fed tax credits w/ 80% afue?

[darc]

would a trane xv80 variable speed 2 stage furnace 80% afue 80k btu w/ trane xl20i 1.5 seer condenser or heat pump, & aspen coil or trane coil qualify for full $1500 in tax credits?

would you recomme3nd a heat pump or a condenser with the xv80 for 1950 all brick house no insulation in the walls, double paned anderson windows, w/ total heating load of 62,627 & total cooling load of 28,968?

thanks

[motoguy128]

Only if the installed cost of the condenser and indoor coil cost at least $5000. You have to break-out the installed cost of the furnace.

As for the VS fan itself... hte feds are still tryign to figure out what to do. But right now, the A/C or heat pump portion of the system on it's own will qualify.

In northern VA,dual fuel is usually recommended with the more moderate winters... espeically if you're going with an 80% furnace.

It looks like you'll need a 3 Ton XL20i. I'd recommend getting the XC80 so you can use the communicating XL900 thermostat. It will give you better control of the system especially for deumidification.... as well as controlling a humidifier.

[gary_g]

Post exact model numbers of the condenser, matching coil, and furnace.

Someone will check the AHRI database for SEER, EER, and/or HSPF.

[jerryd_2008]

Only if the installed cost of the condenser and indoor coil cost at least $5000. You have to break-out the installed cost of the furnace.

As for the VS fan itself... hte feds are still tryign to figure out what to do. But right now, the A/C or heat pump portion of the system on it's own will qualify.

...

motoguy, since he is getting entire system with air handler, coil and heat pump, it is possible that the 80% will get an AHRI certification. I think beenthere has stated this in recent posts and my 80% York furnace with coil and HP have a certification.

[motoguy128]

motoguy, since he is getting entire system with air handler, coil and heat pump, it is possible that the 80% will get an AHRI certification. I think beenthere has stated this in recent posts and my 80% York furnace with coil and HP have a certification.

Yes, I know it has a AHRI rating... but... when it's a furnace, it's not longer considered an air handler. Therefore, you have to split the costs of the furnace and A/C system, because you cannot claim the tax credit for a 80% furnace... even if it functionally is an air handler for the A/C.

To get the full credit on the entire install, you would need to get either a conventional heat pump system with a fan coil, or a 95% furnace. Currently the feds do not have a method to split the blower protion out of a 80% furnace to claim part of it for the credit. the tax credit was not well concieved for thsoe that live in the middle of the country with more mild winter that don;t benefit from a 95% furnace and find the added cost and hassle of running the PVC pipes isn't worth it... and sometiems not possible.

[jerryd_2008]

Yes, I know it has a AHRI rating... but... when it's a furnace, it's not longer considered an air handler. Therefore, you have to split the costs of the furnace and A/C system, because you cannot claim the tax credit for a 80% furnace... even if it functionally is an air handler for the A/C.

To get the full credit on the entire install, you would need to get either a conventional heat pump system with a fan coil, or a 95% furnace. Currently the feds do not have a method to split the blower protion out of a 80% furnace to claim part of it for the credit. the tax credit was not well concieved for thsoe that live in the middle of the country with more mild winter that don;t benefit from a 95% furnace and find the added cost and hassle of running the PVC pipes isn't worth it... and sometiems not possible.

I am not that familiar with the models and what is AC and what is HP, but the previous posts mentioned duel fuel and HSPF which is a HP. Given that, beenthere states in a similar thread:

"An 80% VS furnace, qualifies for a tax credit on its VS blower.

Since the tax credit for dual fuel is based on the furnace its attached to. The furnace is part of the install. The furnace is the air handler. The same if you were getting a regular electric/electric heat pump.

The furnace is part of the heat pump install. "

Also I reference a specific York 80% VS furnace, and the furnace model is listed in the AHRI certification, with 18 SEER HP that has an AHRI certification # 3227959. As I understand, the AHRI certification is what is required for the Federal tax credit.

Seems you are putting some other interpretation on the process and need to resolve the difference with the moderator, beenthere.

[sktn77a]

Agree with motorguy. The 2007 credit for a high efficiency motor (not necessarily VS - but one that used less tha 2% of the furnace enegy use) was $50, so it won't likely be much more than that for 2009. You might be able to get the cost of the coil and condenser to base the 30% on, but not the furnace - that has to meet the 95% AFUE (even tough is is the "air handler" and part of the AHRI certification with number).

:(

[RyanHughes]

Yes, I know it has a AHRI rating... but... when it's a furnace, it's not longer considered an air handler. Therefore, you have to split the costs of the furnace and A/C system, because you cannot claim the tax credit for a 80% furnace... even if it functionally is an air handler for the A/C.


That's certainly not the way it's being done 99% of the time, whether it's the way it's supposed to be or not. From what I've observed, regardless of what you get installed, the total installed price is being used, hence making the $1500 tax credit obtainable in its entirety very easily for higher end systems. Some companies just don't break the price down like that. Whether it's the right way to do it, or not. So many questions about this tax credit. :rolleyes:

[BaldLoonie]

Chances are, and this is just info from someone in the know, there likely will be a fixed amount for a furnace with ECM that doesn't get 95%. Speculation says $250-300 but don't hold me to it, just a figure from an e-mail I saw. Now, if said furnace is with a qualifying outdoor unit, you should have your $1500. Again, chances are for the tax credit, the dealer will have to break down how much is qualifying outdoor unit and how much of the job is the 80% furnace. But if getting a 15 SEER HP or 16 SEER A/C, that should come out to at least $5000 and get you the full 30%.

[jerryd_2008]

Chances are, and this is just info from someone in the know, there likely will be a fixed amount for a furnace with ECM that doesn't get 95%. Speculation says $250-300 but don't hold me to it, just a figure from an e-mail I saw. Now, if said furnace is with a qualifying outdoor unit, you should have your $1500. Again, chances are for the tax credit, the dealer will have to break down how much is qualifying outdoor unit and how much of the job is the 80% furnace. But if getting a 15 SEER HP or 16 SEER A/C, that should come out to at least $5000 and get you the full 30%.

This is extremely disturbing since people are making irreversible buying decisions that might not pay back the tax credit they based the decision on. I know my proposal is not broken down by component. I suspect that by far the majority of dealers would not break their prices down due to competitive issues.

Right now for a HP the only Energy Star requirement is (no exceptions or clarifications for dual fuel):

Split Systems:
HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

I have raised the issue of dual fuel system certification with an 80% furnace with both of my Federal Senators and my Representative. They either did not answer or got lost for weeks chasing their tail with DOE and Energy Star before giving up (Sad news is I think that it is an IRS decision due to the tax credit).

Don't you guys have an association with some clout in Washington to clarify your business requirements on this tax credit?

