Water temp

[chuckdvc]

Need a little help.

Just had a geothermal system installed. It s split 5 ton system(2/3). I am in Kentucky and there are 5 150ft deep holes.

Problem is the system doesn't seem to be running efficiently so I was curious and felt the temperature of the water lines. The outlet line is hot, i would guess 120 degrees. The return line is about 30 degrees cooler but still very warm to the touch. The installer tells me this will all balance out in time. Its been running for about a week now. The upstairs system cant hold 70 degrees during the day.

This system replaces a heat pump system that worked fine for 10 years.

I am afraid the holes were not backfilled and htere is air around the lines. Am i way off base?

Could it be something else?

Appreciate any help.

[tcktech]

:confused:Have your installer back out to check proper water in and out temps. Check the psi drop water in and out to see flow rate 5 ton= 15 gpm.
5 wells could be air in lines.

[crash11]

120 degrees sounds like refrigerant temp, not water temp. Something is definitely wrong if it's water temp.

[chuckdvc]

It is the water line temp for sure. In fact last night when we had some heat for the day the output line was too hot to hold on to.

The installer is coming back out this afternoon to check temps. One day last week he checked temps and it was 116 degrees. Then he came back on a cool day the unit wasn't running and said it was 62 degrees and all was good. I am afraid when it gets really hot the system will burn itself up.

What are some of the things that will cause this. Will air in the lines cause this much of a problem. Could it be the wells were not back filled properly. If there is air around the pipe it wont conduct the heat efficiently , correct?

[crash11]

Does the water temp get that hot on the inlet side or the outlet side of the heat exchanger? Also, is that the temp right at startup or after the system has circulated for at least 5 minutes?

As an example, I just checked my temps yesterday, and my entering water temp (EWT) was 59.6 F, and my temp rise was 8 F (cooling mode). I have a horizontal loop buried 7 ft down in lower Michigan.

[chuckdvc]

It gets hot on both sides. Last night it was running hard and it was hot. Even when it shuts off its still hot.

Situation is A friend of mine who has been in HVAC for 30 years put the system in but he contracted the drilling and piping out to another contractor who was recommended by the local equipment supplier. When my friend asked the piping guy to come over and help work this out he said he wasn't coming back to my house.

We should have known something was up when this guy told my friend not to worry about the temps , that it would all balance out in time. He also said that since we started now that the ground wasnt as cold as it would be at the end of winter after the system ran all winter. Right then I told my friend that the BS factor just went off the scale.

Good thing is we haven't paid him for the drilling or piping yet. With his refusal to come out and fix it I guess we have to find somebody else to fix it now. The system is cooling but struggling to hold 70 degrees and its working hard, less efficient than a regular heat pump.

I am afraid they didn't fill the wells with anything. There was no material at the site to fill it with. Thus the piping has air around it working as an insulator from the earth/rock. It was mostly all limestone they drilled through.

Anybody in the central Kentucky Area willing to help work this one out?

[tcktech]

:eek: with 5 wells @ 150' in limestone no way you should have ewt that high. The wells need to be grouted in from the bottom up. piped between wells as first in last out. flushed with high flow rate pump to insure not air locked.
I have two new systems in Nashville area. 1ea 5ton w/3 150' wells and 1ea 4ton w/2 150' wells they will put ice in your undies. EWT 68 to 70 F. Find a PRO well man to fix.

[Bergy]

Situation is A friend of mine who has been in HVAC for 30 years put the system in but he contracted the drilling and piping out to another contractor who was recommended by the local equipment supplier. When my friend asked the piping guy to come over and help work this out he said he wasn't coming back to my house.

We should have known something was up when this guy told my friend not to worry about the temps , that it would all balance out in time. He also said that since we started now that the ground wasnt as cold as it would be at the end of winter after the system ran all winter. Right then I told my friend that the BS factor just went off the scale.

Good thing is we haven't paid him for the drilling or piping yet. With his refusal to come out and fix it I guess we have to find somebody else to fix it now. The system is cooling but struggling to hold 70 degrees and its working hard, less efficient than a regular heat pump.

I am afraid they didn't fill the wells with anything. There was no material at the site to fill it with. Thus the piping has air around it working as an insulator from the earth/rock. It was mostly all limestone they drilled through.


Chuck,

Do not run your heat pump until this is resolved.

DO NOT PAY A SINGLE PENNY to the driller. This is your only leverage over him. Any vertical bore more than 20' deep is considered a well and MUST be grouted with an enhanced thermal grout. I, personally, would not allow him to touch the loops again. I would find a QUALIFIED driller and have the loops properly installed, grouted, filled and flushed.

Bergy

[Mark T]

Try -

http://www.northwestgeothermal.com

Kenergy Corporation
P.O. Box 1389
Owensboro, KY 42302-1389
Phone: 270-926-4141

Corken Steel Products Company
7920 Kentucky Drive
Florence, KY 41042
www.corkensteel.com
Phone: 859-291-4664

Lyon, Conklin & Co., Inc
118 Harris Drive
Poca, WV 25159
Phone: 304-755-8311

LoopMaster International Inc.
5700 W. Minnesota, Bldg. E
Indianapolis, IN 46241
http://www.loopmaster.net/
317.246.5667

[chuckdvc]

Had the driller back out today and talked about the problem and possible fixes.
Found out one issue may have been the fact one unit was running about 2 days after it was drilled. I called www.geothermalsupply.com in Horse Cave , KY. The owner told me that the well will get up to 180 degrees when its being drilled and it needs to sit for 7 days before being used. He also told me that in Kentucky its not code to grout the wells so nobody grouts residential systems.

The driller did say they back filled the well with the limestone residue from drilling. He did say he installed a low pressure system for ease of maintenance. There is a tank for each system which is for bleeding air and filling if needed. He did explain that each loop was the same length and pressure tested and flushed. He also explained how he set up the header.

The HVAC guy is going to call Tech support for the unit and go over all the temps & pressures and settings.

Still seems to me we aren't getting enough heat transfer in the ground. It continues.

[tcktech]

:( Why would it take 7 days for the earth to drop the drill temp? If it takes that long to drop from 180f to 68f not a lot of transfer.
We do not drop the drill slag in the wells it will take for ever to pack in and leave open spots in the well.
It may not be CODE but not doing the job right with thermal grout is just WRONG.
I hope you able to fix your system. Best of luck.

[Entropie]

I don´t believe in any way that it takes 7 days for the temperature in the drilling hole to equalize! The average temperature in earth is about 50°F within the dept you mentioned. Have you seen the calculation for the heat transfer rate of the probes how many tons/ft have been estimated and at which temperature level? A 5 ton system has to reject about 6 tons of heat to the ground. This is in your case are 0,008 tons/ft. What is the average temperature spread across the condenser (hot water side outlet - inlet)? It seems that you have 30°F. I would design the system to about 7 to 11°F. Anything higher will cause effciency losses. There can be several reasons for your issue. Poor heat transfer from the probe to the ground, air trapped in the system, low flow rate (15gpm would be right). According to the temperature spread you mentioned you have actually about 5gpm! You could perform what we call in Europe a thermal response test (done by an expert). This would reveal the true capacity of your ground source htx´s.

[Bergy]

Had the driller back out today and talked about the problem and possible fixes. Found out one issue may have been the fact one unit was running about 2 days after it was drilled. I called www.geothermalsupply.com in Horse Cave , KY. The owner told me that the well will get up to 180 degrees when its being drilled and it needs to sit for 7 days before being used. He also told me that in Kentucky its not code to grout the wells so nobody grouts residential systems.

The driller did say they back filled the well with the limestone residue from drilling. He did say he installed a low pressure system for ease of maintenance. There is a tank for each system which is for bleeding air and filling if needed. He did explain that each loop was the same length and pressure tested and flushed. He also explained how he set up the header.

