Putting an 80% Furnace with High Seer Heatpump

[bluesramsrock]

Wanted to run this by the experts. I'm replacing a 23 year old furnace and 12 year old AC (AC is leaking freon.) I've talked to 3 contractors and the best balance between cost and effiency seems to be a recommedation to combine a modulating 80% furnace with a high SEER York heatpump. (I got the same suggestion from the Lennox dealer but the York dealer was willing to work with me on price.)

I'm looking at installing the York modulating furnace with their 18 Seer Heatpump. I live in St. Louis where the summers can get hot and humid and we can have some infrequent but long cold spells.

The modulating furnace sounds nice from a comfort perspective and even it's only 80% (might be a little more effiecient than 80) it is still much better than my legacy unit. The number of heating days below 30 degrees in St. Louis is probably not a large number so I'm thinking the higher SEER heat pump will be a nice improvement in heating efficiency anyway.

The contractor has won York's dealer of the year award and were very professional folks to talk to and I'm comfortable their installation would be excellent and their support as well.

So does this combination make sense to you. I'm told I still will qualify for the $1500 tax credit and I won't have to run the new flue for the higher % furnace saving me some decent installation dollars.

Your thoughts and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[jerryd_2008]

I too am looking at then York high end HP with 80%, variable-speed, modulating furnace. However, it is very questionable whether this HP equipment, at least for the 4 ton unit which I am interested in, meets the tax credit requirements. Make sure you have the contractor provide you an official ARI tax credit listing that proves it meets the IRS requirements BEFORE you sign.

If you get such proof, I would appreciate seeing the ARI certificate number that proves 2009 tax credit eligibility (and uses a York coil that qualifies it for large York rebate).

[beenthere]

What size furnace, and what size heat pump.

[sktn77a]

Well, you'll pay approximately 15% more on your heating bills with the lower efficiency furnace. If the combustion venting or routing the condensate drain of the high efficiency furnace is a problem, then the 80% furnace makes sense. Otherwise, not sure why you wouldn't go for the Hi Eff furnace.

[jerryd_2008]

Well, you'll pay approximately 15% more on your heating bills with the lower efficiency furnace. If the combustion venting or routing the condensate drain of the high efficiency furnace is a problem, then the 80% furnace makes sense. Otherwise, not sure why you wouldn't go for the Hi Eff furnace.

Don't mean to interfere bluesramsrock but here in Northwest Arkansas, 15% of a 1-2 month moderate gas bill is pretty small. Not absolutely sure but you may have a similar situation in ST. Louis, a bit further north and quite warm in the summer. Also, in my case, 30 feet of white PVC pipe running down the garage followed by an intake/exhaust penetration through a brick exterior wall are huge deterrents.

These are the thought processes I have been migrating through in getting to my current request. Even started with geothermal desires until I ran the total electric and gas costs per year and started thinking more dollars and cents.

[amd]

Well, you'll pay approximately 15% more on your heating bills with the lower efficiency furnace. If the combustion venting or routing the condensate drain of the high efficiency furnace is a problem, then the 80% furnace makes sense. Otherwise, not sure why you wouldn't go for the Hi Eff furnace.

Based on bluesramsrock's description, the heatpump will be doing most of the heating anyway. Furnace is only for backup.

If that's the case it might be more cost effective to forget the furnace and install heat strips which can run with the heatpump simultaneously. (Assuming the electrical panel has adequate capacity)

[2old2rock]

Propane or Natural gas? Prices of fossil fuels and electric rates can give you a guide to what will be most economical. Electric back up heat can be cheaper to operate than propane, and NG in some areas. With electric back-up, your heat pump will continue to run, even if it can't keep up, and if staged properly, the heat strips will come on in small amounts. With fossil fuel back-up, the HP stops, and uses only gas for heat.
A properly sized and installed HP should be more economical than gas or heat strips at all but the coldest temps, so you want the HP running.
Keep in mind, a heat pump will receive a lot more wear and tear than an A/C. It may run 10 months out of the year, versus 4 months for an A/C.
Your contractor should be able to explain this in more detail.

[bluesramsrock]

What size furnace, and what size heat pump.

