Suicide

[hvac_superman]

Why would a 15 year old child decide to end her life? I just got a call that my friends daughter killed herself. Talk about a sad day. Permanent solution to a temporary problem. He is going to be a basket case. I'm at a loss for words.

[k-fridge]

Happens fairly often actually. Kids under societal pressures, a boyfriend/girlfriend broke up with them, problems with parents, school problems, lots of things.

So very tragic, as a parent myself I can't imagine the pain the family is experiencing. I hope their last time together wasn't an unpleasant one.

[hvac_superman]

Your right K all the things you mentioned were pretty much going on with her. I just can't believe it, hasen't sunk in yet.

[Some Dude]

Young people today have an unbelievable burden that no other generation has ever had to face.
There is very little balance or quality in their world. Things that may seem insurmountable to them may not even affect someone with more experience.
T.V,. the internet, and our plastic society do not help.
I could not imagine ever outliving my children, or never having the answer to the question,,,,,why.

[wolfstrike]

people at that age are ruthlessly cruel, they live in the height of the false TV world, and they don't have the maturity to deal with serious problems.
the world is a very small place for them


teenagers have to deal with the ugliness of society more than adults do

[DeltaT]

It's because we, as adults and parents have not taken the proper measurers to keep our kids safe from the decisions of being an adult and needing to make adult decisions by children.

Even in elementary schools across the nation children are now and have been faced with very serious circumstances and experiences such as sex, drugs, violence, lack of positive leadership, direction, disicipline, the ability to fail and be supported in rising up again, influence of subjects very detrimental to the human soul such as sexual situations and language in their schools, movies and TV. This doesn't even take into consideration the violence shown and promoted on video games.

Hardly any child of any age anymore can feel truly safe with our public school systems except for some of the wealthy neighborhoods. And that is not necessarily true anymore.

When my daughter was in high school and I attempted to interceed in protecting her from the negative atmosphere of her high tech school high school for excelled students I was told that I had no right to input in any of the schools policies. As a matter of fact the principals pretty well told me to take a hike because they were in charge.

I remember my daughter coming home upset from school because of the constant police raids of the students lockers where many knives, drugs and guns were found from time to time.

Any student in that atmospere could not have a feeling of safety or could focus on being a kid and studying as best they could. Keep in mind, she was in one of the best high schools in the Washington DC/Maryland area.

Just imagine what the schools were and are like that were not for students that had a higher than average desire to excel.

Most schools throughout the nation are nightmares for creating a stabilized atmosphere of safety, learning and being in an atmosphere where they can deal with subjects and experience of their particular ages so that a child can grow in a healthy manner.

Go to your own kids schools and spend some time. Listen to the language in the halls. Look at the circumstances young ladies are forced to deal with now. See how the teachers and administrators look the other way because of their fears of law suites, etc.

No one is in charge anymore. And it's been that way for years. The kids are acting out their frustrations and suicide has become one of their answers to an unsolvable problem that they live daily.

I don't see it getting any better either especially with the socialistic venues that are now being placed on all of us Americans.

[Hugh B]

Those who commit suicide make a grand assumption. They assume that death is an escape, an end to their problems. They don't stop to consider that that may not be the case at all. What awaits them on the other side may be far worse than what they are running from.

Unlike this present life there is no changing their mind and returning to what they left. This should make us all give some serious thought to what life is about, why we are here, is there a purpose to our existence and what is it we are supposed to be doing with this life. And, of course what does await us on the other side? Is there a God, is he personal? Does he care?

Life is short, death is everlasting.

[Pneuma]

Sorry to hear about your friends daughter. Someone said it's good to try and keep your kids in different circles of friends, especially girls, in case there is some falling out, they have some other place to go. Like school friends, church friends, and maybe sports friends. Not sure how much influence you can have on that, my girl is just five, but I'm going to try that. Also kids are indivduals and you can't always assume you can control everything they do and so you can't always blame yourself. So anyway that's really sad to hear, sorry for your friend, that's going to be rough.

[bootlen]

Spot on, DeltaT. Too much crap is thrown in their faces and they have to deal with it with minds not prepared to do so.

[hvac_superman]

Delta I agree, you are right on the money. Her alcoholic mother sure didn't give her any proper guidence. When I was growing up we had some of the same pressures and problems, maybe not as bad as the kids have it today. My parents didn't let us get off course very far without correction. If I had a good ass kickin coming I got it. If I swore or used foul language you learned what soap tasted like. I didn't swear in fromt of my parents. No body wants to raise their children now a day. They park them, in front of the tv and video games raise them.

