Is new unit pricing somewhat negotiable?

[LH2]

A gallon of milk at the supermarket costs what it costs.

A new car from a dealer costs what you can negotiate it to cost.

Does a new system have any play in the pricing quote written up by the salesman, or is pricing firm?

[john_ertw]

I have found it depends on the company. I had some who didn't budge and others who seemed too desperate to get the work at any price (I stayed away from them). My choosen contractor worked with me to give me a slight discount by getting me what I need and want (reduced price slightly on furnace and a/c and charged me cost for minor duct work, filter, and thermostat).

[classical]

I will negotiate the scope of work and the level of equipment I do not negotiate price.

[jerryd_2008]

A gallon of milk at the supermarket costs what it costs.

A new car from a dealer costs what you can negotiate it to cost.

Does a new system have any play in the pricing quote written up by the salesman, or is pricing firm?

Seems to me this is not all apples-to-apples. Milk is sitting on the shelf with a price, but usually there are cheaper versions of the same commodity. So pick the one you want and don't expect to negotiate at the check-out counter.

A new car is much more like a HVAC system with equipment cost, espertise and support that are more under the control of the seller. Seems to me that a HVAC contractor would also be sensitive to volume of business, competition, incentives, etc. on the very same unit at different times. classical, do you not modify your price a bit or offer extras, say added labor warranty, due to these issues, especially in the face of the economy and other competing proposals?

[beenthere]

If you get the contractor to lower his price.
Something will be cut to make up for it.

On a car. Every day it sits on the lot. They are paying interest.
So lowering the price can save them money.

[classical]

classical, do you not modify your price a bit or offer extras, say added labor warranty, due to these issues, especially in the face of the economy and other competing proposals?

This would come under scope; you want the price to be lower take something out of the proposal. For instance no extended warranty, no filter or extra return air.

I and most contractors know what our cost are and what we need to make a profit and stay in business. I have a formula to determine price and I stick to it. I have modified my proposals I offer less/simpler options than I did and I offer less technical installs than I did.

This is not what I want to do but I have been forced to do this.

[paulwbenn]

As a customer, and comments from the contractors here notwithstanding, I'm not afraid to politely ask for a better price from the people I do business with. The worst that can happen is the installer can say no and I can decide whether or not I want to go with someone else. If they are insulted, maybe they should get a little thicker skin. :)

[mrs reb77]

Being in the HVAC business myself, I would expect the price quoted to be the best price already. I know that if we're asked to try to lower a price we would have to find something to cut--and that would mean refiguring and losing more time to the job that isn't even accounted for yet. So, we give the best price we can, offer options (upgrade/downgrade/add on) and then it's up to the consumer.

Do you go to the neighborhood steak house and order a T-bone and then try to get them to come down to the price of a rib eye?
Sure, they have the steak on hand but they've got their cost of doing business and that's where the prices come from. If they're interested in offering the T-bone for rib eye prices they'll advertise it as a sale.

[beenthere]

If they're interested in offering the T-bone for rib eye prices they'll advertise it as a sale.

And won't tell you how old the T bones were when they bought them.

[Senior Tech]

Being in the HVAC business myself, I would expect the price quoted to be the best price already. I know that if we're asked to try to lower a price we would have to find something to cut--and that would mean refiguring and losing more time to the job that isn't even accounted for yet. So, we give the best price we can, offer options (upgrade/downgrade/add on) and then it's up to the consumer.

Do you go to the neighborhood steak house and order a T-bone and then try to get them to come down to the price of a rib eye?
Sure, they have the steak on hand but they've got their cost of doing business and that's where the prices come from. If they're interested in offering the T-bone for rib eye prices they'll advertise it as a sale.

But suppose I tell them to hold the A-1 sauce...do I get the deal or don't I :D

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

If a contractor lowers his price without baulking, don't be surprised to see low dollar inexperienced mechanics show up.
I tell folks all the time I can lower my price, but they won't be getting my mechanic with 15 years experience and 20 different certifications. They usually understand.

[paulwbenn]

To the contractors on the board, I'm glad you have so much business that you never give a discount.:)

To the original poster, I reiterate my original point: nothing wrong with asking for a better deal.