100,000 BTU Furnace and 4 Ton HP

[bluesramsrock]

Propane or Natural gas? Prices of fossil fuels and electric rates can give you a guide to what will be most economical. Electric back up heat can be cheaper to operate than propane, and NG in some areas. With electric back-up, your heat pump will continue to run, even if it can't keep up, and if staged properly, the heat strips will come on in small amounts. With fossil fuel back-up, the HP stops, and uses only gas for heat.
A properly sized and installed HP should be more economical than gas or heat strips at all but the coldest temps, so you want the HP running.
Keep in mind, a heat pump will receive a lot more wear and tear than an A/C. It may run 10 months out of the year, versus 4 months for an A/C.
Your contractor should be able to explain this in more detail.

Natural Gas and the odd times it gets below zero here I still think the furnace backup is a good idea, but I'm not familiar with heat strips at all and none of the contractors mentioned them. Perhaps we get too cold too frequently for them to be an option here?

[bluesramsrock]

I too am looking at then York high end HP with 80%, variable-speed, modulating furnace. However, it is very questionable whether this HP equipment, at least for the 4 ton unit which I am interested in, meets the tax credit requirements. Make sure you have the contractor provide you an official ARI tax credit listing that proves it meets the IRS requirements BEFORE you sign.

If you get such proof, I would appreciate seeing the ARI certificate number that proves 2009 tax credit eligibility (and uses a York coil that qualifies it for large York rebate).

I've been a little uncomfortable with this issue too but both the Lennox and York guys quoting similar set-ups put it in writing that these systems will qualify. But asking for the ARI certificate would make sense. However I may wait until they have their men on site! May cause them to "work" with me on how to remedy this situation, quickly.

[Freezeking2000]

I can not get the luxaire unit to eer above 12 with a gas furnace. I think you may be stuck on the 4 ton system and gas furnace. I sell the heat pump with an air handler and it makes the grade. The 8 series unit has a greast HSPF for heating.

[bluesramsrock]

I can not get the luxaire unit to eer above 12 with a gas furnace. I think you may be stuck on the 4 ton system and gas furnace. I sell the heat pump with an air handler and it makes the grade. The 8 series unit has a greast HSPF for heating.

This is the Affinity 8T (18 SEER) does that make a difference I'm (not familiar with Luxaire can you elaborate. thanks!)

[beenthere]

Nope.
It has no furnace match up that qualifies.

[Freezeking2000]

http://www.yorkupg.com/PDFFiles/345094-YTG-E-0808.pdf

The 4 ton will not do it. Are you sure you need 4 tons?

The 3 ton makes it.

[bluesramsrock]

No I'm not sure. This unit is replacing a 3.5 ton Lennox that cooled well and we had no humidity issues. No one suggested going down to the 3 Ton and I didn't ask. (2200 sq ft ranch with vaulted ceiling in 60% of the house.)

[bluesramsrock]

Would a similar Lennox system qualify. G60V Variable Speed Gas Furnace and there high SEER Heat Pump? Thanks!

[jerryd_2008]

Would a similar Lennox system qualify. G60V Variable Speed Gas Furnace and there high SEER Heat Pump? Thanks!

I'm considering the very same unit and capacities. This seems like a guessing game but it is not. The following web site gives the ARI certifications for all units by manufacturer, capacity, size, etc.: http://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/hp/defaultSearch.aspx

Just make sure the tax credit requires the following for heat pumps:

Split Systems:
HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

You need to plug in these values as the Minimum required in the page provided along with your cooling capacity (I use 45,000 Minimum for 4 ton).

I still recommend to get that ARI certification for the unit you select BEFORE you sign any proposal. Once signed, what's your leverage?

[bluesramsrock]

OK - why does this have to be so darn complicated???

Tell me if this works, I get a higher effieciency furnace 95% and go with a decent SEER AC (14-15?) I think I can I take all of the credit on the furnace. Is that accurate?

I'm not convinced a Heat Pump is that much of an advantage at this point in this part of the country anyway and I can do this combo for less money.

Thanks!

[bluesramsrock]

OK - why does this have to be so darn complicated???

Tell me if this works, I get a higher effieciency furnace 95% and go with a decent SEER AC (14-15?) I think I can I take all of the credit on the furnace. Is that accurate?

I'm not convinced a Heat Pump is that much of an advantage at this point in this part of the country anyway and I can do this combo for less money.

Thanks!


OK now it's more complicated they just gave me certification for the original combination. I think I'm prohibited from posting the certification but here is the meat of the document.