[the mojo]

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080825/SPECIAL01/80825001/1026&appSession=598179068264508

If you want to see bad schools and their direct effect on kids and the total failure of a education system based on poor judgement,very poor teaching,and a total lack of any type of guidance where parents or should I say single parent up bring look no further than the DPS system.

These test scores at all of these schools are at the very bottom of the heap for the entire country.

[shaygetz]

I'm sorry for your friend's loss. Spot on, DeltaT and Hugh B, the chickens of moralistic freewheeling and consequence free decisions are coming home to roost in a big way. How can a society freely kill its unborn, give 30 days in jail to a drunken man who murdered with his car, and talk about euthanasia like it's a viable medical alternative not produce the mindset that leads to this act?

I know it appears cold hearted to speak in such a way in light of this tragedy but, as one who spent a large part of his late 20s in that trap and having lost two friends to it as well, I can say that the cure requires some serious open heart surgery before the recovery starts. Suicide is the ultimate expression of selfishness and its only victims are those who are left behind to wonder "Why?".

[RoBoTeq]

I can't disagree with any and agree with most thoughts so far posted. The pressures of society that is aimed directly at our youth during their most vulnerable time of life is bad enough. Add to this that our youth are not being giving the guidance that is needed but rather are being told over and over that they have an infinite number of choices.

Sometimes what should be regular daily events become over burdening to me. I'm talking about simple things like having to choose a salad dressing among hundreds of choices offered now days. Choices are more devastating to a young person going through puberty. Mental overload, grief and embarrassment from making what is perceived to be wrong choices etc. just cause a young person to want to shut it all down.

Our youth needs to be guided, and they need to be guided by those who love them. Right now, too many of our youth are being guided by media and government entities, both of which create a massive amount of choice decisions for our youth.

What to do? As parents we need to give our children guidance by setting out a set pattern to their lives from what clothes they will wear to who they can hang around with. Time tables must be adhered to. Some sort of structure must be implemented. As the youth progresses into wanting something other then what has been structured for them, then it is time to discuss an option change between the youth and a responsible parent. This provides structure without killing a youth's ability to control their own life's choices without being over burdened with decission making.

Once a structured life has been set for a young person, altering that structure after a rational discussion about why it should be altered can be achieved with a minimum impact on the youths phsychy.

[jayhawker]

Kids need guidance, structure , love and discipline. Alot of parents I know won't tell their kids "no" and try to be their best friend. This creates a child with a false expectation of what the world has in store for them and will leave them disappointed. If a child sees its parents obsessed with material objects and other percieved status items they will feel the same need. Time is the most valuable thing you can give your kids. Any suicide leave far more victims than it takes. I am truly sorry for the girls decison to take her life and the after effects it will leave on the people that knew her. I had a friend in grade school and Jr. high ,his dad was the football coach for the local football club.
Real hard guy, he would have us running around saying crazy things like " lets kill the other team " in practice. Losing for this guy wasn't an option. That group of kids tied the first game in 5th grade and didn't lose or tie another game till the last game in 9th grade, and you would have thought the world ended. He went to a different high school and I lost touch with him. I saw him the day before he took his life at a mall, looked like he was just wandering around. I have always regreted not talking to him, I heard that it happened because his dad was upset that he didn't play college football and that he had dropped out of college. I think about it all the time and it still makes me sad and that was 30 years ago.

[hvac_superman]

Well I heard from my friend last night. You want to talk about a tough call to make. Poor guy is just a train wreck. He asked me if I would be a pallbearer at the funeral. This is going to be one of the toughest funerals I have ever attended. To this point I don't think I have attended a funeral for anyone under 50.

Life is so short and precious. I wish kids realized that their troubles are only temporary and any problem can be handled and rectified.

I couldn't agree more with you guys comments about how children are raised. The thought of letting children raise themselves with all the distractions now days like tv, internet and predators and all is really scary.

Im really having a hard time thinking I could have done something more. I was at his house the day before and no one was home except her. I called out in the house and got no answer. I know she was in her room but she didn't answer. I just went outside and waited for my friend to get home. I really wish I would have went upstairs and talked to her. Problem is I have conditioned myself to never put myself in a situation of suspision if that makes sense. Troubled teen, 15 years old, not my place to be in her room when nobody is home. I really wish I would have took that risk now.

