. Like it or not, Obama must deal with this. Oh well, he wanted the job, now he has it. GET TO WORK!

http://download.premiereradio.net/guest/rushlimb/pdf/nailing.pdf
The situation, whatever it is, is now on Obama's shoulder. He needs to stop the crying about how he 'inherited' it. That is just further babble, and further 'cowardice'.

Fabulous link whec.

[Recessor]

How is the failure of an obsolete economy system Obamas fault?

There can not really be any doubt that some drastic changes has to be made here, can there? But the system failed well before Obama came to presidency.
Sadly enough it affected great parts of the world with it. Also my country... (But luckily not me!:p)

[Recessor]

You don't understand how "Americans" feel about Obama. First the "Americans" who voted for Obama are not what most would consider mainstream Americans. You have close to 100% of minorities this includes not only racial but religious, political, and special interest groups and naive ignorant idealists who wanted "change" who voted for Obama.

These groups included environmental wackos, socialists, communists, feminists, gays, young idealists, brainwashed yellow dog Democrats (thanks to media brainwashing and upbringing buy stupid parents), Jews and Muslims, underachievers, welfare class, low IQ folks, immigrants from the 3rd world, Blacks, folks of Spanish ancestry (except those from Cuba), abortion rights fanatics, lawyers and teachers (they both get a good feeding by Democrats), illegals and finally fraudulent voting in Democratically controlled states and voting precincts. Most "Americans" voting for an American not a socialist commie for President. Thank you very much.


So the Obama-win situation is mostly the work of some minorities, is that how I should understand this? Does this make the minorities answer for more than 50% of the votes?
Does that imply that "normal" americans are in fact, a minority? ;)

[Tool-Slinger]

How is the failure of an obsolete economy system Obamas fault?

There can not really be any doubt that some drastic changes has to be made here, can there? But the system failed well before Obama came to presidency.
Sadly enough it affected great parts of the world with it. Also my country... (But luckily not me!:p)
What obsolete economy? Is the US economy obsolete? I think not. Obama supported Obama supported 'fixes' to the economy that helped injure it.

Stop with the nonsense that he has no responsibility, he is president.

[printer2]

Stop with the nonsense that he has no responsibility, he is president.
I thought it was Wall Street that got the world into the mess it is right now.

[Tool-Slinger]

I thought it was Wall Street that got the world into the mess it is right now.
Blame for all this is being thrown around without due justification. Wallstreet, speculators, housing lending rules, debt, repubtards and dumbocrats. I think there is enough blame to go around, and no clear answers or heads would be rolling if there were.

The continued decline, lack of recovery rests squarely on the shoulders of obama. AKA Mr. debt.

[Tool-Slinger]

In another surprising development [are we really surprised] Obama has just pussed-out negotiations with iran to Israel. That is nice, Iran likes them so much and those negotiations will go along just swimmingly. Biden just handed over US intervention in the matter.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D998BL881&show_article=1&catnum=0#idc-container

Obama is starting WW3.

Obama is starting WW3.

Obama is starting WW3.

I love to joke and kid around. I am not joking.

[printer2]

The continued decline, lack of recovery rests squarely on the shoulders of obama. AKA Mr. debt.

Actually it is not only Obama that is trying to spend his way out of the mess we are in. Not sure if you have noticed but every other industrialized country is doing the same, all with the common goal to prevent a Great Depression. I do not agree with it but much smarter minds then myself say the alternative is worse.


Biden just handed over US intervention in the matter.

Obama is starting WW3.




Biden was asked in the interview that if the Israelis decide they need to try to take out Iran's nuclear program, would the U.S. stand in the way militarily?

"We cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do," the vice president replied.

So the question was would the US send in the military against Israel if the Israelis decide to go it on their own on Iran.

Would you prefer if the VP said yes?

[Tool-Slinger]

Actually it is not only Obama that is trying to spend his way out of the mess we are in. Not sure if you have noticed but every other industrialized country is doing the same, all with the common goal to prevent a Great Depression. I do not agree with it but much smarter minds then myself say the alternative is worse.





So the question was would the US send in the military against Israel if the Israelis decide to go it on their own on Iran.

Would you prefer if the VP said yes?
What I would prefer is some USA backing of Israel. Not leaving them to their weak attack plan.

[Recessor]

What I would prefer is some USA backing of Israel. Not leaving them to their weak attack plan.

I don't really think Israel needs much help, their military forces are amongst the better trained and equipped in the world...

[printer2]

Iran is more afraid of Israel than the US. When Israel hits they hit hard.

[coolperfect]

What I would prefer is some USA backing of Israel. Not leaving them to their weak attack plan. Cant do that OB is already spending too much money. LOL

[hearthman]

The blame for this debacle rest on the shoulders of the whores who run DC. They ALL have given into the concept of sucking up to special interests to buy their votes. They are no different than pimps or drug pushers and should be treated accordingly. The best thing that could happen to this country would be to nuke DC while congress is being addressed by Oby-wan. They ALL have sold out. The liberals are now full blown socialists being led by a communist. The republicans caved in, crossed the aisle and now vote like democrats of old. Collectively, they are fascists---creating ever tighter central power. While the socialists got the news media and intertainment industry to pervert social mores and values, the Republicans have lost their moral compass and try to appease those who cannot be appeased.

Oby-wan and his minions WANT chaos and anarchy so he can declare martial law and complete his coupe d'etat. He WANTs us to get pissed off and threaten physical violence. He WANTs race riots and violence. Believe it. He cannot take our guns until he has overturned the 1st Amendment, which he's close to now. Once he has the masses sitting blindly, you feed them the propaganda you want. Meanwhile, overthrowing the 2nd amendment is then done quietly. How can an informed armed public rise up against an oppressive government if they don't know what is going on? During the Revolution, the colonies united only once they found out everyone else was getting screwed and everyone else wanted to rise up in protest. If the British had been able to silence the presses, we'd still be British subjects.

The Right will nominate someone who is a centrist hoping to win some swing votes. In doing so they prostitute themselves and their values just to get elected. However, it won't be enough to overcome the socialist press who will declare open warfare on the candidates and destroy them. You'll have everyone laughing at David Letterman's jokes bashing any Right Wing candidate or talk show host. They won't know why they laugh but they'll buy into it. Because the LEFT has perfected mind control of the masses.

Meanwhile, the Left continues their assault on Christianity. As more and more are driven to Muslim or atheistic beliefs, the credibility of the Bible will come under the most intense ridicule and mockery you could imagine. It will take strong wills to maintain your faith.

There are evil forces running this country and they are just getting warmed up.
Hearthman

[shaygetz]

Iran is more afraid of Israel than the US. When Israel hits they hit hard.

Always did admire them for that...in the end, they've always lived like the world is, was or will eventually be their enemy. I'm sure the recent overtures from the White House were no surprise.

[printer2]

If the British had been able to silence the presses, we'd still be British subjects.


That means you would be... ...Canadians.




Eeww . . . :eek:

[Tool-Slinger]

I don't really think Israel needs much help, their military forces are amongst the better trained and equipped in the world...
They do not have bunker busters and long range capabilities, such as some would think needed to do the job proper. Ground invasion is perhaps needed to do it right.

Not saying israel does not have the ability to hit Iran, just saying that they lack the ability to really eliminate the nuke program in a proper manner.

[Tool-Slinger]

The blame for this debacle rest on the shoulders of the whores who run DC. They ALL have given into the concept of sucking up to special interests to buy their votes. They are no different than pimps or drug pushers and should be treated accordingly. The best thing that could happen to this country would be to nuke DC while congress is being addressed by Oby-wan. They ALL have sold out. The liberals are now full blown socialists being led by a communist. The republicans caved in, crossed the aisle and now vote like democrats of old. Collectively, they are fascists---creating ever tighter central power. While the socialists got the news media and intertainment industry to pervert social mores and values, the Republicans have lost their moral compass and try to appease those who cannot be appeased.

Oby-wan and his minions WANT chaos and anarchy so he can declare martial law and complete his coupe d'etat. He WANTs us to get pissed off and threaten physical violence. He WANTs race riots and violence. Believe it. He cannot take our guns until he has overturned the 1st Amendment, which he's close to now. Once he has the masses sitting blindly, you feed them the propaganda you want. Meanwhile, overthrowing the 2nd amendment is then done quietly. How can an informed armed public rise up against an oppressive government if they don't know what is going on? During the Revolution, the colonies united only once they found out everyone else was getting screwed and everyone else wanted to rise up in protest. If the British had been able to silence the presses, we'd still be British subjects.

The Right will nominate someone who is a centrist hoping to win some swing votes. In doing so they prostitute themselves and their values just to get elected. However, it won't be enough to overcome the socialist press who will declare open warfare on the candidates and destroy them. You'll have everyone laughing at David Letterman's jokes bashing any Right Wing candidate or talk show host. They won't know why they laugh but they'll buy into it. Because the LEFT has perfected mind control of the masses.

Meanwhile, the Left continues their assault on Christianity. As more and more are driven to Muslim or atheistic beliefs, the credibility of the Bible will come under the most intense ridicule and mockery you could imagine. It will take strong wills to maintain your faith.

There are evil forces running this country and they are just getting warmed up.
Hearthman
Hearthman, now that was one really fine post.

[Tool-Slinger]

Cant do that OB is already spending too much money. LOL
LOL, cool, yes the 'spending to the hilt' is not helping anything. National emergency? Sorry, cannot afford one. :D

[jrm1504]

For those of you complaining about debt, I think you hit it spot on.

Right now the US National debt is running at $11.5 Trillion. But guess what? It is really more along the lines of $20 trillion when you add in all the money that is owed to the entitlement programs and government promised pensions.

So lets just say that all of a sudden the US Federal governemnt decided to balance the budget and begin to amortize that loan over the next 50 years (that is the rest of my life). Well, every man, woman and child would have to fork over an additional $450 per month at current interest rates.

But here is the kicker...about 45% of adults don't pay taxes and kids don't pay taxes either. So if you are a tax payer, you are going to have to shoulder maybe $800+ per month. And under all the current CBO forecasts the current Pelosi-Obama spending plans will double the debt to nearly $20 trillion (plus the entitlements) in the next ten years. Now all of a sudden every person's share is $600-700 per month?

The current Democratic policy of raiding the rich to buy votes from the poor is going to come to an end. Because, really, that is what is happening, whether it be a concious policy or not. With the ever shrinking proportion of the electorate actually, paying taxes, why not ask for more and more if someone else is paying? There simply aren't enough rich folks to raid $30,000,000,000,000. So to pay it off, more people will have to chip in, which of course begs the question: who can afford $600+ more a month in increased taxes?

Simply put, no one. So we are might be hosed already. But what happens when the debts are called in? The US can either massively inflate or default on the debt.

"Everybody else is borrowing, why not us?" Apparently, we are all jumping off a bridge together. There is simply no way all this money can ever be repaid.

http://thenastyboys.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/train-wreck.jpg

[Tool-Slinger]

For those of you complaining about debt, I think you hit it spot on.

Right now the US National debt is running at $11.5 Trillion. But guess what? It is really more along the lines of $20 trillion when you add in all the money that is owed to the entitlement programs and government promised pensions.

So lets just say that all of a sudden the US Federal governemnt decided to balance the budget and begin to amortize that loan over the next 50 years (that is the rest of my life). Well, every man, woman and child would have to fork over an additional $450 per month at current interest rates.

But here is the kicker...about 45% of adults don't pay taxes and kids don't pay taxes either. So if you are a tax payer, you are going to have to shoulder maybe $800+ per month. And under all the current CBO forecasts the current Pelosi-Obama spending plans will double the debt to nearly $20 trillion (plus the entitlements) in the next ten years. Now all of a sudden every person's share is $600-700 per month?

The current Democratic policy of raiding the rich to buy votes from the poor is going to come to an end. Because, really, that is what is happening, whether it be a concious policy or not. With the ever shrinking proportion of the electorate actually, paying taxes, why not ask for more and more if someone else is paying? There simply aren't enough rich folks to raid $30,000,000,000,000. So to pay it off, more people will have to chip in, which of course begs the question: who can afford $600+ more a month in increased taxes?

Simply put, no one. So we are might be hosed already. But what happens when the debts are called in? The US can either massively inflate or default on the debt.

"Everybody else is borrowing, why not us?" Apparently, we are all jumping off a bridge together. There is simply no way all this money can ever be repaid.

http://thenastyboys.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/train-wreck.jpg
Great post there, jrm1504, but I do expect obama and the democrats have some sort of plan,.. I am anticipating much higher taxes and gross inflation, a combo 'one-two punch' to deal with the problem. Tax, and print money.

I doubt they would default on the debt, thinking that would crash the [already deteriorating] value of the money they will be printing. I do not think they care if we are reduced to poverty, peasants vote socialist, and they are socialists.

[printer2]

You could always tax businesses rather than giving them handouts. And all the farm subsidies. Can't cut that because the first party that does that will lose the agra-vote. Too many people sucking blood out of your system.

[Tool-Slinger]

You could always tax businesses rather than giving them handouts. And all the farm subsidies. Can't cut that because the first party that does that will lose the agra-vote. Too many people sucking blood out of your system.
You could always tax businesses rather than giving them handouts.

Depends upon what you mean by 'business'. I hear our corporate taxes are second only to Japan. So, you cannot tax much anymore without killing the host. I am also a 'business' and the government has a hand in every tattered pocket I have already, no hand-outs to me either. Who gets a 'hand-out'? Answer that please?

And all the farm subsidies. Can't cut that because the first party that does that will lose the agra-vote.

The long entrenched farm subsidies are diverse, complicated, and often screwy beyond human conception. I have myself plowed under perfectly good wheat under orders from the boss-man [grampa]. The ethanol debacle, creating false market value with subsidies, like I said it is very diverse. It should all be ended, I agree, needed reform but I am thinking that is a smaller portion of the problem in numeric values.

Too many people sucking blood out of your system.

I strongly disagree here. I say too much system sucking blood out of our people.

[printer2]

CNN is good at misleading you. Especially in the Bush era taxes for big business went down, it always does when Republicans get into power. Do a search on the national debt over time and you will see generally your deficit goes down when Democrats get into power and goes up with Republicans. Bill Clinton dropped the % of debt to GDP from 50% (Inherited from Bush sr.) to about 35%. Bush light came in and it went up to 45%.

When I refer to your system I mean your economic system. And it is always the poor or middle class (if you still have one) that gets to pick up the check at the end of the meal.

Get rid of half your military and all the companies that go twice over budget on contracts. Subsidies to farms always pass because how can you not support your poor farmers. Strange that most of the money goes to big business that have driven out mom and pop farmers.

Ethanol? Don't get me started. The 'system' is rife with government friends that get the rules changed so they can make money. It does not matter if the Democrats or Republicans are in power.

The economic mess not withstanding, I do see some things that Obama may do good for your country. Hopefully they will work. Renewable energy for one. Every barrel of oil you import is money you send out of your country (as hard as that is for me to say that because we are your biggest supplier of energy.)

Health insurance, a big waste of money chasing money rather than delivering care to your people. Too bad the insurance companies have as much power as they have, they will not let the system be changed other than some tinkering. The US spends more than any other country per capita and others have better care.

I could go on but I am starting to get depressed.

[Tool-Slinger]

CNN is good at misleading you. Especially in the Bush era taxes for big business went down, it always does when Republicans get into power. Do a search on the national debt over time and you will see generally your deficit goes down when Democrats get into power and goes up with Republicans. Bill Clinton dropped the % of debt to GDP from 50% (Inherited from Bush sr.) to about 35%. Bush light came in and it went up to 45%.

When I refer to your system I mean your economic system. And it is always the poor or middle class (if you still have one) that gets to pick up the check at the end of the meal.

Get rid of half your military and all the companies that go twice over budget on contracts. Subsidies to farms always pass because how can you not support your poor farmers. Strange that most of the money goes to big business that have driven out mom and pop farmers.

Ethanol? Don't get me started. The 'system' is rife with government friends that get the rules changed so they can make money. It does not matter if the Democrats or Republicans are in power.