What is your opinion of starting a thread that specifically seeks advice/opinions on whether the AHRI certification is sufficient for supporting the 2009 Stimulus Tax Credit?

[gary_g]

This is extremely disturbing since people are making irreversible buying decisions that might not pay back the tax credit they based the decision on. I know my proposal is not broken down by component. I suspect that by far the majority of dealers would not break their prices down due to competitive issues.


IRS says that component costs that qualify must be separated from component costs that don't qualify:

FAQ #8:

http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?p_sid=J-2e9zrj&p_lva=&p_li=&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_page=1&p_cv=&p_pv=1.312&p_prods=312&p_cats=&p_hidden_prods=&prod_lvl1=312&p_search_text=&srch_btn_submit=%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0GO%C2%A0%C2%A0%C 2%A0&p_new_search=1

"Question
How do I calculate the tax credit on a furnace/CAC combination when both parts don't qualify?


Answer
You are only eligible for a tax credit on the qualified component of this system. Ask your HVAC contractor to separate out the cost of the qualified component (vs the non-qualified component), and to provide a Manufacturer’s Certification Statement for the qualified component.

Source: IRS"

[motoguy128]

The IRS has not decided how to handle VS fans on 80% furnaces. At this point, no part of the 80% furnace qualifies since the component cost of the blwoer, ECM motor and cotnroller cannot be easily seperated. the whole point is to encourage the purchase of the most efficint equipment, so you are essentially penalized slightly by choosing a less efficint furnace.

[gary_g]

Seems you are putting some other interpretation on the process and need to resolve the difference with the moderator, beenthere.

The resolution comes from the IRS, not from BeenThere.

[mrs reb77]

The 2009/2010 tax credits resulting from the stimulus aren't the same as the ones previous as the energy star designation is not enough.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3

Regarding 'advance main circulating fan' the irs has released this publication:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-09-53.pdf

[mrs reb77]

The IRS has not decided how to handle VS fans on 80% furnaces. At this point, no part of the 80% furnace qualifies since the component cost of the blwoer, ECM motor and cotnroller cannot be easily seperated. the whole point is to encourage the purchase of the most efficint equipment, so you are essentially penalized slightly by choosing a less efficint furnace.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-09-53.pdf

http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=5592&p_created=1236263253&p_sid=VhonSBsj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=5592&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MSwxJnBfcHJvZHM9MCZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY9JnB fY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9NTU5Mg**&p_li=&p_topview=1

quote: If the fan is qualified, but the furnace is not, you will not be able to take 30% off the cost of the entire furnace. Ask your HVAC contractor to break out the cost of the fan in your bill. You can get a 30% tax credit on the cost of the fan alone.

If the furnace is qualified, but the fan is not, you can still take the 30% tax credit on the full cost of the furnace.

Homeowners are really going to have difficulties doing this.

[jerryd_2008]

The resolution comes from the IRS, not from BeenThere.

With all due respect, Gary, yours too is an opinion. Beenthere's opinion is consistent with the exact AHRI listing for my system and others discussed in this forum with specific reference to the "Furnace Model". Right at the end of the listing, in the field "Eligible for Federal Tax Credit", it says "Yes".

You also seem to avoid the Energy Star heat pump requirements which express no conditions or restrictions other than SEER, EER and HSPF.

I have no experience with previous year's tax credits. Would anybody care to venture comments on the authority of the AHRI certification in terms of the 2009 Stimulus Tax Credit?

[gary_g]

With all due respect, Gary, yours too is an opinion. Beenthere's opinion is consistent with the exact AHRI listing for my system and others discussed in this forum with specific reference to the "Furnace Model". Right at the end of the listing, in the field "Eligible for Federal Tax Credit", it says "Yes".

You also seem to avoid the Energy Star heat pump requirements which express no conditions or restrictions other than SEER, EER and HSPF.

I have no experience with previous year's tax credits. Would anybody care to venture comments on the authority of the AHRI certification in terms of the 2009 Stimulus Tax Credit?

Not trying to argue, just trying to clarify by stating facts.

In Post #11, the IRS FAQ is posted which states that the qualfying component must be separated from the non-qualifying component.

At the end of AHRI Reference# 3227959 (your system), it states "yes" to "Eligible for Fed Tax Credit". I read that as stating that the heat pump portion is eligible because it meets SEER/EER/HSPF with that particular furnace. The furnace is eligible only if it is 95% AFUE, but the heat pump meets the requirements with that furnace.

Energy Star requirements are not the same as the Fed Tax Credit.

Take care.

[jerryd_2008]

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-09-53.pdf

http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=5592&p_created=1236263253&p_sid=VhonSBsj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=5592&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MSwxJnBfcHJvZHM9MCZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY9JnB fY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9NTU5Mg**&p_li=&p_topview=1

quote: If the fan is qualified, but the furnace is not, you will not be able to take 30% off the cost of the entire furnace. Ask your HVAC contractor to break out the cost of the fan in your bill. You can get a 30% tax credit on the cost of the fan alone.

If the furnace is qualified, but the fan is not, you can still take the 30% tax credit on the full cost of the furnace.

Homeowners are really going to have difficulties doing this.

Mrs. Reb, we should all take your 20 page references to bed to ensure a quick nap. What is your reference and what is its authority? It's not clear to me. Maybe you should quote more specific passages.

Also, this discussion, appears to be moving off point. There are furnaces and then there are heat pumps that use furnaces and other air handlers to distribute heat and cooling to the house. These are 2 separate listings at Energy Star and AHRI also distinguishes between varieties of them. Our questions are not about qualifying a stand-alone furnace but an entire heat pump with an outside unit and an inside unit that just happens to be a VS, 80% gas furnace.

So far I have seen only opinions which is unfortunate for home owners making buying decisions based on smoke. Are there any energy law savvy contributors out there? Since you will be required to certify these units under threat of fines, how about the manufacturers I see floating subtly through this forum from time-to-time?

[jerryd_2008]

Not trying to argue, just trying to clarify by stating facts.

...

At the end of AHRI Reference# 3227959 (your system), it states "yes" to "Eligible for Fed Tax Credit". I read that as stating that the heat pump portion is eligible because it meets SEER/EER/HSPF with that particular furnace. The furnace is eligible only if it is 95% AFUE, but the heat pump meets the requirements with that furnace.

Energy Star requirements are not the same as the Fed Tax Credit.

Take care.

Gary, not taking offense, just tying to get some definitive discussion going due to the nasty consequences for home owners making unchangeable decisions based on smoke.

Beg to differ with your AHRI interpretation. There are specific AHRI certifications with the explicit 80%, VS furnace model referenced. The 90%+ furnace model is yet another certification as are pure air handlers presumably with electric strips as needed for the local. You should do some what-ifs and extract the actual models certified.