Chuck,

DO NOT PAY the driller until this issue is resolved!! Is the driller a member of, and accredited by, IGSHPA ? (International Ground Source association) You should contact IGSHPA and find out if not grouting a bore hole is "standard practices". You should contact other loopers around your area and ask if they grout vertical bores. Keep notes of who you talked to and what was said. We sub out our loops so I'm not an expert, but I've NEVER seen a vertical bore that was not grouted and damn sure never seen one that had drilling slag dumped back into the hole!! (We have more than a hundred geo installs.) Think of the slag like big grains of dry sand...they are more of an insulator than a conductor. You know how hot the sand is at the beach? Wiggle your toes just an inch or so down and it's nice and cool! The same thing is happening in your loop field.

This driller is feeding you a line of BS. We have never had to allow a rock bore to "sit" for seven days. We usually have our systems running within a day or two of the loops being flushed and filled. I'm no fan of lawyers, but...
I think you need to start keeping records of everything you do getting this resolved.

I wish you the best of luck,

Bergy

[chuckdvc]

Ok got some readings today. Finally had some heat load and the HVAC installer over. It was 90 degrees today. I had the thermostats set at 68 because that's where we like it and I wanted to be sure the system was being worked. The Upstairs 2 ton unit was holding 68 with 55 degree air. The water temps were really high. 125 in and 131 out. The downstairs unit was not holding 68, it was at 70 but 55 degree air. The afternoon sun was shining in the front windows so not to unexpected. The water temps were 112 and 119.

Saturday the Driller came back out but didnt have his temp gauges. He did have pressure. The pressures were like 4 and 12. Cant remember which way.

I feel obligated to let them work it out to get it right but now they both are blaming each other. And apparently the installer around here are all buddy / buddy so its going to be hard to get one to come in on another job.

I may just force my HVAC guy to take the geo back and install regular heat pumps. Then the legal battle will begin. The driller is threatening to put a lien on the house.

Any advise how to proceed or at what point I try to bring somebody in from a different area. Maybe somebody knows exactly what the problem is from what i have presented. You guys seem to know more than the driller/hvac guy/equipment house/geo thermal supplier.

[chuckdvc]

Just got off the phone with the driller who also installed the loops. He is bringing somebody else in but I think he is going to try to blame the HVAC guy for under sizing the system. Now the house is 3500 sq ft with 1000 in the basement. So my question is will 5 tons fill the need and if not will it cause the water temps we are seeing. he is telling me the system was undersized and he just drilled what he was told to. Does that argument hold water?

[tcktech]

:confused:Are your two systems runing off of one well system, or are there two? If the two are runing off one are check valves and flow valves installed at each set of pumps? I would still be looking at well desing as EWT is to high. Without the check valves the water will flow from one unit to the other.
Best of luck.

[chuckdvc]

Its 2 separate systems. a 3 ton unit with 3 wells and a 2 ton with 2 wells. All separate. He did mention he might try combining them but I don't think that's going to help.

[Entropie]

The differences in water inlet to water outlet do indicate that the flow rate is right. The temperature level is to high, you should ask what the original design temperatures where. This does indicate that the capacity of the wells do not match with the capacity of the unit. One possibility could be poor heat transfer which would lead us back to the missing grout! Or the heattransfer rate of the ground has been overestimated. The capacity of your cooling system depends on the water temperature. Your 2 and 3 ton unit are only 2 and 3 tons at design conditions. With higher water temperatures they might be only 1.5 and 2.5 ton units! When you get the water temperature rectified the efficiency and capacity of your system will enhance dramatically! Watch out for the well capacity calculation and compare the design temperatures with the real ones. Try to get additional wells for free or reduced price to meet the designed conditions.

[crash11]

Given your location, your entering water temp. should be at most 65 degrees F with vertical wells properly installed. Now, it's possible for that temp to go up after long run times, but not by much (maybe up to 70 degrees F). I don't think you ever mentioned what kind of entering temps you've been getting if you let your system "rest" for a long time. Even with no grouting and poor heat transfer you should still be able to stabilize with the ground temp, given enough time. Then after a few minutes of running I can see how your temps would climb that high if there was no grouting.

[TECH01]

when I design an Geothermal system, I do my design entering water temp to be around 75-80. Thats for here in Ohio. I also design for 20-25 for heating, and protect with methanol down to 12-14. Ive never had a problem yet, "knock on wood". Havent read the post all the way, but was there a heating and cooling load performed? I would ask to see that. Square footage means nothing when designing Geothermals, theres no "rule of thumb" to follow. What was the heating and cooling load and I can give my opinion of what systems should have been installed. Then we can talk EWT's, sizing and other parameters. just my $.02

[chuckdvc]

The differential is what bothers me. We are only getting a 6-7 degree drop in temp. The flow rate was checked and the 2 ton system is getting about 8 gpm and the 3 ton 10GPM. Yesterday afternoon we were getting 133 out temp and 127 in temp. That was with the house set at 70.

The driller is saying the system is undersized. If it was undersized by 1 ton would it cause temps like this. With both pointing fingers at each other I need to be able to narrow it down. Maybe its a little of both, the units being undersized and the wells not transferring heat properly. The driller is bringing in a guy to do a BTU load on the house. The old heat pump system worked for 10 years with the same tonnage.

At this point if it is undersized will adding a couple wells to each system work? The driller is talking about needing all new duct work and larger units to work properly.

Also on the grouting. What would really help me is knowing if the certifying organization for GEO systems has an accepted practices standard on wells where even though its not required by code to grout in Kentucky it is still the standard for a properly installed well to be grouted.

I am thinking if I add 2 wells to each system that are grouted that this may be the best solution at this point.

I am in a tight spot and any help would be appreciated , I need knowledge to combat this situation.

[Entropie]

As mentioned previously, the cooling/heating capacity of your system depends on the evaporating and condensing temperatures. Higher condensing temperatures cause efficiency and capacity losses. Bring your system down with the heat source temperatures and you will gain capacity!

[jongig]

I read through your thread and if you want to make contact with me I can sure give you some advice that I won't mention here.

If I were you I would go to IGSHPA and find someone in your state certified by the organization and try to get someone in your house to evaluate the situation and advise on how to make it right. If you read through my thread you can see that many didn’t agree but in the end I found that there were principals in GT that should be adhered to and those that were part of IGSHPA had the most knowledge, in my opinion.

You have one chance to get it right and after many stories I’ve read the deck is stacked against you.

John

[Ed lohrenz]

There is no surprise that a system that is not sized appropriately, not designed appropriately and not installed appropriately does not work as it should. There are training courses for both residential and commercial design and installation companies. If someone is installing systems without following the most basic guidelines (calculating heating and cooling loads, estimating the run hours, calculating borehole length based on the geology of the area, designing the system to circulate fluid at the rates recommended by the manufacturers, etc) the system will not perform properly. The ground heat exchanger temperatures will not stay within the range the equipment is designed to operate at and the system will fail. This ain't rocket science, folks. But if you don't know what you're doing you're giving a great industry a bad rap. When you're ready to find out how to do it properly, go to www.igshpa.okstate.edu, or talk to someone who knows what they are doing.

[jongig]

There is no surprise that a system that is not sized appropriately, not designed appropriately and not installed appropriately does not work as it should. There are training courses for both residential and commercial design and installation companies. If someone is installing systems without following the most basic guidelines (calculating heating and cooling loads, estimating the run hours, calculating borehole length based on the geology of the area, designing the system to circulate fluid at the rates recommended by the manufacturers, etc) the system will not perform properly. The ground heat exchanger temperatures will not stay within the range the equipment is designed to operate at and the system will fail. This ain't rocket science, folks. But if you don't know what you're doing you're giving a great industry a bad rap. When you're ready to find out how to do it properly, go to www.igshpa.okstate.edu, or talk to someone who knows what they are doing.


I sure know now that I would never have a system installed again without someone in the project having been trained and certified by IGSHPA.

BTW, a lot of the credit goes to Ed Lohrenz for my system being repaired. Do a goggle and you will be impressed. I had others that were very good with the HVAC but Ed and Dewayne were so much more knowledgeable about geothermal than anyone else. If Ed will give you advice than listen to him and be skeptical of everyone else.

John

[chuckdvc]

My HVAC guy had the Equipment suppliers tech rep out to my house today. They were here for about 3 hours. He has never seen temps like this before except when system was connected wrong and they had hot water from a hot water heater going directly into the heat pump.