Cooling Capacity (Btuh): 47000
EER Rating (Cooling): 12.50
SEER Rating (Cooling): 17.00
Heating Capacity(Btuh) @ 47 F: 46000
Region IV HSPF Rating (Heating): 9.30
Heating Capacity(Btuh) @ 17 F: 30600

Since his conflicts what others on the board believe to be true can anyone provide insight into why they are telling me it does qualify.

I'm getting a headache!

[Thebil Illpay]

OK - why does this have to be so darn complicated???

Tell me if this works, I get a higher effieciency furnace 95% and go with a decent SEER AC (14-15?) I think I can I take all of the credit on the furnace. Is that accurate?

I'm not convinced a Heat Pump is that much of an advantage at this point in this part of the country anyway and I can do this combo for less money.

Thanks!

The rules seem pretty simple to me. You can find them through this link.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits

[bluesramsrock]

The rules seem pretty simple to me. You can find them through this link.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits

I've talked to 5 contractors with many years of experience between them and everyone of them said it is all very confusing to them. The one website that provides the matching details makes no sense to me.

But if it's simple to you I say you can make some money explaining to the masses!

[jerryd_2008]

Just make sure the tax credit requires the following for heat pumps:

Split Systems:
HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

My above quote is from the Energy Star web site Thebil Illpay suggested if you picked the HVAC option. As I understand it, you MUST have an ARI certificate from the contractor that you can provide to the IRS (read: attached to your 2009 tax form) that says the system that they INSTALLED meets at least these efficiency numbers. Your 5 experienced contractors should have no problems understanding those numbers whether their proposal meets them or not is another issue. You must insist that it does or no tax credit. They could try to give you a less efficient system that does not meet these numbers in order to get a lower price. Fine, but you must understand no tax credit.

Also understand that when a contractor proposes a model (say York Affinity) with xyz SEER, abc EER and mno HSPF that there is at least one size in that model that does meet those numbers. However, your proposed unit may NOT. I have found that smaller units seem to get better numbers. This is why you need the ARI certificate since this organization has independently determined that your exact unit DOES meet the stated numbers and is qualified for the tax credits (depending how anal you are, and I am, you can independently verify the certificate on the ARI site I suggested using the certificate number or models, coils, capacities provided by the contractor).

Hope that helps a bit.

[bluesramsrock]

My above quote is from the Energy Star web site Thebil Illpay suggested if you picked the HVAC option. As I understand it, you MUST have an ARI certificate from the contractor that you can provide to the IRS (read: attached to your 2009 tax form) that says the system that they INSTALLED meets at least these efficiency numbers. Your 5 experienced contractors should have no problems understanding those numbers whether their proposal meets them or not is another issue. You must insist that it does or no tax credit. They could try to give you a less efficient system that does not meet these numbers in order to get a lower price. Fine, but you must understand no tax credit.

Also understand that when a contractor proposes a model (say York Affinity) with xyz SEER, abc EER and mno HSPF that there is at least one size in that model that does meet those numbers. However, your proposed unit may NOT. I have found that smaller units seem to get better numbers. This is why you need the ARI certificate since this organization has independently determined that your exact unit DOES meet the stated numbers and is qualified for the tax credits (depending how anal you are, and I am, you can independently verify the certificate on the ARI site I suggested using the certificate number or models, coils, capacities provided by the contractor).

Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks for your insight, I did go on-line and input the certificate number they provided. The only remaining question I have is that it references a "BTUH" heating number that doesn't match the BTU capacity of the furnace but that is probably me just not understanding what most of these numbers mean. Thanks for trying to help me understand this. At this point I have a certificate that says it qualifies. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to find an IRS agent that understands it any better than me!

[Thebil Illpay]

My above quote is from the Energy Star web site Thebil Illpay suggested if you picked the HVAC option. As I understand it, you MUST have an ARI certificate from the contractor...


I read the words "Manufacturers Certification Statement" on the website. So, what I understand is that if I buy an out of the box qualifying sytem from a manufacturer, the manufacturer would supply me with this.
Personally, as I am attempting to get a mix/match to qualify, I was going to rely on the ARI certificate. The table clearly implies that the ARI database is not a comprehensive list of all qualifying systems. "For a partial list of qualifying products go to:"

So, if this consumer can't find the ARI number, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is not a qualifying system.