[whec720]

By the sounds of it, superman, you are truly a good friend. Just keep being there for support. How could anyone imagine this happening? You don't, so try not to be so hard on yourself. Easier said than done, I know.

[glennac]

It's because we, as adults and parents have not taken the proper measurers to keep our kids safe from the decisions of being an adult and needing to make adult decisions by children.

Even in elementary schools across the nation children are now and have been faced with very serious circumstances and experiences such as sex, drugs, violence, lack of positive leadership, direction, disicipline, the ability to fail and be supported in rising up again, influence of subjects very detrimental to the human soul such as sexual situations and language in their schools, movies and TV. This doesn't even take into consideration the violence shown and promoted on video games.

Hardly any child of any age anymore can feel truly safe with our public school systems except for some of the wealthy neighborhoods. And that is not necessarily true anymore.

When my daughter was in high school and I attempted to interceed in protecting her from the negative atmosphere of her high tech school high school for excelled students I was told that I had no right to input in any of the schools policies. As a matter of fact the principals pretty well told me to take a hike because they were in charge.

I remember my daughter coming home upset from school because of the constant police raids of the students lockers where many knives, drugs and guns were found from time to time.

Any student in that atmospere could not have a feeling of safety or could focus on being a kid and studying as best they could. Keep in mind, she was in one of the best high schools in the Washington DC/Maryland area.

Just imagine what the schools were and are like that were not for students that had a higher than average desire to excel.

Most schools throughout the nation are nightmares for creating a stabilized atmosphere of safety, learning and being in an atmosphere where they can deal with subjects and experience of their particular ages so that a child can grow in a healthy manner.

Go to your own kids schools and spend some time. Listen to the language in the halls. Look at the circumstances young ladies are forced to deal with now. See how the teachers and administrators look the other way because of their fears of law suites, etc.

No one is in charge anymore. And it's been that way for years. The kids are acting out their frustrations and suicide has become one of their answers to an unsolvable problem that they live daily.

I don't see it getting any better either especially with the socialistic venues that are now being placed on all of us Americans.

You got it T. And let's not forget zero tolerance used in public schools which is designed to crush and destroy all sense of fairness, justice and honesty in life and also destroys our kids spirit and contributes to sucide in my opinion.

[DeltaT]

Superman
There's nothing you could have done or could do except be a friend to the family. Everyone needs a friend like you. Just being there for the family will be what they need now. Believe me I know.

The secondary trama of this is that her furneral will be attended by many of her friends and others. Within that group will be others of the same frame of mind just one step away from taking their own lives.

See, some of these students will learn from her funeral that she did solve her problem of pain as she is no longer in pain....and that there really is no hope at all. It's a warped way of understanding life but that is the way their life is and has been in their individual and isolated attempts to understand life. For their point of view there is no one there for them so they have to figure this out for themselves, which is impossible at their early stages of life.

Adult suicide is different from a childs suicide. Adults have at least had the chance to understand their mental and physical state based on comparasion of their lives history as a child through the process of becoming an adult, which can allow them to reach out for help because of their newly found understandings in life and their placement in it.

Plus others who are around them, such as co-employees, church members, club members, neighbors, can also recognize some of the signs, typically misconduct, and attempt to help them or guide them in a positive and understanding direction.

Children and teenages do not have that benefit except through immediate family, which is typically one of the main problems, and/or through their friends and/or school system, also both containing and producing the same negative atmosphere that fertilizes the ground that these kids live in that produce the internal conflict resulting in the lack of self worth.

It's a totally losing situation for most of these kids based on todays and the past status of the American way of life centered on appearance in place of substance.

[hvac_superman]

Thank you guys for all the help and kind words. Delta what you say makes a great deal of sense.

I got a call yesterday while prepairing for my annual 4th party from him that he needed to talk. I dropped what I was doing and went over and had a good long cry with him. Then we cleaned up to try to start his long road to closure. Nobody should ever have to do this let me tell you. The real victims are everyone left behind.

[RoBoTeq]

Thank you guys for all the help and kind words. Delta what you say makes a great deal of sense.