Bottom line is the loop isnt operating correctly. He isnt going to say the driller did anything wrong as most systems in Kentucky are not grouted but its just not working.

We are going to shut the system down while we are out of town for a couple days. Then they are going to test the temps and see how long it takes for them to heat up again. After that we will try to get the driller to dig up his manifolds and test, if he will. If not we will have to get somebody else in.

The tech said it didn't matter if the system was undersized you wouldn't see temps this high , water today was 128/135.

[Entropie]

The tech said it didn't matter if the system was undersized you wouldn't see temps this high , water today was 128/135.

Sorry, but this does not allign with the facts i know about HVAC! Your cooling loop is undersized or the heat transfer / conduction in the ground is less then calculated! If the ground loop can´t reject the heat absorbed in the cooling process (due to undersizeing or poor heat transfer), the temperature will raise to compensate until the system is balanced. This point can, depending on the lack of capacity, be beyond the maximum condensing temperature of your HP and the system will trip on high discharge pressure.

[chuckdvc]

Sorry, I wasnt clear. I assumed a reader would have followed the thread, my fault. By undersized I was referring to the under sizing of the system for the house not the loop. The loop is supposed to be correct for a 5 ton unit. 5 150 ft wells.

The driller is claiming the whole system was undersized and causing the problem. The tec said if the whole system was undersized you would see some high temps during heavy load times but no where close to what we have. He also called another person higher then he to confirm. The loops are not performing correctly. We dont know why, yet.

My whole problem is trying to narrow down the problem so we know who is to fix what. The tec confirmed the unit is installed correct and operating. I mean its still running and cooling with these temps, just not efficiently.

Some of the issue he mentioned is a vapor lock but its happening in both systems. The manifold could have been connected wrong or being there is 4 lines coming through the wall could thjey be connected wrong? He also mentioned the possibility of a void in the ground. Bottom line the loop isnt performing.

[chuckdvc]

We did the test by shutting down the system for 48 hours. And then recorded temps on restart. When we first fired it up the in temp was 64.2. it started climbing immediately and within 1 hour the temps were over 110. Now if the loops were working and it was a system under sizing issue as the driller claims it would take longer than that for the well to fail. Its obviously not working at all. Still about a 6-7 degree differential.

Funny thing, may be a coincidence, maybe not, is the 2 systems are working at slightly different temps but the water out on one unit is almost exactly the water in temp on the other unit.

I am planning on giving the driller one more opportunity to fix it then I will have no choice but to get somebody else in to redo or fix it. The cost will be reduced from the drillers funds so he may get paid some and may not. If it cost more than what he charged I will have to just eat it, guess that's the price of getting it done right.

I would appreciate any input from those with the expertise to comment on this issue.

[Ed lohrenz]

It sounds like you're getting little heat transfer between the ground heat exchanger (GHX) pipe and the ground...all that's happening is the heat pump is heating the fluid in the loop and the heat has no where to go. Can you get a drilling log from the driller and post it or send it to me at ed.lohrenz@geoxergy.com? I believe you said the hole was not grouted. If there is no water in the borehole for much of the borehole and the hole is not grouted the pipe may only be hanging in the air....that's one of the reasons it's so important to grout the borehole.

Another thing that might be happening is that all of the air hasn't been flushed from the GHX. One or two of the boreholes may not be flowing because they may be airlocked. Do you have a sketch of the GHX piping configuration? What size pipe from the heat pump to the boreholes, what size pipe in he boreholes? What size tees were used to connect the boreholes to the supply and return lines?

How was the number of boreholes and length of boreholes determined? Was any software used to calculate the borehole length? If you have a set of plans for the house it would be worth doing a proper heat loss / gain calculation, determining the geology the holes are drilled in and doing a proper GHX sizing calculation.

[chuckdvc]

Today we had a meeting of everybody. The drillers came, the contractor who hired them who is also the guy who did the piping and I referred to as the driller. The HVAC guy was here, the rep from the equipment distributor, and a guy the contractor brought who is certified and basically vouched for the contractor.

I found out our wells were about 10-12 ft clay and then solid limestone with no voids. They did backfill with the limestone residue. The pipe in the well was 3/4" with 1 1/4 from the headers/manifold to the units. They said it was a reverse/parallel manifold that couldn't have one loop air locked with the flow we were getting. They did try varying the flow rate without much effect.

At first the certified guy tried to blame the whole thing on not having enough insulation in the attic. He said that my units were actually oversized for the load if i had r30 in the attic, just right for r19. He said i only had R5 because the builder used the pink blow in insulation. But that didnt explain why the ceilings upstairs did not show heat and why we had hot temps when the outside temps we cool, high 70's. It got a little heated when i told him none of this made sense but i would insulate my attic and if that didnt work i was deducting that cost from the bill.

The Equipment tech rep had heard about enough and hooked up some gauges and did some recalculation , they had some discussion and the certified guy then admitted he made a mistake in his assessment and then turned to the drillers and piping contractor and told them they had a problem with heat transfer. Finally we all agreed. What I have been telling him for 6 weeks now. Now to find the problem.

The certified guy then asked the piping guy how much glycol he put in each system. Remember each system had the same problem and the wells are separate systems. Which was another issue that was strange. Come to find out he had twice what he was supposed to have. The capacity of the 2 ton unit was 30 gallons and he had put 10 gallons of glycol in it. They all greed that this was inhibiting heat transfer. Now we wait and see how that goes. They did say it will take several days for the wells to balance back out. I did ask that if the heat wasn't being transferred into the wells then why would they be hot and take so long to recover? Basically if this doesn't fix it nobody knows what else it could be.

[Ed lohrenz]

If there is 10 gal of propylene glycol and 20 gallons of water, the antifreeze concentration is definitely higher than you need. It will affect the heat transfer...but NOT if the system is running at 70 or 90 deg. At those temperatures the flow will be turbulent if you are running at about 15 gpm in 5 circuits of 0.75" pipe. You WILL have a problem when you are heating and the loop temperature is down at 30-35 F. When you have a problem because of high percentage of antifreeze, you are cooling or heating the fluid in the pipe...but you are not affecting the temperature of the ground much because you have a problem with transferring heat to and from the fluid to and from the ground. It will NOT take several days for the wells to "balance out" if this is the problem because you haven't been affecting the ground temperature much in this situation.

You can definitely still have a problem with one or maybe 2 of the loops being air locked. What kind and size of pump was used to flush the air from the loop? Can the driller tell you where the reducing tees were placed in the header? It doesn't sound like the HVAC guy, the equipment rep or the driller have a good handle on what they are doing.

[Bergy]

I found out our wells were about 10-12 ft clay and then solid limestone with no voids. They did backfill with the limestone residue.

The certified guy then asked the piping guy how much glycol he put in each system. Remember each system had the same problem and the wells are separate systems. Which was another issue that was strange. Come to find out he had twice what he was supposed to have. The capacity of the 2 ton unit was 30 gallons and he had put 10 gallons of glycol in it. They all greed that this was inhibiting heat transfer. Now we wait and see how that goes. They did say it will take several days for the wells to balance back out. I did ask that if the heat wasn't being transferred into the wells then why would they be hot and take so long to recover? Basically if this doesn't fix it nobody knows what else it could be.


What are the "certified" guy's cretifications? I do hope you have been keeping a journal about your troubles.

Glycol does reduce heat transfer but I doubt it would reduce it by that much. We, in East central Iowa, add about 25% glycol, so I don't think a 50% mix would have that much of an effect. Make SOMEONE use a refractometer so they know exactly how much glycol is in the system.

I still think this issue all comes back to the missing grout in the bore holes.
You said before that the looper filled the loop with limestone. EXACTLY how was this done?? Was it just rock chips tossed down the hole? Was it a limestone powder slurry that completely filled the hole? Did you ever contact IGSHPA to find out if your looper is certified and if what he did to backfill the holes is accepted practice? Did you ever find out what other loopers in your area do?

Remember, keep good records of who did what, when and what was said...