The economic mess not withstanding, I do see some things that Obama may do good for your country. Hopefully they will work. Renewable energy for one. Every barrel of oil you import is money you send out of your country (as hard as that is for me to say that because we are your biggest supplier of energy.)

Health insurance, a big waste of money chasing money rather than delivering care to your people. Too bad the insurance companies have as much power as they have, they will not let the system be changed other than some tinkering. The US spends more than any other country per capita and others have better care.

I could go on but I am starting to get depressed.
Thanks for the intelligent reply, printer2.

I think we have some mis-communication more than disagreement here.

CNN is good at misleading you. Especially in the Bush era taxes for big business went down, it always does when Republicans get into power. Do a search on the national debt over time and you will see generally your deficit goes down when Democrats get into power and goes up with Republicans. Bill Clinton dropped the % of debt to GDP from 50% (Inherited from Bush sr.) to about 35%. Bush light came in and it went up to 45%.

These numbers are going to be skewed. First, Ronald Reagan collapsed the Soviets with a huge military build-up, very expensive, and the economy was in the tank with his democratic predecessor Jimmy Carter to begin with. Reagan revenues went up, but spending did also.

Bush 1 raised taxes, cow-towed to democrats in the house. 4 years, and there was a war involved.

Clinton 'balanced the budget' but only with republican congressional pressure, Clinton initially tried to take over a huge chunk of the economy with nationalized healthcare. {how the repuplicans took congress}. War diverted in Iraq, war diverted in Afganistan, as Bill Clinton did not address the major military conflicts in our era. {side note: given the title of my typically hysterical thread I should make it clear I do not blame Clinton for this aversion, as there was neither political or public support for much action at the time} . Clinton also enjoyed the reduction in a military expense with the USSR gone. Combine this with the 'tech-bubble' in our economy, and he looked like a champ.

Bush 2 finished war quagmired in Iraq for previous 12 years, albeit the wrong way and at too much expense IMHO. Also fought war with Taliban/Al-Queerdia. During all of this, survived the economic fall-out of the 'tech-boom' and the economic crash of 9-11. Not bad.

Circumstances. Democrats do not reduce deficits, or debt, as clearly demonstrated by our current leadership.

When I refer to your system I mean your economic system. And it is always the poor or middle class (if you still have one) that gets to pick up the check at the end of the meal.

I think our economic system is dominated by an over-bearing government snatching pennies and productivity out of our hands at every possible turn. Rich people do not bother me. Corporations do not bother me. The government constantly takes my money. The rich and corporations do not do that to me, as I can shop elsewhere with them. Unless my money is confiscated by the government and given to the rich, that is exactly what Obama and the democrats are doing .

Get rid of half your military and all the companies that go twice over budget on contracts. Subsidies to farms always pass because how can you not support your poor farmers. Strange that most of the money goes to big business that have driven out mom and pop farmers.

I could go along with ending farm subsidies, and cleaning-up goverment contract work. But suggesting we cut our military in half is just insane.

Ethanol? Don't get me started. The 'system' is rife with government friends that get the rules changed so they can make money. It does not matter if the Democrats or Republicans are in power.

Screw ethanol, we agree.

The economic mess not withstanding, I do see some things that Obama may do good for your country. Hopefully they will work. Renewable energy for one. Every barrel of oil you import is money you send out of your country (as hard as that is for me to say that because we are your biggest supplier of energy.)

Obama is not inventing or building renewable energy. He is only focused on taxing the energy we have. That means draconian increases in cost, passed onto the consumer. Add to that reduced manufacturing associated with capitol cost and retail price increase for products and services associated with the added expense of doing business. Consumers suffer under this concept.

Health insurance, a big waste of money chasing money rather than delivering care to your people. Too bad the insurance companies have as much power as they have, they will not let the system be changed other than some tinkering. The US spends more than any other country per capita and others have better care.

The healthcare debate rages on. In light of the projected deficits and debt and anticipated expenses, I submit this should not be an immediate issue for 'change' at this very moment. We have an economic disaster going on, let us fix that first.

[mrs reb77]

Yeah, tax 'business' and 'big business' and then, when it all goes down the tubes, bail out 'big business' and let 'business' fail.
Whatever--U.S. is not Canada and where is it that you're getting all this information that makes you so 'knowledgeable' about the U.S. and what should be done? The Internet? CNN? TV?

BAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[sline-dawg]

Gee..... I hope we can be Canada one day.....:rolleyes:

[Tool-Slinger]

Yeah, tax 'business' and 'big business' and then, when it all goes down the tubes, bail out 'big business' and let 'business' fail.
Whatever--U.S. is not Canada and where is it that you're getting all this information that makes you so 'knowledgeable' about the U.S. and what should be done? The Internet? CNN? TV?

BAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
You know MrsReb77, it blows my mind how these leftists screaming ,"DOWN WITH CORPORATIONS" or some equivocal drivel will support Obama. He went into office as the protector of the average person against "BIG BUSINESS" and "sharing the wealth".

All Obama has done since being in office is borrow big-bucks to lend to BIG BUSINESS and he has offered no means of a method pay-back on the original loan much less the interest. Investing our money in failing businesses? Then dumping tons of money into local projects, we need bridges and roads but these are not anything more than temporary jobs. This type of stuff does nothing to spur long-term economic growth. Obama voters have gained nothing from all of this, aside from a few scattered anecdotal stories, nothing. Unemployment at a record high, and the worst news is yet to come..... increased taxes and inflation are fairly predictable.

On top of this he wants to tax energy, and tax healthcare if you have it or mandate the coverage if you cannot afford it but he determines you can. Nice.

Seriously, you get to a point where 4$ cash is worth 10$ documented income. I am just not going to pay it. I will make my minimal tax amount documented, then make my extra as undocumented.

They are going to end up having me growing onions in my yard and having laying hens. I refuse to pay it, I will not. Illegals do not, Why should I?

[Tool-Slinger]

Gee..... I hope we can be Canada one day.....:rolleyes:
The scary part is: I think we will be canada one day. :D

[bootlen]

Get rid of half your military...

You lack understanding of our Constitution. The military is the only Constitutionally correct agency in our government.

[Tool-Slinger]

You lack understanding of our Constitution. The military is the only Constitutionally correct agency in our government.
Well, that is not realistic. Like I said, insane. The nature of the world would change, like a voluntary castration.

The USA military is pretty much the only thing that is holding this world in a sane position of non-aggression and free trade right now. A cut in USA military, I promise, will result in wars and cuts in trade.

[glennac]

Gee..... I hope we can be Canada one day.....:rolleyes:

Hey this is still a free country. You can cross over anytime and apply to become a Canadian and then you can post back with a superior attitude like printer2 and tell everyone how it should be done. Go for it.:rolleyes:

[dec]

ya get rid of our military and let Canada and Sweden protect us :rolleyes:


Hell why not give them a bill for what we pay protecting them :D


Or have Canada secure its boarders from who comes here tru their country :mad:


UN.......... ya right who is the biggest payer of their cost :mad:

UN is a joke ..... cut them off take back our buiding in New YORK and throw them out ......... no more free lunch. :mad:



Other countries can criticize us ......... look where they would be without us :D


Put up a fence and stop protecting countries of the world ............ if we could without it destroying our country over time I would be all for it just to watch other countries realize how stupid they are to condem the very country that is protecting their freedom.

Lot of stupid people in this world ....... :mad:



ahhh ...... besides Obama and this congress :rolleyes:

[sline-dawg]

The scary part is: I think we will be canada one day. :D



We both know we've been annexed by Mexico.....:eek:

[DeltaT]

Pastor's wife's letter

How's this for apocalyptic literature This was written by a pastor's wife in biblical prose as a commentary of current events. It is Brilliant.
__________________________________________________ __

And it came to pass in the Age of Insanity that the people of the land called America, having lost their morals, their initiative, and their will to defend their liberties, chose as their Supreme Leader that person known as "The One".

He emerged from the vapors with a message that had no meaning; but He hypnotized the people telling them, "I am sent to save you. My lack of experience, my questionable ethics, my monstrous ego, and my association with evil doers are of no consequence. For I shall save you with Hope and Change.

Go, therefore, and proclaim throughout the land that he who preceded me is evil, that he has defiled the nation, and that all he has built must be destroyed." And the people rejoiced, for even though they knew not what "The One" would do, he had promised that it was good; and they believed.

And "The One" said "We live in the greatest country in the world. Help me change everything about it!"

And the people said, "Hallelujah! Change is good!"

Then He said, "We are going to tax the rich fat-cats."
And the people said, "Sock it to them!"

"And redistribute their wealth."
And the people said, "Show us the money!"

And then He said, "Redistribution of wealth is good for everybody."
And Joe the plumber asked, "Are you kidding me? You're going to steal my money and give it to the deadbeats?"
And "The One" ridiculed and taunted him, and Joe's personal records were hacked and publicized.

One lone reporter asked, "Isn't that Marxist policy?"
And she was banished from the kingdom!

Then a citizen asked, "With no foreign relations experience and having zero military experience or knowledge, how will you deal with radical terrorists?"
And "The One" said, "Simple. I shall sit with them and talk with them and show them how nice we really are; and they will forget that they ever wanted to kill us all!"

And the people said, "Hallelujah!! We are safe at last,
and we can beat our weapons into free cars for the people!"

Then "The One" said, "I shall give 95% of you lower taxes."
And one, lone voice said, "But 40% of us don't pay ANY taxes."

So "The One" said, "Then I shall give you some of the taxes the fat-cats pay!"
And the people said, "Hallelujah!! Show us the money!"

Then "The One" said, "I shall tax your Capital Gains when you sell your homes!"
And the people yawned and the slumping housing market collapsed.

And He said, "I shall mandate employer- funded health care for EVERY worker and raise the minimum wage. And I shall give every person unlimited health care and medicine and transportation to the clinics."
And the people said, "Give me some of that!"

Then he said, "I shall penalize employers who ship jobs overseas."
And the people said, "Where's my rebate check?"

Then "The One" said, "I shall bankrupt the coal industry and electricity rates will skyrocket!"
And the people said, "Coal is dirty, coal is evil, no more coal! But we don't care for that part about higher electric rates."

So "The One" said, "Not to worry. If your rebate isn't enough to cover your expenses, we shall bail you out. Just sign up with ACORN and your troubles are over!"

Then he said, "Illegal immigrants feel scorned and slighted. Let's grant them amnesty, Social Security, free education, free lunches, free medical care, bi-lingual signs and guaranteed housing..."

And the people said, "Hallelujah!!" And they made him King!

And so it came to pass that employers, facing spiraling costs and ever-higher taxes, raised their prices and laid off workers. Others simply gave up and went out of business and the economy sank like unto a rock dropped from a cliff. The banking industry was destroyed. Manufacturing slowed to a crawl. And more of the people were without a means of support.

Then "The One" said, "I am the "The One" - The Messiah - and I'm here to save you! We shall just print more money so everyone will have enough!"

But our foreign trading partners said unto Him, "Wait a minute. Your dollar is not worth a pile of camel dung! You will have to pay more..."

And the people said, "Wait a minute. That is unfair!!"

And the world said, "Neither are these other idiotic programs you have embraced. Lo, you have become a Socialist state and a second-rate power. Now you shall play by our rules!"

And the people cried out, "Alas, alas!! What have we done?"

But yea verily, it was too late. The people set upon "The One" and spat upon him and stoned him, and his name was dung.
And the once mighty nation was no more; and the once proud people were without sustenance or shelter or hope.

And the Change "The One" had given them was as like unto a poison that had destroyed them and like a whirlwind that consumed all that they had built.

And the people beat their chests in despair and cried out in anguish, "Give us back our nation and our pride and our hope!!"

But it was too late, and their homeland was no more.
__________________________________________________ _________

You may think this is a fairy tale, but it's not.

Sounds pretty much the way things are going!!

[Recessor]

...All Obama has done since being in office is borrow big-bucks to lend to BIG BUSINESS and he has offered no means of a method pay-back on the original loan much less the interest....

But if I'm not totally out of the loop here, the government takes equity in said supported "big business"? Which I think beats our way, where our government only lends the money to said companies - in a vain hope of maybe, some day getting some of it back... And, what would happen if theese companies were let go of? Massive layoffs? -Just asking?


...Seriously, you get to a point where 4$ cash is worth 10$ documented income....

Still I think this sounds quite nice :) Be it that I am from Sweden ;)
If I make 100$ before tax it costs my company an additional 70$ in taxes and fees. I get to keep 50-70$ of this, depending on my annual income.
Lets say I get 70$ (which makes me middle-class or less) then if I buy gas I get about 35$ worth, rest is taxes of various kinds.
So, Government gets 135$, I get 35...
(this example is extreme, as gas and alcohol are very highly taxed, about 75%. Most other stuff is only 25%, food is 12% I think. So it's not so bad)

[Tool-Slinger]

But if I'm not totally out of the loop here, the government takes equity in said supported "big business"? Which I think beats our way, where our government only lends the money to said companies - in a vain hope of maybe, some day getting some of it back... And, what would happen if theese companies were let go of? Massive layoffs? -Just asking?


Still I think this sounds quite nice :) Be it that I am from Sweden ;)
If I make 100$ before tax it costs my company an additional 70$ in taxes and fees. I get to keep 50-70$ of this, depending on my annual income.
Lets say I get 70$ (which makes me middle-class or less) then if I buy gas I get about 35$ worth, rest is taxes of various kinds.
So, Government gets 135$, I get 35...
(this example is extreme, as gas and alcohol are very highly taxed, about 75%. Most other stuff is only 25%, food is 12% I think. So it's not so bad)
I do understand Recessor, our taxes are still better than Europe. That however, is no grounds at all to justify the current rate or raising them. If I lived in Sweden I would probably own a bicycle and work in a retail shop or something like that for minimum wage and collect public assistance. USA is reputed to be 'the land of opportunity', for a reason and I do not want that changed. I like my land, trucks, and business, humble as it is.

As for the spending issue on 'big business' :

Take General Motors for example, if not 'bailed-out' or 'bought out' by the Gov, then they would have probably filed bankruptcy and re-structured under court direction to make them a viable operation. That happens here frequently with business failures. Sometimes business failures get bought-out by other businesses and get restructured to make them profitable. In any case, layoffs are probably part of the 'restructure'. With the government involvement, there are still layoffs, still restructuring that has to be done. My problem with this is at least 3 fold. 1] It is not necessary. 2] It is against the free market ideology here to have the feds buying up industries. 3] The dimwits that run the government are probably not the best owners of a manufacturing business as they are proven time and again to be inept and wasteful of money. 4] Propping up failure is not productive. Subsidizing failure, feeding failure, begets more failure. Businesses must adapt or fail, so do employees. As an outrageous example, think of how silly it would be if we were subsidizing the horse-shoeing industry since 1909 because they had run into financial problems. 5] There have already been accusations of politically-motivated corruption involved with this deal, a few. 6] I am just going to stop at 5, seems enough. That may not be the best explanation, If I were not ignorant about Sweden I might could give a better answer tailored from your perspective but that is my best attempt.

[Recessor]

I do understand Recessor, our taxes are still better than Europe.
...
think of how silly it would be if we were subsidizing the horse-shoeing industry since 1909 because they had run into financial problems....


It is just of me to directly compare my country to yours. we have had a socialist government for some 70 years... I will not occupy your time with all the reasons as to why that sucks...
A saying goes something like (translated) if you put a frog in a bowl of hot water, it will jump out. If you put the same frog in cold water and slowly heat it up, it will slowly boil to death.
What I'm trying to say is, getting as high taxation rates as my country, takes generations. So implying the same rates on your country would surely devestate, well... everything.

And it is a clear examply, head on the nail with the horse shoe example - This is exactly the "big-oil" car industry today. Businesses that have lived out their time (more or less,
but a crisis would sort them out I think) should either alter their product line, update in any other matter or perish.

Having said all that. I wonder how Obama would be considered if not for the crisis - which he atleast did not start.