[Thebil Illpay]

[QUOTE=bluesramsrock;3347962] I think I'm prohibited from posting the certification ...
QUOTE]

Would you please show me that in the rules?

[bluesramsrock]

[QUOTE=bluesramsrock;3347962] I think I'm prohibited from posting the certification ...
QUOTE]

Would you please show me that in the rules?

TERMS AND CONDITIONS
This Certificate shall be used for individual, personal, and confidential reference purposes only, and may be used only pursuant to the terms and
conditions listed. This Certificate and the contents hereof are proprietary products of AHRI. The contents of this Certficate may not, in whole or in part, be
reproduced; copied; disseminated; entered into a computer database; or otherwise utilized, in any form or manner or by any means, except for the user's
individual, personal and confidential reference. Contained herein are product information and certified ratings. AHRI does not endorse the product(s) listed in
this Certificate and makes no representations, warranties or guarantees as to, and assumes no responsibility for, the product(s) listed in this Certificate
AHRI expressly disclaims all liability for damages of any kind arising out of the use or performance of the product(s), or the unauthorized alteration of data,
listed in this Certificate.

[Thebil Illpay]

[QUOTE=Thebil Illpay;3356212]

TERMS AND CONDITIONS


Well, that seems to do it. However, those terms and conditions are likely rendered moot by AHRI's voluntary internet publication of printable certificates that include the certification number. So, the Terms and Conditions are likely written to prevent some company from downloading or otherwise procuring a complete list of certified systems and offering the list as their own product.

So, as the number is likely already published on AHRI's internet database, I'd be comfortable posting that number on this forum. It's a fair use of the number.

[bluesramsrock]

3389679

I can't see why the number would be a problem. I'd really like someone to explain how/why this 80% furnace qualifies? I'm glad it does just don't have a clue why. Common sense would say that all that is typically being used on the furnace is the variable speed fan so they effiency is coming from the HP being used the vast majority of the time. But I've never known our government to be good at the common sense thing!

[Thebil Illpay]

3389679

I can't see why the number would be a problem. I'd really like someone to explain how/why this 80% furnace qualifies? I'm glad it does just don't have a clue why. Common sense would say that all that is typically being used on the furnace is the variable speed fan so they effiency is coming from the HP being used the vast majority of the time. But I've never known our government to be good at the common sense thing!

I went back and read your original post. I think that the why has already been explained to you. The 18SEER Compressor with matched coil must make the 13eer/16seer threshold for the tax credit. In this case, the efficiency of the furnace has nothing to do with it.

Go back to the AHRI site. Forget about the furnace and just plug in your A/C.

[Thebil Illpay]

I went back and read your original post. I think that the why has already been explained to you. The 18SEER Compressor with matched coil must make the 13eer/16seer threshold for the tax credit. In this case, the efficiency of the furnace has nothing to do with it.

Go back to the AHRI site. Forget about the furnace and just plug in your A/C.

I'm way off, a heat pump has a lower threshold for the credit, as per jerryd 2008, post #17.

Just make sure the tax credit requires the following for heat pumps:

Split Systems:
HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

But again, if the heat pump system meets this threshold the efficiecy of the furnace shouldn't matter.

[bluesramsrock]

http://www.yorkupg.com/PDFFiles/345094-YTG-E-0808.pdf

The 4 ton will not do it. Are you sure you need 4 tons?

The 3 ton makes it.

Freezeking2000 - I'd appreciate your take on this certification. You seem like you understand how to match things up and what they are looking for?


Thanks!

[bluesramsrock]

Thought I would share this lesson I almost learned the hard way. So I'm ready to commit to buy the aforementioned system (80% Furnace and High SEER HP from York.) A huge incentive for me to buy this system was a large rebate from York.

The rebate turns out to be very specific about what is required in York components to qualify. Well the York contractor's quote didn't come close to meeting the requirements for this rebate with the non York components he was listing and even then he didn't have enough components included to qualify. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't caught this I would have been out of luck. Anyway just a FYI to those who find themselvers in a similar situation. This turned out to be a really good reason to have two contractors for the same line (York) bid on the job.

[jerryd_2008]

Thought I would share this lesson I almost learned the hard way. So I'm ready to commit to buy the aforementioned system (80% Furnace and High SEER HP from York.) A huge incentive for me to buy this system was a large rebate from York.