By the way, I have sent an email to AHRI asking them to explain the tax credit statement as well as the specific VS, 80% furnace situation. Don't know if they will talk to me since I am not affiliated with them or the industry. Maybe somebody that is should pose the same questions. Here is exact text to AHRI:

"For heat pumps what does the field "Eligible for Federal Tax Credit" in your listings mean?

Is this an assurance that this entry, even if it has an variable speed, 80% furnace, will be accepted for the full install cost for the 2009 Stimulus Tax Credit?

Therefore one would use this certification document as proof when filling one's 2009 Federal taxes, correct?"

I and others should appreciate your warning about throwing around the Energy Star requirements to loosely. However, the Energy Star requirements I quote are linked to from a link entitled "Tax credits are available at 30% of the cost, up to $1,500, in 2009 & 2010 (for existing homes only) for".

[wraujr]

Based on my readings of IRS rules, do not expect to use the AHRI cert as required documentation. Certifying documents must be from the manufacturer and "signed" by manufacturers representative. The AHRI certificate falls short in many areas of meeting the IRS rules.....

[gary_g]

I and others should appreciate your warning about throwing around the Energy Star requirements to loosely. However, the Energy Star requirements I quote are linked to from a link entitled "Tax credits are available at 30% of the cost, up to $1,500, in 2009 & 2010 (for existing homes only) for".

From the EnergyStar.gov website, http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3

last column on the right near the HVAC specs:

"Note — not all ENERGY STAR products will qualify for the tax credit"

Take care.

[jerryd_2008]

Based on my readings of IRS rules, do not expect to use the AHRI cert as required documentation. Certifying documents must be from the manufacturer and "signed" by manufacturers representative. The AHRI certificate falls short in many areas of meeting the IRS rules.....

wraujr, I agree. The certification responsibility appears to be with the manufacturer. Consequences lay in store for any incorrect certification.

That said. I looked up the York certificate and it says York certifies, gives address and program manager name (yikes, is he the one that goes to jail or pays the fine?) and references the ARI (AHRI) certification #.

The York certificate appears very similar to an AHRI certification - SEER, EER, HSPF, model numbers, coil. Do you have additional details as to how the AHRI certificate falls short?

[jerryd_2008]

From the EnergyStar.gov website, http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3

last column on the right near the HVAC specs:

"Note — not all ENERGY STAR products will qualify for the tax credit"

Take care.

Gary, you are right. However, it is obvious that the "normal" Energy Star requirements that are cautioned about are lower than those stated in the 2009 tax credit requirements. Take link and find "Energy Star criteria" (not the same as tax credit criteria!):

Air-Source Heat Pumps >= 8.2 HSPF/ >=14.5 SEER/ >=12 EER* for split systems

Whereas in the SUMMARY OF TAX CREDITS FOR HOMEOWNERS table where the link is and in the column "Tax Credit Specification" you find the 2009 tax credit Air Source Heat Pumps requirements are:

Split Systems:
HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

Note: HSPF is .3 higher, SEER .5 higher and EER .5 higher for tax credit than for Energy Star rating. Poor idea to make them different but those are the requirements.

I understand the differences and all must be aware of them. However, Gary, this doesn't support your opinion that dual fuel units must satisfy the stand-alone "Natural Gas or Propane Furnace" tax credit requirements (does it?):

AFUE >= 95

All of this discussion is helpful to show us all how messy and ill-conceived the tax credit law is.

[mrs reb77]

Sir, you seem to be ignoring the facts that have been presented because they don't fit with your concept.

I have no idea what 20 page references you're referring to and questioning the source of--did you happen to look at them? The fan reference came from the energy star website and is the IRS release regarding such. It's what they're doing! And, energy star website gave a synopsis of that (along with the link!) which is there where I linked it.

Simply put, there are no 80% furnaces that will qualify (as of now anyway!) for the 2009/2010 tax credit because it lists the qualification as AFUE >= 95. Heck, there's lots of 95+> furnaces that will actually qualify but not in certain applications! We most recently ran into that in a downflow application. The only 95% that qualified in the downflow (from our line) had to have v.s. and 2 stage gas.

[wraujr]

What you said you saw on the York certificate (mfgr's address and a signed rep's signature) are exactly what the AHRI cert. is missing. Mfgr's cert can certainly reference the AHRI cert., but utimately what you saw from York is what you will need from any mfgr.....

[RyanHughes]

The only 95% that qualified in the downflow (from our line) had to have v.s. and 2 stage gas.

Out of sheer curiosity, which equipment line do you deal with?

[mrs reb77]

Mrs. Reb, we should all take your 20 page references to bed to ensure a quick nap. What is your reference and what is its authority? It's not clear to me. Maybe you should quote more specific passages.

Also, this discussion, appears to be moving off point. There are furnaces and then there are heat pumps that use furnaces and other air handlers to distribute heat and cooling to the house. These are 2 separate listings at Energy Star and AHRI also distinguishes between varieties of them. Our questions are not about qualifying a stand-alone furnace but an entire heat pump with an outside unit and an inside unit that just happens to be a VS, 80% gas furnace.

So far I have seen only opinions which is unfortunate for home owners making buying decisions based on smoke. Are there any energy law savvy contributors out there? Since you will be required to certify these units under threat of fines, how about the manufacturers I see floating subtly through this forum from time-to-time?
Reference is the federal government website which was in the link.
If you doubt that is the correct place, start here http://www.energy.gov/taxbreaks.htm

[mrs reb77]

Out of sheer curiosity, which equipment line do you deal with?

ICP

[wraujr]

A PORTION of an 80% furnace IF it has a variable speed fan will qualify IF you can get the mfgr to tell what portion of the total furnace cost is the VS fan.

From the IRS rules
"If the furnace is not qualified energy property, but the furnace’s main air circulating fan is qualified energy property, only the amount paid or incurred to purchase and install the fan are taken into account in determining the amount of the credit under § 25C."

I won't attach the rule, but its a simple ratio so if mfgr tells your that the fan is 30% the cost of a $2000 furnace, then the fan's value (not the credit) is 0.30 x $2000 or $600. Then if the AC cost was $4000, your total cost allowable for credit would be $4000 + $600, or $4600.... These ARE NOT REAL WORLD prices, just a sample calculation.

[mrs reb77]

Yeah, that's the ruling I quoted and posted earlier :o

That's why I said the homeowner would have a tough time with it--we don't break out prices even between condenser, air handler/furnace, coil etc. and now they'd wanna know the fan? How do we know? We purchased the UNIT to install! :eek:

[jerryd_2008]

Sir, you seem to be ignoring the facts that have been presented because they don't fit with your concept.