(And I own a house, 1 car, 2 motorcycles and 1 boat ;))

[Tool-Slinger]

It is just of me to directly compare my country to yours. we have had a socialist government for some 70 years... I will not occupy your time with all the reasons as to why that sucks...
A saying goes something like (translated) if you put a frog in a bowl of hot water, it will jump out. If you put the same frog in cold water and slowly heat it up, it will slowly boil to death.
What I'm trying to say is, getting as high taxation rates as my country, takes generations. So implying the same rates on your country would surely devestate, well... everything.

And it is a clear examply, head on the nail with the horse shoe example - This is exactly the "big-oil" car industry today. Businesses that have lived out their time (more or less,
but a crisis would sort them out I think) should either alter their product line, update in any other matter or perish.

Having said all that. I wonder how Obama would be considered if not for the crisis - which he atleast did not start.

(And I own a house, 1 car, 2 motorcycles and 1 boat ;))
(And I own a house, 1 car, 2 motorcycles and 1 boat )

First let me say, I intended no insult to you. I was speaking for myself only and If we had Europe-style taxation here I would still be on a bicycle and public assistance. That is just a result of my less than admirable track-record on the ladder of success. :D

I do not know how long it would take for the USA to match your taxes of course, but things are being planned at a really fast rate here. It is more about spending, but taxes and devaluation of our dollar can be fairly predicted as a result.

Having said all that. I wonder how Obama would be considered if not for the crisis - which he atleast did not start.

Interesting question, although I do insist he is compounding the problem/crisis. I think the economic crisis has dampened his domestic agenda, he has some opposition from his own party ranks in this climate that he might not have had otherwise. If the economy turns around, and he has no major blunder associated with national security, I think he can still have any huge 'change' he is asking for. Entitlements and taxes. Late 2010 we have an election[congress, not president], so there is a window of time for him to get things done and either reinforce his standing or lose it. He has party majorities in government and popular support of the electorate, so I would estimate he will be received very well without the economic crisis. Just my opinion.

[whec720]

ya get rid of our military and let Canada and Sweden protect us



That probably would not happen. Isn't it better to buy it? Finance the US military force and direct it as you see fit. After all, the US Congress and the Commander in Chief will be your servants.
Say, for instance, China. China finances the debt ridden US Government, which is heavy on military spending. In return, the US Government is at China's beck and call.
Say China has a problem with it's trade policy with Canada. It doesn't like the cost Canada wants for its rich natural resources. Simply call up your b!tches at the White House and re-direct some of that massive nuclear arsenal at Canada and let Ottawa know. They get the point and reconsider their price. What can they do? Take on both large military forces.
Checkmate. ;)

[whec720]

Pastor's wife's letter

How's this for apocalyptic literature This was written by a pastor's wife in biblical prose as a commentary of current events. It is Brilliant.
__________________________________________________ __

And it came to pass in the Age of Insanity that the people of the land called America, having lost their morals, their initiative, and their will to defend their liberties, chose as their Supreme Leader that person known as "The One".

He emerged from the vapors with a message that had no meaning; but He hypnotized the people telling them, "I am sent to save you. My lack of experience, my questionable ethics, my monstrous ego, and my association with evil doers are of no consequence. For I shall save you with Hope and Change.

Go, therefore, and proclaim throughout the land that he who preceded me is evil, that he has defiled the nation, and that all he has built must be destroyed." And the people rejoiced, for even though they knew not what "The One" would do, he had promised that it was good; and they believed.

And "The One" said "We live in the greatest country in the world. Help me change everything about it!"

And the people said, "Hallelujah! Change is good!"

Then He said, "We are going to tax the rich fat-cats."
And the people said, "Sock it to them!"

"And redistribute their wealth."
And the people said, "Show us the money!"

And then He said, "Redistribution of wealth is good for everybody."
And Joe the plumber asked, "Are you kidding me? You're going to steal my money and give it to the deadbeats?"
And "The One" ridiculed and taunted him, and Joe's personal records were hacked and publicized.

One lone reporter asked, "Isn't that Marxist policy?"
And she was banished from the kingdom!

Then a citizen asked, "With no foreign relations experience and having zero military experience or knowledge, how will you deal with radical terrorists?"
And "The One" said, "Simple. I shall sit with them and talk with them and show them how nice we really are; and they will forget that they ever wanted to kill us all!"

And the people said, "Hallelujah!! We are safe at last,
and we can beat our weapons into free cars for the people!"

Then "The One" said, "I shall give 95% of you lower taxes."
And one, lone voice said, "But 40% of us don't pay ANY taxes."

So "The One" said, "Then I shall give you some of the taxes the fat-cats pay!"
And the people said, "Hallelujah!! Show us the money!"

Then "The One" said, "I shall tax your Capital Gains when you sell your homes!"
And the people yawned and the slumping housing market collapsed.

And He said, "I shall mandate employer- funded health care for EVERY worker and raise the minimum wage. And I shall give every person unlimited health care and medicine and transportation to the clinics."
And the people said, "Give me some of that!"

Then he said, "I shall penalize employers who ship jobs overseas."
And the people said, "Where's my rebate check?"

Then "The One" said, "I shall bankrupt the coal industry and electricity rates will skyrocket!"
And the people said, "Coal is dirty, coal is evil, no more coal! But we don't care for that part about higher electric rates."

So "The One" said, "Not to worry. If your rebate isn't enough to cover your expenses, we shall bail you out. Just sign up with ACORN and your troubles are over!"

Then he said, "Illegal immigrants feel scorned and slighted. Let's grant them amnesty, Social Security, free education, free lunches, free medical care, bi-lingual signs and guaranteed housing..."

And the people said, "Hallelujah!!" And they made him King!

And so it came to pass that employers, facing spiraling costs and ever-higher taxes, raised their prices and laid off workers. Others simply gave up and went out of business and the economy sank like unto a rock dropped from a cliff. The banking industry was destroyed. Manufacturing slowed to a crawl. And more of the people were without a means of support.

Then "The One" said, "I am the "The One" - The Messiah - and I'm here to save you! We shall just print more money so everyone will have enough!"

But our foreign trading partners said unto Him, "Wait a minute. Your dollar is not worth a pile of camel dung! You will have to pay more..."

And the people said, "Wait a minute. That is unfair!!"

And the world said, "Neither are these other idiotic programs you have embraced. Lo, you have become a Socialist state and a second-rate power. Now you shall play by our rules!"

And the people cried out, "Alas, alas!! What have we done?"

But yea verily, it was too late. The people set upon "The One" and spat upon him and stoned him, and his name was dung.
And the once mighty nation was no more; and the once proud people were without sustenance or shelter or hope.

And the Change "The One" had given them was as like unto a poison that had destroyed them and like a whirlwind that consumed all that they had built.

And the people beat their chests in despair and cried out in anguish, "Give us back our nation and our pride and our hope!!"

But it was too late, and their homeland was no more.
__________________________________________________ _________

You may think this is a fairy tale, but it's not.

Sounds pretty much the way things are going!!

Yep...that about nails it.:cool:

[printer2]

Tool-Slinger, you made some good points. I agree that there is much more beneath the surface of events. That is more or less my take on things. I see a number of posts here that take a simplistic view and see simple cause and effect. Sorry things are usually much more complicated.

I have seen enough politicians blast the other party over the way they run things and then do the same thing when they are in power. Either party say they have better ideas but quite often they have no choice but to react the same way.


Whatever--U.S. is not Canada and where is it that you're getting all this information that makes you so 'knowledgeable' about the U.S. and what should be done? The Internet? CNN? TV?

When the US sneezes Canada catches a cold. Half our TV stations are your stations. Do you think we do not hear about your politics, read your papers, visit your country? I have not been on the East coast but I have been from North Dakota down to Texas, across to California, up the coast to Washington.

No other people know more about the US than Canadians. Well I might make an exception for Mexicans, considering they all moved there.

Now back to taxing you guys. All I have been saying was that you guys owe a lot of people a lot of money. Somehow it is going to have to be paid back. It is not like you can just plead bankruptcy. Now where is the money going to come from? Either the people or businesses. If you know of another source of revenue let me know. I am not saying what you should do, just that at some point in time your debt will come back to haunt you.



The scary part is: I think we will be canada one day.

Nah, you would find it too boring.



Simply call up your b!tches at the White House and re-direct some of that massive nuclear arsenal at Canada and let Ottawa know. They get the point and reconsider their price. What can they do? Take on both large military forces.
Checkmate.


Hell no, why mess with radioactive fallout. Just tell us we will be cut off from our endless supply of movies and TV shows. I doubt our society could take it.

[whec720]

Hell no, why mess with radioactive fallout. Just tell us we will be cut off from our endless supply of movies and TV shows. I doubt our society could take it.Hell no, why mess with radioactive fallout. Just tell us we will be cut off from our endless supply of movies and TV shows. I doubt our society could take it.

Worst case scenario, what does China care about nuclear fallout to the US or Canada. They are half way across the world. It would suck about losing all that vast amount amount of fresh water and farm land though. Anyway, your weeny government would cave into China's demands before that happens, much like mine already has.
What's the beef with American entertainment? Hell, we have to export something...;):D:D

[Recessor]

(And I own a house, 1 car, 2 motorcycles and 1 boat )

First let me say, I intended no insult to you. I was speaking for myself only and If we had Europe-style taxation here I would still be on a bicycle and public assistance. That is just a result of my less than admirable track-record on the ladder of success. :D

I do not know how long it would take for the USA to match your taxes of course, but things are being planned at a really fast rate here. It is more about spending, but taxes and devaluation of our dollar can be fairly predicted as a result.

Having said all that. I wonder how Obama would be considered if not for the crisis - which he atleast did not start.

Interesting question, although I do insist he is compounding the problem/crisis. I think the economic crisis has dampened his domestic agenda, he has some opposition from his own party ranks in this climate that he might not have had otherwise. If the economy turns around, and he has no major blunder associated with national security, I think he can still have any huge 'change' he is asking for. Entitlements and taxes. Late 2010 we have an election[congress, not president], so there is a window of time for him to get things done and either reinforce his standing or lose it. He has party majorities in government and popular support of the electorate, so I would estimate he will be received very well without the economic crisis. Just my opinion.

(First of all: I made a mistake in my post, it is supposed to say: "It is NOT just of me to compare my country to yours".
Also I might add that I am not offended, at all. Quite the opposite in fact, any debate that is not a flamewar is very rewarding, regardless if I loose it or not! :))

I've been pondering this debate some time now. The situation in the US, and for that matter more or less all over the civilized world, is horrible in so many ways. And having people say Obama is compounding the crisis is not a very good grade for said president! But, what should he have done? Has he chosen the lesser of two evils, or are there in fact better, yet unexploited options?

[whec720]

Sure, there are plenty of directions BHO could of gone. A good one would have been abandoning Keynesian economic policies.

[printer2]

Keynesian economic policies are ok if you save money in good times and stimulate the economy in bad times. If the economy gos for a downturn and you have no cash in the cookie jar you are going to have the future generation pay to bail you out.

The hardest part is to put something away in the cookie jar. You get one side saying people are being taxed more than they should be and the other side saying we can put that money to good use today.

I think spending a lot of money worked after the Great Depression for one reason. It industrialized the US. It actually increased the capabilities of the country to produce more items and to ship them around. People saw a new day approaching and they could afford things they never could have before.

Today I think things are a little different. The money being pumped into the economy will give it a temporary jolt but not one that will last. The reason why is because we have been running this economy on debt.

The whole idea of the stimulus is to make people feel good again so they keep borrowing and spending money as if nothing happened. The problem is that people are not that stupid. They realize they should get their finances in order and rather than spending money they are saving it or reducing their debt because they do not know what tomorrow brings.

Who knows if the money was not spent there might be massive unemployment and it might have taken a generation to dig ourselves out of it.

[Recessor]

Sure, there are plenty of directions BHO could of gone. A good one would have been abandoning Keynesian economic policies.
But that should have been done long before the downturn in the economics, in order to have any effect? Hence it cannot be blamed on current leadership, but previous, no?


Keynesian economic policies are ok if you save money in good times and stimulate the economy in bad times. If the economy gos for a downturn and you have no cash in the cookie jar you are going to have the future generation pay to bail you out.

The hardest part is to put something away in the cookie jar. You get one side saying people are being taxed more than they should be and the other side saying we can put that money to good use today.

I think spending a lot of money worked after the Great Depression for one reason. It industrialized the US. It actually increased the capabilities of the country to produce more items and to ship them around. People saw a new day approaching and they could afford things they never could have before.

Today I think things are a little different. The money being pumped into the economy will give it a temporary jolt but not one that will last. The reason why is because we have been running this economy on debt.

The whole idea of the stimulus is to make people feel good again so they keep borrowing and spending money as if nothing happened. The problem is that people are not that stupid. They realize they should get their finances in order and rather than spending money they are saving it or reducing their debt because they do not know what tomorrow brings.

Who knows if the money was not spent there might be massive unemployment and it might have taken a generation to dig ourselves out of it.

The situation Obama faced when he entered office was not very fortunate by this reasoning. The economics was going down the drain, and the cookie jar was depleted (never filled).
Should he have handled the situation differently?
Could he have?
Would he have, if he could have seen the long term downturn (this is not just a hickup, but a full long crash...)

[mrs reb77]

Today I think things are a little different. The money being pumped into the economy will give it a temporary jolt but not one that will last. The reason why is because we have been running this economy on debt.

The whole idea of the stimulus is to make people feel good again so they keep borrowing and spending money as if nothing happened. The problem is that people are not that stupid. They realize they should get their finances in order and rather than spending money they are saving it or reducing their debt because they do not know what tomorrow brings.

Who knows if the money was not spent there might be massive unemployment and it might have taken a generation to dig ourselves out of it.


Numbers keep going up...there's some debate as to actual number but all agree it's currently between 9 and 11%. It's going to take more than a generation to half-assed pay down any of the debt Obama's team has racked up so far and they're only just beginning. :(

[glennac]

Just an observation here. I can't help but notice the biggest defenders of Obama and his socialist agenda on this forum lately seems to be coming from our foreign "friends" here. Perhaps they prefer a weak an ineffective US or are they true believers in a socialist and or communist world? Just wondering.:confused:

[printer2]

What I would like to know is where the money that was floating around in the economy went or was it just leveraged dreams? Or did we just buy a whole lot of stuff that just went into a landfill? Part of the wealth did go to China where they built up their infrastructure.

[whec720]

Just an observation here. I can't help but notice the biggest defenders of Obama and his socialist agenda on this forum lately seems to be coming from our foreign "friends" here. Perhaps they prefer a weak an ineffective US or are they true believers in a socialist and or communist world? Just wondering.:confused:

They want a level playing field, glen. I've mentioned this before; the Serpico scenario. They need to feel secure that everyone is in on the same scheme, in this case, socialism. They've bought into the crappy world order stuff. They want validation of their belief, that they made the right choice. It scares them that they might be wrong and were duped by those in charge that they trusted.

[whec720]

But that should have been done long before the downturn in the economics, in order to have any effect? Hence it cannot be blamed on current leadership, but previous, no?

Stupid is what stupid does. Kind a like beating your head with a hammer to get rid of a headache. Not too smart of an idea is it?

[printer2]

They want a level playing field, glen. I've mentioned this before; the Serpico scenario. They need to feel secure that everyone is in on the same scheme, in this case, socialism. They've bought into the crappy world order stuff. They want validation of their belief, that they made the right choice. It scares them that they might be wrong and were duped by those in charge that they trusted.

Do you actually read the posts? Think about the words. Or do you automatically read socialism and communism when someone does not parrot what you say?

We try to give you another perspective on what is happening in different parts of the world and it is an attack on your beliefs. We are at best misguided because that is what you have been taught to believe.

Believe in a new world order? Where do do you get that from? Is the whole world in the same crappy mess as the U.S.? Yes we are. My posts have been about living within your means. I gave my country's experience of getting into too much debt and how we had to get out of it and that I see the U.S. moving towards the same situation. I said the only way out of debt is to tax either the people or the companies more to pay down the debt. The talk of paying your bills brought cries of communism. Oh yeah, also of a superior attitude.

Do you guys want to hear different opinions or do you want this to be a good old boy's club where you tell the same jokes and slap each other on the backs?