[I_bend_metal]

You can't relate buying a car to buying an AC.....


When you go to Walmart to get some paint......do you ask for a better deal???

You get what you pay for......nuff said.....

[I_bend_metal]

To the contractors on the board, I'm glad you have so much business that you never give a discount.:)


We are too.....:rolleyes:

[jdavis72]

To the contractors on the board, I'm glad you have so much business that you never give a discount.:)

To the original poster, I reiterate my original point: nothing wrong with asking for a better deal.

You're right...nothing wrong with asking. But don't expect to get it just cause you asked. All of the contractors on here, and all of the good hvac contractors abroad have way more company expenses than a restaurant or a car dealership can expect (or a doctor, for that matter). If you're curious about some of their expenses, ask (not for the amounts, but for the number of expenses). But they all have to figure in a what those expenses figure up to for a labor cost and what their profit will be in order to stay in business to provide the superior services everyone else expects when their a/c breaks. Sure, some hvac companies may offer discounts, sales, incentives, etc., but after a contractor submits his proposal (unless there's discussion about what features to add or remove), that price is solid. That includes everything he needs to pay all those expenses, make a profit, and stay in business. Expecting anything less, is asking him to reduce his profit, cause the expenses and cost of doing business are there to stay.

[Edwin73]

I'll come down on the price sometimes. But I know for a fact that alot of times, I lose a bid because I refuse to do a half-a$$ job like the other guy will do. Cheap companies will not recover refrigerant and pay to have it disposed of, they don't pull vacuums on systems. But, on the other hand, just cuz yer payin a high price does'nt mean yer gettin a top job either.

[jerryd_2008]

Being in the HVAC business myself, I would expect the price quoted to be the best price already. I know that if we're asked to try to lower a price we would have to find something to cut--and that would mean refiguring and losing more time to the job that isn't even accounted for yet. So, we give the best price we can, offer options (upgrade/downgrade/add on) and then it's up to the consumer.

This is my first experience asking for a top end system, but I see some big swings in the proposed prices. Can't help but feel that several contractors are looking at the house size and figuring that this old retired guy can afford it, know that there are rebates and tax credits and are loading up the proposal price. Almost get a feeling of a bit of gouging to take advantage of the "opportunity". I guess I have another option, and that is to just walk away since my current system is operational although 15 years old. Feel sorry for anybody with a failed system. By the way not picking on all of you pros that take so much time here to help us out.

I hear that the rebates will probably return in the Fall for some manufacturers and the tax credits go through next year. And I will not forget the contractor who gave me that information and was very straight with me.

I am also getting the feeling that the tax credits are very new to everybody, including manufacturers who don't have many top end systems certified as yet and the contractors who may be factoring a bit more risk due to the more sophisticated installs.

[beenthere]

When you get a low priced bid.

Ask the guy to explain how a VS blower will help lower humidity.
Ask him how a thermostat like the IAQ controls the blower.
Ask him if he tested the Static pressure of your current system, and what he expects the static pressure of your new system to be.

If he stumbles on questions like those. You know why his price is lower.

[mrs reb77]

This is my first experience asking for a top end system, but I see some big swings in the proposed prices. Can't help but feel that several contractors are looking at the house size and figuring that this old retired guy can afford it, know that there are rebates and tax credits and are loading up the proposal price. Almost get a feeling of a bit of gouging to take advantage of the "opportunity". I guess I have another option, and that is to just walk away since my current system is operational although 15 years old. Feel sorry for anybody with a failed system. By the way not picking on all of you pros that take so much time here to help us out.

I hear that the rebates will probably return in the Fall for some manufacturers and the tax credits go through next year. And I will not forget the contractor who gave me that information and was very straight with me.

I am also getting the feeling that the tax credits are very new to everybody, including manufacturers who don't have many top end systems certified as yet and the contractors who may be factoring a bit more risk due to the more sophisticated installs.

You see what you perceive as big swings because every HVAC guy is a stand alone business. Like the landscaper that comes to work on a yard, every yard is different and every guy doing the work has different expenses in order to get that job done.