I have no idea what 20 page references you're referring to and questioning the source of--did you happen to look at them? ...

Mrs. Reb, I did indeed try to read http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-09-53.pdf which you provided and it is indeed 20 pages long and written in governmentalize with little specifics. The Energy Star site is much more specific, but lacks a lot of explanation, needs careful analysis, and, yes, some interpretation.

Not trying to pick an argument, more like a reasonable discussion. But have you carefully read all of the discussion below? Don't think I am off-base, but I could be. Several here are quoting stand-alone furnace and advanced main circulating fan tax credit requirements. Those are different sets of requirements from those of heat pumps and by implication duel fuel systems.

In the referenced Energy Star TAX CREDIT TABLE there are separate requirements for Central A/C, Air Source Heat Pumps, Natural Gas or Propane Furnace, Advanced Main Air Circulating Fan for the tax credit. See HVAC table entries at:

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3

Maybe others can explain why Energy Star even listed Advanced Main Air Circulating Fan. Do manufacturers offer this option? Is the warranty even valid if you retrofitted one on your furnace? Could that have been a bureaucrat coming back from a 5-Martini lunch where he heard about the new low-power, variable-speed furnace motors?

[wraujr]

Should come from ICP not you... But if you had to:
Take list price of the ECM motor (you do sell replacement parts) and divide it by list price of furnace, multiply by 100 and you have the % to give customer. No need to give any list prices to customer.....Since all furnaces have control boards and cabling everything else is essentially equivalent.....

[jerryd_2008]

...

From the IRS rules
"If the furnace is not qualified energy property, but the furnace’s main air circulating fan is qualified energy property, only the amount paid or incurred to purchase and install the fan are taken into account in determining the amount of the credit under § 25C."

...

wraujr, can you provide a link to these IRS rules? Are these rules for the 2009/2010 tax credits or for prior years?

Also, I was busy creating a response past yours which addresses the 4 types of separate tax credit requirement and my dismay at the fan one. Please review and comment on that.

Are you by chance a tax adviser or with a manufacturer?

[wraujr]

From the doc link that Mrs. Reb posted.

No I am not a tax advisor nor an HVAC tech nor a mfgr's rep.
The above are my personal opinions and are offered as an opinion and not as tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor (isn't that what they all say).

See sample calculation for VS furnace above.

[jerryd_2008]

Thank you, wraujr. But you skipped over the points: "the 4 types of separate tax credit requirement and my dismay at the fan one". Both you and Mrs. Reb seem stuck on the fan and furnace requirements and are ignoring the separate heat pump requirement, no?

I believe myself to be quite expert at written specs and requirements having done this for a living for decades in technical environments and applications. These tax credit ones are vague and I think poorly articulated. But I don't think you have to jump around between them but just have to find one that fits. It's either an AC, furnace or heat pump system. The fan one appears to me to be from an idiot living in Ya-Ya Land. Unless somebody can successfully address the question of a low-power motor as an add-on option and the effect on one's warranty. Sounds like it could be accomplished only as a DIY project, in my humble opinion.

[gary_g]

Whereas in the SUMMARY OF TAX CREDITS FOR HOMEOWNERS table where the link is and in the column "Tax Credit Specification" you find the 2009 tax credit Air Source Heat Pumps requirements are:

Split Systems:
HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

I understand the differences and all must be aware of them. However, Gary, this doesn't support your opinion that dual fuel units must satisfy the stand-alone "Natural Gas or Propane Furnace" tax credit requirements (does it?):

AFUE >= 95


Jerry:

You listed the requiremnents for a heat pump to meet the Fed Tax Credit.

Those requirements are valid if the heat pump has a furnace as an air handler or uses an air handler without a furnace. The SEER/EER/HSPF of the system must still be met, furnace or no furnace.

If a furnace is used with the heat pump (dual fuel), the furnace must be 95% AFUE FOR THE FURNACE TO QUALIFY. If it's not 95% AFUE, the furnace does not qualify.

[jerryd_2008]

Jerry:

You listed the requiremnents for a heat pump to meet the Fed Tax Credit.

Those requirements are valid if the heat pump has a furnace as an air handler or uses an air handler without a furnace. The SEER/EER/HSPF of the system must still be met, furnace or no furnace.

If a furnace is used with the heat pump (dual fuel), the furnace must be 95% AFUE FOR THE FURNACE TO QUALIFY. If it's not 95% AFUE, the furnace does not qualify.

Gary, I think that we have come to the point where we need to agree to disagree. We are in the smoke of the Fed requirements waiting for the IRS to rule. Unfortunately, there may be home owners who get a surprise when their "tax credit" is reduced if your position is supported.

Fortunately, most heat pump systems will probably have $5,000 worth of qualified HP equipment and install cost so that (30% * qualified cost) gets the maximum $1500 tax credit. Unfortunately, I personally have not seen any proposals that break down the component and install costs, and I don't think it will be easy to get the contractors to do that especially at tax time.

I had held out hope that a manufacturer, tax adviser or other knowledgeable party might venture a non-binding but authoritative opinion on these questions to help relieve the suspense for us home owners.

[motoguy128]

My proposal seperated the cost of the furnace and heat pump.... unfortunately, neither met the tax requirements. Oh well. The feds can keep the $1500.... seems like they need it to pay for all these bail outs.

But hey... my heat pump is at least energy star qualified... that should make a couple tree-huggers happy.

[wraujr]

There appears to be no definitive definition of a heat pump "system" in the IRS rules.
Could be:
a. Outdoor Unit and Coil
b. Outdoor Unit and Coil and Air Handler
c. Outdoor Unit and Coil and Furnace
All three could be considered a "system". The fact that b. uses electric strip vs. c. which uses fossil fuel as fossil fuel could be considered irrelevant as the combined components constitute the "heap pump system". Since the furnace is being purchased as part of a "heat pump system" could be construed to mean that the furnace requirement does not apply and only applies to furnace only or furnace with AC purchases.

It will really depend on what manufacturer puts down on the cert. paper.

[gary_g]

Unfortunately, I personally have not seen any proposals that break down the component and install costs, and I don't think it will be easy to get the contractors to do that especially at tax time.


You are indeed correct. The components are typically not broken out on a quote. I have read many posts on this site where posters were bashed by the pro's because they wanted a breakdown of costs. Now the contractors will have to break out the costs on certain systems so their customers can claim the tax credit.

If it were me, I would claim the entire cost of the dual fuel system for the tax credit regardless if the furnace met the requirements.