The rebate turns out to be very specific about what is required in York components to qualify. Well the York contractor's quote didn't come close to meeting the requirements for this rebate with the non York components he was listing and even then he didn't have enough components included to qualify. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't caught this I would have been out of luck. Anyway just a FYI to those who find themselvers in a similar situation. This turned out to be a really good reason to have two contractors for the same line (York) bid on the job.

It looks like you are saying that you are using the ARHI cert # 3389679 mentioned below for the 18 SEER Affinity heat pump using their 80% variable-speed, modulating furnace (listed as Y*(8,L)C*C20 in the cert) to satisfy the 2009 tax credit requirements.

Also are you then trying to satisfy the York Enhanced Premium System rebate listed on the web site "Seasonal Promotion"? From that page I understand that you need a CZH/YZH 18 SEER Affinity heat pump, matching ECM furnace, matching ARHI coil , matching York thermostat and 2 York IAQ Components.

For the rebate I have matched the 80% furnace to their YP8C (looks like the cert furnace if the 2nd character is picked as "P" and you pick the value "8" as the 3rd character) rebate requirement from a response from York's customer service which I tried hard to attach but could not since it is a graphic and comes out garbage.

Does the ADP coil in the cert satisfy the above matching ARHI coil? What exactly are the model numbers for a "matching York thermostat"? Except for model numbers it is pretty clear from the web site what the IAQ component choices are: Heat Recovery Ventilator, Energy Recovery Ventilator, Ultraviolet Air Treatment System, Electronic Air Cleaner, Media Air Cleaner (just a fancy filter right?), Humidifier, Dehumidifier.

Since it is extremely difficult to match the web page marketing model designations and the rebate requirements, would you share the component models you were bid?

[bluesramsrock]

It looks like you are saying that you are using the ARHI cert # 3389679 mentioned below for the 18 SEER Affinity heat pump using their 80% variable-speed, modulating furnace (listed as Y*(8,L)C*C20 in the cert) to satisfy the 2009 tax credit requirements.

Also are you then trying to satisfy the York Enhanced Premium System rebate listed on the web site "Seasonal Promotion"? From that page I understand that you need a CZH/YZH 18 SEER Affinity heat pump, matching ECM furnace, matching ARHI coil , matching York thermostat and 2 York IAQ Components.

For the rebate I have matched the 80% furnace to their YP8C (looks like the cert furnace if the 2nd character is picked as "P" and you pick the value "8" as the 3rd character) rebate requirement from a response from York's customer service which I tried hard to attach but could not since it is a graphic and comes out garbage.

Does the ADP coil in the cert satisfy the above matching ARHI coil? What exactly are the model numbers for a "matching York thermostat"? Except for model numbers it is pretty clear from the web site what the IAQ component choices are: Heat Recovery Ventilator, Energy Recovery Ventilator, Ultraviolet Air Treatment System, Electronic Air Cleaner, Media Air Cleaner (just a fancy filter right?), Humidifier, Dehumidifier.

Since it is extremely difficult to match the web page marketing model designations and the rebate requirements, would you share the component models you were bid?

Jerryd I'm not positive which "bid" your interested in the one that wouldn't qualify or the one that will? The one that didn't qualify was using non-York components (White-Rogers thermostat for example.)

Here is the bid with the components that qualifies for the rebate.

YP8C100C20MP11 - Furnace
YZH04811 4Ton 18 SEER 2 Stage Heat Pump
YE48160E210 Matching A Coil
York Humidifier (Model not listed but not specified on rebate.)
York Mac-10 Air Cleaner
York Energy Star Thermostat (Model Number not provided)

[jerryd_2008]

bluesramsrock, the winning one is the one I needed. Except for the exact IAQ components, that's probably what I need. The exact coil is still a bit of a mystery to me but the first part, YE48, matches up with the Indoor Unit Model in the AHRI cert.

So the listed configuration qualifies for the full $1,700 rebate, correct? Does the contractor give you some form of rebate validation so you can use it when applying to York?

Did or will the contractor give you an AHRI certificate for this unit to support your 2009 tax credit?

Thanks so much, bluesramsrock. For the newbie this rebate and tax credit process can be confusing to us, and it looks like the contractors too.

