Equipment Review and Chicago Area Referral

[Everlast]

I have a few questions about the system equipment I plan on having installed and also a referral for a "quality" HVAC contractor in the western suburban Chicago area.

My house is about 1,000 square feet, 37 years old (original HVAC equipment) with R-13 walls, way too little blown-in attic insulation, and leaky single pane windows (all of which are on my "list" of things to get fixed - Once I find a job!). My "better half" really prefers Trane (it's what my mother-in-law has) but an American Standard system would also be fine.

Equipment list -
Trane XV95,60k BTU, variable speed furnace - TUH2B060A9V3VA
Trane XR13, 2.0 Ton, R-410A, AC - 4TTR3024A1000A
Trane 2.0 Ton, Cased Coil - 4TXCB025BC3HCA

Questions -
1. What thermostat would you recommend? A Trane unit or a Honeywell IAQ?
2. What humidifier would you recommend? Trane unit or an Aprilaire 500 / 600?
3. What about the coil? I was told in the past that a 2.0 Ton AC system is more "efficient" when matched with a 2.5 Ton coil. There also appears to be a "High Efficiency" coil available - 4TXCB003CC3HCA. What makes it more efficient (appears to be a bit larger in height) and is it worth asking about?
4. I am totally ignorant about the "filter". I am only used to the cheap, 1" filters that you replace every month. I don't think I want an electronic $$ filter, and really don't know about the details of a 5" media box. Why does one contractor want to build this box and one want to buy it pre-fabricated?

Referral -
Can you recommend a "quality" HVAC contractor in the western suburbs of Chicago that would want to work with me (please see my "Everlast" comments in this thread - http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=292812 )?

Thanks,

[mechguy]

I just had a new furnace installed in April (I'm in Wheaton). I had gotten many quotes on AS and Trane, had it narrowed down to two contractors one AS and one Trane but in the end decided to go with the one who carried AS. So far, very happy with the installation and the performance of the equipment.
This is what I ended up with:

AS Freedom 95 80k, AUH2B080A9V3VA
AS 500 power humidifier
Honeywell IAQ stat

I decided against the media filter for now, have been using the True Blue MERV7 1" filters from Menards. Has not been a problem, changed it twice so far. May go with the media filter when I have to replace the AC.

If interested, I will give you the information later tonight. All my paperwork has been filed away.
I could also include the Trane dealer, I felt he would do a good job as well.

[Everlast]

Mechguy,

Yes, I would appreciate it if you could send me both the AS and Trane contractor information. You will have to look at my profile to get my email address as I don't think they allow it in a forum thread. Thanks

[tinner73]

don't forget your power vent water heater.;)

[BaldLoonie]

tinner, get off your butt and get out there and help the guy! Then post the results on the WOP!

[tinner73]

tinner, get off your butt and get out there and help the guy! Then post the results on the WOP!

i've been out there....nice guy. i gave him some numbers on that RGRL that i pm'ed you about....but i think his better half may be a little Trane-washed.:D so we will see.

[Everlast]

Got a much better quote from for the same system in American Standard colors. The contractor / owner provided the quotes and assured me that his techs are the "best of the best" and did provide good references -

American Standard Freedom 95 Furnace - 60k BTU, P/N AUH2B060A9V3VA
American Standard Allegiance 13 A/C – 2.0 Ton, R410A, P/N 4A7A3024A1000A
American Standard 2.0 Ton cased A coil, P/N 4TXCB025BC3HCA

Ok, got the "coil" question figured out.

But still uncertain about the thermostat. Does the thermostat in anyway "enhance" the default operation of the equipment? Can I eliminate the separate remote humidifier controller if I get the "right" thermostat? Does the base equipment handle the optimal de-humidification / AC using it's own sensors / brains or does the "right" thermostat provide that? Fancy touchscreen doesn't mean much to me unless the thermostat it is part of, provides some additional benefit to the system. The reason I ask is that the quotes I have received all specify different thermostats (from "your old one is fine" to Honeywell IAQ which I am assuming is the "best" for whatever reason). How do I choose the "right" thermostat for me? Is there a thread on this format that goes into detail about thermostat selection?