[jerryd_2008]

There appears to be no definitive definition of a heat pump "system" in the IRS rules.
Could be:
a. Outdoor Unit and Coil
b. Outdoor Unit and Coil and Air Handler
c. Outdoor Unit and Coil and Furnace
All three could be considered a "system". The fact that b. uses electric strip vs. c. which uses fossil fuel as fossil fuel could be considered irrelevant as the combined components constitute the "heap pump system". Since the furnace is being purchased as part of a "heat pump system" could be construed to mean that the furnace requirement does not apply and only applies to furnace only or furnace with AC purchases.

It will really depend on what manufacturer puts down on the cert. paper.

wraujr, forgot to ask if you're a lawyer.

I think you summarize the debate well. And, yes, the manufacturer will have to provide the certification.

I of course go for c. and "heat pump system", as others in the forum have advised. Further, the certification for my unit and on my proposal is an AHRI certification number that treats the HP/furnace/coil as a system for SEER, EER, HSPF and states "Yes" that it qualifies for the tax credit. Others on the other side of the discussion have reached another conclusion (or maybe know the IRS better).

As concluded already, we are at the mercy of the manufacturer and the IRS which probably won't rule until very late this year or even next year just in time for home owners to file their income tax forms (Have you ever noticed how far into the next year tax packages like TurboTax are still not final on special forms - you would if you do any calendar year transaction that requires you to calculate your taxes in December and pay the estimated taxes all by January 15, the 4th quarter deadline).

Gary, we have both reached the fall back position: "If it were me, I would claim the entire cost of the dual fuel system for the tax credit regardless if the furnace met the requirements." This should be the recommended approach, in addition to an argument that the certifying organization, AHRI, treats it as a system for qualification. In the absence of very clear rejection of this thinking by the IRS, go for it! Let the IRS prove you wrong.

Want to thank you guys and gals for allowing us to at least clarify the issues and possible tax credit strategies for home owners. Some people may not be used to my driving approach to find a resolution to a difficult, but worthwhile issue.

[jerryd_2008]

...

By the way, I have sent an email to AHRI asking them to explain the tax credit statement as well as the specific VS, 80% furnace situation. Don't know if they will talk to me since I am not affiliated with them or the industry. Maybe somebody that is should pose the same questions. Here is exact text to AHRI:

"For heat pumps what does the field "Eligible for Federal Tax Credit" in your listings mean?

Is this an assurance that this entry, even if it has an variable speed, 80% furnace, will be accepted for the full install cost for the 2009 Stimulus Tax Credit?

Therefore one would use this certification document as proof when filling one's 2009 Federal taxes, correct?"

...

With much surprise I discovered a very timely response from AHRI to my above email. I though that they had flicked me off but there it is, right in my SPAM bucket. And their response is:

"Jerry,

If the certification record shows “Eligible for Federal Tax Credit” = Yes, it means that this exact model/combination has met the minimum rating requirements of EER >= 12.5, and SEER >= 15 and HSPF >= 8.5. (All model numbers noted on the certificate must match the model numbers of the units installed).

I do not know what documentation is required in order to apply for the tax credit, any questions on how and where to file would need to be directed to the IRS or a tax professional.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance with the online directory.

Mari-Lou

Mari-Lou Paul
Data Consultant
AHRI Directory of Certified Products Technical Support"

Of course, AHRI respectfully declined to discuss what is required to document the tax credit qualification, but that has been addressed in other threads.

Just to clarify one sticky but very relevant issue of a 3rd party coil needed to make a manufacturer's outside and inside unit eligible for the tax credit, at least Aspen has verified they will and that they do have a means on their web site to certify the entire inside/coil/outside unit combination for the tax credit. The outside/inside unit manufacturer had declined to provide a certification with the 3rd party coil.

Hope this helps in the debate whether an 80% furnace can indeed be included in the tax credit cost. Makes it very clear to me. Along with the cover your butt, consult your tax adviser. Right....!!!!

[darc]

since posting this topic on June 22nd & after reading 17 pages of posts with differing viewpoints from HVAC experts, maybe you can see why a customer like me is really confused about what qualifies & what doesn't for the 2009 federal tax credits, & having ALOT of difficulty making a decision on a new AC & furnace.

here are my questions:
1) does the hvac contractor who sells & installs furnace & AC issue the certifying document or does the manufacturer issue the certifying document that is required by IRS for 2009 federal tax credits (see post #20)? some contractors told me only the manufacturer issues it while other contractors told me they issue it.

2) if i buy a new 80% afue furnace that is 2 stage but not variable speed w/ a new AC condensor, would the furnace or the furnace motor qualify for the federal tax credit? or do you have to have vs with a 80% afue furnace in order for motor fan or furnace to qualify?

3) how likely is it that one of these hvac contractors will tell you the cost of the 80% vs furnace motor fan & issue a certifying document for tax credit on the motor fan when NO ONE AGREES WHAT QUALIFIES FOR THE TAX CREDIT, & WHEN CONTRACTORS DON'T WANT TO DISCLOSE ANY PART OF THEIR PRICING?

4) question for motoguy128 in response to your post #2: help me understand why you are recommending a 3 ton XL20i for a 1950 all brick house no insulation in the walls, double paned anderson windows, w/ total heating loaad of 62,627 & total cooling load of 28,968---doesn't a 2 1/2 ton cool a 30,000 cooling load house?

5) can 1 or 2 pieces of equipment qualify for federal tax credits? for example: contractor installs new 80% afue 2 stage but not vs furnace, 15 seer ac condenser, & non aspen coil. can 1 of these 3 components qualify or do all 3 have to qualify for federal tax credits?
thanks

[jerryd_2008]

since posting this topic on June 22nd & after reading 17 pages of posts with differing viewpoints from HVAC experts, maybe you can see why a customer like me is really confused about what qualifies & what doesn't for the 2009 federal tax credits, & having ALOT of difficulty making a decision on a new AC & furnace.

Darc, you ain't the only one. First, I am a HO, not HVAC expert, and I believe motoguy is also. Second, nobody is an expert on this tax credit. Heck, even the IRS, Energy Star and Congress don't know what the heck was passed. Third, some of us included the tax credit, manufacturer rebates and proposal costs in our economic justification and tried to clarify some of these issues from potential experts like manufacturers, 3rd party manufacturers, AHRI the industry certification organization (sounds like the Underwriter Laboratory of the HVAC industry to me) and it is an evolving process. Fourth, if you want certainty, wait until 2010 after we go through the 1st tax year under this tax credit and the IRS has to define the rules. Given this, I'll give you what I have learned and believe after many, many, many hours of research. Could never have done this if I was still working.


here are my questions:
1) does the hvac contractor who sells & installs furnace & AC issue the certifying document or does the manufacturer issue the certifying document that is required by IRS for 2009 federal tax credits (see post #20)? some contractors told me only the manufacturer issues it while other contractors told me they issue it.