Bergy

[Ed lohrenz]

The percentage of glycol will definitely have an impact on heat transfer from the ground to the GHX. It is important, as Bergy suggests, that you find out the percentage.

[chuckdvc]

I am skeptical also that this would result in this extreme of a problem. The guys who did the drilling and inserted the 3/4" pipe said they put the powder back in and shook the pipe the entire time to make sure it was settled. One thing that was said was that there wasn't any waste left when they got done so they know it went in the hole.

I did not pay them yet.

The certified guy is not listed on IGSHPA. They told me he was certified and has been doing this for 28 years, he is in Winchester, Ky. He was brought in by the contractor to find the problem. The guy who hooked it up(contractor) has been doing it for 20 years same as the drillers. The contractor who hooked it all up has been talking to a certified IGSHPA company in Horse Cave, KY. The equipment tech has been talking to people in Indianapolis and Nashville. They all say its a heat transfer problem.

I did learn that it is normal practice in Kentucky to back fill with the limestone. These guys all had Geo in their houses and shared their temps, one was 73/84 which would be great compared to what i have.

These holes were very dry, I am wandering if the dryness is inhibiting the heat transfer. Where I am the conservation office said to hit water we would have to drill 1000 ft. may be a stupid question but I have read references that a well needs moisture or water to help transfer.

On the glycol, the capacity is 30 gallons, he had 10 gallon of glycol. They removed 15 gallons and replaced it with water. So by my calculation its 16.6%. They are going to check the mixture at a future date to make sure its good for winter.

The contractor, (hard to know what to call him since he hired the drillers and he didn't do the HVAC part, He just hooked up the headers and ran the lines to the units), brought in a flush cart when they did the adjustment to the glycol. Nobody had any issue with the cart or the way he was flushing. They all agreed that the type of manifold/header (I have heard both terms used) is one that will not airlock if you have flow. He also set this system up with a tank that he says serves to bleed the air if there is any. We are getting good flow, maybe to much. As I have read on here there are differing opinions on the effect of flow rate on transfer. The pro said it didnt matter but on the 2 ton system we are getting the 15gpm, I know its only supposed to be 6. We are going to try adjusting that Fri or Sat. Both the 2 ton and 3 ton have the same pump and tank set up. The 3 ton was at 11gpm I believe.

SO if non of this works where else to look? Ad a couple wells? What else to do?

[Bergy]

1) The guys who did the drilling and inserted the 3/4" pipe said they put the powder back in and shook the pipe the entire time to make sure it was settled. One thing that was said was that there wasn't any waste left when they got done so they know it went in the hole.

2) I did not pay them yet.

3) I did learn that it is normal practice in Kentucky to back fill with the limestone. These guys all had Geo in their houses and shared their temps, one was 73/84 which would be great compared to what i have.

4) These holes were very dry, I am wandering if the dryness is inhibiting the heat transfer. Where I am the conservation office said to hit water we would have to drill 1000 ft. may be a stupid question but I have read references that a well needs moisture or water to help transfer.

5) Nobody had any issue with the cart or the way he was flushing. They all agreed that the type of manifold/header (I have heard both terms used) is one that will not airlock if you have flow. He also set this system up with a tank that he says serves to bleed the air if there is any. We are getting good flow, maybe to much. As I have read on here there are differing opinions on the effect of flow rate on transfer. The pro said it didnt matter but on the 2 ton system we are getting the 15gpm, I know its only supposed to be 6. We are going to try adjusting that Fri or Sat. Both the 2 ton and 3 ton have the same pump and tank set up. The 3 ton was at 11gpm I believe.

6) SO if non of this works where else to look? Ad a couple wells? What else to do?

1) Was it dry powder? Heat transfer through soil depends on several factors. I'm no expert on soils so I won't comment except to say... Compaction is needed. If it is not compacted, the loose soil has tiny air pockets that inhibit heat transfer. Think about sand at the beach... On a hot day the surface is VERY hot, wiggle your toes just an inch or so down and the sand is nice and COOL. Why? Air pockets. Still air is a very good insulator!

2) Good. That's your leverage.

3) Their temps are worthless to you... Apples to Oranges.

4) Water helps aid heat transfer but is not required with vertical loops. A good, compacted, contact between the loop and rock is.

5) Any reverse return loop can have one, or more, loops air locked. The only way to get the air out is with enough water velocity. Your loop pumps do not have enough power to do that so a properly sized purge cart is needed.

Flow rates do matter. 11 GPM where 9 GPM is needed is OK, but 15 GPM where 6 GPM is needed is OVER pumped and needs to be corrected.

6) I have a hard time imagining your frustration but hang in there. Stand your ground and don't allow anything less than a properly operating system.

Bergy

[chuckdvc]

Well it was showing some promise with lower temps but with no heat load. Now that we have had a heat load the last couple days its right back up there. 117/123 and 127/133.

Only thing i can think of now is to abandon the Geo system and go back to heat pumps or ask the drillers if they want to redo it with grout or try adding a a few wells first.

I am pretty discouraged over this and at this point would never suggest
geothermal to anybody. Too many variables, things to go wrong.

[Bergy]

Chuck,

Again, it appears to be a loop problem. So...The ONLY type of loop field that can not be air bound would be a SERIES field. Outside of DX systems, I don't know of any series loop fields. Just because there is flow, does not mean there is flow through each loop in the ENTIRE loop field. If it has been verified that the loop is not air bound you may need to resort to more aggressive demands. Sometimes the threat of litigation can motivate all involved to get things done. Remember, I am NO fan of lawyers...but they can help from time to time.

Bergy

[csealer]

I've actually ran into a similar problem. I didn't install the system but I did have the job of fixing it. The system worked for years then one summer the loop temp sky rocketed. We dug up the loops and found them hanging in air. The grout was put in was gone. The well driller we use came out and started pumping grout into the hole. He kept pumping and the level never came up. The loop pipes ran through a void. As long as the water table was high the unit ran fine but it was a drought year and the water table dropped leaving the pipes high and dry. We wound up mixing limestone screenings with the grout giving it more consistency and were able to fill the hole. It's been running for that way for years now.

Your loop isn't conducting heat. Either the back fill isn't compacted like the loose sand example or a void opened up. Also the pipe takes up room in the hole that was occupied by rock so there should have been a little fill left over.

I believe it's time to break out the backhoe and inspect the boreholes. If the powder is still at the top of the hole pour water down it and see if the temps improve. Dry sand is a poor conductor but wet sand is good. If the powder has dropped It needs to be filled.

[softail124]

You most definetly have a heat transfer/rejection problem with your ground heat exchanger.
We heve been doing geothermal for ten plus years, and I have just recently been igshpa certified. While it may not be required by state code in Kentucky to grout a borehole does not mean it is not nescessary. You need to listen to a organization that has years of testing and experience in geothermal(IGSHPA) ground loop design and testing, versus a state organization with interests only in ground water protection.
Just because the driller filled the hole with leftover cuttings does not mean he has not run into an empty cavern in the ground, thus leaving very large voids around the majority of the pipe that is buried. I have systems ranging from 3 to 14 tons, and not one has an incoming temp over 65 degrees in cooling mode.

[chuckdvc]

Finally after exhausting every other possibility I called the loop guy and asked him if he wanted to fix it or if he wanted me to call somebody else. He said he wanted to make it right and is coming this week to dig up the wells. We will go from there.

First i want to take temps of each well in and out to make sure each line is getting flow. Then fill each well with water. And see what kind of results we get. If there are voids then try and grout those wells as much as possible, Then drill 2-3 more wells and have them grouted. Figure if the 5 existing wells are at 50% capacity 3 more grouted wells should do the job.

Any suggestions on a different approach?

[Ed lohrenz]

If the formation the holes are drilled into have some large voids (caverns), they are pretty much impossible to fill with grout. A driller in Canada has run into this situation and ended up installing a casing through the void (about 30' deep in his situation) and grout the hole and casing. Ask the driller if he ran into some large caverns while he was drilling the holes.