[motoguy128]

I found with the mfg rebates, you have to speed an extra $$$$ to get a rebate of $$$$ so it was a wash. They might as well advertise the rebates as buy a complete system, and we'll give you 50% off on a HRV, EAC, and our thermostat.

I found it was a better value to get a generic 5" media filter like a Trion Air Bear and a Visionpro IAQ thermostat (which has more capability anyway).

Sort of like buy one get on free deals. I'd rather just get 50% off the single unit, if I only need one anyway. The purpose is to push IAQ and other accessories that have MUCH, MUCH larger margins for mfg's. It's just part of sales and marketing. Nothing wrong with it, if you want those accessories and don't mind spending a little more.

[jerryd_2008]

The Amana proposer said something similar. I was hoping that the York Ultraviolet Air Treatment System (can just unplug it, right) and Media Air Cleaner (just a better filter, right) would be pretty cheap. All the other York HP, furnace, coil, thermostat I would probably want anyway. Might want the Electronic Air Cleaner in place of the UV light thingie to filter the house better if not too expensive to buy and run (electricity, filters). motoguy128, my logic still a bit naive (spelled "expensive")?

[beenthere]

Electronic air cleaners are a PITA.
Most owners get tired of cleaning them every month.

[jerryd_2008]

It looks like you are saying that you are using the ARHI cert # 3389679 mentioned below for the 18 SEER Affinity heat pump using their 80% variable-speed, modulating furnace (listed as Y*(8,L)C*C20 in the cert) to satisfy the 2009 tax credit requirements.

Also are you then trying to satisfy the York Enhanced Premium System rebate listed on the web site "Seasonal Promotion"? From that page I understand that you need a CZH/YZH 18 SEER Affinity heat pump, matching ECM furnace, matching ARHI coil , matching York thermostat and 2 York IAQ Components.

For the rebate I have matched the 80% furnace to their YP8C (looks like the cert furnace if the 2nd character is picked as "P" and you pick the value "8" as the 3rd character) rebate requirement from a response from York's customer service which I tried hard to attach but could not since it is a graphic and comes out garbage.

...

it is extremely difficult to match the web page marketing model designations and the rebate requirements

(correction: should be using AHRI above)

I really am sorry for beating this to death, but I am getting the York contractor who has talked to his Sales Manager at length telling me there is no Affinity 8T, 18 SEER York HP with matching York 80% modulating furnace and coil that meets the 2009 tax credit. I have also asked him to get me the full Premium York rebate of $1,700 which is detailed in the quote above. Time for the rebate is flying and the contractor comes out Monday with his updated proposal.

What am I missing here? Is the issue that he can't meet both the tax credit and the rebate (perhaps because of the ADP coil not being "matching York coil" because I think the 80% furnace is alright if my deciphering of the AHRI listing below is correct)? Or is there just total confusion which you pros can clear up?

Hoping for some clear sky in all of this fog - before Monday!

[bluesramsrock]

I really am sorry for beating this to death, but I am getting the York contractor who has talked to his Sales Manager at length telling me there is no Affinity 8T, 18 SEER York HP with matching York 80% modulating furnace and coil that meets the 2009 tax credit. I have also asked him to get me the full Premium York rebate of $1,700 which is detailed in the quote above. Time for the rebate is flying and the contractor comes out Monday with his updated proposal.

What am I missing here? Is the issue that he can't meet both the tax credit and the rebate (perhaps because of the ADP coil not being "matching York coil" because I think the 80% furnace is alright if my deciphering of the AHRI listing below is correct)? Or is there just total confusion which you pros can clear up?

Hoping for some clear sky in all of this fog - before Monday!

It is pretty sad that is so dang confusing. My system is now installed and the contractor swears that the components will meet the tax credit criteria and I have been been provided the certification and he has filed for the $1700rebate for me.

Here's how I look at the tax issue. With the certificate and the remote possibility of this ever becoming an audit issue I will take my chances. Even if he won't give you the ARHI certification I'd file for the credit.

I've had two different York contractors tell me the system I bought qualifies. I also had a Lennox contractor tell me a similar Lennox system qualified. I think there is enough confusion on this that you will be fine. I would concentrate on making sure you qualify for the $1700 rebate and worry about the tax credit later:D

[motoguy128]

Hoping for some clear sky in all of this fog - before Monday!

Good luck. The whole industry needs to rethinking on how it approaches it's marketing and sales IMO.