IRS Notice 2009-53 states that the manufacturer may issue a certificate. It doesn't say any other party may issue it. Given that, the distributor or contractor may get it for you from the manufacturer. You can also look on the manufacturer's web site if they made all 3 parts and you have the AHRI certification # for outside unit/coil/inside unit combo and print it out yourself. Just be very sure you get the models right. I wouldn't do this unless the contractor wrote the exact AHRI certification number on the proposal and I can find it by that number and not model numbers. However, if there is a mix and match with a 3rd party coil (Aspen, say), you should expect that 3rd party coil company to supply it. The reason is simple. The coil manufacturer paid for the certification with the other equipment and they have to say it works. I would insist that the contractor get that 3rd party certificate and wouldn't even allow the install to proceed before you have it - that's worth up to $1500.


2) if i buy a new 80% afue furnace that is 2 stage but not variable speed w/ a new AC condensor, would the furnace or the furnace motor qualify for the federal tax credit? or do you have to have vs with a 80% afue furnace in order for motor fan or furnace to qualify?

See Post 42 right before this. Read it and you decide if the question has been answered, I think it has and the answer is whatever combo AHRI certifies and says qualifies for the tax credit is allowed. You will probably find the pro's saying that without a VS 80% furnace, you won't make it. But that's up to them to say.


3) how likely is it that one of these hvac contractors will tell you the cost of the 80% vs furnace motor fan & issue a certifying document for tax credit on the motor fan when NO ONE AGREES WHAT QUALIFIES FOR THE TAX CREDIT, & WHEN CONTRACTORS DON'T WANT TO DISCLOSE ANY PART OF THEIR PRICING?

It's simple. If the contractor cannot tell you an exact AHRI certification # that covers the combo, I wouldn't touch it! In my experience and what I heard from the pro's here, don't count on him breaking out any equipment prices. Again, if you still don't know what qualifies after rereading Post 42 yet again, I would wait until 2010.


4) question for motoguy128 in response to your post #2: help me understand why you are recommending a 3 ton XL20i for a 1950 all brick house no insulation in the walls, double paned anderson windows, w/ total heating loaad of 62,627 & total cooling load of 28,968---doesn't a 2 1/2 ton cool a 30,000 cooling load house?

Let motoguy answer.


5) can 1 or 2 pieces of equipment qualify for federal tax credits? for example: contractor installs new 80% afue 2 stage but not vs furnace, 15 seer ac condenser, & non aspen coil. can 1 of these 3 components qualify or do all 3 have to qualify for federal tax credits?
thanks

I think you need to ask your tax adviser that. It will probably be expensive. OR my advise is to reread Post 42 and the answer to question 3 and do that.

Darc, you are in a very undefined area. Some good info has been dug out through much hard work. You would have had to pay your tax adviser big time to get this far. I would either accept it or if you don't need to replace your system wait until 2010 or later this year to see if it clears up. I doubt this will happen until early in 2010 just before 2009 tax filing time.

[hvaclown]

Hi Jerry,
You've asked this question several times with no response. Can a contractor supply JUST a vs blower system for a furnace and the answer is yes. A variable-speed blower system can be retro-fitted into certain ThermoPride furnaces and also into Maytag/Nordyne equipment. These "up-grades" can cost up to $1,500.00 and I would imagine qualify for the 30% tax credit.

[gary_g]

"Jerry,

If the certification record shows “Eligible for Federal Tax Credit” = Yes, it means that this exact model/combination has met the minimum rating requirements of EER >= 12.5, and SEER >= 15 and HSPF >= 8.5. (All model numbers noted on the certificate must match the model numbers of the units installed).


The heat pump qualifies with that furnace. If the gas furnace is not 95% AFUE, it does not qualify.

No real new info from AHRI.

[jerryd_2008]

The heat pump qualifies with that furnace. If the gas furnace is not 95% AFUE, it does not qualify.

No real new info from AHRI.

Gary, don't know what other authorities to quote for you. My question to AHRI stated in Post 42 is very clear: "Is this an assurance that this entry, even if it has an variable speed, 80% furnace, will be accepted for the full install cost for the 2009 Stimulus Tax Credit?"

Likewise the AHRI response is very clear to me: "If the certification record shows “Eligible for Federal Tax Credit” = Yes, it means that this exact model/combination has met the minimum rating requirements of EER >= 12.5, and SEER >= 15 and HSPF >= 8.5. (All model numbers noted on the certificate must match the model numbers of the units installed)." They are in my humble opinion supporting the argument that this is a system that has passed the requirements!

If you have another authoritative statement that contradicts this, please provide it. This does not mean your interpretation of the requirements. It means an authoritative reference. HO's are entitled to the best available information. Further debate just churns the situation and frustrates HO's who want or need to move.

Elsewhere somebody has stated that they believe that by the time the requirements are made perfectly clear, it will be the AHRI rating that will be the authority.

My Post 44 was a best effort attempt to make things as clear as I can determine at this point in time. I stated my information. Darc was complaining that all of this debate is confusing. Me too. But I think I have supported my position. Please be constructive and either state if your position is opinion/interpretation or you have further supporting information and let's go with the best info we have. If you still doubt, you too can take my advice and wait until 2010 after the rules for 2009 taxes are "clear" and take action then (or consult your tax adviser-good luck there). Others are making their move on best available information (and probably can argue down any IRS auditor or at least court that they proceeded using uncertain information and in good faith).

[darc]

thanks for your response, jerryd, & thanks for posting ahri response! i have some questions about ahri's statement in post #42:

"If the certification record shows “Eligible for Federal Tax Credit” = Yes, it means that this exact model/combination has met the minimum rating requirements of EER >= 12.5, and SEER >= 15 and HSPF >= 8.5. (All model numbers noted on the certificate must match the model numbers of the units installed)."

1) is the "certification record" obtained by contractor from ahri website or from another site?

2) do you have the link to the website where the "certification record" is obtained? i ask because contractors who gave me quotes were quoting federal tax credit qualified equipment from several sources & several websites such as: http://www.ceedirectory.org/ceedirectory/pages/ac/cee/defaultSearch.aspx
& http://cafs.ahrinet.org/gama_cafs/sdpsearch/search.jsp?table=Furnace. the first site impossible for a HO to figure out what to enter (residential tiers...) & no idea what it will produce after inputing all the info. the second site which produces an ahri certificate of product performance but nothing about qualification for federal tax credits.

