Is there any way to get the tax credit by doing this?

[teaysvalley]

I have a Rheem A/C unit only downstairs coupled with a Rheem 80% gas furnace. The evaporator coil has a leak that the tech said is not repairable. The units are original with the house built in 1996. I'm sure the furnace has many years of life left. What I want to do is change out the A/C only with a heat pump, such as Carrier's Performace 15 series with matching indoor coil and use the furnace only when it is say below 32 degrees. Do you think I have a chance of this qualifying for the tax credit without changing or modifying the furnace blower? I thought I read somewhere on here that you may have to change the furnace blower motor to a variable speed unit. If it was your house would you go ahead and change out the furnace at the same time even though there is some life left in it?

[gary_g]

A heat pump must meet 15 SEER and 12.5 EER and 8.5 HSPF to qualify. All 3 must be met.

How will you get a manufacturers' certificate that rates the efficiency of a new heat pump condenser and coil with your old furnace? You probably won't.

The only way to get the tax credit in your case is to replace the furnace, condenser, and indoor coil with a certified match.

Take care.

[motoguy128]

To qualify for hte tax credit, the air handler/furnace also has to match along with the indoor coil and outdoor unit.

You won't find a qualifying match without newer furnace or air handler with a high efficiency ECM motor.

Best ot chang eout hte furnace at the same time. 12 years old is marginal... but tax credit makes it worth while.


Make sure both get sized correctly... don't just let the contractor get hte same size you have now. Inprovements to insulation, new windows and other factors cna change the indoor loads. Many units aren't sized correctly but the original builder either.

Bigger is NOT better.

[sktn77a]

To get the tax rebate, someone must test and certify the system meets the requirements. Unfortunately, manufacturers are not going to test their current HP/coil combos with their discontinued furnaces/air handlers, let alone someone else's. So, no, you won't be able to get the necessary certification.

On the other hand, the chances of you getting audited on this are slim to zero. In the words of Dirty Harry, "Do you feel lucky?"

[gary_g]

On the other hand, the chances of you getting audited on this are slim to zero. In the words of Dirty Harry, "Do you feel lucky?"

My thoughts exactly.

[motoguy128]

My thoughts exactly.

Not a bad idea. Have the $1500 or whatever amount handy, then just act like you didn't understand the requirements. As long as you were getting a return anyway, or are under the penalty limit, and have no real intent of defrauding the IRS, then oh well.

It's tempting to do. Especially if you're like me and bought a "16 SEER" heat pump with a 15.25 SEER rating and 8.5 HSPF... but falls short by 0.5 EER. Hey...it met 2 out of 3... so maybe I can claim 2/3rds of the credit.

I'll see if my accountant next year is willing to roll the dice on it.

[gary_g]

Not a bad idea. Have the $1500 or whatever amount handy, then just act like you didn't understand the requirements. As long as you were getting a return anyway, or are under the penalty limit, and have no real intent of defrauding the IRS, then oh well.

It's tempting to do. Especially if you're like me and bought a "16 SEER" heat pump with a 15.25 SEER rating and 8.5 HSPF... but falls short by 0.5 EER. Hey...it met 2 out of 3... so maybe I can claim 2/3rds of the credit.

I'll see if my accountant next year is willing to roll the dice on it.

"Defraud" is such a harsh word. I prefer "stretching", or being "creative" :)

Is the IRS going to check the data plate of your system for model numbers? The AHRI cert for SEER/EER/HSPF? The invoice to see what you paid? No, no, and no.

[jerryd_2008]

"...

Is the IRS going to check the data plate of your system for model numbers? The AHRI cert for SEER/EER/HSPF? The invoice to see what you paid? No, no, and no.

Hmmm. Now what is the chance of a random IRS audit on this item?

[gary_g]

Question:


Hmmm. Now what is the chance of a random IRS audit on this item?

Answer:


On the other hand, the chances of you getting audited on this are slim to zero. In the words of Dirty Harry, "Do you feel lucky?"

Take care.

[motoguy128]

"Defraud" is such a harsh word. I prefer "stretching", or being "creative" :)

Is the IRS going to check the data plate of your system for model numbers? The AHRI cert for SEER/EER/HSPF? The invoice to see what you paid? No, no, and no.


I have a certificate... I simply "misunderstood" that it needed to also meet the EER rating. Even my HVAC installer was confused by this...as are most in my town. OS why shouldn't I be confused too?


OTOH... maybe I can have my installer swap out the XL16i and 4 ton coil with a qualifying XL15i with a qualifying 2.5 ton coil. If he'll swap it for less than 30% of the replacement cost.... I might be in a win-win situation. I'll get a system that overall functions better... and he has a slightly used XL16i heat pump and 4 ton coil he can sell cheap to someone.

But alas... I''m stuck with what I have now.

[jerryd_2008]

Question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd_2008 View Post
Hmmm. Now what is the chance of a random IRS audit on this item?

Answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sktn77a View Post
On the other hand, the chances of you getting audited on this are slim to zero. In the words of Dirty Harry, "Do you feel lucky?"

Take care.

Gary, I love people with a vibrant faith. But after recent interesting, though exhausting, discussions with both the Fed's and the State on various tax matters, my faith is weak. By the way, you are required to keep a copy of the manufacturer's cert which usually references the AHRI cert based on SEER, EER and HSPF.

