Removing one radiator from the system

[Frank_Cumming]

Hi,

We have radiator heat in our house. We are remodeling the bathroom and do not want the radiator there anymore b/c it's big and taking up a lot of space from this small bath. Instead, we are going to use a heat lamp.

Anyway, my contractor said he drained and caped the in and out pipes and then removed the radiator. I remember that another contractor we interviewed before said that you cannot simply remove a radiator like that ... something about the water will still circulating the whole system and by removing one of the many radiators it will upset the system .... I really have no clue. What is the right procedure of removing one radiator from a system?

Thanks in advance.

[beenthere]

Depends if our system is a monoflo or not.

Ask your contractor what type system it is.

[Frank_Cumming]

Thank you. I definitely will ask him. But for my own education (so that I don't sound like a jack xxx when I ask him), just what is a monoflo system? By the sound of it, is it like a serial circuit in electricity (as oppose to a a parallel circuit)?

The system in this house is not zoned and when I turn off one radiator anywhere in the house, the rest of them still work the same. Is this indicative that I don't have a monoflo system?

[beenthere]

Thats a good indication that its not a monoflo.

Mono flow piping is a single supply only pipe. No return pipe.

[ascj]

Thats a good indication that its not a monoflo.

Mono flow piping is a single supply only pipe. No return pipe.

I have to disagree with you. If you can valve off a radiator and still get flow(heat) in the other radiators, then it is probably a monoflow. The other common setup is a continuous loop, which if you valved off a radiator, it would stop flow in the loop.

You also have the direct supply/return piping setup, which is very uncommon. But removing a radiator from it won't effect it.

[beenthere]

I have to disagree with you. If you can valve off a radiator and still get flow(heat) in the other radiators, then it is probably a monoflow. The other common setup is a continuous loop, which if you valved off a radiator, it would stop flow in the loop.

.

Monoflo is a continuous loop.

With some water being diverted to the emitter, and then back to the same pipe.

Close off the rad valve, and you lessen the GPM through the pipe.

[sprintmj19]

Where does the gpm go?

GPM stays the same, velocity increases.

[beenthere]

Where does the gpm go?

GPM stays the same, velocity increases.
No, GPM drops off.

The circ can only move X amount of water againt X amount of head pressure.

Closing off one rad, could drop the GPM that its not noticed, or to well over 1 GPM. Depending were the rad is in the piping configuration. A rad that is lower then the main pipe would have a large head increase, since it would have 2 mono tees.


You don't really think a 007 moves 22 GPM against 12 foot of head do you.

[ascj]

No, GPM drops off.

The circ can only move X amount of water againt X amount of head pressure.

Closing off one rad, could drop the GPM that its not noticed, or to well over 1 GPM. Depending were the rad is in the piping configuration. A rad that is lower then the main pipe would have a large head increase, since it would have 2 mono tees.


You don't really think a 007 moves 22 GPM against 12 foot of head do you.

Sorry Double post.

[ascj]

No, GPM drops off.

The circ can only move X amount of water againt X amount of head pressure.

Closing off one rad, could drop the GPM that its not noticed, or to well over 1 GPM. Depending were the rad is in the piping configuration. A rad that is lower then the main pipe would have a large head increase, since it would have 2 mono tees.


You don't really think a 007 moves 22 GPM against 12 foot of head do you.

A 1" monoflow has 14.5cv and 1 1/4" has a 24cv with the side outlet capped. (with only a one fitting setup) Your typical residential system isn't moving enough water to cause a issue.

[coolwhip]

Jinx!:p

[beenthere]

A 1" monoflow has 14.5cv and 1 1/4" has a 24cv with the side outlet capped. (with only a one fitting setup) Your typical residential system isn't moving enough water to cause a issue.
Seen a lot of them that someone capped one off.
And the people didn't have good heat afterward.

At what GPM are those ratings?

[ascj]

Seen a lot of them that someone capped one off.
And the people didn't have good heat afterward.

At what GPM are those ratings?

CV ratings is the gpm to cause 1 psi drop. So a 14.5cv rating, would have a 1 psi (2.31 head) drop with 14.5 gpm across the valve.

So for example, you are moving 7 gpm through that valve that has a 14.5cv rating, you pressure drop will be .23psi (0.53 head) But that is based on the side plugged, which is what you size you head for even with the side piped to a radiator. So capping a monoflow does not make much of a difference in gpm.

But I have to agree, if I remove a radiator off a monoflow setup. I will either remove the tee's or connect the tee branches with a length of copper. That way I will reduce the head, instead of increasing it.

[beenthere]

LOL... Sorry. I was being a bit srcastic in the other post. And didn't put a sarcastic face in it.

I probably have the same B&G charts/PDFs.

But, B&G also recomends that you don't plug a branch line.
They recomend you either pipe them together. Or remove teh tees and straigh pipe the sections together. Or you will lower flow.

[ascj]

LOL... Sorry. I was being a bit srcastic in the other post. And didn't put a sarcastic face in it.

I probably have the same B&G charts/PDFs.