3) based on following response you received from ahri in #42, "it means that this exact model/combination has met the minimum rating requirement",
& also based on what energy star links to for tax qualified furnaces at AHRI tax credit eligible furnaces at: http://www.ahrinet.org/ARI/util/showdoc.aspx?doc=1317 which only lists 95% afue gas furnace models as qualified,
it sounds to me like NO 80% furnace would EVER qualify for the 2009 federal tax credit no matter if it is variable speed or matched with a 15 or greater SEER AC w/ an Aspen coil since the minimum rating requirement is 95% afue---is that your read on it?

4) energy star states that ac may qualify if:
"as long as it qualifies on its own. However, many air conditioners on the market today will only be able to qualify for the tax credit if you also replace the "indoor air handler" (which is usually part of the furnace). These air conditioners need the added efficiency from a new air handler (with an ECM motor) to reach the tax credit efficiency level." then it tells you there ain't no consolidated rating system for ac & good luck trying to find your ac on the 2 links it provides.

would a 80% single speed 2 stage gas furnace qualify as a new air handler w/ ecm motor? for example the american standard aud2b080a9362a (ahri certified ref #270076)?

[jerryd_2008]

Darc, maybe we need to clarify something. I looked at your 1st Post and you were talking about either an AC/coil or a HP. Actually you have been very quiet throughout this discussion. They are different tax credit-wise. My Post 44 assumes that you are looking at a HP. If you’re not, then you have to satisfy the Energy Star AC requirements which are higher than those for a HP. And then you may have to satisfy the furnace requirements as an air handler at 95% AFUE separately. See the the Energy Star AC/HP/frunace requirements for tax credit at: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3

However, some of the furnace models with the York AC's, for example, with 3rd party coils meeting 16 SEER and 13 EER on the AHRI directory look a lot like 80% VS to me. A pro familiar with York and AHRI needs to answer this since the models aren't clear to me.

A HP system gets by with a lower requirement than an AC/coil and a furnace. Think about it. A HP is at least 100% efficient while heating even at its balance point and can go up to 300-400% efficient at higher outside temperatures. No NG furnace better than high 90's efficiency.

Gary may be arguing the AC/coil and furnace combo and not the HP system, but he would have to state that. Which one are we talking about?

While you respond to that, the tax credit certificate, not certification, "may" be provided by the manufacturer. In turn the manufacturer, in my experience, quotes the AHRI certification # for the inside unit/coil/outside unit. AHRI is the certification authority but the manufacturer according to IRS Notice 2009-53 "may" provide the certificate. Reason why? The certificate contains the name of the manufacturer, a responsible person, a statement that it qualifies, etc. required by the Feds.


... 1) is the "certification record" obtained by contractor from ahri website or from another site? )?

I would insist that the contractor hand me the certificate and forget about where he gets it from. You don't want to assume the responsibility for that if there is a mess up. It’s worth $1,500. But typically they are on the manufacturer’s web site.

If you want to see a real example of a manufacturer certificate from York based on AHRI certifications see: http://www.yorkupg.com/homeowners/pdfs/EPA_CERT_York.pdf


2) do you have the link to the website where the "certification record" is obtained? ... )?

The AHRI Directory Search site is: http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/home.aspx

For a HP certification #, select under the "Residential" pull down list "Heat Pumps and Heat Pump Coils". If you want AC, select "Air Conditioners and Air Conditioner Coils". They are different. But both have a field on the far right that makes the statement "“Eligible for Federal Tax Credit = Yes" referred to in my question and answer to/from AHRI.

To me the CEE directory looks like an AHRI directory search rip-off and even has the AHRI logo on the page that comes up, but it doesn't seem to work very well. I trust the AHRI directory above.


3) ... energy star links to for tax qualified furnaces at AHRI tax credit eligible furnaces at: http://www.ahrinet.org/ARI/util/showdoc.aspx?doc=1317 which only lists 95% afue gas furnace models as qualified,
it sounds to me like NO 80% furnace would EVER qualify for the 2009 federal tax credit ... )?

A pro needs to answer the question in the 1st paragraph about the York AHRI 16 SEER AC listings before this can be answered.


4) energy star states that ac may qualify if:
"as long as it qualifies on its own. However, many air conditioners on the market today will only be able to qualify for the tax credit if you also replace the "indoor air handler" (which is usually part of the furnace). These air conditioners need the added efficiency from a new air handler (with an ECM motor) to reach the tax credit efficiency level." then it tells you there ain't no consolidated rating system for ac & good luck trying to find your ac on the 2 links it provides.

would a 80% single speed 2 stage gas furnace qualify as a new air handler w/ ecm motor? for example the american standard aud2b080a9362a (ahri certified ref #270076)?

Darc, quit the what-ifs. Just go to the appropriate AHRI directory search web site. Select the AC or HP manufacturer(s) you want. Set the SEER an EER (and HSPF for HP) to desired levels (at or above Energy Star AC tax credit requirements). Hit Enter and see what qualifies. That’s it!

So, Darc, for $$$ more (offset by possibly higher manufacturer rebates), why don’t you just get a HP? If you don’t live in a frigid area and you still want a NG furnace versus heat strips and air handler, you can get by with some 80% VS NG furnaces, save the cost of a 95%+ furnace and the condensate pipe going out your outside wall. That’s what I did.

[darc]

jerryd: thanks for responding.

1) so based on the york certificate you provided,the certificate that i receive from the contractor will not specifically note the AC condensor, furnace & coil models I purchased & which ones are qualified? rather it would be a certificate that lists all AC model numbers that qualify for 2009 federal tax credit?

2) it looks like absolutely none of the York furnaces qualify for the federal tax credits based on the link you provided which states:
"Air handlers only meet the criteria requirements
as part of an AC or HP system, and do not qualify
on their own."----is that how you read it?

3) am trying to see if any of the following equipment qualify for the tax credits & tried numerous times searching for following 3 pieces of equipment on the website http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/home.aspx but get "no results matched your criteria". when i search for only the furnace on the website it provides a certificate of product performance but no info if the equipment does or does not qualify for federal tax credits. any suggestions how to search this website to find if following equipment qualifies for federal tax credit?

a) American Standard Heating & Air Conditioning equipment:
aud2b080a9362a furnace, multispeed, 2 stage 80% afue, 80k btu
4a7a5030 ac condenser, 2.5 ton, up to 16.25 SEER
4txcb031bchac coil

b) Trane equipment that contractor said would qualify for entire $1500 tax credit. The cerficate of product performance has a footnote that the furnace has an ecm motor:
tud080r9v3 xv80 furnace, 80% afue, 80k btu, variable speed 2 stage
4ttx5030a1000a xl15i ac condenser, 2.5 ton, up to 16 seer
apen coil c(a,c,d,e) 30d44

c) Trane equipment that contractor said would qualify for entire $1500 tax credit:
tud080r9v3 xv80 furnace, 80% afue, 80k btu, variable speed 2 stage
4ttx5030a1000a xl15i ac condenser, 2.5 ton, up to 16 seer
4txcb031bc3hca coil

4) i am no longer interested in a heat pump because i dont want to be cold in the winter w/ cold air blowing around in the house. too many reports from friends who experience this with the heat pump. i am thinking along same line as you are w/ an 80% multispeed or variable speed furnace instead of springing for a 95% furnace which will require expense of my b vent pipe to be lined so hot water heater will vent properly w/out the furnace also venting thru it, 2 holes punched in the side of the house wall, a condensate pump hose that has to run a long distance before it can be drained, & plans to be in the house less than 5 years.