PS: I am thinking about retaining sktn77a as my tax adviser, but can't find the "tax rebate" he refers to.

[jerryd_2008]

I have a certificate... I simply "misunderstood" that it needed to also meet the EER rating. Even my HVAC installer was confused by this...as are most in my town. OS why shouldn't I be confused too?...

Gary, for those that are still confused: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3

[teaysvalley]

A heat pump must meet 15 SEER and 12.5 EER and 8.5 HSPF to qualify. All 3 must be met.

How will you get a manufacturers' certificate that rates the efficiency of a new heat pump condenser and coil with your old furnace? You probably won't.

The only way to get the tax credit in your case is to replace the furnace, condenser, and indoor coil with a certified match.

Take care.

Even if it doesn't qualify for the tax credit, it should be much more efficient than straight gas for heat in my opinion. Is it even possible to use the blower in my old furrnace with the Performance 15 heat pump and matching coil assuming I stay with the same size? The current A/C only unit is 2 ton. Our heating season is about the same as the cooling season here. My upstairs unit is a 2.5 ton HP unit only with backup heat strips and seems to be working fine. If a new heat pump and coil will work with the old furnace and doesn't qualify for the tax credit, maybe I should just go with a basic 13 seer unit?

Thanks for your replies.

[gary_g]

Even if it doesn't qualify for the tax credit, it should be much more efficient than straight gas for heat in my opinion. Is it even possible to use the blower in my old furrnace with the Performance 15 heat pump and matching coil assuming I stay with the same size? The current A/C only unit is 2 ton. Our heating season is about the same as the cooling season here. My upstairs unit is a 2.5 ton HP unit only with backup heat strips and seems to be working fine. If a new heat pump and coil will work with the old furnace and doesn't qualify for the tax credit, maybe I should just go with a basic 13 seer unit?

Thanks for your replies.

Yes. You can install a heat pump coil in your existing gas furnace along with a matching heat pump condenser and have a dual fuel system. You will need a good thermostat like the Honeywell VisionPro 8000 Series w/external temperature probe to set-up when to switch over from the heat pump to natural gas.

Using your existing gas furnace, I would not go any higher than a 14 SEER condenser, because chances are you won't see any higher efficiencies.

What is your delivered price of electricity? Natural gas?

Take care.

[teaysvalley]

Yes. You can install a heat pump coil in your existing gas furnace along with a matching heat pump condenser and have a dual fuel system. You will need a good thermostat like the Honeywell VisionPro 8000 Series w/external temperature probe to set-up when to switch over from the heat pump to natural gas.

Using your existing gas furnace, I would not go any higher than a 14 SEER condenser, because chances are you won't see any higher efficiencies.

What is your delivered price of electricity? Natural gas?

Take care.


Electric - First 500 KWH 7.010 cents per KWH, 5.792 over 500 kwh
Gas - $13.282/MCF

[motoguy128]

Electric - First 500 KWH 7.010 cents per KWH, 5.792 over 500 kwh
Gas - $13.282/MCF


Is that the delivered price for each? Do you normally use over 500 kwh in hte winter with your furnace.

IF yes to both, then your eelctric is relatively cheap, and you gas is average...so a heat pump should work out well for you.

By compariosn, I pay about $11/MCF for gas, but my electricity is $0.11/kwh in the winter.

With your rates, off hand, you should be able to use the heat pump all the way down to the thermal balance point economically with a HSPF of 8.5 or better... and save 10-50% on energy costs over a 80% furnace depending on the outside temeprature.

Gary, do you agree?

[gary_g]

Electric - First 500 KWH 7.010 cents per KWH, 5.792 over 500 kwh
Gas - $13.282/MCF

Is that the delivered price of electricity or just the generation price? Delivered price = generation + transmission + distribution.

[teaysvalley]

Is that the delivered price of electricity or just the generation price? Delivered price = generation + transmission + distribution.

That's what APs website said for general residential rates in WV. There are some taxes too. I heard we have one of the lowest electric rates in the nation due to the proximity of coal power plants here. I'm only 10 miles from one. AP though just applied for a 45% increase in rates.

So, would a 14 seer HP be the best option to add onto my gas furnace? Can you recommend a model number and coil. I'd prefer to stay with a Rheem or Carrier. The tech that was out here early was pushing Payne. They look pretty cheap from the website photos.

Thanks!

[gary_g]

Your electric rates are dirt cheap.

Cost of 1 million btu's of heat:

Heat pump w/electricity at 7 cents/kw-hr delivered (worst case), C.O.P. = 3 at 35F ambient
(1,000,000 / 3414) x .07 / 3
= $6.83

Resistance electric heat
(1,000,000 / 3414) x .07
= $20.50

Natural gas at $1.33 per ccf, 80% efficient furnace
(1,000,000 / 103,000) x 1.33 / .8
= $16.14

The heat pump is less than half the cost of the gas furnace for the same 1 million btu's of heat.

However, that's only a 2 ton heat pump and is putting out about 20,000 btu at 35F which isn't much heat, but it's still cheaper than gas.

I would have a Rheem and Carrier rep (or other mfr) quote both a 13 SEER system and a 14 SEER system (to see the price difference).

Post the model numbers of both the indoor coils and condensers that are quoted to you.

Good luck.

[motoguy128]

Since most of your power is from coal...I'd add about 30% to the electric rate when running your calculations with some of the proposed taxes comming. Just a thought. Even with that, it's still cheap.