[softail124]

While it is great that the original driller is going to help you out, the only down fall i see is using the pumping capacity on marginal wells. It is unfortunate that you can not have all of the wells performing at 100% since you will be using a certain amount of energy to move the water in them.
Just my opinion

[chuckdvc]

Ed, the void I was referring to was where the hole was not filled in completely and there is nothing around the pipe. The drillers told me that it was solid limestone with no voids after the first 9-10 ft of clay.

Softail, I agree it would be nice if it was all 100% but I am trying to come up with the best solution from this point on. Maybe somebody else will read this and will know to ask for grouting. I suggested to the loop guy that if it was my business i would at least offer grouting. Educate the customer and let them decide.

[softail124]

chuckdvc
please let us know the results, it frustrates me to no end that some of these loop installers do not realize the importance of good thermal conductivity with the ground. It is the basis of performance on any sort of ground heat exchanger, whether it be a vertical. horizontal slinky or otherwise. The proper way to grout a vertical well is from the bottom up with a tremie pipe, thus pushing all of the air and water out of the borehole. Ground source heat pumps are great, as long as they are installed correctly. Do not settle for anything less than what you paid for.

[chuckdvc]

They uncovered it today. One well has had water running in it for hours and it never fills up. A couple are holding water but obviously void toward the top.

[chuckdvc]

2 more.

[chuckdvc]

I climbed down in the hole tonight and felt each line to see if they all were the same temp. My thinking was if one loop wasn't getting hot then maybe there was no flow in that line. All the lines were hot, Would like to take exact temps of each line and compare to the aggregate, maybe that would point out which well is least efficient. I suspect there are bridges and air pockets in the fill all the way down. Some more than others. Completely random based on line location and bridging material. Doesnt look like we can grout these holes as they are. Probably a loss. Would like to determine what capacity they running at so I knew how many more wells to put in. If I am running temps I have reported what are some educated guesses as to how many more I need.

I know if I did this for a living there is no way i would not have a camera to see in each well or not use grout.

[chuckdvc]

I just realized that my post may have been taken as DIY. It is not. I am not doing this myself but my installers are throwing up their hands and most likely dont want to admit the obvious. That is the wells are not working and need to have more wells added for these to work.

One question is would I be better off asking for 5 more grouted wells and abandon the existing ones or find a way to keep the existing ones as they should contribute something. The question I would think is would the extra cost of pumping the water through the inefficient loops negate any benefit gained from those loops. Thats why i am gathering information as I have. I just dont know how to figure it to know what to ask for.

I need to have a sit down with the installer as to what he suggest but need some help so I know how to negotiate with him. I have provided him a link to this forum also and he said he has read it all.

The system is holding temp in the house but its been extraordinarily cool this summer. Given the temps I have what would be a good place to start , add 2 wells to the 3 ton system and 1 to the 2 ton system?

[chuckdvc]

Just talked with the installer. He said when he added some water to the holes after they were uncovered one made a big whoosh sound and it fell. He took a 15ft piece of pipe and jammed it down in the holes and did hit some obstructions at about 10-12 ft. He thinks some or all the wells are like this and material has bridged at that point. According to the drillers this is where the solid rock starts so it may be rough sides at this point with some loose rock.

He has called the drillers and they are going to try to fix this. Not sure how yet. I suggested high pressure water bore if they make something that will work for this application. Then he wants to fill the existing wells with #9 gravel and sand mixture and benonite the top 20ft. he also ad a couple wells. I want to camera the new wells before filling with benonite. I have agreed to pay for the benonite since that wasnt included in the original quote. I also asked him at what point do you just abandon the existing wells but he said we are getting some performance out of them so why not keep using them and just ad a couple wells.

I told him it we may over do it but at this point i would rather over do it than have it not work again.

[Bergy]

chuck,

I think you need to have your basic problem solved. Your loops are NOT in full contact with the ground. This is what you paid for, and should insist on. I don't think adding a "good loop" to a bad "loop field" will resolve your issues. The original work was poorly done and applying a bandaid may provide short term results, but at what cost to long term performance.

Bergy

[softail124]

I agree with Bergy 100%, there is no way I would walk away from a system after performance checking, and finding out the heat extraction or rejection from the ground is anything less than perfect. Get what you paid for, and nothing less. The few bad installs like this are what makes some people a little nervous about installing geo! NEW PROPERLY GROUTED WELLS IS WHAT YOU NEED!!

[Ed lohrenz]

Bergy and Softail are both 100% right on that. There's no point in doing more wells unless they are grouted properly from the bottom up. It sounds like it will be difficult to grout the holes because there are probably large fractures or even caverns in the limestone that the driller has drilled through. One method of dealing with the large fractures is by casing through them and grouting, leaving part of the borehole in the air, but at least the rest of it will be in contact with the ground. This will add significant cost. It might be worth looking at going with a horizontal GHX instead of a vertical GHX if you have the room available.

[Bergy]

Then he wants to fill the existing wells with #9 gravel and sand mixture and benonite the top 20ft.

Chuck,

I'm not sure about the gravel and sand idea. Remember, loose fill with air pockets DO NOT promote good heat transfer. I would contact several other drillers and ask their opinion and possibly retain one's services as your watch dog. The information you have been given to date has not been the best, everything the contractors tell you MUST be taken with a BLOCK of salt!:eek:

Bergy

[chuckdvc]

Just got done with the drillers, they tried to open the clogged holes so they could backfill. We could look down one hole after running water down it and prodding with a 10ft piece of PVC. There were rock ledges constricting the hole. We took temps on each well. We had 1 well that had a 1 degree differential, a 4, a 6, a 7, and 1 with 10 degrees.

After working at it a couple hours and trying different things they decided it was a waste of time and are going to drill new wells. This time with bigger holes until solid limestone is hit then drop down. May even have to case it down to the rock.

My brother installs security cameras and I am trying to get him to rig up a camera we can drop in the hole to see what we have before we fill the new ones.

Now for the fill material. Since nobody grouts here, finding a grout machine isnt easy. The one guy who has one said he has never grouted residential himself, only commercial when required. He is on vacation. I have heard the same thing from several I have talked to. Even heard that the University of Kentucky did a study on the thermoconductivity of different fills and the limestone powder is as good as grout. My son is a student at UK's engineering school so he is trying to get more info on that. But school is out so that may not be easy either. These drillers are confident the lime powder works good but i have to make that call when they drill which could be as early as Thursday.

www.geothermalsupply.com shows 3 different types of grout. Just called them and they said grout was the best to use. Now to find somebody to grout.

[softail124]

chuckdvc
There is a reason that the drillers grout commercial jobs, they are required to, and the engineers know very well the importance of it.
Most residential customers do not know the difference, excluding you who unfortunately had to find out the hard way. While it is possible many drillers have been "lucky" in filling in boreholes with limestone powder and having it work, it just is not a proven method. If the limestone catches and piles up at 25' down, the rest of the hole has no thermal conductivity. When you grout a hole from the bottom up, all of the air and voids are forced to the top as the grout is pumped in. There are manufacturers out there that will rent grout pumps, the driller will simply have to bite the bullet and find a resource for one. If a driller owns a drill rig, and is doing geothermal, he should own a grout pump period.

[chuckdvc]

We are going to use the grout guy that will be back from vacation Sunday. I am also going to drill 1 extra well per unit just to make sure. Dont want to go through any of this again. Knowing what I know now I would gladly pay for the extra 2 wells and the grouting to begin with.

I have contacted UK but am having trouble locating anybody that was involved with the said study.

[chuckdvc]

We ended up doing 3 200 ft wells for the 3 ton system and 3 150 ft wells for the 2 ton system. Here are some pics of work in progress.

[softail124]

I sure like the looks of that grouter! And it even has a sand hopper to mix in sand for a thermally enhanced grout. You most definitely have the right equipment there, try to watch and document the process as it happens if you can.

[dwaynew612]

Where in Ky are you? I'm located in Georgetown and just got my wells done this week. Driller used # 9 washed stone, Said UK did a study and you got approx 10% better heat transfer.

It's been running 3 days and my Entering water is at 85 I've got problems. Not sure what to do at this point. I installed the FHP Aquarious II which has almost the highest EER/COP on the market. I'd like to know more about your grouting, and reasons to use it. I trusted my well driller and Not sure it's going to work.

