oil failures on rack systems

[jaybee]

Was working on a hussman rack the other day with 5 compressors where i found comp #2 off on oil. This oil system has a Y825-2 contolling the oil to the compressors. Observed oil level befoere starting compressor was 1/2 sight glass.Reset and begin checking for pressurized crankcase, check was good ,contactor was changed,no current sencing relay on the system,noticed that after running for couple hrs oil level had drooped to about a 1/3 but oil net pressure stayed steady from 40# to 43#. This is and R-22 rack with hot gas defrost . Put systems in defrost on the header that where near that compressor no indication that hot gas was blowing by in the suction maifold,checked y825 not exactly sure if i check it operation correctly but i closed off the flow to the oil pots and checked the pressure at the end of the oil supply suctioin psi is 10# and i got 55# on the oil line .40# above suction i thought that it should be around 10 to 25 # .While typeing this i just realized i didnt check demand colling operation and dischrage temp.Resevior had one ball up.What elese can cause this any replies are thanked in advance. What are some of you guys procedures for finding solution to such problem.

[engineerdave]

Dude -

Oil systems can be fun or your worst nightmare. Way to be thorough in your diagnostics, many guys would've immediately tried to adjust the float. This is one situation were truly "going back to basics" is recommended. Slow and Steady will win the day.

Only Comp 2 is slow-fill? Okay. Feel the body - is it warmer than the others?

Is your Compressor actually low on oil, or do you have a situation with your Oil Fail device? There is a strainer screen and o-ring in the tip of the probe.

Check the Oil Fill Control Inlet Screen for blockage.

Check any other line filters for restrictions.

How many years (decades) since last oil change?

Liquid level?

Oil in the bilges anywhere?

Do you have oil "logging" occurring?

[jaybee]

Dude -

Oil systems can be fun or your worst nightmare. Way to be thorough in your diagnostics, many guys would've immediately tried to adjust the float. This is one situation were truly "going back to basics" is recommended. Slow and Steady will win the day.

Only Comp 2 is slow-fill? Okay. Feel the body - is it warmer than the others?

Is your Compressor actually low on oil, or do you have a situation with your Oil Fail device? There is a strainer screen and o-ring in the tip of the probe.

Check the Oil Fill Control Inlet Screen for blockage.

Check any other line filters for restrictions.

How many years (decades) since last oil change?

Liquid level?

Oil in the bilges anywhere?

Do you have oil "logging" occurring?

oil changed about 1 month ago,transducer clean,screen in cranckcase clean,liqiud was low,now at 15% rack pressure still the same target set at 10#.What about the way i checked y825 and 40# pressure over suction? logging ,all other compressors okay.

[jpsmith1cm]

I run 15-20 psi over suction with those valves.

Did you check the pot inlet screen? (If it has one)

[engineerdave]

I think that unless you have a Y valve on every compressor, then it is likely a secondary issue what your Delta P is. I think it's probable that you're looking for something local to Comp 2.

[jaybee]

I run 15-20 psi over suction with those valves.

Did you check the pot inlet screen? (If it has one)

Forgot about screen in the oil pot. Will check. The Y825-2 was i chechking that right.What effect Will the 45# over suction have on the system.

[engineerdave]

Forgot about screen in the oil pot. Will check. The Y825-2 was i chechking that right.What effect Will the 45# over suction have on the system.

45# - TOO HIGH. Could cause a slow-fill scenario, high level in reservoir. Question is, why slow-fill to only one comp?

[gatorfan9606]

what can of oil pot is this ac&r or sporlan your oil line going to this compressor is it hot or cool and do you even see any foam in the sightglass at the pot

[Phase Loss]

too high of a differential can blow oil right past the float controll and over fill the compressors. 15-25 is good for most situations. but sounds like only compressor #2 is your problem with slow filling. maybe it is a pumper (pumps oil out faster than it can fill) or the oil regulator inlet screen is pluged.

as for how you checked the y825-2 valve. I have never heard of closing off the flow to all the pots. just put a guage on the y825-2 outlet side and a guage on the vented suction and read the differential.

do your oil pots have equalizer lines?

[gatorfan9606]

too high of a differential can blow oil right past the float controll and over fill the compressors. 15-25 is good for most situations. but sounds like only compressor #2 is your problem with slow filling. maybe it is a pumper (pumps oil out faster than it can fill) or the oil regulator inlet screen is pluged.

as for how you checked the y825-2 valve. I have never heard of closing off the flow to all the pots. just put a guage on the y825-2 outlet side and a guage on the vented suction and read the differential.

do your oil pots have equalizer lines?

i have been told by hussmann to close off the equalizer line

[jaybee]

what can of oil pot is this ac&r or sporlan your oil line going to this compressor is it hot or cool and do you even see any foam in the sightglass at the pot

think the pot is an ac@r and yes there is some foaming in the site glass checked shat the compressor about 35.