I also need to firm up my filter choice. I think that I will go with a 5" filter but which manufacturer? The Trane / AS replacement filters are awful expensive. What about Honeywell or Air Bear?

Tinner73 - you were at the top of the list (I thought you were very knowledgeable and quality driven - and also a nice guy :), but the system must be Trane or A/S. Honey Bunny wouldn't like it if I switched brands and I am just getting tired of doing the research on this project (need to spend more time looking for a job instead!).

Thanks,

[BaldLoonie]

The IAQ would interface with the variable speed blower to slow it down for extra dehumidification in the summer. It would also control your humidifier to avoid having the cheapo mechanical one that probably isn't accurate.

So honey bunny is Tranewashed? :eek:

[jerryd_2008]

... Ok, got the "coil" question figured out ...

Everlast, what did you figure out on the coil and does that include reliability? I am swimming in the sea of coils now for a dual fuel system.

PS: Lived in Naperville for 28 years before the move to Northwest Arkansas.

[Everlast]

BaldLoonie -
Thanks for the information. I think that I will ask for the Honeywell IAQ as I don't need another external control that I have to deal with (I am assuming that it will interface to most major brands of humidifiers - right?).

To tell you the absolute truth both Honey Bunny and myself are "Trainwashed":) It would be another month if I had to go and decide among the different brands, and Trane - A/S, because of marketing or other reasons, does seem to have a good reputation. After all it's not the equipment, it's the installation :D

jerryd_2008 -
The cased coil I was asking about is meant for the 20 SEER A/C. The A/S contractor got on the phone and asked his distributor about it when I asked. Don't know why (maybe it uses some elses coil). The other half of my coil question was answered when I found (the internet is a wonderful tool!) product documentation links to A/S technical literature on the local A/S distributor site. You won't find this on the normal A/S site and I don't know why they make it so hard on a person who is really interested in finding this information. The coil literature detailed the EER, SEER, CFM, Total Capacity, Sensible Capacity,... of specific condensing units matched up to different coils, i.e. a 2 Ton condensor with a 3 Ton coil. I still have to review the information for my configuration to see if a larger coil buys me anything (except more $$).

Did do a 180 on my filter choice though, will probably now ask for a 1" electronic filter from either Dynamic or Electro Breeze. Don't know if I am being suckered but the information out there seems to indicate this is a no-brainer. Very good filtering with reasonably priced replacement filters, all at very reasonable price (if they do what they say they do) in a 1" form factor.

Thanks,

[beenthere]

Did you see what the PD is on those 1" filters.

They may do more harm then good, if its too high.

[Everlast]

beenthere -
I have no idea. Since the Dynamic brand was recommended by a contractor I assumed that it would be fine.

The Electro Breeze site had this information -
0.12" W.G. @ 300 Cfm

Is this good or bad?

Thanks,

[beenthere]

Thats probably .12" wc, at 300FPM.

At how many CFM though?
The 300FPM is good. If its at the CFM your system will be moving.

Just because a contractor recomended it. Doesn't always mean its the right air filter.

[BaldLoonie]

No Dynamic or the like!!! Air Bear, Aprilaire, Honeywell media type!

[Everlast]

BaldLoonie -

I did get the text right for the specification, but really don't know what it means (good / bad?). See A3.0 and C7.0 at this link -

http://www.electro-breeze-supply.com/electrostatic_air_cleaners.html

I see that you are not a fan of this type of filter. Can you tell me why (I really am trying to learn as much as I can before plunking down some serious $$ for my system).

Thanks,

[dash]

Just call TEC Mongo,ask for Jimmy O.,he'll know who to call in shy town!

[neophytes serendipity]

Wish I had seen this thread a couple of days ago...