Is the rest of your country also so narrow minded that they do not want to hear any other opinion other than their own? Left or right wing.

[Recessor]

Just an observation here. I can't help but notice the biggest defenders of Obama and his socialist agenda on this forum lately seems to be coming from our foreign "friends" here. Perhaps they prefer a weak an ineffective US or are they true believers in a socialist and or communist world? Just wondering.:confused:

A few points need clarification;
No we are not "friends" We are firends. I consider myself very fortunate to have some good american friends and I like your country in most aspects.
I am not a socialist. Or, I understand that I have to support the ones that cannot support themselves. I may not enjoy it, but I accept it.

What I am aiming for in this debate are comments not like "your don't think like I do, hence you bad, you die"
but rather comments with a little depth to them, some thought.

And! We DON'T want a weak America, our problem is that America is to weak right now. Your economics have failed you,
then it failed the rest of the world. Nobody would be happier than me, if this problem could go away.

What I was asking was: Could/Should Obama and his team do anything different? -I am not getting any answers on this, only:
They did wrong.
Ok, what did they do wrong, why? What should they have done?

[DeltaT]

A few points need clarification;
No we are not "friends" We are firends. I consider myself very fortunate to have some good american friends and I like your country in most aspects.
I am not a socialist. Or, I understand that I have to support the ones that cannot support themselves. I may not enjoy it, but I accept it.

What I am aiming for in this debate are comments not like "your don't think like I do, hence you bad, you die"
but rather comments with a little depth to them, some thought.

And! We DON'T want a weak America, our problem is that America is to weak right now. Your economics have failed you,
then it failed the rest of the world. Nobody would be happier than me, if this problem could go away.

What I was asking was: Could/Should Obama and his team do anything different? -I am not getting any answers on this, only:
They did wrong.
Ok, what did they do wrong, why? What should they have done?

I have a good lady friend that was born and raised in a small country near Italy that use to be communistic. I asked her what it was like being raised in an environment like that.

She said since she and the rest of the citizens were not allowed to vote, of if they did it didn't make any difference, their main goal was to survive, hope to not get killed going to or from work and not get taken away by the government in power at the time or day. The average person had no control so it wasn't their choice what form of govt they had at any given moment.

She's in the USA studying to become a doctor so she can either stay here or go to her home town to help people. And she has had to and still does have to overcome unbelievable circumstances to study and stay in this country.

She and the rest of her citizens are victims of their position in life and the last thing they want is a form of government that can take their lives or freedoms away at any given moment. And that equally goes as well for living in the USA, she says.

What I wanted to see Obama do or any president in charge was to do what any family anywhere in any country would have to do in a case of economic downturn, whatever the reason.

And that is to live within your means and WORK your way out of the problem -- Not attempt to spend your way out of a financial problem.

Obama used the credit card of the American worker and ran up a bill beyond anyones immagination all within a few short months. We have not yet received the billing invoice from that action but it is gaining interest on the debt as we speak plus the billing invoice is coming due in a few short months.

What he and his administration had done is unconscionable. In his immaturity he tried to buy the US and the world out of our feelings of debt and doom much like a person does after a personal tragedy who goes on a shopping spree.

The problem is that spending spree bill is coming due plus the money of the average American worked that was use to 'spiff - up' all of us went into deep pockets never to be seen again. That money just didn't "dissappear."

America, like the rest of the world, was built on the back of healthy and profittable small businesses. We have lost a major portion of that segment of society over the past 20 years due, mainly, to our federal governments favoritism to large corporations by managing the tax codes to their favor.

Due to that we have also lost just about all of our service and manufacturing industries in just about every state in this nation. Meanwhile we, as Americans, continued to spend as if we were producing the products of which we spent our unearned money on.

Building back the basis of a strong economy around small independent companies not only will bring back better products through the genius of the American and other contries creativity, but it will form a solid foundation, again, for this country to regain it's strong basis of producing goods and services.

But that means changing the direction of the institutions of the federal government as we have known it for over 20 plus years. And that is going to be a difficut to almost impossible job mainly due to the attitude of the average voter, most of whom voted Obama in office.

His voters do not understand that life is tough and tough decisions need to be made. And that there are many times that they are not going to get their ways or that all of life should feel good and fun.

My hope -- Obama; I have hope that he will change.

[whec720]

Do you actually read the posts? Think about the words. Or do you automatically read socialism and communism when someone does not parrot what you say?

We try to give you another perspective on what is happening in different parts of the world and it is an attack on your beliefs. We are at best misguided because that is what you have been taught to believe.

Believe in a new world order? Where do do you get that from? Is the whole world in the same crappy mess as the U.S.? Yes we are. My posts have been about living within your means. I gave my country's experience of getting into too much debt and how we had to get out of it and that I see the U.S. moving towards the same situation. I said the only way out of debt is to tax either the people or the companies more to pay down the debt. The talk of paying your bills brought cries of communism. Oh yeah, also of a superior attitude.

Do you guys want to hear different opinions or do you want this to be a good old boy's club where you tell the same jokes and slap each other on the backs?

Is the rest of your country also so narrow minded that they do not want to hear any other opinion other than their own? Left or right wing.

So now the USA is narrow minded because many of its population is against what the rest of the western world wants? Well Hells Bells, too bad for you.
Printer, I've never argued your point that the USA needs to cut spending. We actual agree on that but we disagree on how best to get out of the economic funk we are currently in. Park it with the, "you only want one opinion crap." Fire your opinions away as I will mine.;)

[Recessor]

I have a good lady friend that was born and raised in a small country near Italy that use to be communistic. I asked her what it was like being raised in an environment like that.

She said since she and the rest of the citizens were not allowed to vote, of if they did it didn't make any difference, their main goal was to survive, hope to not get killed going to or from work and not get taken away by the government in power at the time or day. The average person had no control so it wasn't their choice what form of govt they had at any given moment.

She's in the USA studying to become a doctor so she can either stay here or go to her home town to help people. And she has had to and still does have to overcome unbelievable circumstances to study and stay in this country.

She and the rest of her citizens are victims of their position in life and the last thing they want is a form of government that can take their lives or freedoms away at any given moment. And that equally goes as well for living in the USA, she says.

What I wanted to see Obama do or any president in charge was to do what any family anywhere in any country would have to do in a case of economic downturn, whatever the reason.

And that is to live within your means and WORK your way out of the problem -- Not attempt to spend your way out of a financial problem.

Obama used the credit card of the American worker and ran up a bill beyond anyones immagination all within a few short months. We have not yet received the billing invoice from that action but it is gaining interest on the debt as we speak plus the billing invoice is coming due in a few short months.

What he and his administration had done is unconscionable. In his immaturity he tried to buy the US and the world out of our feelings of debt and doom much like a person does after a personal tragedy who goes on a shopping spree.

The problem is that spending spree bill is coming due plus the money of the average American worked that was use to 'spiff - up' all of us went into deep pockets never to be seen again. That money just didn't "dissappear."

America, like the rest of the world, was built on the back of healthy and profittable small businesses. We have lost a major portion of that segment of society over the past 20 years due, mainly, to our federal governments favoritism to large corporations by managing the tax codes to their favor.

Due to that we have also lost just about all of our service and manufacturing industries in just about every state in this nation. Meanwhile we, as Americans, continued to spend as if we were producing the products of which we spent our unearned money on.

Building back the basis of a strong economy around small independent companies not only will bring back better products through the genius of the American and other contries creativity, but it will form a solid foundation, again, for this country to regain it's strong basis of producing goods and services.

But that means changing the direction of the institutions of the federal government as we have known it for over 20 plus years. And that is going to be a difficut to almost impossible job mainly due to the attitude of the average voter, most of whom voted Obama in office.

His voters do not understand that life is tough and tough decisions need to be made. And that there are many times that they are not going to get their ways or that all of life should feel good and fun.

My hope -- Obama; I have hope that he will change.

Now there's a comment worth typing!
Insightful and interesting, it clears some of the topics up for me!
So, with everything as it is, the money spent, bill coming. I guess it's time to buckle down and force through the crisis then? And I agree, the recipie for this is simple,
perhaps even as simple as you say. Funds must exceed cost. If that is not possible, cost must be made smaller than avaliable funds.
The big question is and will be, will it be possible, will it be acceptable? (Although I don't see many options)

I, as you, hope the current leadership will pull through with this. For something is for sure. Obama is very popular in the rest of the world (atleast as far as my knowledge stretches) and he's done more to restore a good name and reputation for the US than most other men and women ever did! And let's face it, reputation hasn't always been that good, sadly.

[DeltaT]

Now there's a comment worth typing!I, as you, hope the current leadership will pull through with this. For something is for sure. Obama is very popular in the rest of the world (atleast as far as my knowledge stretches) and he's done more to restore a good name and reputation for the US than most other men and women ever did! And let's face it, reputation hasn't always been that good, sadly.

Thanks
Obama is popular because he has been marketed that way. He is a marketing tool and was won over by all the hundreds of thousands of people in the world that believe it's possible to get something for nothing.....that's the short version. And most of them are young because that is the world they have been raised in and recognize.

So people love him in the same way they love Disney Land. It and he all look so good. No trash to pick up. No employee problems. Nothing breaks down or goes wrong. One person doesn't try to take advantage of another person or country. And if they do it makes for a good love story with a happy ending.

But below the ground and setting on many acres of buildings near by are all the "workers" and dirty, noisy, smelly maintenance headache machinery that make that appearance happen. ANd all this is kept behind the scene because it would upset the patrons of Disneyland to see this "real life."

The main street of Disneyland is where most of us want to live. It's attractive and we want to believe in it. It's child's play. Most of the Obama votes are children in that way.

Let's just go over seas and talk to the kind folks who keep killing us all over the world including on our own soil now. A group hug is all it takes. This is the new way of dealing with unattractive scenes in the new generations lives. They learned that all through life as they were pushed through never being allowed to fail, deal with real problems on their own or come to a realization that maybe, just maybe, there might be a time in their lives when all is not organized, all is not trendy and all is not available to them at a time and fashion when and as they desire.

Short version; there are times when there is no money in the check book so you are going to have to do without until you work hard and long to obtain simple things like food and clothing.

Well, talking never hurts. All of us agree to that. But you better be ready to move into position to defend yourself if the talking doesn't work. And you better be ready to call a dog a dog if the talkers are using your talking time to take a better stance at doing you in.

Who makes that decision? Our leaders make that decision, right or wrong, within the time frame and circumstances that they, and they alone, have to work with.

I'm all for talking -- up to a cetain point. But one thing I know is that a tiger never changes it's stripes. So what an attacked did before will most likely happen again.

Obama has absolutely no background in dealing with this. None. Zippo. He also has no real background in dealing in a free business society or has ever run or been involved in running a business.

And OJT (on the job training) is going to be very expensive in training a President.

He looks good & sounds good to most. That's it. Maybe he will come around before situations get any worse. I'm not holding my breath.

One hope I have for him to change is that the seat in the White House is not always filled by Presendential material at first. But that very seat has turned many a person who has sat in it into Presendential material.

[printer2]

What I wanted to see Obama do or any president in charge was to do what any family anywhere in any country would have to do in a case of economic downturn, whatever the reason.

And that is to live within your means and WORK your way out of the problem -- Not attempt to spend your way out of a financial problem.
[/QUOTE]

No need for me to repost the whole thing but this sums up how I feel.


So now the USA is narrow minded because many of its population is against what the rest of the western world wants? Well Hells Bells, too bad for you.
Printer, I've never argued your point that the USA needs to cut spending. We actual agree on that but we disagree on how best to get out of the economic funk we are currently in. Park it with the, "you only want one opinion crap." Fire your opinions away as I will mine.

I never said the USA is narrow minded, I said some posters here were. I have no problem with that as long as there are other posters fleshing out some ideas. DeltaT's post is a good example of what I was hoping to see. Even if someone takes a position that I do not see as viable states more than 'tough that is the way we do things around here'.

A timely program tonight on the CBC. Ten Trillion and Counting, found it for you on the PBS website. Not a good showing for either party, the Republicans or the Democrats.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tentrillion/view/


I used to work for a company where I was getting underpaid, my boss felt so too but his boss thought they could hire anyone off the street to do what I did. (they found out differently after I left)

One of the guys I worked with asked me why I fought so hard to get more when he knew I could go somewhere else and get paid more. Another guy answered him that I fought so hard because I liked the place and wanted to stay. (finally did leave and now I am making double)

Well that is how I feel about the USA. I could not imagine having a different neighbor and I do not want to see things go bad with her. All the states I have been in I have met good people. Really do not care for your politicians though.

[Recessor]

...Really do not care for your politicians though.

There's a statement that goes around the world I think :D





...What I wanted to see Obama do or any president in charge was to do what any family anywhere in any country would have to do in a case of economic downturn, whatever the reason...

And that is to live within your means and WORK your way out of the problem -- Not attempt to spend your way out of a financial problem.

And that pretty much sums up how I feel about it too.
The tragic part is that not all people can do this - to large mortgages or for whatever reason... :(
Perhaps any efforts should be made to help them help themselves?

[DeltaT]

There's a statement that goes around the world I think :D

And that pretty much sums up how I feel about it too.
The tragic part is that not all people can do this - to large mortgages or for whatever reason... :(
Perhaps any efforts should be made to help them help themselves?

We definately have different and interesting internal points of view or belief systems showing up.

The tragic part sentence, in my world and as I believe the world to be or should I say the USA way, would be rewritten to say: The tragic part is that not all people "want to" do this (due) to large mortgages or for whatever reason.....

Many of these folks that have found themselves (magically as if they didn't create their own situations, as we all do in some ways) where the mortgage is killing them, especially in the past 5 to 7 years, got that way due to their own doings.

They are only victims of their own greed or innocence, which ever words fits in with your emotion make-up, by purchasing real estate beyond their means. Or believeing that the Federal Government was doing them a favor by encouraging them to financially sign up for something they could not afford.

The grim reaper is going to catch up with the majority of them anyway due to their previous lack of judgement. So they need to fail, get out of their present situation and go back to sound financial and responsible management of their personal and business lives.

And the sooner they do that the sooner all of us will be allowed to get back on track through out the world.

As long as Uncle Dudley (the USA Federal Govt) continues to pretent to help them through the misuse of our tax paying money, the longer and the more indepth this undesirable situation is going to be and going to take.

Our elections are coming up. If the American public don't rise up and get rid of the people who put us in this situation through missmanagement then we are all going to hell in a hand basket anyway.

If the people of this country and other countries speak up and speak out through whatever democratic means they have available to demand returning back to sound economic and moral principles, then all of us are going to get back on track by working our way out of this mess we designed ourselves into.

Along the way there needs to be a great number of people that are going to look as if they failed and are falling on hard times...ya know, not being able to but a new car every year and to actually have to work for the money that they bring in to pay for food on the table or, heaven forbid, rent...not everyone deserves to own a home.

Obama should be in for some hard knocks of reality shortly along with all the folks that elected him. Reality catches up with all of us at one time or another.

And the sooner that this happens, the sooner all of us can get back to work!

[repz]

Lol, this is funny. A president who takes a tough stance against North Korea would be an F'ing idiot. We are staged into two fronts right now, or has everyone forgot that? We had an idiotic president send us to war to lose american lives for things that didnt exist and where the mission was NOT accomplished and the overal stragtegy of democracy will probably fail (and will NEVER be worth the American lives lost). Bin laden was not found, and chemical weapons was never found in Iraq. The US does NOT want to go to war, considering theirs still american lives dying in Iraq and Afghan because we stuck our nose in here and now cant get out.

And N korea has nuclear weapons. Pushing their "buttons" while we are economically strapped and are currently involved with an unpopular conflict in the mideast will be a stupid decision.

What do you expect to be done? Elect another warmonger to create an excuse to fight korea while he throws us into another depression?

[bb]

Lol, this is funny. A president who takes a tough stance against North Korea would be an F'ing idiot. We are staged into two fronts right now, or has everyone forgot that? We had an idiotic president send us to war to lose american lives for things that didnt exist and where the mission was NOT accomplished and the overal stragtegy of democracy will probably fail (and will NEVER be worth the American lives lost). Bin laden was not found, and chemical weapons was never found in Iraq. The US does NOT want to go to war, considering theirs still american lives dying in Iraq and Afghan because we stuck our nose in here and now cant get out.