I got a call yesterday while prepairing for my annual 4th party from him that he needed to talk. I dropped what I was doing and went over and had a good long cry with him. Then we cleaned up to try to start his long road to closure. Nobody should ever have to do this let me tell you. The real victims are everyone left behind.
When a friend of mine lost his 17 year old daughter to a drunk driver, I went to the funeral and then avoided him. Being around my friend forced me to think about losing my son, and I could not bear to think those thoughts. I have since reconciled with my friend for my shortcomings. Be a better person then I was hvac_superman. Do what friends are supposed to do. I have always regretted my not being able to be a better friend to someone with such a loss.

[hvac_superman]

When a friend of mine lost his 17 year old daughter to a drunk driver, I went to the funeral and then avoided him. Being around my friend forced me to think about losing my son, and I could not bear to think those thoughts. I have since reconciled with my friend for my shortcomings. Be a better person then I was hvac_superman. Do what friends are supposed to do. I have always regretted my not being able to be a better friend to someone with such a loss.

Robo, I am there day and night no matter what and he knows that too. Sorry to hear you had to go through losing a child. That has to be a hole inside that never heals, hang tough brother.

[shaygetz]

Problem is I have conditioned myself to never put myself in a situation of suspision if that makes sense. Troubled teen, 15 years old, not my place to be in her room when nobody is home. I really wish I would have took that risk now.

A position I find myself in too many times on my job---I even have a two by two rule if there is the slightest hint of potential trouble---our world is one of guilty until proven innocent now.

You be the friend you've always been...now more than ever...and don't beat yourself over not reaching out, it goes nowhere and sadly, is one of the fruits of what she did.

[RoBoTeq]

Robo, I am there day and night no matter what and he knows that too. Sorry to hear you had to go through losing a child. That has to be a hole inside that never heals, hang tough brother.
I am sorry. I did not post properly what my situation was. I did not lose a child. It was just "thinking" about losing my son that was too much for me to handle. If I had actually lost a child, I wouldn't feel so badly about myself. I neglected my friends needs strictly based on my not being able to handle even thinking about what he was going through.

Sorry for that misunderstanding. I am glad to hear that others are able to be better friends then I was.

[Hugh B]

Suicide

Our school system promotes the false worldview of evolution as promoted by Darwin. It is a humanistic godless philosophy which assumes we are not the product of chance and chaos, a mere accident. It teaches that humans are simply animals of a higher level but animals never-the-less.

If Darwinism is true, then there is no purpose or meaning to life, there is no morality, there's no qualitative difference between humans and animals, there's no life after death, and there's no purpose to human history.

So, when life becomes difficult suicide seems like a way out, a viable alternative to suffering, strife and pain. Indoctrination in Darwinian evolution is a religious philosophy leading one to believe that there is no hereafter.

Now, don't tell me that it doesn't really matter if people believe we evolved or not?

[jmac00]

Personally I think a child's suicide is more about family than anything else.

If a child has strong family ties, if the parents are there for the child every second of every day, no matter what else happens in the child's life, they can go home and talk to there parents on ANY SUBJECT without regard for repercussions, there is nothing a child can't handle in life.

EVERYONE I grew up with had those family ties and it boiled over from family to family. If I was at a friends house and I needed to talk to "a parent" I could talk to a friends mom or dad.

we actually called our friends parents "mom & dad", when I grew up, we all had 4 or 5 "parents" and we called all our friends parent Mom or Dad. It was NEVER Mr {so-n-so} or Mrs {so-n-so} it was always mom or dad.

I'm very sorry to hear of this very sad lose:(

[coolwhip]

I blame the liberal disease!

[geerair]

Suicide

Our school system promotes the false worldview of evolution as promoted by Darwin. It is a humanistic godless philosophy which assumes we are not the product of chance and chaos, a mere accident. It teaches that humans are simply animals of a higher level but animals never-the-less.

If Darwinism is true, then there is no purpose or meaning to life, there is no morality, there's no qualitative difference between humans and animals, there's no life after death, and there's no purpose to human history.

So, when life becomes difficult suicide seems like a way out, a viable alternative to suffering, strife and pain. Indoctrination in Darwinian evolution is a religious philosophy leading one to believe that there is no hereafter.

Now, don't tell me that it doesn't really matter if people believe we evolved or not?Well, at least the last statement of that post is correct.

Congrats!!!!!!!

[RoBoTeq]

I blame the liberal disease!
I don't see suicide being an exclusive liberal or conservative result. There are factions of an ultr-liberal attitude that could cause suicidal thoughts in some as well as there are extreme conservative attitudes that could cause suicidal thoughts.