[gatorfan9606]

think the pot is an ac@r and yes there is some foaming in the site glass checked shat the compressor about 35.

some foam is good have you taken the oil pot of the compressor and seen if the float is ok all the links are there also this is long shot here but i have seen some compressors with a mesh screen on that opening where the pot bolts to may that be clogged ????its a long shot but you need know i have seen the float stick from time to time so.......as for that 825y valve try to set it back to 15-25psi

[crackertech]

Or mabey the pot has been ajusted to far open or closed past the stop either way will break them.

[gatorfan9606]

Or mabey the pot has been ajusted to far open or closed past the stop either way will break them.

good point because it dont take much to over go the set limit

[Phase Loss]

lol yea...reminds me, a guy just asked me this last week how many turns to open this float. he said he turn it 73 times and it still will not stop.:o

[Joe Harper]

lol yea...reminds me, a guy just asked me this last week how many turns to open this float. he said he turn it 73 times and it still will not stop.:o

So what made him stop at 73??:eek:

[jpsmith1cm]

So what made him stop at 73??:eek:

Well, 75 would have been WAY too much, obviously.

:p

[jpsmith1cm]

While we are on the topic of oil floats, has anyone else seen the Sporlan floats that lose the snap ring on the adjuster stem, then the stem falls down into the pot, then the whole thing is JUNK?

I had a rash of those about 4 or 5 months ago and switched to Henrys without a hitch.

I think that this is a permanent change for me.

[crackertech]

While we are on the topic of oil floats, has anyone else seen the Sporlan floats that lose the snap ring on the adjuster stem, then the stem falls down into the pot, then the whole thing is JUNK?

I had a rash of those about 4 or 5 months ago and switched to Henrys without a hitch.

I think that this is a permanent change for me.

X2

[gatorfan9606]

While we are on the topic of oil floats, has anyone else seen the Sporlan floats that lose the snap ring on the adjuster stem, then the stem falls down into the pot, then the whole thing is JUNK?

I had a rash of those about 4 or 5 months ago and switched to Henrys without a hitch.

I think that this is a permanent change for me.

my problem is with the henrys theres no inlet screens on them the more protection in that oil line for me the better i change out the of303's at least 3 times a yr

[man from trane]

I think that unless you have a Y valve on every compressor, then it is likely a secondary issue what your Delta P is. I think it's probable that you're looking for something local to Comp 2.

True, but I have one comp in particular that liked to trip on oil. I finally found that it was a delta P issue, and the reason it was that one compressor is that it was the only one running (lead with unloaders) when the suction went higher than the oil reservoir pressure.

[jaybee]

To tackle such issues when dealing oil problems on rack what are the list of things and in what sequence u guys check elimanating as u go. I was told to be thourough and develope a system of things to check from start to finish.

[jpsmith1cm]

I start with contactor. Most common cause, also easyest.
Then move to oil level, pressure at the compressor. Check the pot, filter, pickup screen.

Basically, I start at the trouble unit and work backwards from there.

[iceboxer449]

I would agree with JP. If all that checked out, I would check for clogged sentronic screen while checking pick up screen, systems blowing back during hot gas defrost, and even switching ofc control with another compressor to see if its acting up.

[jaybee]

What is the proper procedure for checking the Y-825 valve on high pressure oil systems?????????

[jpsmith1cm]

I don't know if there is an 'exact' procedure. I check oil delivery pressure on the oil supply line against suction header pressure.

As I said before, I set it to 15-17 above suction.

[jaybee]

I don't know if there is an 'exact' procedure. I check oil delivery pressure on the oil supply line against suction header pressure.

As I said before, I set it to 15-17 above suction.

Just wondering because i was told you had to close the feed to each oil pot then check . Is this the way u check it???? For some reason this dont seem right.

[Phase Loss]

never heard of closing all oil pots. i always have checked/adjusted the y825-2 with everything open and running.

although the y825-2 has no literature about it. it operates the same as the Sporlan Y1236-C which has some info here.
http://sporlan.jandrewschoen.com/110-10_012008.pdf

[jaybee]

Thanks guys, I talked to the manufactor he e-mailed me some instructions on how to add glycol if i got another call

[MikeySq]

While we are on the topic of oil floats, has anyone else seen the Sporlan floats that lose the snap ring on the adjuster stem, then the stem falls down into the pot, then the whole thing is JUNK?

I had a rash of those about 4 or 5 months ago and switched to Henrys without a hitch.

I think that this is a permanent change for me.

X3, :p

[dirtyboy103us]

What is the proper procedure for checking the Y-825 valve on high pressure oil systems?????????



the y825 is a high pressure differential valve where it creates a oil pressure step down and i believe they come set from factory at 20 psi diff.

slow oil fill.....not enough pressure to force oil into compressor= check oil regulator level setting and check to see if one of those compressors are sucking up the oil are they all holding the correct level weather they are running or not

compressor #2 is a good place to start but not necessary the culprit in all cases

you should be able to maintain 20 psi diff always on the oil line to the compressor's check to see if any are hot and filling continously


random oil trips are just that random ,you could go cazy trying to find the cause

where"s andy when you need him

the y825 is made by sporland for hussman

[jaybee]

the y825 is a high pressure differential valve where it creates a oil pressure step down and i believe they come set from factory at 20 psi diff.

slow oil fill.....not enough pressure to force oil into compressor= check oil regulator level setting and check to see if one of those compressors are sucking up the oil are they all holding the correct level weather they are running or not

compressor #2 is a good place to start but not necessary the culprit in all cases

you should be able to maintain 20 psi diff always on the oil line to the compressor's check to see if any are hot and filling continously


random oil trips are just that random ,you could go cazy trying to find the cause

where"s andy when you need him

the y825 is made by sporland for hussman

What is the proper way to check the differental and the best wat to identify the compressor pumping oil?