And N korea has nuclear weapons. Pushing their "buttons" while we are economically strapped and are currently involved with an unpopular conflict in the mideast will be a stupid decision.

What do you expect to be done? Elect another warmonger to create an excuse to fight korea while he throws us into another depression?

Great! Another troll.

We had an idiotic president and Democratic Congress

You are on some Very old talking points.

This should be interesting ! :D

[repz]

Great! Another troll.

We had an idiotic president and Democratic Congress

You are on some Very old talking points.

This should be interesting ! :D

Lol, someone expresses their opinion and you call them a troll. I guess intelligent conversation is lost on you.

I guess "old talking points" is a free pass to forget stupidity.

President did many things without congress approval, and there was a loophole instate by the 1991 Gulf War resolution, which effectively can let him get involved in Iraq. And with the joint resolution of use of force after 911 granted Bush a freebe to head to Iraq, all he had to do was say they are hiding "Chemical Weapons". And I'm sure it was the Bush Administration who said they had the reports and reliable sources that they had these weapons... pretty close to fibbing if you ask me.

I'd say all people involved in politics are bad, just like Obama is hands deep in corporate pockets. But I'd take a lesser idiot than a big idiot.

[k-fridge]

Watch the insults folks. Keep things civil please.

ARPC

[mrs reb77]

Never mind, I'm not feeding trolls.

[glennac]

Lol, someone expresses their opinion and you call them a troll. I guess intelligent conversation is lost on you.

I guess "old talking points" is a free pass to forget stupidity.

President did many things without congress approval, and there was a loophole instate by the 1991 Gulf War resolution, which effectively can let him get involved in Iraq. And with the joint resolution of use of force after 911 granted Bush a freebe to head to Iraq, all he had to do was say they are hiding "Chemical Weapons". And I'm sure it was the Bush Administration who said they had the reports and reliable sources that they had these weapons... pretty close to fibbing if you ask me.

I'd say all people involved in politics are bad, just like Obama is hands deep in corporate pockets. But I'd take a lesser idiot than a big idiot.

Great we have another "zero" person on here supporting Obama. No profile, no name, no job, no history, no interests, no home town, no country, no life, no age, no sex, no citizenship, just hate Bush and love Obama. How interesting. Perhaps you would like to tell us something about yourself other than you love Obama and hate Bush. thank you very much.

[mrs reb77]

Well, it did take 9 months to work up to three posts...maybe he's pacing himself?

[coolperfect]

Great we have another "zero" person on here supporting Obama. No profile, no name, no job, no history, no interests, no home town, no country, no life, no age, no sex, no citizenship, just hate Bush and love Obama. How interesting. Perhaps you would like to tell us something about yourself other than you love Obama and hate Bush. thank you very much. Dont take this comment personally REPZ he said the same to me.I told him if he wanted to date me to find my full profile on Date match.com This way he could see if we are made for each other

[glennac]

Dont take this comment personally REPZ he said the same to me.I told him if he wanted to date me to find my full profile on Date match.com This way he could see if we are made for each other


I beg your pardon perfect but what are you smoking? Never said that to you nor did you make such a perverted reply. Show me the post. Try another tale, perhaps a true one this time. I guess we can take what you post and consider the source. Truth is not on your side. :) Thank you very much.

[tunnel_rat]

I'd say all people involved in politics are bad, just like Obama is hands deep in corporate pockets. But I'd take a lesser idiot than a big idiot.

Well, you got your idiot, now the question is, what are WE gonna do about him? Not all people involved in politics are bad, some actually have principles they stand for, and are trying to keep this a great and free nation. Then there are those like Barry O. who are beholden to the folks who got him into the big leagues way before he ever proved himself in the minors...:mad:
They needed a useful idiot to get their agendas passed, and lo and behold, here he came ready, willing and almost able.

Obama thinks the problems we are in are all GW's fault, at least that's what the teleprompter tells him to say. So the solution is to print up a pile of cash and throw some to his buds like ticker tape in the Macy's Parade. Make promises like a high school kid in the backseat of his daddy's car on prom night, tax everyone including the unborn to the point of poverty, and everyone will be equally miserable...Sounds like a plan.....:rolleyes:

[coolperfect]

I beg your pardon perfect but what are you smoking? Never said that to you nor did you make such a perverted reply. Show me the post. Try another tale, perhaps a true one this time. I guess we can take what you post and consider the source. Truth is not on your side. :) Thank you very much.http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=279322&page=13

[coolperfect]

As we speak about some BS little country half way around the world shooting 1960s SCUD rockets into the sea.OB is making things rite I think that the news will come out very soon that we have hit bottom and going up.

[Tool-Slinger]

Lol, this is funny. A president who takes a tough stance against North Korea would be an F'ing idiot. We are staged into two fronts right now, or has everyone forgot that? We had an idiotic president send us to war to lose american lives for things that didnt exist and where the mission was NOT accomplished and the overal stragtegy of democracy will probably fail (and will NEVER be worth the American lives lost). Bin laden was not found, and chemical weapons was never found in Iraq. The US does NOT want to go to war, considering theirs still american lives dying in Iraq and Afghan because we stuck our nose in here and now cant get out.

And N korea has nuclear weapons. Pushing their "buttons" while we are economically strapped and are currently involved with an unpopular conflict in the mideast will be a stupid decision.

What do you expect to be done? Elect another warmonger to create an excuse to fight korea while he throws us into another depression?
Lol, this is funny. A president who takes a tough stance against North Korea would be an F'ing idiot.

Backing off in cowardice is not a good policy, bad diplomacy.

We are staged into two fronts right now, or has everyone forgot that?

No, not forgotten, but neither dictating USA policy.

We had an idiotic president send us to war to lose american lives for things that didnt exist and where the mission was NOT accomplished and the overal stragtegy of democracy will probably fail (and will NEVER be worth the American lives lost).

Okay-dokie cindy sheenan, will you ever quit complaining about a war the democrats also backed? North Korea is a new issue, Iraq WAS DEFEATED as an enemy should be so stop polluting the the results with petty unsightly details. War has many unsightly details. Please focus on results please.

Bin laden was not found, and chemical weapons was never found in Iraq.

AlQueda was crushed beyond another attack ability. Saddam was killed, the trigger-man of any iraq weapons there, hidden, relocated, or bluffed. He is gone, a strategic victory.

The US does NOT want to go to war, considering theirs still american lives dying in Iraq and Afghan because we stuck our nose in here and now cant get out.

Nobody wants war. We could leave afgan today but it is being deemed worthy to stay there with all things considered, like continuing to pound alqueda and trying to bring some local acceptance of the 19st century.


And N korea has nuclear weapons.

At this time, only a few experimental devices with very limited delivery capacity.

Pushing their "buttons" while we are economically strapped and are currently involved with an unpopular conflict in the mideast will be a stupid decision.


We are not 'pushing their buttons'. They are 'pushing our buttons'. You must think about this outside the turtle-shell buddy. "THE ARABS ARE MAD, OH MY! THE ECONOMY IS BAD, OH MY! THE NORTH KOREANS ARE MAD, OH MY!" You need to calm down and take a deep breath and look at the situation without the emotional fear kicking in and overriding any rational thinking. Surrendering to NK because we have some other problems is not rational. Get a hold of yourself.

What do you expect to be done?

Stand up to the bastards. Stop cowering in fear.

Elect another warmonger to create an excuse to fight korea while he throws us into another depression?

Aside from the point that war causes depression,.... I think maybe it is the other way around,.. you need to stop being so focused on your 401k or house payment long enough to realize that there are bigger threats to your security than an economic downturn.

I understand your fear of war, I got it, I have it too. But you should try to understand my point that cowardice in the face of aggression will not deter it, rather encourage it. NK and Iran are ramping up nuke programs, even somalia pirates have run amok, they all know we have a pu$$ey for a president and are taking advantage of the weakness to make advances. You are scared, I can easily read it in your reply. So it goes with obama and the nut-cases he has been tasked to deal with............

Obama is a WUSS. My opinion, which does not count for much, but that is the opinion of those that do count. Seriously, Obama is being run over like a frog in the freeway.

[behappy]

or are there in fact better, yet unexploited options?

Yep, but the Washington crowd that we have will never do it. The FIRST thing that came into their heads was, "How do I pay back every one or corp. who helped get me elected!

We are seeing a (very) small example in our trade what else could be done. When the government gave a tax rebate for upgrading their A/C systems our trade heated up! Just think for a second if instead of wasting billions bailing out the car industry, they gave the billions to the public to buys cars. Everyone would be put to work (I know that they think that is a BAD word) and our economy would heat up. now give the rest of the money (blown) as rebates for other things and MORE people would have employment and our economy would explode! If you give people incentives the economy prospers. If you give money to banks we go into recession. IMHO

[repz]

Great we have another "zero" person on here supporting Obama. No profile, no name, no job, no history, no interests, no home town, no country, no life, no age, no sex, no citizenship, just hate Bush and love Obama. How interesting. Perhaps you would like to tell us something about yourself other than you love Obama and hate Bush. thank you very much.

Ahaha, this is so funny. Calling someone a "zero" and looking up their online credentials, are you serious? No life? coming from someone close to having a stroke when he reads my comments, and the best comeback as above...
You know how funny that looks? Its like you took this very personal as if you get a 401k plan and benefits from your obvious online professional elite career. Did you land this job from craigslist? Do they give you neat badges too? Is that superman icon what you think you are when you're online? Is that S sign your badge?


Also, debating the intelligence of a President with such foolish comments just further pushes away any support to your case, since you are contradicting the whole argument as soon as you breathe on your keyboard and babble, "uuuhhh youre a zerooooo, down with Obama".

There's something called a social life, learn to embrace it, and enjoy people who's name doesn't end with .com and doesn't leave when you turn off the power button

And I'm not an Obama supporter, but if I disagree with something I post. I don't even believe in two parties, I see only one.

And if you must know about me, just keep in mind I'm not gay.
I'm from Brooklyn New York, working on the BA in Facility Management and a few shy credits from an associate in Environmental Control, but lately I have showed great interest in a Police career in the last few years. I body-build, bench press over 250 and weight a muscled 180lb with low body-fat (sorry, I cant send you those pics, but check bodybuilding.com, I'm under the same name since you want to know so much about me) and I like spending my weeknights training in Mixed Martial Arts. I also enjoy horror movies, as though as the writing is good. I also like wrestling, but it doesn't have the same draw as it did in the 90's. I work selling Refrigerators and AC's and smaller appliances for a major retail store which pays my bills and schooling. What else you need to know? Am I free to go, super cool online fbi with the weird amazing superman pic guy?

[k-fridge]

Gentlemen,

If you continue to attach each other I will start handing out infractions. Discuss the issues, disagree all you want; but keep it civil.

Final warning.

ARPC

[forged alloy]

Am I free to go, super cool online fbi with the weird amazing superman pic guy?

My, my my.

If you want to be respected around here, you should participate in a little intellectual give and take before you start throwing around insults and sarcastic one-ups.

When you jump right into a pissing match when no one knows what you are about, no one will take you seriously. Don't take such offense when you get ignored or diss'd, it just means you need to participate more.

Have a nice weekend. Stay away from the Roids too, looks like lots of the MMA crowd partake. Do they test?

[repz]

True, I never said to turn a blind eye. Its just some posters messages seem to want to push it into conflict, yet they arent the ones fighting. And those policies, regardless of how strong a stance, doesnt work. They didnt work with Iran, South America, and Cuba. Cuba was called a terrorist group, they even attempted a failed invasion. Did they turn out to be a terrorist group? Did Russia turn out to send Nuclear weapons against us? No... most of the countries that backed down was when there was a money exhange.

And if America has something to gain, when it comes to money, then Korea would have been taken care of. Communism is over when USSR fell, its not a threat to Capitalist money anymore.

And many countries are starting to look at the US as a warmongering instigator. The culture of America is so strong, and the economy is so wide-spread, that people deal with it. If they didnt have that, then those global voting polls on American opinnion would be acted on a long time ago.

And these terrorist groups are still out there, and they keep getting a steady stream into their ranks. They are hiding out in Iran, Saudi Arabi (how many terrorist were from there, jesus, 90 percent are, why doesnt the USA get involved when SA has good standings with the US?) and Pahkistan, they arent in large numbers in Iraq, and there numbers dwindle even further in Afghanistan. And Americans are still dying In Iraq and Afghan, a quick look in the papers can verify that.

I can say I was enlisted in the military a few months after 911, and signed 5 days after 911. But online, those statements mean nothing, and I'm not about to show my dd214's. Granted I was injured and didnt complete OSUT, but in my case, its not fear, its diplomacy, and actually studying History of events.

And once this stronger stance happens? What will the result be? Embargo? Calling the UN to ban N Korea from the global scene? If they havent, they cant or they will, if it doesnt have an outcome, whats next?

Elect another Nam Draft dodger to send Americans to die?

[glennac]

........Elect another Nam Draft dodger to send Americans to die?

No just elect a communist who aims to destroy our country in 4 years.

Nice to know you have a "life" perhaps you could take the time to add to your profile also. It seems like most of the Obama supports on this forum are strictly anonymous for some reason.

Well you through a bunch of trash out in your posts without a lot of serious discussion or meaningful comments but a least we know something about you as you do about us if you care to check our profiles. Thank you very much.

[printer2]

No just elect a communist who aims to destroy our country in 4 years.
You guys would not know a communist if he fell on you from the sky. Our right wing party is about as far left as Obama, then we have a 'sort of middle party' then a left leaning party and finally the Communist party (they do not do very well)

Strangely if you drop an American into Canada or a Canadian in the USA they would not notice much of a difference in life other than we have free health care and you guys get to buy more different kinds of guns than we can.

[glennac]

................................Strangely if you drop an American into Canada or a Canadian in the USA they would not notice much of a difference in life other than we have free health care and you guys get to buy more different kinds of guns than we can.

Well you also forgot to add in addition to your lack of freedom to possess a firearm you also have lost some of your free speech rights. For instance you have to watch what you say about gays, criminal behavior among racial groups, religions, intelligence, etc. because rather true or not they can be labeled as hate speech by your big brother government up there and you can be arrested. How nice.

[whec720]

Free health care?:confused:

Ain't nothing free....the proof is in taxation. If it, or any other government program were "free", than there would be no taxes.

Free health care....what a lie.:cool:

[printer2]

Well you also forgot to add in addition to your lack of freedom to possess a firearm you also have lost some of your free speech rights. For instance you have to watch what you say about gays, criminal behavior among racial groups, religions, intelligence, etc. because rather true or not they can be labeled as hate speech by your big brother government up there and you can be arrested. How nice.

Come again? I no longer have any firearms, moved on to other things, but when I did I had more firepower than most Americans, tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition, easily blew off 5 to 10 thousand rounds a year. Got to the point where I could not fire a handgun because of all the abuse my wrist and elbow were taking.

You may hear a lot of noise in Toronto or Montreal against handguns but owning rifles and shotguns in the west and rural areas are is pretty normal. To not be able to buy a gun here you pretty much have to be a criminal, insane, or have a violent past with your significant other. Once you get a licence to buy guns you pay your money for a gun, get it registered, and the gun is yours. No limit to how many you can buy either.

We do have limits on hate speech. Start talking about killing another race or promoting terrorist activities and you are going to be arrested. But try and find many instances where this has actually happened and the outcome in the courts. The law has a "not withstanding" clause which prevents prosecution of individuals for religiously motivated hate speech. So as long as you 'truly believe' the hate you are spreading it is ok.

So let me get this right. You think promoting hatred is ok and trying to get people to live and let live (aw come on guys, can't you all just get along) as being not nice?

[printer2]

Free health care?

Ain't nothing free....the proof is in taxation. If it, or any other government program were "free", than there would be no taxes.

Free health care....what a lie.

Let's say I lost my job. No income, no way to make ends meet. Oh my god I have a pain in my side. I end up in emergency and they have to operate. Guess what, did not cost me a cent. No one hounding me to pay back the cost of a heart transplant, cancer therapy, whatever.