A person, especially a teen, who is given too much choice and is expected to have to make all decisions without parental or other responsible adult guidance may result in a teens wanting to not have to think about having to make all of those choices for fear that they may be wrong or perceived as being wrong by their peers. However, a teen who's life is so structured by an extreme conservative attitude may also feel that they need to escape an unacceptable predestined life.

Balance is a word that others have used here and I believe that balance is a good word for this issue. A teen should have a certain amount of structure that is able to be adjusted and adapted to meet that teens particular wants and needs.

[Some Dude]

I blame Mc donalds , too many chemicals in everything today.
And Ho ho's

A few years ago my sons mother decided he needed some medication.
They put the kid on welbutrin
2 weeks later i find a noose in the garage.
I think im still in shock
No more welbutrin
I was working with him and couldnt tell anything was that bad.
No one knows what the medication will do to each person,there are even labels on the bottles to stop if your feeling suicidal,as if?
Life is hard on our younger people.

[k-fridge]

I blame Mc donalds , too many chemicals in everything today.
And Ho ho's

A few years ago my sons mother decided he needed some medication.
They put the kid on welbutrin
2 weeks later i find a noose in the garage.
I think im still in shock
No more welbutrin
I was working with him and couldnt tell anything was that bad.
No one knows what the medication will do to each person,there are even labels on the bottles to stop if your feeling suicidal,as if?
Life is hard on our younger people.
Psychiatric drugs are vastly over-prescribed to kids and adults. Doctors give that crap out like candy.

[Hugh B]

When our children are told over and over again that nothing exists but raw matter, atoms and molecules that over eons of time have self-organized by a cosmic accident what would we expect them to conclude?

The only meaning to life is survival and reproduction. Life's highest goal is to pass on one's genes as after death we simply cease to exist. There is no meaning to life except that that you give to it yourself.

This philosophic materialism is a nihilistic view of life. Therefore, if things are not working out well then just end it. Such a view is the natural and logical outcome of what is being inculcated in our classrooms and society daily.

If I am incorrect here then please someone correct me by telling me what the purpose of life is when one ascribes to philosophic materialism. There is nothing but meaninglessness since we just happened by a random act of chance.

[Some Dude]

When our children are told over and over again that nothing exists but raw matter, atoms and molecules that over eons of time have self-organized by a cosmic accident what would we expect them to conclude?

The only meaning to life is survival and reproduction. Life's highest goal is to pass on one's genes as after death we simply cease to exist. There is no meaning to life except that that you give to it yourself.

This philosophic materialism is a nihilistic view of life. Therefore, if things are not working out well then just end it. Such a view is the natural and logical outcome of what is being inculcated in our classrooms and society daily.

If I am incorrect here then please someone correct me by telling me what the purpose of life is when one ascribes to philosophic materialism. There is nothing but meaninglessness since we just happened by a random act of chance.

Im sure thats part of the problem with some, then add on every problem we ever had as kids.
One huge problem is parents do not talk to their kids properly. Or dont talk to them at all.

[Hugh B]

Im sure thats part of the problem with some, then add on every problem we ever had as kids.
One huge problem is parents do not talk to their kids properly. Or dont talk to them at all.

I agree! Ya know one of the shooters at Columbine wore a shirt to school on the very day of the shooting which read "Survival of the fittest". In addition, he had a very interesting website that should have gotten his parents attention.

Where were his parents? Did they have any idea of what he was up to? Obviously he was a social Darwinist who figured there is or was no point to life and acted accordingly.

[k-fridge]

Where were his parents? Did they have any idea of what he was up to?

That's something we should be asking about half of the parents of school age kids these days.

When my daughter was in high school I was always flabbergasted when I would pick her up from school. Do parents even care that their kids are dressed like devil worshipers or call girls? My daughter was in the band and we never saw but maybe 20% or the parents turn out for games or events to support their kids. I can't tell you how many hungry kids I bought food for, and these were not poor people.

It just amazed me that parents didn't give enough of a damn to support their kids or at least teach them some standards. And I'm not talking about the hood, this was pretty nice middle-class area in the Bible belt.

And we wonder why our kids are screwed up.

[jmac00]

That's something we should be asking about half of the parents of school age kids these days.