I know for a certain fact that we don't price jobs on a perception of if someone looks more well off than another person. As the old saying goes 'looks can be deceiving' and it's just not good business practice! Even for material goods you can go to many different stores and find many different prices. It's the free market system and not everyone's cost of doing business is the same. We're small one-man shop and we don't get the discount volume pricing that large shops do so that's a disadvantage on pricing a job out for us. However, we also don't have the overhead for all the equipment, vehicles and manpower that the large shops do so it somewhat starts equaling out!

[mrs reb77]

To the contractors on the board, I'm glad you have so much business that you never give a discount.:)

To the original poster, I reiterate my original point: nothing wrong with asking for a better deal.

If a contractor gives his most competitive price up front for a quality job and the prospective customer doesn't accept it then the customer is more than welcome to use someone else. There's no profit in doing jobs for no profit. It's the free market we live in. If a business cannot sell their goods or services at a profit, eventually they will go out of business.

Unless of course they make automobiles for a living....:o

[jerryd_2008]

We're small one-man shop and we don't get the discount volume pricing that large shops do so that's a disadvantage on pricing a job out for us. However, we also don't have the overhead for all the equipment, vehicles and manpower that the large shops do so it somewhat starts equaling out!

Actually, the very nicest, original installer and lowest bidder appears to be not much more than a one-man shop. Unfortunately, his manufacturer, Bryant (Carrier, etc.), is not getting units certified very rapidly. Don't know if that is technical or they were just taken by surprise by the 2009 tax credits.

Can anybody tell me if a new coil design is being manufactured but not readily available that has another row of could or something like that for better efficiency? That might help get certs but also sounds like later this year for such a unit that is certified. Does AHRI really certify every combination of heat pump/coil/furnace?????? Sounds like an immense job.

[Mr Bill]

Actually, the very nicest, original installer and lowest bidder appears to be not much more than a one-man shop. Unfortunately, his manufacturer, Bryant (Carrier, etc.), is not getting units certified very rapidly. Don't know if that is technical or they were just taken by surprise by the 2009 tax credits.

Can anybody tell me if a new coil design is being manufactured but not readily available that has another row of could or something like that for better efficiency? That might help get certs but also sounds like later this year for such a unit that is certified. Does AHRI really certify every combination of heat pump/coil/furnace?????? Sounds like an immense job.

Just some food for thought here, just because the Government is offering a "Tax Credit" "Not Rebate" does not mean that the Government qualifying systems are the best for your particular homes needs, just a thought. ;)

[iron]

Hey Mr. Bill,
long time no hear
thanks again for the info on fixing my partial
you have saved me lots of pain

[mrs reb77]

Yeah, it would have been really nice if the Government would have/could have researched the best equipment currently available in order to upgrade people's efficiency and then allowed their credits on that.

It's bad enough we have the change from R-22 coming up!

[Mr Bill]

Hey Mr. Bill,
long time no hear
thanks again for the info on fixing my partial
you have saved me lots of pain

No problem buddy glad I was able to help, it's just been nuts here, I get up every morning not knowing which direction to go, that's the good, the bad is it's really beginning to take it's toll on us, but I am taking off until Tuesday, only call I will run is if God calls. :D

[BobbyBJr]

As a customer, and comments from the contractors here notwithstanding, I'm not afraid to politely ask for a better price from the people I do business with. The worst that can happen is the installer can say no and I can decide whether or not I want to go with someone else. If they are insulted, maybe they should get a little thicker skin. :)

Well, you'd have to get up pretty early and work pretty hard to insult me because I get turned down about as much as I get accepted, but my install crews are scheduled well into next month. If I give you a quote to do any work that you have described that includes solutions to solve any problems you are having with your home, then that quote is firm unless you want to remove something or continue to live with a problem you mentioned. Totally up to you. I will spend the necessary time to explain why I think my quote is a good one, but it is your money and your home. I learned a long time ago that I can stay home and not make any money, so why would I want to come work all day at your home and not make any? At least by staying home I am not risking losing money...;).

Also, the new car analogy only goes so far. A certain make and model new car would be the same vehicle regardless of where you purchased it, or how good a deal you got or didn't get. HVAC doesn't work that way because we bring the complete system out to your home in many pieces and make it all work together to keep you and your family comfortable and safe, not to mention the money you can save by owning a properly designed and operating system. A little corner cut here and there can make a tremendous difference in any of those three things. Sure you need to consider the price of a new HVAC system, but you should also consider the cost of owning it. Price is the price you pay now and cost is the money you spend over the life of the system.