Yes the government pays for health care from tax revenue. Unlike the mess the US wants to set up the funds come from the federal government and are then transfered to the provincial governments that then pay the hospitals and doctors, whoever. Not as much waste as the US and the government gets deals because they buy in bulk.

We spend 10% of our GDP on health care while the US spends 17%. Yes the government gets its money from taxing people but part of the money also comes from companies and from royalties from countries resources. We do a pretty good job with our system but other countries such as France have even better systems. There is always room for improvement.

[whec720]

Let's say I lost my job. No income, no way to make ends meet. Oh my god I have a pain in my side. I end up in emergency and they have to operate. Guess what, did not cost me a cent. No one hounding me to pay back the cost of a heart transplant, cancer therapy, whatever.

Yes the government pays for health care from tax revenue. Unlike the mess the US wants to set up the funds come from the federal government and are then transfered to the provincial governments that then pay the hospitals and doctors, whoever. Not as much waste as the US and the government gets deals because they buy in bulk.

We spend 10% of our GDP on health care while the US spends 17%. Yes the government gets its money from taxing people but part of the money also comes from companies and from royalties from countries resources. We do a pretty good job with our system but other countries such as France have even better systems. There is always room for improvement.

Still ain't "free", so why call it that?:p

[printer2]

Is that the best you can do?

[whec720]

Is that the best you can do?

Yep and you never answered the question.

Is your health care free?

[whec720]

It is a YES or NO answer. I put mine in the NO column. How about you, printer?

[printer2]

I answered the question already that our health care is paid by taxes. I guess I should keep my answers to single sentences with only one syllable words.

[bootlen]

Come again? I no longer have any firearms, moved on to other things, but when I did I had more firepower than most Americans, tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition, easily blew off 5 to 10 thousand rounds a year. Got to the point where I could not fire a handgun because of all the abuse my wrist and elbow were taking.


A lot can be said for mediocrity when properly applied. Try it sometime.

[whec720]

I answered the question already that our health care is paid by taxes. I guess I should keep my answers to single sentences with only one syllable words.

Say the words, printer. Allow yourself to hear the truth. You know you can do it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rAHnwWfsaY

[Recessor]

Say the words, printer. Allow yourself to hear the truth. You know you can do it!

Am I understanding this correctly? Just because it is payed through taxes, enabling full care to -anyone- it is bad? Because of the tax thing?
Let's not get stuck on semantics here. The key thing here was that the care was no additional cost when needed. No economical planning, no loans, no special insurance.

[mrs reb77]

Sleight of hand!

Taxing the people to provide to them what they could procure on their own...taking from those that are successful and giving it to those that aren't (rather they're even trying to take care of themselves or not)...it's called big-brother, big government, socialism, communism, whatever--we DO NOT NEED IT HERE.

There is nothing in this life that is free. Just because YOU are not paying for it does not mean that SOMEONE is not. And, personally, being raised in a free society, makes me feel that it's all a bit...WRONG. Call if 'free' all day long. It's only free to those that suck off the government, not those that are being sucked off of.

[mrs reb77]

Am I understanding this correctly? Just because it is payed through taxes, enabling full care to -anyone- it is bad? Because of the tax thing?
Let's not get stuck on semantics here. The key thing here was that the care was no additional cost when needed. No economical planning, no loans, no special insurance.

Oh, and by the way, you are understanding it wrong. The planning on the drawing board right now is a change in 'insurance'. NOT providing the care itself. I really wish people could start understanding that insurance is NOT healthcare. Insurance is something you pay for in hopes that you don't have to use it and then when you do you find out they don't want to cover what you need to have done. Not to mention the deductibles....

[DeltaT]

I haven't really kept up with this post cause it seems to be getting off track or weird...but I'm interested in everyones opinion of what I see is the new proposed USA national health care thingy as compared to other countries.

The proposed USA had two conditions that I've read about.

One; every tax paying citizen must have health care either through a private industy or through the Fed Gov't. If not that citizen will be fined each year...$1,000 to $2,000 numbers have been kicked around.

Two: if a USA citizen already has private health care at the signing of the Fed system them may keep it. But if the citizen drops or loses the private insurance then they must go on the Feds program.

What say ye?

Oh yea. Wouldn't this progarm put a big smile on each and every existing private health insurance company cause they will have a ton of folks being forced to sign up now? And wouldn't this cause more of a monolopy in the insurance agency?

[DeltaT]

Oh, and by the way, you are understanding it wrong. The planning on the drawing board right now is a change in 'insurance'. NOT providing the care itself. I really wish people could start understanding that insurance is NOT healthcare. Insurance is something you pay for in hopes that you don't have to use it and then when you do you find out they don't want to cover what you need to have done. Not to mention the deductibles....

Brilliant!

[Recessor]

Sleight of hand!

Taxing the people to provide to them what they could procure on their own...taking from those that are successful and giving it to those that aren't (rather they're even trying to take care of themselves or not)...it's called big-brother, big government, socialism, communism, whatever--we DO NOT NEED IT HERE.

There is nothing in this life that is free. Just because YOU are not paying for it does not mean that SOMEONE is not. And, personally, being raised in a free society, makes me feel that it's all a bit...WRONG. Call if 'free' all day long. It's only free to those that suck off the government, not those that are being sucked off of.

I understand where you are coming from, and I want to agree. But I cannot. I can to a great bit, but not entirely. Please let me elaborate that a little:
There are, and always will be (for the forseable future atleast) persons that are not ABLE to fend for themselves, are not ABLE to care for themselves.
Be it that they lack the physical or mental capacity to do that, but they will be there.
The medical care, and a few select other things like a simple roof over the head, and food. These are things that can be provided to them only through a common care system
- or the benevelance of individuals...
Remove the benevelance - The will to help those in need. Remove the safetynet that is basic survival care. You'd be better of strangling them out of their misery...
Strangling because of the cost for ammo...

I am NOT saying that these persons, or the other ones who does not WANT to make their own way should have luxurious houses with pools and two cars inside their garage.

[mrs reb77]

Unfortunately those people and the programs that support them are already strangling our system at a huge burden to all other taxpayers. And now, our government is proposing this behemoth system, ridiculed with wasteful spending and graft and corruption for all of us.

See my thread on the social security employees and their stress. I really don't see it as a good use of my tax dollar. They think they have stress? They should try being a small business owner providing for their family and trying to pay for healthcare, mortgage, fuel and food.

[DeltaT]

There are, and always will be (for the forseable future atleast) persons that are not ABLE to fend for themselves, are not ABLE to care for themselves.
Be it that they lack the physical or mental capacity to do that, but they will be there.
The medical care, and a few select other things like a simple roof over the head, and food. These are things that can be provided to them only through a common care system
- or the benevelance of individuals...
Remove the benevelance - The will to help those in need. Remove the safetynet that is basic survival care. You'd be better of strangling them out of their misery...
Strangling because of the cost for ammo...

I am NOT saying that these persons, or the other ones who does not WANT to make their own way should have luxurious houses with pools and two cars inside their garage.

I think we are dealing with two differnce froms of life experiences based on what or what is not provided for by the US from of Govt and your form of Govt.

Basically we are both the same in principal. In how we in the USA provide for those that can not help themselves is where I don't think you can see from your vantage point.

Although both of our countries have "street people" for lack of a better term, we have provisions in our local, state and federal systems to take as best of care of these people in whatever way we can.

Our free society based on free will and free choice allows us and insists that we, as working Americans, pay in and through our local, state and Federal taxes so that part of those taxe can go toward assisting and keeping protected those that can not help themselves.

Apparently your country has a different attitude in the way they perform this same function. We also perform the same funciton but in a different way.

I really think this come down to a sociological value system and there-in lies the miss understandings between us. Even most of our founding documents and our monuments in and around our nations Capitol include words and thought of taking care of and providing for the masses who are not able to provide for themselves. Take a look at the Statue of Liberty, as one example.

But ours is not based on a socialist system. Ours is based on a fee society where those that may need the most assistance have a right to turn that assistance down as long as there are no mental health issues.

We get to make our own choices, right or wrong. Not the Federal Government and based on the law of the land.

[Recessor]

Oh, and by the way, you are understanding it wrong. The planning on the drawing board right now is a change in 'insurance'. NOT providing the care itself. I really wish people could start understanding that insurance is NOT healthcare. Insurance is something you pay for in hopes that you don't have to use it and then when you do you find out they don't want to cover what you need to have done. Not to mention the deductibles....

Aye, I see where I made a mistake here. I DID fall in the train of thoughs that are "my life". I remember reading a little about this system. It seemed to me, at the time, that medical instances (capitalists of health :rolleyes:) had pushed and pulled the gov. around on that... I can't say that I would want to live in that proposed system. I suspect more than a few dollars will go off track here and there.



...Although both of our countries have "street people" for lack of a better term, we have provisions in our local, state and federal systems to take as best of care of these people in whatever way we can.

Our free society based on free will and free choice allows us and insists that we, as working Americans, pay in and through our local, state and Federal taxes so that part of those taxe can go toward assisting and keeping protected those that can not help themselves.

Apparently your country has a different attitude in the way they perform this same function. We also perform the same funciton but in a different way.

...

But ours is not based on a socialist system. Ours is based on a fee society where those that may need the most assistance have a right to turn that assistance down as long as there are no mental health issues...

I took the liberty of shorten your comment. Always good comments though.
Well... What do I say to that... It seems that there are more similarities between our systems than I thought... We do also have homeless people. They are so, however, almost always from their choice. It is shameful to get the "freebie" they rather make it on their own then bear with the shame of getting money for nothing. I think it's a honorable trate, the downside is... they still need the money and they find other, more or less intuitive ways of getting them...

But it seems that the basics of the care system are the same. No more, no less socialist than in Sweden atleast. (Or so it would seem, there are of course more nuances to this - as always ;)).

[DeltaT]

I just think there is a deeper problem here that we have not defined in words yet. I think it take more talk, more understanding and more acceptance of things none of us are use to facing.

We, over here, are representative of what could be happening in the rest of the world in the future. We are the petri dish of the coming civilization, or lack of.

All things are a test for all of us to see what we will or will not accept. All of us of a free nature and good thoughts wants good & healthy things in and around our lives and our families.

This is a test of the emergency broadcasting system.

OK, that's a joke or pun because we, in American, use to have radio broadcasts stating those words should we have flying things coming at us with the intent to relocate our bodies to a different thousand places.

It's still another test in life as to see what all of us are willing to accept. Your area of the world certainly has been tested and survived and we can continue to do so as long as we all stick together.

As Red Green says: We're all in this together!

[whec720]

Am I understanding this correctly? Just because it is payed through taxes, enabling full care to -anyone- it is bad? Because of the tax thing?
Let's not get stuck on semantics here. The key thing here was that the care was no additional cost when needed. No economical planning, no loans, no special insurance.

Printer stated earlier that, because he lives in Canada, his health care is free, when, in fact, it is not.
He won't even come out and say it. All he will admit is that a tax is levied for it. I didn't ask if it was good or bad.

[printer2]

Printer stated earlier that, because he lives in Canada, his health care is free, when, in fact, it is not.
He won't even come out and say it. All he will admit is that a tax is levied for it. I didn't ask if it was good or bad.

But do you not see that the important answer to the question is if it is good or bad.

We as a society has decided that health care is a right that each of our citizens should have. When we went from a private system to our 'socialist' system in 1967 it was to be able to cover everyone.



Sleight of hand!

Taxing the people to provide to them what they could procure on their own...taking from those that are successful and giving it to those that aren't (rather they're even trying to take care of themselves or not)...it's called big-brother, big government, socialism, communism, whatever--we DO NOT NEED IT HERE.

There is nothing in this life that is free. Just because YOU are not paying for it does not mean that SOMEONE is not. And, personally, being raised in a free society, makes me feel that it's all a bit...WRONG. Call if 'free' all day long. It's only free to those that suck off the government, not those that are being sucked off of


I have no problem with you having a 'free' choice of if you want health care or not. I just find it odd you would defend a system that sucks 16% of your GDP out of your country, we pay 10% with effectively the same health care.

I do not understand how you would want the status quo to remain that way. Actually the projections are that in seven years it will be 20%. I do not agree with the changes that Obama wants to make, just another layer on another layer one another layer...

If you are going to fix a system at least do it so it will save you money.

[meoberry]

Thank you!
You state many well formulated points here.
However everything else, it is undoubtedly a mismanagment if about half the population thinks the president and his staff does a poor job. Either they really do a poor job,
or they do a good job but on the wrong things. In any case they should consider communicating with their voters better. Either to better inform, why they do certain things,
or realise what they should be working on.

This is the ultimate consequence of a democracy I think :)
Mayority rules, mayority voted for Obama. So, Obama is now your leader.
(And it's only for four years - if the population is really miscontent, there will be a new leader soon)

The problem is that he does not hear the people. Like all the politicians they forgot who they work for. They think they are smarter than the rest of us out here that work and pay taxes.:mad:

[meoberry]

......what difference does it make. This essay makes some good points and is blunt in its presentation. It is much more believable than anything the Obama loving NBC has to offer.
The fact is, the US government caused much of this problem, now it has to fix it. Like it or not, Obama must deal with this. Oh well, he wanted the job, now he has it. GET TO WORK!

http://download.premiereradio.net/guest/rushlimb/pdf/nailing.pdf

Are you kidding all he wants to do is fly all over the word for so called diplomatic talks. Thats not his job. That is what we have diplomats for. Oh! by the way what he calls diplomatic talks I would call a vacation at the tax payers expense. But, it might be cheaper this way. At least he can't increase the deficit if he is out of the country.:rolleyes:

[meoberry]

The situation, whatever it is, is now on Obama's shoulder. He needs to stop the crying about how he 'inherited' it. That is just further babble, and further 'cowardice'.

Fabulous link whec.

Thats right he knew the problems before he swore in. If he didn't that would just say he was incompetent.;)

[meoberry]

How is the failure of an obsolete economy system Obamas fault?

There can not really be any doubt that some drastic changes has to be made here, can there? But the system failed well before Obama came to presidency.
Sadly enough it affected great parts of the world with it. Also my country... (But luckily not me!:p)

The so called obselete economy system had worked for two hundred years. It wasn't until the government tried to control it that the problems started.

[meoberry]

I thought it was Wall Street that got the world into the mess it is right now.

No. It was the government trying to control bussiness exspecially the lending market that has caused this snowball effect.

[whec720]

But do you not see that the important answer to the question is if it is good or bad.

We as a society has decided that health care is a right that each of our citizens should have. When we went from a private system to our 'socialist' system in 1967 it was to be able to cover everyone.

Sure I see it. What makes you believe I don't, just because I see it differently than you?

Anytime you take something you did not earn, it is bad. Important answer, isn't it? Income wealth re-distribution is just that, taking, not earning.
Not good in my book.

BTW, God grants me my rights, not some government. That is the American way, not the Canadian way.

Have it your way there and we'll have it our way here.

[coolperfect]

I think the mess is just about over I am up over 7% last week in the market.This rally came from companys reporting good numbers It was not only done on cost cutting but overall doing business,thank you OB

[printer2]

This economic mess is just a hiccup compared to what is coming. The markets will come back, companies will make profits again, everybody will give a sigh of relief and we will forget all about it until it happens again.

Anyone remember 2000? How we forgot about fundamentals, that the New Economy had only one direction and that was up.

Well we are going to have another large elephant in the room. With the baby boomers retiring and less people paying taxes our federal and local governments are going to be squeezed more than they are now. It is a shame the current generation is willing to have their children pay for what we have now.

[Recessor]

Sure I see it. What makes you believe I don't, just because I see it differently than you?

Anytime you take something you did not earn, it is bad. Important answer, isn't it? Income wealth re-distribution is just that, taking, not earning.
Not good in my book.

BTW, God grants me my rights, not some government. That is the American way, not the Canadian way.

Have it your way there and we'll have it our way here.

Naturally you can have any way you want, it is your country, and it's a part of the free world. It just seems a bit cold and egoistic to me, to not help those that cannot help themselves.
Challenged citizens etc. But hey, that's just my freedom of thought and speech...