When my daughter was in high school I was always flabbergasted when I would pick her up from school. Do parents even care that their kids are dressed like devil worshipers or call girls? My daughter was in the band and we never saw but maybe 20% or the parents turn out for games or events to support their kids. I can't tell you how many hungry kids I bought food for, and these were not poor people.

It just amazed me that parents didn't give enough of a damn to support their kids or at least teach them some standards. And I'm not talking about the hood, this was pretty nice middle-class area in the Bible belt.

And we wonder why our kids are screwed up.

Like I said Family is the key, a good solid family life will help a child through any traumatic situation

[Hugh B]

Like I said Family is the key, a good solid family life will help a child through any traumatic situation

Not just any family. A family that raises their children to realize that they are not just the accidental result of a random chance freak of a blindly operating universe.

But, instead the result of a caring, loving God who gives them purpose and value.

[jmac00]

Not just any family. A family that raises their children to realize that they are not just the accidental result of a random chance freak of a blindly operating universe.

But, instead the result of a caring, loving God who gives them purpose and value.

I'm not going to get into a religious debate, I stated my feelings. i was brought up in a circle of friends that is now going on 45 years, we still call each others parents mom & dad, even though a couple of parents have passed on, non-of us were very "religious"

BUT we all have the utmost respect for ALL OF OUR PARENTS. When it was time for dinner we went home and we had a FAMILY dinner, being late for dinner was NOT AN OPTION ( unless you were dead ;) ) we did things AS A FAMILY. the only thing we didn't do as a family was go camping (mom never liked sleeping on the ground) besides I'm pretty sure mom enjoyed a weekend without the boys around:D

it's all about family, SOMETHING THAT IS SORELY MISSING IN TODAYS SOCIETY

[RoBoTeq]

Psychiatric drugs are vastly over-prescribed to kids and adults. Doctors give that crap out like candy.
I agree 99%. I kept my boys from being medicated by the school system when they were growing up. I however have benefitted greatly from psychiatric medication and my youngest who has been recently diagnosed as being severely bi-polar is also doing well on meds.

The problem is when these meds become a cop out for proper in depth analysis. Sort of like us overcharging a system to cover up the low suction pressure of a system with a partially blocked evap coil.

[k-fridge]

I agree 99%. I kept my boys from being medicated by the school system when they were growing up. I however have benefitted greatly from psychiatric medication and my youngest who has been recently diagnosed as being severely bi-polar is also doing well on meds.

The problem is when these meds become a cop out for proper in depth analysis. Sort of like us overcharging a system to cover up the low suction pressure of a system with a partially blocked evap coil.

Oh they have their place, and can be a blessing to those who actually need them. My wife is one of those people. But so many people are given drugs as a band-aid instead of solving the actual problem. And too often, doctors don't take the time to find the dosage that is right for that particular person. When they first put my wife on anti-depressants they had her on 4 times the dosage she needed, and it almost git very bad.

[RoBoTeq]

Oh they have their place, and can be a blessing to those who actually need them. My wife is one of those people. But so many people are given drugs as a band-aid instead of solving the actual problem. And too often, doctors don't take the time to find the dosage that is right for that particular person. When they first put my wife on anti-depressants they had her on 4 times the dosage she needed, and it almost git very bad.
I've gone from meds that pretty much turned me into a zombie to meds that made me very jumpy. Meds that worked for years didn't work later in life. Some of the new meds are very good at targeting what needs fixing without messing with other aspects of our systems.

Against my doctors wishes, I adjust how often I take my meds. Sometimes I can for weeks without them and have a decent amount of warning when I need to get back on them. It's all in being in tune with your emotions and how you are reacting to the world around you.

[geerair]

When our children are told over and over again that nothing exists but raw matter, atoms and molecules that over eons of time have self-organized by a cosmic accident what would we expect them to conclude?I would hope they would not be satisfied with such a simplistic view as you propose and seek out the more complete explanation that science and society provides.


The only meaning to life is survival and reproduction. Life's highest goal is to pass on one's genes as after death we simply cease to exist.That may be your uniformed opinion, no doubt born of your religious views rather than rational analysis, but none of the many Atheists I know limit the meaning or purpose of their lives to survival and reproduction.




There is no meaning to life except that that you give to it yourself. Absolutely correct.

Some consider that meaning to involve the emotional, but intellectually empty crutch of ancient tribal myths and supernatural beings. Others such as myself and my fellow atheists find meaning in the marvel and promise that is life.