[dash]

Actually, the very nicest, original installer and lowest bidder appears to be not much more than a one-man shop. Unfortunately, his manufacturer, Bryant (Carrier, etc.), is not getting units certified very rapidly. Don't know if that is technical or they were just taken by surprise by the 2009 tax credits.

Can anybody tell me if a new coil design is being manufactured but not readily available that has another row of could or something like that for better efficiency? That might help get certs but also sounds like later this year for such a unit that is certified. Does AHRI really certify every combination of heat pump/coil/furnace?????? Sounds like an immense job.

Yes the new Carrier coils and some new or modified outdoor units will better meet the tax credit minimum and above.Most will be available in June 2009.

[meoberry]

I suggest that you do a little research. Check companies with BBB for complaints. See how long they have been in bussiness. This is an investment. Check them out.

Usually throw out highest and lowest bid. Go for the middle.

[beachtech]

you asked your dentist if that ws his best price on that crown you got?

when the the lady was cutting your hair you asked if she could go lower in price?

having messed up teeth and a crooked hair cut isn't cool... no pun intended :D

[praha99]

Speaking of discounts seems more and more folks are asking for that these days,. Today i took a few bucks off a bid, I may have to start putting in a fudge factor. Seems everyone spending $$ these days wants a deal. Like sharks in the water smelling blood.
I need some hot weather dammit! :mad:

[dohcser]

I am new to the consumer side of the HVAC market as you can see with my previous posts. From my perspective the economy is hard for both of us and I think it's just a state of mind at this point that most consumers believe there is room for negotiation. My opinion.

Also as far as price gouging, I have to believe there is some of that going on. Before joining this and other forums and knowing about Trane, Carrier, Goodman......etc, and their standings. I had a guy come out and give me a quote for a Goodman system, as he stated all Condensers are the same its just the bells and whistles you are paying for with the Trane's, etc. In any case his price was around 30% higher than Trane. I could not help it but to laugh.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

I suggest that you do a little research. Check companies with BBB for complaints. See how long they have been in bussiness. This is an investment. Check them out.



Checking BBB ratings is garbage anymore. I know that the company I work for has a perfect record and is not a BBB member.

I used to refer my customers to check BBB on certain companies I was bidding against when they would ask why I had a higher price. I knew the competion had very bad ratings.
Recently I did a BBB check on my competition and the companies that had terrible ratings suddenly showed A+ ratings along with BBB membership logos in their profiles!
Seems that you can buy a BBB rating today!

[daviddsims]

Yeah they will think twice about a few dollars off when its a 100 degrees outside. I dont mind paying a fair price if its quality work.

[classical]

I am new to the consumer side of the HVAC market as you can see with my previous posts. From my perspective the economy is hard for both of us and I think it's just a state of mind at this point that most consumers believe there is room for negotiation. My opinion.

Also as far as price gouging, I have to believe there is some of that going on. Before joining this and other forums and knowing about Trane, Carrier, Goodman......etc, and their standings. I had a guy come out and give me a quote for a Goodman system, as he stated all Condensers are the same its just the bells and whistles you are paying for with the Trane's, etc. In any case his price was around 30% higher than Trane. I could not help it but to laugh.

Well it is obvious that you do not know what you are talking about. I sell Goodman as well as Bryant, Payne and Maytag. My Goodman prices are frequently higher by a considerable percentage than others Trane and Carrier prices. It is the labor and quality of the labor that cost not the equipment. I perform better more diligent work than the other guy so I cost more period.

[dohcser]

Well it is obvious that you do not know what you are talking about. I sell Goodman as well as Bryant, Payne and Maytag. My Goodman prices are frequently higher by a considerable percentage than others Trane and Carrier prices. It is the labor and quality of the labor that cost not the equipment. I perform better more diligent work than the other guy so I cost more period.