:D

[praha99]

One of these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/DanBaloun/interlong008.jpg


one of these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/DanBaloun/interlong001.jpg


25' of this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/DanBaloun/interlong004.jpg


last but not least.. at least two of these for good measure:)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/DanBaloun/communicating.jpg


oh look I even found 2


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/DanBaloun/delasallefunnace010.jpg

there ya go all set!

[Everlast]

beenthere (or anyone else) -
Pressure Drop for a filter = 0.12" W.G. @ 300 Cfm. Ist this good or bad.

BaldLoonie -
Why don't you prefer wide, passive filters over the Dynamic / Electro Breeze active filters? Is there a thread or website that goes over the pros / cons of these two types?

dash -
Who is "TEC Mongo"? I don't see him listed as a member of this forum.

neophytes serendipity -
I did try to make contact with you early on in my quest for a replacement HVAC system, but you have no contact information in your profile. I even sent and email to a listed "friend" of yours (works in Oswego I believe) to see if he could provide contact information, but he did not replly.

praha99 -
What a small world we live in. Looks like you do good work (but I really am not a qualified judge of HVAC workmanship), but I think I'll pass on receiving the system quote that we had discussed. Not trying to be confrontational, but some of your posts on this site are not customer friendly - "stupid list", "sharks smelling blood in the water". Also, I see a 16SEER unit in one of your pictures. I can see is no practical payback in this area (Chicago) for this unit over a 13SEER. Mother-in-law was recently sold one of these because she was told that it was a "better" unit.

Thanks,

[beenthere]

If that .12"wc at 300 CFM.

Then its too small.

In cooling mode, the furnace will basically be moving 800CFM.
In heating mode, at a 65° temp rise, the furnace will want to move 810 CFM.

So if that really .12" at 300 CFM, then when your furnace tries to move 800CFM, it could rise to .85", which will shorten the life of your VS blower motor.
And furnace heat exchanger.

[praha99]

As I`ve said, no problem, I`m swamped right now. A couple folks in the office use this account.. sorry if some don`t sugar coat things.

However, if you`re accusing me of selling someone something they don`t need, lets stop right there. I spent 2.5 hours with this customer going over the equipment options. She wrote EVEYTHING down.
It`s not always about the payback, for some people it`s about the comfort, a communicating system starts at 16SEER, she wanted communicating system. 2 stages of cooling dehumidify like no 13 SEER can
She had 4 other estimates, and it was a recommendation from the neighbor who got a 13SEER. I don`t push anyone into anything.

[Everlast]

praha99 -

I sincerely apologize for suggesting that perhaps your customer did not
have a clear idea as to the cost / benefits ratio associated with a 16SEER
unit in this area. I do not know why your customer choice that unit and I
shouldn't have speculated.

I just had the thought of my mother-in-law's experience in my head (over-sold on equipment) and wrongly assumed it may have occurred in this situation.

It was a bad morning for me (details in the email I sent you).

You have been very clear in your dealings with me and your company has a great reputation.

I hope you accept this apology. I have received most all the information that I was seeking as a result of this forum, and appreciate the time that HVAC professionals take to help out knuckle-headed homeowners (and engineers).

Thanks,

[neophytes serendipity]

beenthere (or anyone else) -
Pressure Drop for a filter = 0.12" W.G. @ 300 Cfm. Ist this good or bad.



neophytes serendipity -
I did try to make contact with you early on in my quest for a replacement HVAC system, but you have no contact information in your profile. I even sent and email to a listed "friend" of yours (works in Oswego I believe) to see if he could provide contact information, but he did not replly.


Thanks,

.12" at 300 cfm is bad.

2 tons of airflow = 800 cfm.

Static pressure is a squared function, so it is more than 2.6 x .12" >>> (800 cfm / 300 cfm = 2.6)

Standard blower = .5" total ESP and that filter will eat that all up... without adding in the coil or ductwork.

Are you sure it didn't say .12" at 300 FPM? Then you need to know the filter size to get to CFM and sp at the CFM of your system.

Check your email.

[beenthere]

[QUOTE=neophytes serendipity;3455592
Are you sure it didn't say .12" at 300 FPM? Then you need to know the filter size to get to CFM and sp at the CFM of your system.