This philosophic materialism is a nihilistic view of life. Therefore, if things are not working out well then just end it. Such a view is the natural and logical outcome of what is being inculcated in our classrooms and society daily.I know of no atheist, including myself, who have a nihilistic point of view.




If I am incorrect here then please someone correct me by telling me what the purpose of life is when one ascribes to philosophic materialism.To live life to the fullest because tomorrow you die. What could be more purposeful?





There is nothing but meaninglessness since we just happened by a random act of chance.My friend, that is a non-sequitur. Even a freshman philosophy student could recognize your lack of proper logic.




So, a question if I may. What has any of this to do with the science of biological evolution?

[geerair]

duplicate post deleted

[Hugh B]

I would hope they would not be satisfied with such a simplistic view as you propose and seek out the more complete explanation that science and society provides.

That may be your uniformed opinion, no doubt born of your religious views rather than rational analysis, but none of the many Atheists I know limit the meaning or purpose of their lives to survival and reproduction.



Absolutely correct.

Some consider that meaning to involve the emotional, but intellectually empty crutch of ancient tribal myths and supernatural beings. Others such as myself and my fellow atheists find meaning in the marvel and promise that is life.




I know of no atheist, including myself, who have a nihilistic point of view.



To live life to the fullest because tomorrow you die. What could be more purposeful?




My friend, that is a non-sequitur. Even a freshman philosophy student could recognize your lack of proper logic.




So, a question if I may. What has any of this to do with the science of biological evolution?


Geer,

You accuse me of being uninformed sir. You have no idea of my philosophical education, but I digress. As an atheist you would do well to get a grasp of the works of the major existential philosophers who have recognized and dealt with the very claims I posted on this thread. Sarte, Foucault, Althusser, Heidegger, Kierkegaard and others spent a great deal of time over the very issues that you accuse me as being simplistic in stating. I suggest you read your own atheistic philosophers before you make such a statement.

The German philosophic term for the materialistic problem of finding purpose in a chaotic, meaningless universe is called “angst”. The existential philosophers wrote entire books on what you call my simplistic view. They recognized the problem of finding purpose and like Kierkegaard realized there is no purpose that can be found in a purely materialistic godless universe therefore Kierkegaard claims one must impose a purpose or a meaning that works for you, that serves to function for you as there is no inherent purpose to life. Our present postmodern world is rife with this worldview.
You state that you know of no atheist including yourself who have the nihilistic point of view. You tell on yourself sir. You obviously have little understanding of the history of philosophy.

Please explain what purpose can one find in random chance? This is not a non-sequitur as you claim. This is one of the primary concerns with existentialism. That is, if you take the time to read a few works of the existentialists. If you can answer this one question then you are greater than the major thinkers I posted in my first paragraph above. So please do tell us how one finds meaning in random chance? If I throw the dice and up comes the random numbers five and two, what meaning, what purpose can you deduce from that?

[Hugh B]

Geer,

You asked what any of this has to do with the science of biological evolution? Again you show your lack of education. The idea of biological evolution has been widely applied to social, political, legal, educational and many, many other issues.

I suggest you do an internet search for Social Darwinism for example and see what you find. Our children have been raised to believe they are simply chemical combinations of atoms. Where do you think they got the idea that all we are is material substances without purpose? From biological evolution/Darwinism.

Geer, read up a little and then come back so we can actually discuss this issue with facts and an historical context.

[RoBoTeq]

Hugh B, meet geerair. Pretty much the definition of waste of space;)

You cannot argue with geer because geer will just deny whatever you use to prove him wrong and within a few posts he will bring the subject back up just as if you had never proved him wrong about it. You are in for extreme circular frustration if you decide to try to communicate with geer.

[geerair]

The German philosophic term for the materialistic problem of finding purpose in a chaotic, meaningless universe is called “angst”. The existential philosophers wrote entire books on what you call my simplistic view. They recognized the problem of finding purpose and like Kierkegaard realized there is no purpose that can be found in a purely materialistic godless universe therefore Kierkegaard claims one must impose a purpose or a meaning that works for you, that serves to function for you as there is no inherent purpose to life. I would agree with this.


You state that you know of no atheist including yourself who have the nihilistic point of view. You tell on yourself sir. You obviously have little understanding of the history of philosophy.Perhaps you have a different definition of nihilism than I do.