5) i appreciate your recommendation that you get the certificate in hand BEFORE contractor installs hvac equipment. how does a 3rd party certificate work

5) anybody know what the difference is between a multispeed furnace like the
american standard aud2b080a9362a, & the variable speed furnace like the Trane tud080r9v3?

Regards, Darc

[jerryd_2008]

...
1) so based on the york certificate you provided,the certificate that i receive from the contractor will not specifically note the AC condensor, furnace & coil models I purchased & which ones are qualified? rather it would be a certificate that lists all AC model numbers that qualify for 2009 federal tax credit?

The actual certificate should specifically mention the exact AC/coil/Furnace models, capacities, SEER, EER and AHRI certification # along with the names of the manufacturers, their address and the name of the person vouching for the certificate.


2) it looks like absolutely none of the York furnaces qualify for the federal tax credits based on the link you provided which states:
"Air handlers only meet the criteria requirements
as part of an AC or HP system, and do not qualify
on their own."----is that how you read it?

You are absolutely correct except that you are looking at systems with York coils only. My system was bid with a 3rd party Aspen coil. The presence of the 3rd party coil shifts the responsibility for the tax credit certificate to the 3rd party coil manufacturer who is vouching for the performance of the system but York stands behind their parts warranty. I have received that certificate from Aspen. Warning: AHRI is as we speak changing their ratings for mixed 3rd party coil/manufacturer combos - make sure it stays certified or go safe with a certified manufacturer coil - I couldn't because there were none.


3) am trying to see if any of the following equipment qualify for the tax credits & tried numerous times searching for following 3 pieces of equipment on the website http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/home.aspx but get "no results matched your criteria". ....

Ryan Hughes on this forum is quite expert at these searches. Searches are not complicated if simple but you need to practice a bit. What makes it hard for me is the cryptic notation they use for the model numbers and sometimes the marketing literature ID's differ from the exact model #. I did some searches on AS and Trane with 16 SEER AC, 13 EER (required for tax credit), Model Status Active and came up with literally 100's of qualifying systems. One needs to know how to do the correct partial searches on furnace and possibly coils in order to home in on the one(s) you want. For example, just putting "80" for 80,000 Btu's in the Furnace Model cuts the responses drastically, but that isn't sophisticated enough to get it to a manageable number.

Help Ryan!


4) i am no longer interested in a heat pump because i dont want to be cold in the winter w/ cold air blowing around in the house. too many reports from friends who experience this with the heat pump. i am thinking along same line as you are w/ an 80% multispeed or variable speed furnace instead of springing for a 95% furnace which will require expense of my b vent pipe to be lined so hot water heater will vent properly w/out the furnace also venting thru it, 2 holes punched in the side of the house wall, a condensate pump hose that has to run a long distance before it can be drained, & plans to be in the house less than 5 years.

I too have little experience with HP's (do you know that many of the units in motels are really HP's?). You do have to be careful about HP cold air claims from people with older units. Less of a problem with a dual fuel that switches to NG at cooler temps which you probably can select. Also, newer HP's have ways of raising the register temps for more comfort. York does and I hope it is true. The 95% .vs. 80% furnace decision depends greatly on your winters and electricity costs and a bit on whether you can tolerate ugly PVC exhausts pipes out your side wall. Now the less than 5 years is a definite economic factor. May be a good resale item but probably hard to recover upfront costs of a lot of extra features, including HP, while not that much more does cost $$$-$$$$.


5) i appreciate your recommendation that you get the certificate in hand BEFORE contractor installs hvac equipment. how does a 3rd party certificate work

See answer above. I had my distributor go to the Aspen web site, find the contact and send an email with exact equipment, Aspen coil and AHRI #. I recommend that you leave this responsibility to the knowledgeable distributor or contractor to relieve yourself of any responsibility for mess ups.


5) anybody know what the difference is between a multispeed furnace like the
american standard aud2b080a9362a, & the variable speed furnace like the Trane tud080r9v3?

For the pro's or HO's with experience to answer. But my York furnace is VS, modulating which is really variable in NG usage from 50-100% in 1% increments.

[darc]

thanks jerry, hope ryan can help with the searches. that AHRI website is really difficult to search. i was able to find some single products like the american standard allegiance 14 model #4a7a5030 ac condenser as eligible for tax credit, but when i tried to add the furnace, it said no matches...

[jerryd_2008]

thanks jerry, hope ryan can help with the searches. that AHRI website is really difficult to search. i was able to find some single products like the american standard allegiance 14 model #4a7a5030 ac condenser as eligible for tax credit, but when i tried to add the furnace, it said no matches...

Went to RyanHughes profile and noted that he hasn't been on since yesterday. Maybe over the weekend. However, he does an email address in his profile if he doesn't get on. Maybe you can drop him an email with the name of this thread to ask for his assistance.

But my results using the search criteria I specified came up with an overwhelming number of qualified units. I mean like close to 1,000 or more for both AS and Trane. Even when I limited the Maximum Cooling to 33,000 Btu's I got over 100. Didn't look at the models which I warned about but they made the Cooling, SEER and EER requirements.

Not familiar with Trane or AS, but are you sure that unit you just referred to makes the 16 SEER and 13 EER required for the tax credit? The 14 in the model seems like a push to get it to 16 SEER but others could advise better. Your previous Trane models had X15 model numbers which seem to have a better shot at making 16 SEER.

[darc]

hi jerryd: in response to your post #53: the american standard condenser alligiance 14 model #4A7A4030 shows a 15 seer rating on their website at:
http://www.americanstandardair.com/HomeOwner/Products/AirConditioners/Allegiance14.aspx

it does not show the eer rating on that website. i am trying to figure out if any or part of the following american standard equipment would qualify for the federal tax credit, & which parts would qualify:

aud2b080a9362a furnace, multispeed, 2 stage 80% afue, 80k btu
4a7a4030 allegiance 14 ac condenser, 2.5 ton, up to 15 seer
4txcb031bchac coil

can anybody help? if you find any of the equipment as qualifying, can you include the link to the webpage or cut & paste the info in the response? thanks