[MikeySq]

slow oil fill.....not enough pressure to force oil into compressor= check oil regulator level setting and check to see if one of those compressors are sucking up the oil are they all holding the correct level weather they are running or not

compressor #2 is a good place to start but not necessary the culprit in all cases


that reminds me of a prob i had once with oil trips on #1 comp and i ended up finding a bad reg on #4 comp that was over feeding and caused the #1 to starve of oil

mike

[dirtyboy103us]

go here and be prepared to read...... what your asking for is on pg.128

but if i were you i would have a copy handy its old but lots of good info





http://www.hussmann.com/Discontinued%20Tech%20Info/HSS_Rack_im.pdf

[jaybee]

go here and be prepared to read...... what your asking for is on pg.128

but if i were you i would have a copy handy its old but lots of good info





http://www.hussmann.com/Discontinued%20Tech%20Info/HSS_Rack_im.pdf

This is the way i was told to check the pressure i think . I close off the flow to each regulator and got a reading at the end of the oil supply line of 55 and my suction was 10 pounds= 45 above suction.However only to compressors are going off on oil failure #2@#3. It also appears that compressor1 crankcase where much warmer than all others. What do you do to check for oil pumpper. I have read somewhere that i could valve off the compressor and take 1/4 inch peiece of copper flared on both ends and connect to suction of compressor and crankcase turn compressor on and if the copper heats up to discharge temp then im pumpping oil. Is this true.

[dirtyboy103us]

your going this kind of backwards where a pumper would be the last thing on my list

start with the oil control system and make sure every thing is set up properly and working, this way your not spinning your wheels its just easier that way

check all level controls takes like ten minutes then your y825 screens are clean and the o-rings on the sensors dry out over time and need to be replaced

i actuly tried that copper tube set up and found nothing and was a pain in the a$$

finding a pumper is not any good,...... explaining to some customers why you need to change a perfectly running compressor, most don't understand and your reaching deep into their pockets, so look for the little things

[jaybee]

go here and be prepared to read...... what your asking for is on pg.128

but if i were you i would have a copy handy its old but lots of good info





http://www.hussmann.com/Discontinued%20Tech%20Info/HSS_Rack_im.pdf

Y825 Valve Adjustment
Step #1 Close all the oil float service valves. This is done by turning the valve stem in the clock
wise direction until they bottom out.
Step #2 Connect a low pressure gauge to the suction header.
Step #3 Connect the low side gauge hose of a gauge manifold set to the schrader connection at
the end of the supply oil manifold.
Step #4 Connect the center hose of the gauge manifold set to the suction header.
Step #5 Open the hand wheel on the gauge manifold set for a few seconds then close it off again.
Step #6 Subtract the suction header pressure from the oil header pressure.
Step #7 If adjustment is necessary, turn Y825 valve adjustment stem in the clock wise direction
to increase pressure and turn it counter clock wise to reduce pressure. Always open the
hand wheel on the gauge manifold for a few seconds and recalculate oil pressure after
every adjustment.
Step #8 Remove all gauges from the system.
Step #9 Open all the oil float service valves.

Which reading do i subtract from suction header psi the reading i get when i open the wheel are the reading after i closed it??

[jpsmith1cm]

Closed.

[jaybee]

Closed.

so openning the wheel for a few seconds is going to recalibrate your reading??

[jpsmith1cm]

It would make the valve feed and basically 'reset' it and give you a true reading. Especially when lowering the pressure.

[jaybee]

so a too high of a differential will cause slow fill effect . What is meant by this

[dirtyboy103us]

ok here it is the easy way

1. check your y825 valve and find out what is set for

now lets say you have a 15 psi differential over suction which is great now your oil will flow into the oil regulator at a rate that will be consistent, now make sure ALL REGULATORS ARE SET for the 15 psi differential as soon as one is done filling the others will follow and stop and will level off there is a chart to use for this no matter who's you use sporlan or ac&r just find the material and read it

[dirtyboy103us]

so a too high of a differential will cause slow fill effect . What is meant by this


NO it will fill fast and foam or over fill the oil regulator

make sure you y825 is holding the same presure sometimes after all oil regulators are full it will keep presurizing the line and you will have 40 psi and keep filling the compressor's but it make take 20 minutes so watch it and make sure it holds after all are full or shut down the oil regulators and if it fills over what you've got is set for change it