Please explain what purpose can one find in random chance? This is not a non-sequitur as you claim. This is one of the primary concerns with existentialism. That is, if you take the time to read a few works of the existentialists. If you can answer this one question then you are greater than the major thinkers I posted in my first paragraph above. So please do tell us how one finds meaning in random chance? If I throw the dice and up comes the random numbers five and two, what meaning, what purpose can you deduce from that?Ah, you then would be taking the philosophical theories literally. I agree that there is no purpose in random chance. But then that circumstance would apply to every human being. We do not come into this world with a set of philosophical beliefs embedded in our brains. Each person must find his own purpose and meaning in life. Numerous folks find that purpose and meaning in ancient tribal myths, others find it elsewhere. We atheists have purpose and meaning in our lives devoid of and often in spite of religious indoctrination.

You seem to imply that because one accepts that life is a "cosmic accident" as you call it, then one's life cannot have meaning or purpose.

I can assure you that myself and other Atheists with whom I am aquainted have meaning and purpose just pouring out our pores.

[k-fridge]

Gentlemen,

I think your discussion of things like evolution, atheism, and philosophical theories are good ones; but I think they would be better suited to a new thread instead of taking this topic of a teenager's suicide any further off track.

Perhaps one of you would start a new thread. :)

[geerair]

You asked what any of this has to do with the science of biological evolution? Again you show your lack of education. The idea of biological evolution has been widely applied to social, political, legal, educational and many, many other issues.I fail to see what changes in allele frequency, differential reproductive success or descent from a common ancestor have to do with social, legal and political issues.


I suggest you do an internet search for Social Darwinism for example and see what you find.No doubt various ideologies have appropriated and misapplied Darwin's theory but then that has happened throughout history. That is the cost of doing business. Even the bible has not been immune from this intellectual piracy.



Our children have been raised to believe they are simply chemical combinations of atoms. I think you mean educated rather than raised.

Do you deny that our bodies are composed of atoms?






Where do you think they got the idea that all we are is material substances without purpose? From biological evolution/Darwinism.You seem to be stuck on the idea that because material has no purpose, lives can have no purpose.


Your religious indoctriantion seems to leaking through here.







Geer, read up a little and then come back so we can actually discuss this issue with facts and an historical context.No thanks, my understanding of these issues is adequate to the purpose.

[geerair]

Gentlemen,

I think your discussion of things like evolution, atheism, and philosophical theories are good ones; but I think they would be better suited to a new thread instead of taking this topic of a teenager's suicide any further off track.

Perhaps one of you would start a new thread. :)I agree.

[k-fridge]

I agree.
Thanks geer

[geerair]

Thanks geerYour welcome.

Can you move the relevent posts to another thread?

[k-fridge]

Your welcome.

Can you move the relevent posts to another thread?
I don't think I have the capability to move individual posts, only entire threads.

They can stay, maybe you guys could just start back up in a new thread.

[gary_g]

August 13th will be the 1 year anniversary of a family friend who committed suicide in her own home. 25 years-young, married twice, and left a 1 year-old child. She was a very beautiful, model-looking type California girl. I often wondered if she would have been better off in life as a plain-Jane looking girl. Put a shotgun in her mouth and pulled the trigger. Her father and a brother found her. I'd be a basket case if I had walked into the room and saw that.

Mormon family. 5 kids along with several foster children.

She apparantly had "post-pardum syndrome" and was on several meds. Parents are thinking that it was the meds. No suicidal signs or tendancies.

I used to think that suicide was the ultimate cowardly act. A way out. A selfish solution to your problems. Not sure how I feel about suicide anymore, especially with meds involved.

My wife has bonded with her mother and they speak several times a week on the phone (they live on the West Coast, we are on the East Coast). When she leaves a telephone message on our answering machine, we can hear her daughter in her voice.

Take care HVAC-Superman.

[hvac_superman]

Just got back from the funeral, there was standing room only. My friend got up to say a poem and a few words he wrote for her. Another one of our friends and myself went up with him and stood by his side to help him get through it. I'm very proud of him and so sorry for him and his family, they have really been through a lot of grief. I still can't get over the support they got. There was a steady line of people from 4 until 7 and the line was still out the door. They had to start the service without everyone getting a chance to talk to the parents. Burried her by candle light, very sad.


Parents listen to your childrens words and don't be in such a hurry all the time. Take time to smell the roses with them. Don't be so quick to lose your temper, talk calmly to them all the while being an adult figure in their life. Thank you all for all your kind words and help through this hard time.