I hope you don't treat your customers the way you write on the forum. I politely stated I am a newbie, and the way I look at it is, why would I want a "Ford" when I can buy a "Mercedes" for the same price. The price quoted from the Trane dealer is one of Tranes most reputable dealer in my area.

[classical]

I hope you don't treat your customers the way you write on the forum. I politely stated I am a newbie, and the way I look at it is, why would I want a "Ford" when I can buy a "Mercedes" for the same price. The price quoted from the Trane dealer is one of Tranes most reputable dealer in my area.

Well first tone and inflection do not translate well to the internet so take for what that is worth.

Next brand is the last thing to consider when buying a system, the installer is everything.

Just for your edification I would rather own a Ford than a Mercedes; Mercedes for the most part are grossly overrated as is Trane.

[meoberry]

Speaking of discounts seems more and more folks are asking for that these days,. Today i took a few bucks off a bid, I may have to start putting in a fudge factor. Seems everyone spending $$ these days wants a deal. Like sharks in the water smelling blood.
I need some hot weather dammit! :mad:

What? You don't have a little extra in the bid. Always helps to give a good customer discount of 10%. That was already compensated for in the proposal. Makes the customer feel like they talked you down. They are happy. You are happy. Everybody is happy. Maybe a little shady. But works like a charm.;);)

[meoberry]

Well first tone and inflection do not translate well to the internet so take for what that is worth.

Next brand is the last thing to consider when buying a system, the installer is everything.

Just for your edification I would rather own a Ford than a Mercedes; Mercedes for the most part are grossly overrated as is Trane.

Yeah and the goodman parts are way way cheaper than sometimes the exact same part for a trane. The only difference between manu. parts is they build their own coils and cabinets. Everything else is supplied by the lowest bidder ie. china, mexico or tiawan.:D:D

[Edwin73]

I hope you don't treat your customers the way you write on the forum. I politely stated I am a newbie, and the way I look at it is, why would I want a "Ford" when I can buy a "Mercedes" for the same price. The price quoted from the Trane dealer is one of Tranes most reputable dealer in my area.


I've installed both Goodman and Trane, and I like the Tranes more than I like the Goodmans. Tranes quality is better than Goodman in my opinion, especially on the commercial units. I'm not a dealer for either one either, so I have no reason for promoting one over the other.

[meoberry]

I've installed both Goodman and Trane, and I like the Tranes more than I like the Goodmans. Tranes quality is better than Goodman in my opinion, especially on the commercial units. I'm not a dealer for either one either, so I have no reason for promoting one over the other.

The commercial units are constructed better than residential. Residential have weak evap coils. But the commercial end is starting to experiment with something that carrier did a few years ago.

Short tube orifices. Yuch!!!! Also having problems with reversing valves sticking half way. Condensor motors failing after six months. :(

[jerryd_2008]

you asked your dentist if that ws his best price on that crown you got? :D

Actually I have, but hasn't worked well so far.

[jerryd_2008]

Just some food for thought here, just because the Government is offering a "Tax Credit" "Not Rebate" does not mean that the Government qualifying systems are the best for your particular homes needs, just a thought. ;)

Mr Bill, been away a few days. What kind of reasons would there be that such a qualifying system wouldn't be best for a particular home?

[Thebil Illpay]

Mr Bill, been away a few days. What kind of reasons would there be that such a qualifying system wouldn't be best for a particular home?

Contractor didn't size it properly, that'd be one.

[classical]

Contractor didn't size it properly, that'd be one.

Actually it would be more that the matching/qualifying components are improper for a climate. When designing a system the blower and coil determine the SHR (latent/sensible ratio) and the GOV. matches are terrible for humid climates.

[Thebil Illpay]

Actually it would be more that the matching/qualifying components are improper for a climate. When designing a system the blower and coil determine the SHR (latent/sensible ratio) and the GOV. matches are terrible for humid climates.

I was thinking that the contractor quoted an undersized or oversized system.

That being said, taking into account -if I am correct in what I believe I've learned on this forum - is that a smaller coil is generally better for humidity removal, does using a multistage condensor with a VS furnace balance out the lower humidity removal of using a larger coil to get the eer/seer up?

Added text: The furnace I'm thinking about actually has a 4 step ECM blower motor, not true infinitely variable speed.