[Bergy]

Can you have your driller show the "study" cited? Is your driller IGSHPA certified And have knowledge of heat transfer properties of different soil types? Well drillers DO NOT automatically make good loopers!! They are different disciplines, requiring differing skill sets.

The loop requires good soil contact to insure proper heat transfer. Loose gravel is full of air pockets, each one a tiny insulator. Unless the UK has come up with something new...A copy of that study would be very helpful.

Bergy

[Ed lohrenz]

You NEED good contact with the earth. If the driller used washed stone and there is no water in the borehole, there's a lot of air insulating the pipe from the earth...and you WILL NOT get heat transfer. Period!!!!

Grout is used for two reasons. First, to ensure good contact with the earth. Second, to prevent surface water from contaminating any aquifer that might be there and prevent two different aquifers from intermixing.

Silica sand is often added to grout to improve thermal conductivity, because grout by itself only has a conductivity of 0.40 Btu/h * foot * deg F. Adding sand can improve the conductivity to approximately 1.10 Btu/hr * foot * deg F. New grouts are available using graphite that will improve it to approximatel 1.60 Btu/hr * foot * deg F.

If you're already running at 85 F in your loop you've got issues.

ANYBODY that is installing a geothermal system should be asked for their IGSHPA accreditation. If they don't have it...find someone else. That includes both the driller and the mechanical contractor.

If you have the property available, you might also consider installing a horizontal ground heat exchanger...they are generally quite a bit less expensive.

[dwaynew612]

That's my main problem, my driller is IGSHPA certified. The guy that drilled the holes, not the owner of the company, who I talked to extensively before choosing him, He told me if they hit water, they had to use gravel, using drill cuttings would not work because it would clog up and not fill the hole, leaving air. They hit what I would call moisure in the bottom of a couple holes.

I honestly did not care if I had to pay for grout, he told me it just wasn't necessary. Well........ I'm rather PO'd to say the least. I have not paid him yet, so I guess it's new holes and grout this time. Due to my aggrivation, I don't feel I should even have to pay for the grout.

[softail124]

I have to second everthing that Bergy and Ed have said. The problem that we are seeing right now is that everyone is interested in geothermal because of the 30% tax credit. So many people are asking contractors about it, and many good contractors are getting into it, but worse there are probably 2 to 1 that are just wanting to turn a quick buck, doing very poor and uneducated work. So like ED says make sure they are IGSPHA certified, and also make sure THE person doing the install has many succesful installs, and can provide you with references. It appears that your driller did not pay attention when he got certified. Grouting a vertical or horizontal loop is not optional. Ed is also right on the sand, we just got done with four loops, and put 300lbs silica with each grout batch. The other thing I would stress is when the unit is done and hooked up, it needs to be performance tested to see exactly what the heat rejection or extraction is in Btus. This will tell you how mant btus the machine is rejecting to the ground, or in heating mode how many btus is extracting

[Carnak]

Grout is used for two reasons. First, to ensure good contact with the earth. Second, to prevent surface water from contaminating any aquifer that might be there and prevent two different aquifers from intermixing.


if you live somewhere colder you need the grout to prevent water freezing between the pipes and bedrock

[chuckdvc]

Dwayne, I am in Bourbon county. My business is in Georgetown. Did you read this whole thread? You can call me 859-229-4757

When we found our wells not filled completely they wanted to use some #9 stone but I insisted on stone mixed with sand. When they realized it was more work to try and fill the existing holes they redrilled. They did tell me at first if they hit water they would have to use some #9 stone to fill where the water was since the dust wouldn't sink into the water. I went ahead with extra well capacity and enhanced grout. In fact it just got hooked up yesterday.

As far as the UK study I was told by 4 people, even the guy who grouted my wells, that the study was on using the limestone dust as back fill and that it was as good as regular grout. He was supposed to email me the link to the study. I haven't received it yet. I called all around UK and didnt get any help at all. Then I was told the study was 12 years ago. So who knows.

Now I am still not thrilled with my results. Added extra capacity and grouted and now the differential is less than before. About 6 degrees. Not sure if its too soon to tell. The absolute temps are much better 78-82 in and 84-88 out. And that was after several hours of constant running catching up with the air being off. I am hoping it has to all balance out. The backfill from the headers to the house was very warm , not sure how long before those temps drop. It has to have some effect on the temp since its covering 80 ft of the line.

I am curious about the study softail refers to-
"The other thing I would stress is when the unit is done and hooked up, it needs to be performance tested to see exactly what the heat rejection or extraction is in Btus. This will tell you how mant btus the machine is rejecting to the ground, or in heating mode how many btus is extracting"

How is that done?

[dwaynew612]

Ok, so my driller has actually backed up everything he has told me. I was impressed to say the least. He's very well known around my area. The only issue I have at this point is his studies are mainly on commercial wells with # 9 gravel fill. The reports show that is is as good as grout. However on a commercial job where you may have 200-400 wells, if you have 10 that don't perform you would never know it. With 4 wells and you have 1 that isn't performing, that is 25% of system capacity. I've been recording temps and I'm very displeased. Unloaded EWT are running 72-78. As soon as the system loads I jump to 84-88.

This makes me think I don't have heat rejection capacity, or I don't have enough wells. I spent an arm and a leg, and a few other body parts to get the highest EER machine on the market. My entire design was based on a max EWT of 75-80. I've got the FHP Aquarious II unit. it's a 4 ton, but if you look at data it's closer to 5 tons.

I really need some help here. I'm not sure how to proceed at this point. Driller has said he will stand behind it all. I just really want to make sure my unit gets the 25-30 EER that it says it should, otherwise. I'd have gone with a 20-23 SEER air to air unit and avoided all the extra cost and labor I've put into this. I don't think gravel is the problem at this point. I realize I will get a warm loop on a hot day, but with 70 degree outdoor I've got and 85 degree loop. HELP!!!!!

[chuckdvc]

Not sure there is anything else to add to whats already been talked about here.
It took me 11 weeks to get mine sorted out and I think its getting better. I did temps this morning and I had 73 degree IN water then when the system started up the temp increased to 74.6 for about a minute then it dropped to 69 degrees. So I think the warm backfill is effecting it a little for now. My temp out was 79.6. The unit ran for about 10 minutes and cycled off. So we are getting much closer to what we want than the 125 degrees we had before.

I still am curious about the performance test. I did some air temps last night and had 68.5 degree return air and 49 degree supply off the coil.

I think we will start to notice the system balancing out with shorter run times.

[chuckdvc]

I'd have gone with a 20-23 SEER air to air unit and avoided all the extra cost and labor I've put into this.

Dwayne, my system has cost me 5k more than I was quoted to start with now. I insisted on grout and extra capacity. If I had it to do over again at this point I would never do Geo. Now next year if things are good, I have forgotten the hassle and my Electric bill is way down, with the tax savings I may have a different tune.

[Ed lohrenz]

One thing to remember is that SEER & EER are NOT the same. SEER is the seasonl energy effiiency ratio, EER is the energy efficiency ratio. An air conditioner that has a SEER or 22 won't opeate at that efficiency when it's hot outside...when you need it most. A SEER of 22 is about the equivalent of geothermal system with an EER of 16. A unit an EER of 30 or almost double the efficiency of a 22 SEER air conditioner. A ClimateMaster Tranquility unit has an EER of about 15.6 at high speed with 85 F fluid, and at low speed it has an EER of about 17.4. What is the SEER of a 22 SEER AC when outside air temp is 95 F and the condenser coil is dirty???

[dwaynew612]

I'm aware that SEER and EER are totaly different. That is why I chose Geo. I did some resarch and figured out that the new 20 SEER units only had an EER of 13-15 on a good day. And that is with a clean coil in a perfect world. I was just hoping my Geo unit would operate more in the 18-22 EER range. I've got the FHP aquarious II The factory specs are very inpressive, almost identical to ClimateMaster and WF.

[Bergy]

Dwayne, my system has cost me 5k more than I was quoted to start with now. I insisted on grout and extra capacity. If I had it to do over again at this point I would never do Geo. Now next year if things are good, I have forgotten the hassle and my Electric bill is way down, with the tax savings I may have a different tune.