Check your email.[/QUOTE]

On there site, it does list it as tested at 300CFM.
The next filter is tested at 500CFM

Crappy filters.

[neophytes serendipity]

On there site, it does list it as tested at 300CFM.
The next filter is tested at 500CFM

Crappy filters.

Electro Breeze?

This page: http://www.electro-breeze-supply.com/support-files/c70_pressure_drop_vs_air_velocity.pdf gives specs in FPM, not CFM. Too bad a size isn't listed.

[beenthere]

If you use that chart.
And plot out 300CFM at .12" look how low the FPM needs to be.

[neophytes serendipity]

If you use that chart.
And plot out 300CFM at .12" look how low the FPM needs to be.


Please look at the chart again.

I can't see any references to CFM anywhere on it. The bottom line is FPM. Right and left vertical numbers are "wc and pa.

Of course, the numbers are meaningless because they do not give a filter size.

Am I missing something?

[beenthere]

Right, it only has FPM.
But, if you plot a point on that chart at .12" static.
Use that as your 300CFM from the other sheet, look at the FPM you wouold be at.

[neophytes serendipity]

Well, it still doesn't make any sense to me.

The bottom chart is for their 2" filters, and it still lacks CFM numbers.

I found another sheet on their website that shows recommended flow rates, but that spec sheet doesn't give pressure drop readings.

If you want to make a quickie drawing or something and PM it, maybe that will help.

[beenthere]

I'll see if I can make one tomorrow.

[dash]

TEC Mongo,is a distributer,check your white pages.

[Everlast]

dash -
I did find the website for TEC M"u"ngo, but unfortunately they don't carry Trane or American Standard so I wouldn't think that they could help me find a contractor for these brands.

beenthere / neophytes serendipity -
I did call Electro Breeze and asked them about the static pressure concerns expressed on this site. I spoke to a very nice man in tech support who also happended to be one of the engineers / founders of the company.

He was a bit hard to understand because of his "Canadian" accent and also because I am not familiar with pressure drop issues. He said that they have used millions of these units in commercial applications and have only recently pushed into the residential market. When I talked about the almost universal negativity on this site about Dynamic type filters, he said that their marketing department was trying to address mis-information and concerns about their product. He told me that there was only a .02" difference in initial pressure drop between their filters and the large pleated filters but that their filters performed better because the increase in pressure as the filter becomes loaded is less over the recommended change interval than the 4-5" pleated filters. He was very firm in his conviction that his filters were superior, especially if small particles are a concern.

Does this make sense? Is it true that a 4-5" pleated filter has a .19" drop right out of the box?

Thanks,

[neophytes serendipity]

Page 3: http://www.pexsupply.com/specsheet/Honeywell/Honeywell-F100F-Installation.pdf

[Everlast]

neophytes serendipity -

From the Honeywell graph for a 16 x 25 filter, it looks like about .07" @ 800cfm and from what I can understand, the Eletro Breeze / Dynamic information indicates about .21" @ 800cfm. But the Honeywell spec sheet recommends replacement at .50". So is the .21" initially performance of the Electro Breeze (with a gentler decay in performance) any worse than using the Honeywell?

Thanks,

[beenthere]

.5 gives you about the max usefull life of the HW filter. but is more then most systems can handle.
The Honeywell is better for your equipment.

[neophytes serendipity]

neophytes serendipity -

From the Honeywell graph for a 16 x 25 filter, it looks like about .07" @ 800cfm and from what I can understand, the Eletro Breeze / Dynamic information indicates about .21" @ 800cfm. But the Honeywell spec sheet recommends replacement at .50". So is the .21" initially performance of the Electro Breeze (with a gentler decay in performance) any worse than using the Honeywell?

Thanks,

If your blower is rated at .5" of ESP... that isn't a very big number.

.21" is almost half (clean filter)... then you have a wet A coil... then the ductwork...

Seems to be a pretty clear choice given the specs you have provided.