But, B&G also recomends that you don't plug a branch line.
They recomend you either pipe them together. Or remove teh tees and straigh pipe the sections together. Or you will lower flow.

And I also edited my post while you were posting and we said the same thing. It's just one of them situations were the type of piping and how much, will be the deciding factor.

Imagine that with hydronics?

[beenthere]

Imagine that with hydronics?

Its almost like moving air. :D

[ascj]

Its almost like moving air. :D

But easier, no gravity.

[beenthere]

What. You mean gravity how water heat doesn't work anymore. :)

[Frank_Cumming]

Mmmm. I am truly in over my head now w/ all these technical stuffs you guys are talking about. Anyway, it may be too late already ... before I know it, the contractor has already buried those pipes from the radiator under 3" of cement ... Is there a way for me to find out whether he did it right or not? My contractor's performance has been getting worse and worse as time goes by and I don't think I trust him anymore ... so simply asking him won't help me much.

[ascj]

Mmmm. I am truly in over my head now w/ all these technical stuffs you guys are talking about. Anyway, it may be too late already ... before I know it, the contractor has already buried those pipes from the radiator under 3" of cement ... Is there a way for me to find out whether he did it right or not? My contractor's performance has been getting worse and worse as time goes by and I don't think I trust him anymore ... so simply asking him won't help me much.

Is this a mechanical contractor that has done this work? If not, then why not pay a mechanical contractor (that is experienced with boiler) to come take a look.

[Frank_Cumming]

That's a option that I try to avoid ... I have sunk so much money into this renovation already ... been ripped off by a couple of "contractor" and "plumbers" already ... This bathroom is the last thing I need to get done b4 taking a break from this whole thing ... Is there a web site I can go to learn a little bit about this and try to figure it out myself ... really, paying more money to have someone to check it out is kinda difficult for me right now, money-wise speaking.

[ascj]

That's a option that I try to avoid ... I have sunk so much money into this renovation already ... been ripped off by a couple of "contractor" and "plumbers" already ... This bathroom is the last thing I need to get done b4 taking a break from this whole thing ... Is there a web site I can go to learn a little bit about this and try to figure it out myself ... really, paying more money to have someone to check it out is kinda difficult for me right now, money-wise speaking.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/heating_howcome3.cfm

If it's a monoflow (diverter tee) setup, which we still haven't established. But there is ton a useful stuff on that site.

[Frank_Cumming]

Thank for the link. It's very helpful. Oh, I just thought of one thing I can try ... let me run it by you kind folks.

If I have a single loop system, doesn't it mean that some of the remaining radiators will NOT heat up anymore if I turn on the heat now? Vice versa, if I have a 2-pipe system, then, ALL of the remaining radiators should still heat up. Right?

Is this the right experiment to carry out? And, if I do have a single loop system, will turning on the heat at this stage (having one of radiator removed) cause any damage (water or otherwise) to the system/house?

[beenthere]

No.

The other rads will still get hot if its a monoflo.

But, will they get hot enough when its near your design conditions is what you wouldn't know.

Any contractor that knows hydronics, willknow if you have a mono or not. Just by looking at your piping.

[Frank_Cumming]

Yes, you are right ... I look at the diagram of the single loop system again and see that my experiment will not tell me much. Anything else I can try, short of asking him to break the new floor (thank god he have not tiled it yet) to show me the pipping?

Any contractor that knows hydronics, will know if you have a mono or not. Just by looking at your piping. He is not a licensed HVAC contractor. I hire him to rebuild the bathroom ... builds walls and put in a new shower, etc. And by speaking with him, I don't think he knows much about HVAC .... unfortunately.

[beenthere]

Have you established yet.
Weather your system is a monoflo or not.

If it is a monoflo.
No way to know if he did it right or not. other then either, asking him. Or, waiting to see how well it heats this winter when it gets real cold out.

[Cold Feet]

He is not a licensed HVAC contractor. I hire him to rebuild the bathroom ... builds walls and put in a new shower, etc. And by speaking with him, I don't think he knows much about HVAC .... unfortunately.

Strongly suggest you have someone trained & qualified look at what this guy did to your heating system ASAP.

You really don't want 170 degree water spraying out of the pipes if he didn't cap them properly. You really don't want any debris he might have dropped in the pipes destroying your boiler.


Incidentally, what's the heat loss in your bathroom? A 375 watt heat lamp is only good for ~1200btu.

[Frank_Cumming]

I asked him and he assured me that #1 the 2 pipes were capped very securely. #2, our system is not a single loop ... he said he saw that there was a separate return pipe. Well, he still has another bathroom and there is another rad. I will remove from there too. So, I guess I can see for myself when he breaks open that floor later on.

Hey, I really get into reading that page ascj linked to. Just for my own education ... if I understand it correctly, in a monoflo system:

#1, the rad. that are at the end of the loop are less hot than those in the front the front of the loop.

#2, if I valve off one rad., the rest of the rad. behind it will not get as much flow and, hence, heat, as b4 when all the rad. are in circulation.

Right?

[beenthere]

Correct.