[Recessor]

Naturally you can have any way you want, it is your country, and it's a part of the free world. It just seems a bit cold and egoistic to me, to not help those that cannot help themselves.
Challenged citizens etc. But hey, that's just my freedom of thought and speech...

Perhaps we are talking about different things? I am the first to say that those who have the opportunity and ability to get and hold a job. They should be forced into working head first!

[whec720]

Naturally you can have any way you want, it is your country, and it's a part of the free world. It just seems a bit cold and egoistic to me, to not help those that cannot help themselves.
Challenged citizens etc. But hey, that's just my freedom of thought and speech...

Nothing wrong with with that. All opinions are welcome, as is advice. Don't be put off if others don't take your advice. You seem to be pushing your country's way unto us.
Thanks but no thanks.

[bob mel]

How many of those opposed to Health Care reform are happy that your Premiums have doubled since year 2000 ? Have your taxes increased that much ? If premiums were reduced and coverage increased would we not benefit ? Even though the possibility of an increase in taxes is there ( and that increase would be less than what you were paying to the insurance companies for premiums ) would that not be a net increase in your income ?
Why are people so willing to allow the insurance companies to make outrageous profits off of your hard earned dollars but complain when the government does it ?
One last question. Where do you get more bang for your buck ? Insurance premiums or taxes ?

[mrs reb77]

Bob, I think you're missing the point. No, the insurance companies shouldn't be making outrageous profits on the misfortune of others. But, the government is talking about FORCING YOU to have insurance! NOT lowering the price of healthcare, forcing INSURANCE. Insurance is not health care! I currently have health care. Any time I need to see my local doctor I call their office and go in. I write THEM a check that day. I mosey over to the pharmacy if needed and write them a check too! No insurance company involved because this is healthcare, not insurance! My doctor isn't "in" insurance, she's in healthcare.

What needs to change (desperately!) are the overhead costs of doing business as a doctor. Their malpractice insurance is astronomical. And, the insurance companies have them over a barrel with 'reasonable and customary' crap. Insurance companies have been allowed to regulate the standard of care in this country--that is what needs to change.

[mrs reb77]

I have no problem with you having a 'free' choice of if you want health care or not. I just find it odd you would defend a system that sucks 16% of your GDP out of your country, we pay 10% with effectively the same health care.



Funny, that's not what we hear...

[whec720]

How many of those opposed to Health Care reform are happy that your Premiums have doubled since year 2000 ? Have your taxes increased that much ? If premiums were reduced and coverage increased would we not benefit ? Even though the possibility of an increase in taxes is there ( and that increase would be less than what you were paying to the insurance companies for premiums ) would that not be a net increase in your income ?
Why are people so willing to allow the insurance companies to make outrageous profits off of your hard earned dollars but complain when the government does it ?
One last question. Where do you get more bang for your buck ? Insurance premiums or taxes ?

You struck a chord there, bob. I always believed that the individual should purchase health insurance for himself or his immediate family. Why not? We do it for auto, life, and homeowners insurance. Why is the employer involved in the purchasing of your health insurance? In fact, most employers pay the majority of your health insurance as a benefit. That is one of the main reasons premiums are so high.
People who have health insurance through their employer, don't see or pay the whole cost of their medical, out of pocket. They don't see it and therefore, don't care. So why not charge outrageous expenses for medical services? You can get away with it because the patient's boss is gonna pick up most of the bill.
If people had to pay for their own health insurance, like they do for auto, the health industry would have to charge premiums what the market could bare. Prices would have to come down. Hardly anybody could afford it, as it is now.

[bob mel]

Bob, I think you're missing the point. No, the insurance companies shouldn't be making outrageous profits on the misfortune of others. But, the government is talking about FORCING YOU to have insurance! NOT lowering the price of healthcare, forcing INSURANCE. Insurance is not health care! I currently have health care. Any time I need to see my local doctor I call their office and go in. I write THEM a check that day. I mosey over to the pharmacy if needed and write them a check too! No insurance company involved because this is healthcare, not insurance! My doctor isn't "in" insurance, she's in healthcare.

What needs to change (desperately!) are the overhead costs of doing business as a doctor. Their malpractice insurance is astronomical. And, the insurance companies have them over a barrel with 'reasonable and customary' crap. Insurance companies have been allowed to regulate the standard of care in this country--that is what needs to change.

Thanks for your input. Some of what you say needs some debate . When you write those checks doesn't the insurance you have determine your cost ? How much do you pay for insurance and what do you get from it ? As for malpractice insurance I totally agree . It is a scam to say all doctors should pay such a high rate determined by the insurance companies. Why should a doctor that has been practicing for many years without incident have to pay for the doctors that butcher people ? The argument from insurance companies about junk law suits does not fly anymore when the facts are known. Most suits are settled before they go to court and oh by the way when they are settled it is because the doctor did something wrong and why shouldn't they pay ? The doctor that creates those suits are the ones that drive up the cost and not the lawyers. If tha AMA would weed out the poor doctors from the profession then suits would decrease. If a bad doctor was made known and not shielded from the public then that doctor would go away and cost would come down..
As you can see my main concern is INSURANCE COMPANIES and their controll of our Healthcare (premiums and doctors). That is what needs to be fixed and not really sure if or how that can be done.

[mrs reb77]

Yes, and you'd see a decrease in over used unneeded testing.

Short story: I had a job with employer subsidized health insurance. I still paid a considerable amount each month for my portion but, it was required. My husband had pain in his left shoulder and elbow. He's left handed and had been using a drill overhead for an extensive amount of time on a job. He went to the doctor (the one he had to see for insurance). They sent him for x-rays AND MRI. Nothing conclusive (so they said) so the sent him for a CT scan (or something similar--been a few years) and still didn't know what was up. Next they scheduled him for a heart monitor test and a nerve conduction study. Between scheduling this and the scheduled appointments, I lost my job and the employer subsidized health insurance. COBRA was totally outrageous ($1k a month) and so we didn't take it. We did keep the appointments though and guess what they found out??? Nothing. Back to the dr. Who found out we no longer had insurance and guess what he said? Oh, well, I wouldn't have suggested all those tests if I'd know you were paying and not the insurance. Here, go see this Orthopedist. We did. He took another x-ray, diagnosed overuse and pre arthritic condition, gave steroid/cortisone shots, prescribed rest of the arm and shoulder and charged us $500+.

Shoulder felt much better and our pocket book was much lighter and we learned a lesson. Self pay at a dr. office is much cheaper around here than insurance. And, dr.s are having tests done needlessly because insurance pays for them.

[whec720]

Funny, that's not what we hear...

That is not what they are saying in Canada either. Read this quote from the Toronto Star:


Most problems stem from one cause. From the beginning, we ignored advice and made taxes the single source of funding. But there never are sufficient revenues for an open-ended system. This is why we struggle with scarcity of staff and equipment. While the U.S. probably spends too much on health care, Canada needs to spend more. We have to pay the price if we want a first-class system

Here is the whole article. Once again, the USA plays the part as a dufus. Typical of the Canadian state run media.

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_0_0_t&usg=AFQjCNFkw6LBgtPhuxKKRHaf_pSLv6yivA&cid=1276693629&ei=KEBjSvjUKo6Q9QSy-OqMAQ&rt=SEARCH&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thestar.com%2FOpinion%2Fartic le%2F668161

[mrs reb77]

Thanks for your input. Some of what you say needs some debate . When you write those checks doesn't the insurance you have determine your cost ? How much do you pay for insurance and what do you get from it ? As for malpractice insurance I totally agree . It is a scam to say all doctors should pay such a high rate determined by the insurance companies. Why should a doctor that has been practicing for many years without incident have to pay for the doctors that butcher people ? The argument from insurance companies about junk law suits does not fly anymore when the facts are known. Most suits are settled before they go to court and oh by the way when they are settled it is because the doctor did something wrong and why shouldn't they pay ? The doctor that creates those suits are the ones that drive up the cost and not the lawyers. If tha AMA would weed out the poor doctors from the profession then suits would decrease. If a bad doctor was made known and not shielded from the public then that doctor would go away and cost would come down..
As you can see my main concern is INSURANCE COMPANIES and their controll of our Healthcare (premiums and doctors). That is what needs to be fixed and not really sure if or how that can be done.
We don't have health insurance. We pay for our own health care when needed. Our healthcare practictioner has an 'insurance price' and a 'self pay' price. If you can pay today you pay half as much as someone that has insurance or has to make payments. Why should ANY insurance be setting prices????
No, most suits aren't settled because a dr. did something wrong. They're settled because the lawyers get away with it. Simply put, most suits wouldn't be brought if a lawyer wasn't pushing it in the first place.

[bob mel]

We don't have health insurance. We pay for our own health care when needed. Our healthcare practictioner has an 'insurance price' and a 'self pay' price. If you can pay today you pay half as much as someone that has insurance or has to make payments. Why should ANY insurance be setting prices????
No, most suits aren't settled because a dr. did something wrong. They're settled because the lawyers get away with it. Simply put, most suits wouldn't be brought if a lawyer wasn't pushing it in the first place.

You do realize that those lawyers work for free unless they win their suit. Why would a lawyer take a case if it had NO MERIT and waste his time ? Are they not small business owners who are out to make a profit ? Do they not have employees they need to pay ?
I too have a story to tell concerning a law suit against a doctor. It was settled out of court because the lawyers agreed on a settlement. The doctor did wrong and caused a person to no longer to be able to work
Doctors are not the problem. If those test were not performed on your husband and the pain continued I am sure you would wonder if the doctor was doing all that he could.
That COBRA cost is what your premium was for your insurance. Your employeer picked up most of that cost before you were let go. Those cost are what is hurting business owners and employees and need to be addressed with some form of healthcare reform.
As for the insurance charge versus the patient charge. I am sure that previously when you got a bill from your doctor you noticed how much he charged versus what the insurance company paid. Again the insurance companies dictate our premiums and also what a doctor gets paid.
So please tell me WHO runs healthcare ? Insurance companies or doctors ?

[mrs reb77]

I didn't say I didn't understand insurance costs. I don't need COBRA or employer payments explained to me. I did state that insurance companies with their 'reasonable and customary' are in a place they shouldn't be too.

Doctors that do 'wrong' should be punished. Should they have to carry multimillion dollar policies so people can sue them for anything and everything though? NO. Constantly on tv you see the 'class action' suits where 'you may be eligible'. Yeah, those are really helping. What about the people that sue McDonald's because their coffee was too hot and they burned their whatever on it? People that misuse anything and then sue the manufacturer when they injury themselves? All bullcrap that is turning our country into a litigious cesspool. The cost of healthcare continues to rise because people don't think they are responsible for themselves anymore. They think insurance is a right and running to the doctor for every sniffle is the way to go. Hang nail? Better get that looked at. Pimple? Better see the dermatologist. Oh, and this is all covered under my insurance right?? :(
If you think the only lawsuits that are brought against healthcare providers/institutions are on a 'paid if won basis' I'd like to see your proof. Just isn't so. And, if you think a lawyer won't take a case unless they see merit then you don't know enough lawyers. There are many out there that will try their damndest to win the case (and get a % of the proceeds) regardless of the circumstances or merit--after all, someone is responsible, right?

[mrs reb77]

Doctors are not the problem. If those test were not performed on your husband and the pain continued I am sure you would wonder if the doctor was doing all that he could.
That COBRA cost is what your premium was for your insurance. Your employeer picked up most of that cost before you were let go. Those cost are what is hurting business owners and employees and need to be addressed with some form of healthcare reform.


Yet again, I state: Insurance is NOT healthcare and healthcare is NOT insurance.

Until people realize that the two are not one and the same we'll be going round and round.

I have car insurance and homeowners insurance. Does car insurance cover oil changes, mechanical repairs and washing/waxing? Does homeowners insurance cover yard care, painting, driveway maintenance, plumbing repairs, HVAC maintenance, upgrading appliances, putting on a new roof?
NO!! Those insurances are for something BAD happening not for routine everyday living.

[Tool-Slinger]

I didn't say I didn't understand insurance costs. I don't need COBRA or employer payments explained to me. I did state that insurance companies with their 'reasonable and customary' are in a place they shouldn't be too.

Doctors that do 'wrong' should be punished. Should they have to carry multimillion dollar policies so people can sue them for anything and everything though? NO. Constantly on tv you see the 'class action' suits where 'you may be eligible'. Yeah, those are really helping. What about the people that sue McDonald's because their coffee was too hot and they burned their whatever on it? People that misuse anything and then sue the manufacturer when they injury themselves? All bullcrap that is turning our country into a litigious cesspool. The cost of healthcare continues to rise because people don't think they are responsible for themselves anymore. They think insurance is a right and running to the doctor for every sniffle is the way to go. Hang nail? Better get that looked at. Pimple? Better see the dermatologist. Oh, and this is all covered under my insurance right?? :(
If you think the only lawsuits that are brought against healthcare providers/institutions are on a 'paid if won basis' I'd like to see your proof. Just isn't so. And, if you think a lawyer won't take a case unless they see merit then you don't know enough lawyers. There are many out there that will try their damndest to win the case (and get a % of the proceeds) regardless of the circumstances or merit--after all, someone is responsible, right?
synovial cyst:

Estimate from expert, 12,000$ eight years ago.

Drained from another expert 7 years ago, 200$

Home remedy 5 years ago, slamming it with a heavy book, no real cost and it did not hurt as you might think. It looks like that sucker is coming back, I am going to have to whup out the thesaurus on that thing and give it a good whack. :D

I tend to avoid heathcare talks because I know there are problems with both healthcare and insurance. But getting the feds more involved is damm sure a recipe for disaster. The feds might work on the regulation end and fix some insurance problems.....

Beware mandating coverage, as you 'raise the bar' for a person to become a viable contributing consumer.

[bob mel]

I didn't say I didn't understand insurance costs. I don't need COBRA or employer payments explained to me. I did state that insurance companies with their 'reasonable and customary' are in a place they shouldn't be too.

Doctors that do 'wrong' should be punished. Should they have to carry multimillion dollar policies so people can sue them for anything and everything though? NO. Constantly on tv you see the 'class action' suits where 'you may be eligible'. Yeah, those are really helping. What about the people that sue McDonald's because their coffee was too hot and they burned their whatever on it? People that misuse anything and then sue the manufacturer when they injury themselves? All bullcrap that is turning our country into a litigious cesspool. The cost of healthcare continues to rise because people don't think they are responsible for themselves anymore. They think insurance is a right and running to the doctor for every sniffle is the way to go. Hang nail? Better get that looked at. Pimple? Better see the dermatologist. Oh, and this is all covered under my insurance right?? :(
If you think the only lawsuits that are brought against healthcare providers/institutions are on a 'paid if won basis' I'd like to see your proof. Just isn't so. And, if you think a lawyer won't take a case unless they see merit then you don't know enough lawyers. There are many out there that will try their damndest to win the case (and get a % of the proceeds) regardless of the circumstances or merit--after all, someone is responsible, right?

Please know facts before you make your assumptions. McDonalds was aware that the cup they were using was unsafe. There had been many complaints of people geting burnt by the cheap cup. That is why they were sued.
When the auto mfgr's designed cars that would blow up I guess that was ok too.
When coal miners were exposed to horrible conditions I guess that was ok too.
When navy personnel were exposed to asbestos that is ok TOO.

Get the point..........sometimes we the people need protection and people expect the GOVERNMENT to do that for us ?....eh....maybe sometimes lawsuits are helpfull. Agreed ?

[k-fridge]

Please know facts before you make your assumptions. McDonalds was aware that the cup they were using was unsafe. There had been many complaints of people geting burnt by the cheap cup. That is why they were sued.
When the auto mfgr's designed cars that would blow up I guess that was ok too.
When coal miners were exposed to horrible conditions I guess that was ok too.
When navy personnel were exposed to asbestos that is ok TOO.

Get the point..........sometimes we the people need protection and people expect the GOVERNMENT to do that for us ?....eh....maybe sometimes lawsuits are helpfull. Agreed ?
It had nothing to do with the cup. McDonald's used to brew their coffee at a higher temp than most restaurants because they felt it improved the quality. They lowered the brew temp after the lawsuit, that was the gist of the suit.