The challenge is that many of the higher end systems are more for comfort than efficiency, and the tax credits were not designed correctly to account for the lower efficiencies of larger systems. Manufacturers didn't have enough time to develop all of their systems to target the tax credits... which are to short lived to change your line-up to meet them.

Basically the industry was geared up to develop system to meet a high SEER ratings and provide better comfort and quiet operation, and less consideration into EER.

Personally, I find it irritating that you're forced to buy extra crap you don't need jsut ot get a discount. Actually I find discounts a little annoying. Why not jsut sell the product as a fair price to begin with. Are you really getting a rebate, or are you basically overpaying to begin with??? Our purchasing departent at work plays this little game with contractors... to a point where I think all the contractors have agreed to pad their bids equally by 10-20% so Purchasing can pat themselves on the back when they renegotiate the pricing before issuing a PO. I mean seriously, how can a guy in purchasing tell a contractor..."Hey, I think you can do the job with 1 less guy or 8 fewer hours and with 100' less conduit". Whatever! They already have negotiated their rates.

[bluesramsrock]

Good luck. The whole industry needs to rethinking on how it approaches it's marketing and sales IMO.

The challenge is that many of the higher end systems are more for comfort than efficiency, and the tax credits were not designed correctly to account for the lower efficiencies of larger systems. Manufacturers didn't have enough time to develop all of their systems to target the tax credits... which are to short lived to change your line-up to meet them.

Basically the industry was geared up to develop system to meet a high SEER ratings and provide better comfort and quiet operation, and less consideration into EER.

Personally, I find it irritating that you're forced to buy extra crap you don't need jsut ot get a discount. Actually I find discounts a little annoying. Why not jsut sell the product as a fair price to begin with. Are you really getting a rebate, or are you basically overpaying to begin with??? Our purchasing departent at work plays this little game with contractors... to a point where I think all the contractors have agreed to pad their bids equally by 10-20% so Purchasing can pat themselves on the back when they renegotiate the pricing before issuing a PO. I mean seriously, how can a guy in purchasing tell a contractor..."Hey, I think you can do the job with 1 less guy or 8 fewer hours and with 100' less conduit". Whatever! They already have negotiated their rates.

Regarding buying the extra crap. The only thing I didn't really "need" to buy to qualify for the rebate was the media filter but it was a nice to have and was actually priced very reasonably by the contractor because he wanted to get the job, I'm thinking not much over his cost. You only change the media once a year and it has no parts to break. So it works out to cost me me about the same price as replacing my regular filter once a quarter and I get a better filter.

The York touchscreen thermostat is actually pretty cool and I needed to replace that with new system they actually had to run new wire to the location. I also added a humidifier which I would have bought anyway.

I'm a bottom-line guy and the total price after rebate and tax credit is a decent deal and I get the accessories I need and a much more efficient system over what I had before.

[jerryd_2008]

... perhaps because of the ADP coil not being "matching York coil" because I think the 80% furnace is alright if my deciphering of the AHRI listing below is correct)? ...

Just got off the phone with the referenced sales manager (very nice guy) who read several clarifying letters that say York will accept the ADP coil and the York rebate will be extended until August 31 with install by mid-September. This distributor covers a large area in this part of the state and does a lot of technical HVAC. He wasn't really excited about the ADP coil due to aluminum construction (from what I heard). Another bad side is that they will have to order it - not good if I ever have coil problems.

Since many manufacturers seem to be having problems reaching the requirements in my 4 ton/dual fuel configuration and my 15 year old system is functioning without problems now, do you think I am just getting too far ahead of the game this early?

Not being familiar with the rebate cycles on HVAC, is it likely other manufacturers will have some form of rebate by August? This retired guy can use all the rebate help he can get at this price point.

[beenthere]

ADP rated that coil to the York equipment.

So you may need to get your tax certificate from ADP instead.

[jerryd_2008]

ADP rated that coil to the York equipment.

So you may need to get your tax certificate from ADP instead.

Don't understand, beenthere. I can go to the AHRI site, find the HP/furnace/coil there (using the cert number below given by the contractor) and just print it from there. I am not really sure how the tax credit cert issue process works. Why wouldn't the contractor or distributor (who ever does it) do that?

[beenthere]

I meant. Him/you, which ever has to get the Tax certificate from ADP.
I don't think the AHRI, qualifies as a tax certificate.