Chuck,

If you had to do it all over again...you could make the process much easier with what you now know.;)

Bergy

[dwaynew612]

Ok, so I've actually e-mailed my driller the excel spread sheet with entering water, exiting water, indoor dry bulb and wet bulb, and outdoor temps.

I haven't heard from him about it yet. Maybe he's thinking there's a loop problem at this point. If I had needed 10 wells to get the efficiency I would have done it.

[Bergy]

Dwayne,

We would really like to see a copy of the report your driller refers to. I would contact IGSHPA and ask if backfilling a residential vertical bore with #9 gravel is accepted practice. Remember, just because your driller is IGSHPA certified does not mean he would not cut corners to pad the profit margins.

I find it hard to believe that the Kentucky DNR has no regulations concerning Vertical bores or domestic water wells!! How can they not be concerned with preserving the quality of the aquifers?? Anything deeper than 20' is considered a well and MUST be grouted in Iowa.

Bergy

[dwaynew612]

Bergy, if you can send me your e-mail address, I will forward you everything my driller has sent me. My main concern is all of his reports are based on commercial loops. 200-400 holes. If you have 10 holes that under perform, you would never know it. With 4 holes on residential. if 1 doesn't you will know it.

At this point I'm afraid I will have to take legal action. He said he would back it up, but when I sent him my loops stats, I haven't heard back from him.

[Bergy]

Dwayne,

Here is the info... craigDOTaircomfortATimonmailDOTcom

Thanks

Bergy

[chuckdvc]

Follow up.

74/81 and 76/83 this afternoon.

One question. As we go through seasonal cycles will we see ground temps swing with the season to the point we will benefit from the temps stored in the ground from one season to the next?

[dwaynew612]

From what I've read ground temp in Central KY is a constant 58 degrees, it does not change. You will get some changes around the boreholes, but the heat should dissipate over the months. You also can store some of the heat for later extraction in the winter. I've always heard you need to start up a system in the spring so you pump the heat into the ground for winter. Not sure how true that is though.

The other thing is there are some reports that show where you can either put too much heat or remove too much. Most of those models are for commercial stuff where you would have more cooling than heating. Some of them show like a 10-15 year model that after that many years of pumping heat in the ground it becomes saturated. It shouldn't be a problem with residential where you have almost equal heating and cooling.

[Ed lohrenz]

A ground heat exchanger (GHX) for any building (residentia or commercial) will gradually become warmer if the building is mostly in cooling mode, or become colder if it is mostly in heating mode. It's quite possible that a GHX will work fine for 3-4 years, but, in a warmer climate, will gradually get warmer and warmer and get too warm to work efficiently. This is the reason that it's important to do a proper heating and cooling load analysis and use appropriate software to model the GHX operation. It does not matter when the system is started up. If the system is started up in spring the ground around the GHX, whether it is a horizontal or vertical GHX, will become warmer, and te heating season will start with a warmer temperature source. If you start the system in fall, the temperature will start at the normal ground temperature (58 F in KY) and will drop over the winter. Heat pumps designed for ground source applications will work efficiently with entering water temperatures below freezing, and will work efficiently with entering water temperatures as high as 85-90 F. I have had a system running in my current home for over 16 years in Canada where we have 10,700 degree days, and the GHX temperature drops to as low as 26-28 F in winter. It works efficiently. The GHX MUST be designed to take into account the annual building heating and cooling loads, the climate, soil temperature, geological conditions, potential aquifers, type of GHX, GHX construction details (size of borehole, type of grout, size of pipe, type of heat transfer fluid and so on) and the software should be used appropriately. If the mechanical contractor and GHX contractor are not taking these things into account and relying simply on "rules of thumb"....RUN as fast as you can from these guys. These systems are not complicated, but there is a proper design process and installation requirements that must be understood and followed. Take the training courses that are out there...offered by IGSHPA...or make sure your contractor has an understanding of the requirements. They should know that a vertical GHX, in almost all conditions, MUST be grouted properly...and that drill cuttings or crushed stone is NOT grout.

[dwaynew612]

Here's my latest with the loop. Driller had his "expert" out to look at my unit and install today. He checked everything and he said it looks like a loop problem. He now wants to know the unit runtimes etc. From what I remember, unit run time shouldn't really be and issue. It's better to run the system unloaded to circulate air and cooling and keep the house even, only load and unload as needed to maintain proper temp. If a system is starting and stopping a lot, that ususally means it's oversized. At least from what some air to air mfgs. have stated.

I still say it's the gravel they used to backfill the holes, is there anyone out there that may have more info on why NOT to use gravel? The answer I am getting is the systems are expensive enough and grout would just make it so people coudln't afford it. I'd rather pay more and have something right than to save a $ and not have it work. If he had told me $$$$$ instead of $$ to be right, I'd have paid. Now I feel it should be on him since he guaranteed I would have a " super sized loop"

[Ed lohrenz]

Again...grout is required to ensure there is contact between the pipe and the soil or rock around it. It also is needed to prevent surface water from flowing down the borehole and contaminating the aquifer or prevent poor quality water from moving up or down the borehole and contaminating the good aquifer. Gravel does not do that. If there is no water in the rock and soil around the hole there is a lot of air in the spaces between the rocks and sand particles of the gravel. Air does not transfer heat well...hence your problem. Grout the holes. Period. If the driller is not grouting you have the kinds of problems you are having. Grout does not add a lot of cost to the system. Find a driller who is capable and willing to grout.

[dwaynew612]

Ok, so the well driller admits there's a loop problem. He wants to dig up the loop, verify everything is piped properly, and if it isn't he's ready to drill a new well. Either another 200' or install a 300' 1 1/4 loop and series it with the existing other wells.

He wants to use gravel or grout, my choice. I will have to pay for the grout, which I don't care about. I've done some research that shows sand as a very good alternative to grout.

Anyone have anymore info on sand?

[Bergy]

If it's wet...maybe. If it's dry...no way! Dry sand is a very good insulator! Remember hot days at the beach with the sand scorching your feet? Wiggle your toes just a couple inches below the surface and it's nice and cool!! Will your driller GUARANTEE, in writing, the sand will remain saturated at ALL times??

Standard practices, approved by IGSHPA, are in place because of research along with trial and error. Did you ever contact IGSHPA to find out if gravel, or sand, is standard practice??? Do it right and you will have a very energy efficient heat pump.

Perhaps you should write a letter to your DNR. Ask why they are not concerned about protecting the aquifers. Do well drillers not have to case a well to prevent contamination?

Bergy

[Ed lohrenz]

Sand will NOT...I REPEAT, NOT...protect any ground water that might be located in the rock through which the borehole is drilled. As Bergy says, if it's dry, sand makes a good insulator. That is exactly why you are having problems with the wells you have not. Please get someone that actually knows something about geothermal systems to help with the design of the system. The well driller obviously doesn't.

Certain types of silica sand, of the proper grain size, are often added to high solids bentonite grout to improve the thermal conductivity of the grout. Sand CANNOT take the place of grout. See previous post from yesterday.

Adding another borehole in series may actually make the system worse because of increased pressure drop of the system and you won't get enough flow through the heat pump to allow it to work.

[geodude]

Use high solid bentonite grout or it won't work.

[air2spare]

here's the grout I used

http://www.supergroutproducts.com/brochure.pdf

[Ed lohrenz]

Absolutely...USE GROUT.

Also, before you get another hole drilled check to make sure that the flow rates and pressure drops are acceptable with the fluid that is being used in the system, or there is another opportunity for things to go south on you. Don't just have another hole drilleda and expect it to work.

[drsmith012]

Chuck,

Looking at your pictures I am curoius as to why you had a vertical loop installed? You seem to have a lot of land for a horizontal loop.

I have a 3 ton envision with a horizontal loop of three parallel loops of 3/4" pipe and each are 300 feet long with about 200' of 2" header pipe. Burried at a depth of three and five feet, my summer entering water temp has never exceeded 80F. It has gotten there but by morning the next day it was back down to 70F. My winter temp got down below freezing the first year I had it 25F entering but the system was turned on mid December. Now the the ground has settled I have never seen the temp go below 35F. This summer I lifited the Y2 wire (full capacity stage) and have been sucessfully colling with my unit on low stage all summer. What is interesting is I can still here the thermostat relay click on and off for full stage but temp remains at set point.

[chuckdvc]

Well system seemed to be working fine. Temps were good on the water. Have not noticed a difference in electric bill but the average Kw used per day dropped from 155 down to 105 for the same period. We had a significant rate increase and why the bill didn't decrease I assume.

Now for the big issue. The 3 ton unit quit working Saturday. Had a new guy who came with good recommendations out today. The compressor is shot. Its a Comfort Air/ Heat Controller system. I called the equipment distributor today and asked them for a new unit since it was so new. He said it would depend on the factory. Then the question came up about me paying the original installer. Like they wouldnt honor the warranty until I paid the guy. I got in the middle of a dispute between the line and pump installer and the HVAC man who bid the job. Basically the HVAC man handed me the others bill which was more then he thought it should be and walked away never to return. Had to explain it all to the Distributors Manager. What a mess. Not sure how this will work out.

Bottom line , use somebody that's knows the system they are installing. The HVAC guy knows his stuff but not GEO. He was a friend who fooled me into believing there wasn't much to it. He used the same tonnage that was in operation as a heat pump. He did no calculations on the home requirements or on the ground capacity. They used rule of thumb 150ft per ton and didn't do grout. I paid extra for the grout and an extra 150ft per unit when they had to drill it over.

Funny thing is I used my friend because I knew if I didn't he would be offended and not be a friend any longer. Now I have had all this trouble and he is not a friend any more anyway.

[chuckdvc]

Ed, we did figure on correct flow. So that worked out fine with the pumps we had.

dr,
To be honest I didnt consider anything else as i was not educated on it. I only learned of different methods after having issues and researching. It is what was presented to me. Knowing what I know now I would probably still go with wells IF I did GEO again. Which i doubt. I would probably look at a hybrid system of some sort. Gas is looking really attractive to me right now.

[jongig]

A ground heat exchanger (GHX) for any building (residentia or commercial) will gradually become warmer if the building is mostly in cooling mode, or become colder if it is mostly in heating mode. It's quite possible that a GHX will work fine for 3-4 years, but, in a warmer climate, will gradually get warmer and warmer and get too warm to work efficiently. This is the reason that it's important to do a proper heating and cooling load analysis and use appropriate software to model the GHX operation. It does not matter when the system is started up. If the system is started up in spring the ground around the GHX, whether it is a horizontal or vertical GHX, will become warmer, and te heating season will start with a warmer temperature source. If you start the system in fall, the temperature will start at the normal ground temperature (58 F in KY) and will drop over the winter. Heat pumps designed for ground source applications will work efficiently with entering water temperatures below freezing, and will work efficiently with entering water temperatures as high as 85-90 F. I have had a system running in my current home for over 16 years in Canada where we have 10,700 degree days, and the GHX temperature drops to as low as 26-28 F in winter. It works efficiently. The GHX MUST be designed to take into account the annual building heating and cooling loads, the climate, soil temperature, geological conditions, potential aquifers, type of GHX, GHX construction details (size of borehole, type of grout, size of pipe, type of heat transfer fluid and so on) and the software should be used appropriately. If the mechanical contractor and GHX contractor are not taking these things into account and relying simply on "rules of thumb"....RUN as fast as you can from these guys. These systems are not complicated, but there is a proper design process and installation requirements that must be understood and followed. Take the training courses that are out there...offered by IGSHPA...or make sure your contractor has an understanding of the requirements. They should know that a vertical GHX, in almost all conditions, MUST be grouted properly...and that drill cuttings or crushed stone is NOT grout.

It always seems to be the same problem Ed, the dreaded "rule of thumb". Thanks to you and a few others I'm past my problem. Last year I was cold in this weather and had a EWT of 26 f and this year I'm warm and the EWT is 34. Thanks in a large part to your help. My question for you here is that I recall you mentioned to me that the EWT should not in my situation go lower than 18 degrees from the static temperature which for me was 48f. Is this the same when going up?

Go IGSHPA.

John

[djastram]

Has someone done a pressure drop on the coax coil?

We had a unit locking out on "Low flow" even though the flow was within the MFG specs and the sg of the fluid was well below the lowest exit temp.

We measured the pressure drop through the coax, and found it was too low. Added a two pump flow center, pressure drop is in MFG specs... so far so good.

[chuckdvc]

Update. Was having an issue with the system locking out and going into recovery. It was getting worse and just was not working. Called a new tech. Just had the guy back who changed the compressor out and he said it was low on freon. Still wasn't working so called a new guy who worked on a friends system.

He came out to diagnose and found the expansion valve was bad. Told me that there was a bad run of these back when the unit was manufactured. I contacted heat controller about it and sure enough the warranty on these had been extended for 5 years. So they sent a new valve next day air free of charge and then paid the labor to switch it out. Would have been nice if they would have told us about this months ago when we contacted support. With the new valve it now works just fine. It will hold 69 in the house on a 95 degree day. The new tech is named Troy and he told me he hasn't installed a Geo system in several years now that the new heat pumps have such high seer ratings.

So kudos to Heat Controller for standing behind their product. And going to close this thread out.

[stickinit2thman]

Ed, we did figure on correct flow. So that worked out fine with the pumps we had.

dr,
To be honest I didnt consider anything else as i was not educated on it. I only learned of different methods after having issues and researching. It is what was presented to me. Knowing what I know now I would probably still go with wells IF I did GEO again. Which i doubt. I would probably look at a hybrid system of some sort. Gas is looking really attractive to me right now.So you too think we have plenty!People please get away from fossil fuel heat! You people understand basic physics right? What happens to unbalanced wheel!?What happens when you run outta gas in your car?Well weather you like it or not were running out!All this fracking for gas?Its because weve just about exhausted easy to recover oil.Why do you think they are developing these new methods?Because they have to!Were sucking her dry!Wake up get behind renewable energy!Its all were gonna have one day!Please think of the future,dont any of you have kids and grandkids?Sheez
Get a grip people!No consideration for anything but now and money!Lets get together and be a leader not followers. Our industry could be a big influence on the future of the world! Nah well be dead by then,rather have money:gah::gah::gah:

[stickinit2thman]

Update. Was having an issue with the system locking out and going into recovery. It was getting worse and just was not working. Called a new tech. Just had the guy back who changed the compressor out and he said it was low on freon. Still wasn't working so called a new guy who worked on a friends system.

He came out to diagnose and found the expansion valve was bad. Told me that there was a bad run of these back when the unit was manufactured. I contacted heat controller about it and sure enough the warranty on these had been extended for 5 years. So they sent a new valve next day air free of charge and then paid the labor to switch it out. Would have been nice if they would have told us about this months ago when we contacted support. With the new valve it now works just fine. It will hold 69 in the house on a 95 degree day. The new tech is named Troy and he told me he hasn't installed a Geo system in several years now that the new heat pumps have such high seer ratings.

So kudos to Heat Controller for standing behind their product. And going to close this thread out.

Cuck you made the right decision on system types just not so much on contractors.Please dont let a few bad apples spoil your outlook.You have done your part on eliminating fossil fuels for home heating,I thank you and my daughter and her future children thank you also.Gas&Oil's time is limited,regardless of our opinions there is only so much!Already were running short of easy to recover oil and its just going to keep increasing in price:.02:,so thanks again,and also you found the best site in the world for HVAC.So its all downhill from here.Oh i think they finally got you fixed up. Hoping you have no more problems. Stickinit2thman

[cdhand]

My friend I see this world very different than you. First let me say that I have geothermal in my house and both my wife and I drive priuses . My reason is that I don't want to send money to people that want me and our way of life destroyed. I just don't want to help them in their goal. But I get a great peace in knowing that God made both me and this world, he gave me limited power, I cannot save or destroy this world. It will end on his time not mine. I know where I will be and I hope to see you there also. God Bless