I do know the facts BTW.

[Tool-Slinger]

Please know facts before you make your assumptions. McDonalds was aware that the cup they were using was unsafe. There had been many complaints of people geting burnt by the cheap cup. That is why they were sued.
When the auto mfgr's designed cars that would blow up I guess that was ok too.
When coal miners were exposed to horrible conditions I guess that was ok too.
When navy personnel were exposed to asbestos that is ok TOO.

Get the point..........sometimes we the people need protection and people expect the GOVERNMENT to do that for us ?....eh....maybe sometimes lawsuits are helpfull. Agreed ?
LOL bob, sheet, how is any cup unsafe? LOL!

I will never be able to look at my coffee cup again in the same way. :D:D

[keviekev70]

HVAC guys are quiet intelegent...

[DeltaT]

Please know facts before you make your assumptions. McDonalds was aware that the cup they were using was unsafe. There had been many complaints of people geting burnt by the cheap cup. That is why they were sued.

For some reason years ago I studdied this McDonalds law case. The facts, as I remember, were that McDonalds served their coffee at 180 degrees where other places served at 140 degrees. 180 degrees causes serious burns where 140 will cause a minor burn.

McDonalds had been sued many, many times before this ladies law suit but always settled out of court so the public never heard of this until this ladies law suit, which made her look like she was absurd in her claim when, in fact, she received unbelievable burns to the inside of her thights....you should she the pictures!

The basis for the law suit was that McDonalds had a history of law suits acknowledging that their their coffee was served at a very dangerous temperature. And McDonalds did nothing to take action on correcting this.

Once the ladies attorney found that out then he went after McDonalds and won, rightly so. Later the award was cut in half, I think.

McDonalds was at fault due to failing to take action on an obvious problem that they created through maintaining served coffee at 180 degrees. As far as I know it had nothing to do with their cups but I could be wrong.

When I found this out, then the law suit made a lot of sense to me and I would have sued to based on this information not known by the general public.

Interesting, huh?

[Tool-Slinger]

HVAC guys are quiet intelegent...
Stupid is as stupid does, fix it yourself.

[whec720]

For some reason years ago I studdied this McDonalds law case. The facts, as I remember, were that McDonalds served their coffee at 180 degrees where other places served at 140 degrees. 180 degrees causes serious burns where 140 will cause a minor burn.

McDonalds had been sued many, many times before this ladies law suit but always settled out of court so the public never heard of this until this ladies law suit, which made her look like she was absurd in her claim when, in fact, she received unbelievable burns to the inside of her thights....you should she the pictures!

The basis for the law suit was that McDonalds had a history of law suits acknowledging that their their coffee was served at a very dangerous temperature. And McDonalds did nothing to take action on correcting this.

Once the ladies attorney found that out then he went after McDonalds and won, rightly so. Later the award was cut in half, I think.

McDonalds was at fault due to failing to take action on an obvious problem that they created through maintaining served coffee at 180 degrees. As far as I know it had nothing to do with their cups but I could be wrong.

When I found this out, then the law suit made a lot of sense to me and I would have sued to based on this information not known by the general public.

Interesting, huh?

Hmmmm.......if Mcdonalds used a hot water reset for their coffee, they should have forced the outside air temperature to 35 degrees.:D

[DeltaT]

Hmmmm.......if Mcdonalds used a hot water reset for their coffee, they should have forced the outside air temperature to 35 degrees.:D

Now we gotta switch this over to the controls section! :D:D

[Tool-Slinger]

OMG it is just a cup of coffee, spill it and be dang the operating temp.

Only a wuss of the highest order would consider suing over such an idiotic concept.


BABIES! "my coffee is too hot, my ice-cream is too cold, my diaper is too wet" Good God, I had more self-reliance and independence at age 10 than these law-suit monkeys will ever attain. Ship them to Kenya, Get them out of our courts, out of our lives, and out of our pockets. Retards.

[meoberry]

I didn't say I didn't understand insurance costs. I don't need COBRA or employer payments explained to me. I did state that insurance companies with their 'reasonable and customary' are in a place they shouldn't be too.

Doctors that do 'wrong' should be punished. Should they have to carry multimillion dollar policies so people can sue them for anything and everything though? NO. Constantly on tv you see the 'class action' suits where 'you may be eligible'. Yeah, those are really helping. What about the people that sue McDonald's because their coffee was too hot and they burned their whatever on it? People that misuse anything and then sue the manufacturer when they injury themselves? All bullcrap that is turning our country into a litigious cesspool. The cost of healthcare continues to rise because people don't think they are responsible for themselves anymore. They think insurance is a right and running to the doctor for every sniffle is the way to go. Hang nail? Better get that looked at. Pimple? Better see the dermatologist. Oh, and this is all covered under my insurance right?? :(
If you think the only lawsuits that are brought against healthcare providers/institutions are on a 'paid if won basis' I'd like to see your proof. Just isn't so. And, if you think a lawyer won't take a case unless they see merit then you don't know enough lawyers. There are many out there that will try their damndest to win the case (and get a % of the proceeds) regardless of the circumstances or merit--after all, someone is responsible, right?

Yeah! And from experience I can tell you that for the right price they will sell you out to the company or in my case to the county you are suing.:mad:

Like I have said before you only get as much justice as you can afford to pay for.:mad:

[coolperfect]

The good one was the time we had the mad cow scare MCD stock took a hit I bought guess what it went rite up. Mcd is a good stock and many people panic and sell on the end of the months same store sales number They dont understand resturant business is choppy like HVAC.The stock always goes up later

[mrs reb77]

I totally disagree with the McDonald's coffee suit.

Here's why.

It's coffee. You order it. You know it's hot. Don't stick it between your damned legs!

DUH!!!

[mrs reb77]

When the auto mfgr's designed cars that would blow up I guess that was ok too.
When coal miners were exposed to horrible conditions I guess that was ok too.
When navy personnel were exposed to asbestos that is ok TOO.

Get the point..........sometimes we the people need protection and people expect the GOVERNMENT to do that for us ?....eh....maybe sometimes lawsuits are helpfull. Agreed ?

I'm not aware of any mfgrs designing cars that would blow up. Are you talking about Fiero's and midengine fires or pickups with gas tanks that when hit just right on camera by a speeding object would blow up?

There are a lot of things in this world that we think are okay and then turn out not to be. Is that always on purpose? I don't think so. Should things be regulated? To a certain extent, yes.
But, I'm by no means weak or stupid and I'm getting really tired of trying to open my aspirin container. And the bleach bottle. And lighting the charcoal with a lighter while holding down the 'safety'.
All these things designed to protect children. When I always thought that's what parents were for.

[DeltaT]

I totally disagree with the McDonald's coffee suit.

Here's why.

It's coffee. You order it. You know it's hot. Don't stick it between your damned legs!

DUH!!!

I don't have a point for or against here law suite cause people got to do what they got to do. But finding out the exact details and seeing her pictures sure took out the emotions of what I thought this case was about. Then I understood what there was a basis for wrong doing on McDonalds end.

You should see the pictures of her leg and you might have a different take. She didn't stick the coffee between her legs. It got spilt on her somehow.

After being in real estate for so many years I was always amazed on how the general public would talk about how bad attorneys were..until they needed on cause they thought they were done a misdeed..then they sued for all the reason they said were previously foolish.

I just think that all on here that said this was a wasted law suite would probably sue if it happened to them or their family based on the fact I've seen it so many times.

Not right or wrong...just is that way. Folks got to make their own judgements at the time and under the conditions they find themselfs in.

Setting aside the emotional side of the sound of this law suite, I believe she definetly should have sued based on the entire factualy background.

[forged alloy]

I don't have a point for or against here law suite cause people got to do what they got to do. But finding out the exact details and seeing her pictures sure took out the emotions of what I thought this case was about. Then I understood what there was a basis for wrong doing on McDonalds end.

You should see the pictures of her leg and you might have a different take. She didn't stick the coffee between her legs. It got spilt on her somehow.

After being in real estate for so many years I was always amazed on how the general public would talk about how bad attorneys were..until they needed on cause they thought they were done a misdeed..then they sued for all the reason they said were previously foolish.

I just think that all on here that said this was a wasted law suite would probably sue if it happened to them or their family based on the fact I've seen it so many times.

Not right or wrong...just is that way. Folks got to make their own judgements at the time and under the conditions they find themselfs in.

Setting aside the emotional side of the sound of this law suite, I believe she definetly should have sued based on the entire factualy background.

This particular case is pointed too often, and there was more too it then a headline. From what I remember the cup the attendant used was not meant for hot drinks - this was a big cause of the spillage, and she was scalded bad.

There are plenty enough other ridiculous lawsuits that can be pointed too that the underlying theme bears legitimacy. Lawyers oftentimes will seek these things out and file motions for purposes mainly to do with greed then some sort of societal moral issue. Were it not for the ulterior motives of the law firms, many such cases would not have been filed.

Look no further then the majority of class action lawsuits.

[mrs reb77]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants
She placed the coffee cup between her knees and pulled the far side of the lid toward her to remove it. In the process, she spilled the entire cup of coffee on her lap

[mrs reb77]

If you order hot coffee and don't get coffee that is hot, do you complain? If you order hot coffee you expect hot coffee. 120° or 180°, neither is something you should be holding between your legs!

[mrs reb77]

I just got a paper cut. I didn't see any warning printed on the paper warning me that this could happen.
Who can I sue? Who's responsible for this? I'm gonna need a band aid! :eek:

[DeltaT]

I just got a paper cut. I didn't see any warning printed on the paper warning me that this could happen.
Who can I sue? Who's responsible for this? I'm gonna need a band aid! :eek:

Hummmmmm! Well, I'm not a real attorney but I can play one. You should sue McDonalds for negligence in the fact that when they sold their first hamburger (I see a law suite for cows here!) they started to process of serving other things such as coffee, which led to this posting, which led to you fiddling uncontrollably through dealing with the mental frustration and cruelty of the trama they have inflicted on you so that your focus was on the pain and suffering and not the extremely dangerous weapon that was forced upon by modern society...namely, a piece of paper.

Then I'd go after the poster of this subject because he or she developed an ongoing mental picture for all of us to suffer through. I see a class action law suite working here because I'm starting to feel the pain and suffering of having to live through this myself.

I wonder if I can get lost wages too!

So anyway, my fee is $39.95 up front!

[mrs reb77]

I'm gonna need cleaning fees now, got blood on the keyboard. If I have to smell that cleaning fluid and it affects my sinuses we're going to have to add pain and suffering. Then my husband is going to have to hear about it so add some in for peripheral damages.

Paper should be outlawed is what needs to happen. That stuff is purely dangerous and nobody is doing anything about it!! :eek:

[bootlen]

I don't have a point for or against here law suite cause people got to do what they got to do. But finding out the exact details and seeing her pictures sure took out the emotions of what I thought this case was about. Then I understood what there was a basis for wrong doing on McDonalds end.

You should see the pictures of her leg and you might have a different take. She didn't stick the coffee between her legs. It got spilt on her somehow.

After being in real estate for so many years I was always amazed on how the general public would talk about how bad attorneys were..until they needed on cause they thought they were done a misdeed..then they sued for all the reason they said were previously foolish.

I just think that all on here that said this was a wasted law suite would probably sue if it happened to them or their family based on the fact I've seen it so many times.

Not right or wrong...just is that way. Folks got to make their own judgements at the time and under the conditions they find themselfs in.

Setting aside the emotional side of the sound of this law suite, I believe she definetly should have sued based on the entire factualy background.

Coffee, or any liquid for that matter, is not meant to be absorbed through the crotch. If she was stupid enough to allow it to get there, regardless of the temperature, she had a lesson to learn. Some judges don't want people learning lessons.

[DeltaT]

Coffee, or any liquid for that matter, is not meant to be absorbed through the crotch.

I'm sure glad you guys/gals can't see my van seat! I suppose I'm the only one too!

[meoberry]

I'm not aware of any mfgrs designing cars that would blow up. Are you talking about Fiero's and midengine fires or pickups with gas tanks that when hit just right on camera by a speeding object would blow up?

There are a lot of things in this world that we think are okay and then turn out not to be. Is that always on purpose? I don't think so. Should things be regulated? To a certain extent, yes.
But, I'm by no means weak or stupid and I'm getting really tired of trying to open my aspirin container. And the bleach bottle. And lighting the charcoal with a lighter while holding down the 'safety'.
All these things designed to protect children. When I always thought that's what parents were for.

Problem is nowadays. The children are left home to raise themselves. Even if the parents are at home the tv,video games or the computer are raising the kids.

Things where a little different when I was coming up. I did not dare talk back to any adult, play with fire,lie,cheat or steal.
Because if I did. Dad would say: Son you know the consiquences. Now bend over. I did not know what hurt worse because dad would lay it on so you did not forget or the tears in his eyes every time he had to do it.

I remember every time. Child abuse they call it now days. But I have never been to jail. And I do believe it made a better man out of me.

I have seen children 8-17 cuss out teachers, or anybody else that got in their way. Steal and their parents would cover up for them. Lie and the parents would believe them over any adult. I actually had a 5 year old at a customer's house run up and bite me on the leg. I grabbed her by the head of the hair and pulled her off and had the parents throw me out and call my boss and told him that I attacked their child. I snatched my pants down and showed him the teeth marks on my thigh. He told me I should have slapped the girl down. He called them back and asked if their girl had bit his service man. They said yes but she had been given TIME OUT for that and I should not touched their little girl.

What should have done let her draw blood.

The problem is no disipline. You can tell when you go into a home the difference between children that have TIME OUT and a BELT. Some run around and are screamed at and others calm right down with a look.;)

[printer2]

Speaking of being hot between the knees...

Today I got a call complaining one floor was hot. The temperature was 22C, I suggested (lightheartedly) that it might be only the woman that was complaining who was hot. She replied that it was not only her another woman on the floor had a fan under her desk blowing at her to keep her cool.

As much as I wanted to reply to her the first thing that came into my mind I decided HR would prefer I let that one slip away.

[coolperfect]

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/bronx/2009/07/30/2009-07-30_mcdonalds_franchise_in_hot_water_with_suit.html

[JRINJAX]

Two great examples recently:
While one of our Forklifts was unloading a semi, a young friend [not an employee] of our company's Lawn Service was walking back wards using a leaf blower with IPOD earphones in his ears. Our forklift operator looked behind him to make sure the area was clear and then began backing out the load off of the semi. The Fork lift has a flashing strobe and a very loud movement horn on it but the young man did not hear/paid no attention and walked over until he was behind the forklift. The rear wheels on the FL rolled down the side of his foot and gave him a bruise that he claimed kept him from working. The Hold-Harmless clause in the Lawn Services contract to us did not apply to the "non-employee".
He tried a case-for-percentage Lawyer who eventually dropped the case after the Depositions from our people and the Truck Driver. About a year after that he found another hungry Lawyer and started the whole thing over again which wasted a great deal of our time. He may try again someday.

Example #2:
We did an equipment-only [no duct] change out in a large auto dealership. Several weeks later we received a call from them saying an employee [salesman] claimed an injury from a falling grille. We sent a Duct department supervisor to the site who found that the removable center to a TMS type tiered grille had fallen out of a hallway area several rooms [70'] away from where we were working. The employee had no visible injuries and no one witnessed it falling but a dealership employee did see him snag the grill while carrying out some helium balloons.

Even though we had no involvement, we still had to send all of our personnel who ever went to the site for depositions to a case-for-percentage Lawyer.
They also involved the Electricians, Plumbers, Firesprinkler Techs and the Network/Telephone Techs.

The employee was later fired by the dealership and later refiled another lawsuit requiring more Depositions which eventually ended with the Dealership's Electricians giving him some settlement.

[mrs reb77]

I stopped at Hardee's this morning and got a cup of coffee. They gave me a cup without a lid. The coffee was hot. I sipped it. I think I burned the roof of my mouth and my tongue. Who is responsible for this!!??? :eek::rolleyes: