legally recover freon 22 with no EPA licence

[diddlywhoot]

Hi Everyone,

I have been told that I can legally recover the freon 22 from my home split system without the epa licence.

I must use all the right equipment as per EPA, must dispose of it as per EPA, BUT DO NOT NEED A LICENCE.

Am i being told a porkie.

thks
bg

[NormChris]

Without the proper EPA certification you would be in violation of the law. You would need at least a Type 2 certification.

[johnl45]

Anyone seen the cans of 134A the kid's are using to fill their bb guns with? It says on the can-approved propellant registered with the EPA.
This sure makes me wonder why I have to recover 134A.

[twcpipes]

I just have to ask:

Why do you even WANT or NEED to recover your gas from your system? Indulge me on this if you have a minute.
Thank, Tom

[johnnyonetruck]

I am an instructor for an EPA certification class and the law does not allow for any exceptions for home owners. If you do recover your ref., you will be in violation of the law.

[James 3528]

And your head will explode!

[diddlywhoot]

an answer to 2 questions asked:

why- I want to put Duracool 22a in its place. It is legal to use..don't let anyone fool you. 22a is legal to use.

is it legal to recover: yes it is, nobody can show me a law that prohibits me from recovering the gas, as long as i do it according to standards.

The epa only has authority in district of columbia, unless the states have adopted the laws.

The Epa certificate is the bogger, if you get it, you sign to adhere to their code. Although I cannot buy Freon, the rest I can do legally,

Show me the actual law.

[James 3528]

The why are you here if you have all the answers, Counselor?

Show us the law.

[diddlywhoot]

Hi,

Well that is why I came to a professional group, to get set straight. I need to see the actual EPA law that prohibits various things. When you get an EPA licence you agree to a lot of rules and regs that people who do not hold a licence are not obligated to honour.

as far as duracool 22a is concerned; if it were illegal do you think their would 4 distributors in the USA.

The Canadian Military just certified it for their use, BMW car's use it.

You will hear various inuendo about the product because their is a lot of vested interests would not like to see it used.

its called the FUD factor, sow fear, uncertainty and Doubt about something.

[NormChris]

I assume that you know of some legal manipulation that you believe exempts you from the regulations. Sort of like those who are convinced that the income tax laws don't apply to us?


Go the public library and ask to see the CFR. The Code of Federal Regulations. Look up section 608. That is the entire set of cfc regulations that contain the answers to your questions. You read it and tell me what it says. My take on this is that you can't work with refrigerants at all without the proper EPA certification. The closest an uncertified individual can come near refrigerant is if a certified person purchases the stuff and sends an uncertified person to pick it up for him. Other than that it is a breach of the federal regulations. Notice I said regulations and not law. There is a difference.

Norm

[twcpipes]

Screw the Law!

Them thar Revenuahs wanna come up that montan in ma back yahd, then thar is gonna ta be a wah. And thas ahl thar is toit

[cynic]

I'll save ya the effort :) here it is

Technician Certification
Both regulations require that technicians become certified. Technicians who repair or service MVACs must be trained and certified by an EPA-approved section 609 program. These programs are specifically designed to cover MVAC recycling equipment in accordance with Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) standards and section 609 regulatory requirements. After completing a required training program, MVAC technicians must pass a test to become certified. These tests are different from the section 608 certification tests .

Under section 608, EPA has established four types of certification for technicians who service and repair appliances other than MVACs. These technicians must be certified by passing a test in the appropriate area. All training and review classes for section 608 are voluntary; only passing the test is mandatory. The four categories of certification are:


Type I = small appliances
Type II = high-pressure appliances, except small appliances and MVACs
Type III = low-pressure appliances
Type IV (Universal) = all appliances except MVACs
In addition, people who service or repair MVAC-like appliances (e.g., farm equipment and other off-road vehicles) can choose to be certified under either the section 609 program or the section 608 Type II program. Due to similarities between MVACs and MVAC-like appliances, EPA recommends that technicians servicing MVAC-like appliances consider certification under section 609. Note that while buses using CFC-12 are MVACs, buses using HCFC-22 are not MVACs or MVAC-like appliances, but rather are high-pressure equipment covered under Type II of the section 608 test.


and here is the EPA's definition of a tech :)

Technician means any person who performs maintenance, service, or repair that could be reasonably expected to release class I or class II refrigerants from appliances, except for MVACs, into the atmosphere. Technician also means any person who performs disposal of appliances, except for small appliances, MVACs, and MVAC-like appliances, that could be reasonably expected to release class I or class II refrigerants from the appliances into the atmosphere. Performing maintenance, service, repair, or disposal could be reasonably expected to release refrigerants only if the activity is reasonably expected to violate the integrity of the refrigerant circuit. Activities reasonably expected to violate the integrity of the refrigerant circuit include activities such as attaching and detaching hoses and gauges to and from the appliance to add or remove refrigerant or to measure pressure and adding refrigerant to and removing refrigerant from the appliance. Activities such as painting the appliance, re-wiring an external electrical circuit, replacing insulation on a length of pipe, or tightening nuts and bolts on the appliance are not reasonably expected to violate the integrity of the refrigerant circuit. Performing maintenance, service, repair, or disposal of appliances that have been evacuated pursuant to § 82.156 could not be reasonably expected to release refrigerants from the appliance unless the maintenance, service, or repair consists of adding refrigerant to the appliance. Technician includes but is not limited to installers, contractor employees, in-house service personnel, and in some cases, owners.

[rubobornot]

An apprentice closely supervised by a certified person can recover refrigerant as stated in the most recent rules put out by the EPA, just looked at them today. Thats as close as it gets for an uncertified person to recover refrigerant.

[rdjr64]

Not knowing the law is no excuse. Read up! It can save you hassels and money.

[johnnyonetruck]

If you are not convinced that you would be in violation of the clean air act, then by all means, recover your refrigerant yourself. Vent it if you want to. It really doesn't matter to me, but if you do it, you are violating the clean air act. I do not know anything about duracool 22a so I can't tell you anything about it. The original post said R-22 from your home unit. I am not sure what 22a is made up of, but if it is used as a refrigerant, then the clean air act applies. If you are not worried about any ramifications, then by all means do it.........I just wouldn't announce it to anyone in your area. The refrigerant you recover will have to be disposed of at a reclaimation center and they will require a certification. I don't see how you plan to save money here though.........do you have access to a recovery machine, gauges, recovery tank, and a vac. pump? I don't think you will be renting these pieces of equipment at your local equipment rental. If you have to buy them, you are looking @ way more than it would cost to pay someone else to do the job. Another word of advise, watch out for replacement refrigerants and make sure of what you are getting.

[kim]

Salavage people are not required to use a certified recovery machine, but they still have to be EPA certified to connect their gages to the system. Then they have to sign the paper that says the freon has been recovered.

That is the only exception to the rule.

[condenseddave]

If you're arguing that Federal Laws are only enforceable in Washington, DC., Please post your address and the time when we can be there with the EPA to witness the refrigerant recovery.

You'd best consult the judicial branch of the federal government before you make assumptions like that.

But, if you're serious, so am I. Post your location and a time/date. We'll see if federal statutes are enforceable or not!

[condenseddave]

Hell, I'll pay for Wiggins' plane fare!

[twainagain]

johnl45: "Anyone seen the cans of 134A the kid's are using to fill their bb guns with?"

Heck...you can buy the 134A by the pound at the office supply to "clean" PCB or monitor screens...and, you get a nice little hand-cooler out of the deal as well!

DWC

[sonc]

DIDDLY..I'm placing you under Citizen's Arrest..The Charge?....."INTENT TO VENT"
I'll let you off with a warning if you promise to never post again

[Edited by sonc on 08-15-2003 at 10:08 PM]

[doggonewild]

Originally posted by diddlywhoot
Hi Everyone,

I have been told that I can legally recover the freon 22 from my home split system without the epa licence.

I must use all the right equipment as per EPA, must dispose of it as per EPA, BUT DO NOT NEED A LICENCE.

Am i being told a porkie.

thks
bg


The only way a homeowner can legally reclaim the freon from their system is through inhaling it, but that's not such a good idea..

[sysint]

Isn't Duracool a propane blend? If so, that's out in the US anyway. Not approved

[The Penguin]

I just checked the web site duracool.com
r22a is listed as " dimethylmethane"
MANUFACTURER: Duracool
ADDRESS: 10260 - 21 Street NW
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6P 1W4
PHONE: (780) 449-4777
A Canadian Company it would seem

opps further investigation:
DURACOOL USA, LLC
info@duracoolusa.com
P. O. BOX 24596, Chattanooga, Tennessee, 37422-4596, US
phone: 1-800-427-4510 fax: 1-423-624-7619
Privacy Policy/Terms of Service
AND THIS IS WHERE OUR "FRIEND" is getting his ideas from:

THE ENVIRONMENTAL ALTERNATIVE CHOICE
Containes No Freon or any other chemicals that would require a license to purchase. If an alternative refrigerant requires a license; it's a mixture of Freon(R12) and other chemicals

I clipped that from the web site: http://www.duracoolusa.com/

So how about that?

To the person that thinks he can do this with out a liscence DON"T BELIEVE everthing you read

one other thing dimethylmethane sounds like a flamable and possibly explosive mixture to me and it does say so in its msds sheets

[Edited by The Penguin on 08-16-2003 at 08:04 PM]

[The Penguin]

I just checked the web site duracool.com
r22a is listed as " dimethylmethane"
MANUFACTURER: Duracool
ADDRESS: 10260 - 21 Street NW
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6P 1W4
PHONE: (780) 449-4777
A Canadian Company it would seem

opps further investigation:
DURACOOL USA, LLC
info@duracoolusa.com
P. O. BOX 24596, Chattanooga, Tennessee, 37422-4596, US
phone: 1-800-427-4510 fax: 1-423-624-7619
Privacy Policy/Terms of Service
AND THIS IS WHERE OUR "FRIEND" is getting his ideas from:

THE ENVIRONMENTAL ALTERNATIVE CHOICE
Containes No Freon or any other chemicals that would require a license to purchase. If an alternative refrigerant requires a license; it's a mixture of Freon(R12) and other chemicals

I clipped that from the web site: http://www.duracoolusa.com/

So how about that?

[condenseddave]

Pingwing, you're stuttering.:D

Don't inhale the duracool, boys and girls, this is what happens.:p

[sysint]

Hey der' Penquin, type in a google search for dimethylmethane and tell me what you get.

Last time I checked not legal in the US.

EDIT: http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html You will notice 18 states have banned it entirely.

[Edited by sysint on 08-17-2003 at 07:47 AM]

[The Penguin]

Well I'm glad its banned I'm sure there's good reason too
As for the double post thats weird its supposed to be an edit. any way this guy seems to think hes stumbled upon a loop hole but whatever

[Paul Pippin]

Section 608 of the clean air act states that "any person who has the possibility to release refrigerant into the atmosphere including contractors and home owners must be certified" Let me know when you are going to recover I would like to video it.

[itsamine]

hell all i want is part of the fine he's going to pay. not much 10%.

[Chad711]

Why can everyone buy 134a cans at Walmart and any other auto shop?

Ive been wondering this lately..

[flexogod]

Does it concern anyone else that he's still fighting with skilled professionals in the field and instructors dealing with such issues even 4 months later? Is this the sign of a person stable enough to be allowed to fill pressurized lines with a combustible gas? How about the fact that he couldn't even post in the right area of the site to address Residential concerns? The original poster just wants to get a rise out of people apparently and did in fact find the right thread eventually. Maybe he was screwed over by a contractor and now wastes the time of techs nationwide for revenge, who knows? Perhaps we'll get an update on his progress at http://www.darwinawards.com.

[sysint]

HarveyK is this you?

[kim]

Shoot nothing is illegal until you get caught, right?

Just go do your thing. Personally I would like to see the EPA crack down on non-certified techs. I would like to see everybody required to do the job legally. It just makes it more expensive for us legal people. It is another place low bid hacks can cut corners and price legitamate contractors out of the job. If they get one person in each region and put the story in the local newspapers, practices will change. I quit a job one time because the boss, a licensed contractor, would not provide recovery units. The boss would have paid the fine, but I would have lost a career, that I truely enjoy. I wonder why some of these tabliod jurnalist don't set up AC tech on this, then turn the video over to the EPA. If everybody recovered R22 it would not increase in price very fast.

Did you recover today?

[cooling]

My first post I made a joke. Then I started thinking about all the times I was bit by rifer.


If you have to ask, don't do it.

[Edited by cooling on 08-21-2003 at 11:42 PM]

[cooling]

I was kidding don't do that!

[condenseddave]

Why do you guys insist on feeding the trolls???:confused:

[The Penguin]

It kinda got my intrest up as I had never heard of duracool did some asking around and no respectable supplier will carry it just the suppliers that caters to hackers, resd applience guys and hack auto a/c outfits your typical bottom feeders.

[sonc]

Exactly correct, Pingu (do you mind if I call you by your first name?) Duracool only available at the "suppliers of last resort"

[The Penguin]

Not at all its fine by me

[mtec]

Diddly when you go to charge and recover from your system, tell me when and where. I would like to come buy with a video camera so I can get my 10 thousand dollar reward money for catching you after you have been advised that it is illegal.

[comfortmaster1]

Originally posted by NormChris
Notice I said regulations and not law. There is a difference.

Norm

What's the difference?

[Wannamakeice]

Originally posted by johnl45
Anyone seen the cans of 134A the kid's are using to fill their bb guns with? It says on the can-approved propellant registered with the EPA.
This sure makes me wonder why I have to recover 134A.
because its not being used as a refrigerant , just like 22 being used as a trace gas in leak checking , when used in this matter , its not considered a refrigerant , but a trace gas for leak checking. stupid i know but its a fact .

[snipe70e]

Originally posted by comfortmaster1

Originally posted by NormChris
Notice I said regulations and not law. There is a difference.

Norm

What's the difference?



A law is past by an legeslative body (Congress, State legislature, etc.), a regulation is written by a regulating body (epa, osha and to ,many others to count)
Len

[norelay]

Snipe,

Well said and to the point. Not to mention, absolutely correct.

Norelay

[Paul Pippin]

I suppose that anyone can justify not following the rules. The bank robber justifies it one way or another and I suppose you can also. The bottom line is that section 608 of the Clean Air Act says that it is illegal to release refrigerant to the atmosphere.

[freezon]

diddlywhoot, you are 100% correct. It is no problem for you to recover or even vent the r22 for that matter, cause, hey the EPA has no jurisdiction so just open the system and let it go. By the way, I am making a documentary on homeowners who fight the tyranny of the EPA so I will need to be there with my video camera if at all possible. e-mail me your address and schedule. my people will call your people.

[a/c daddy]

there is no law saying you have to pay income tax either.

try that one in court along with the "doesn't say you need a license to recover" theory.

[dan wong]

Originally posted by kim
Shoot nothing is illegal until you get caught, right?



[Edited by dan wong on 10-06-2003 at 02:12 AM]

[dan wong]

Originally posted by kim
Shoot nothing is illegal until you get caught, right?

Just go do your thing. Personally I would like to see the EPA crack down on non-certified techs. I would like to see everybody required to do the job legally. It just makes it more expensive for us legal people. It is another place low bid hacks can cut corners and price legitamate contractors out of the job. If they get one person in each region and put the story in the local newspapers, practices will change....

Maybe the EPA can learn from our local news investigator. Channel 5 in Phoenix, Az.

They set up hidden camera in peoples home, call a few service companies and video them. (similiar to 20/20)

I was video in one of those sting operation...I came out as the good guy. Unforturnately when they air the program the good guys only get a few second. They spend the rest of the hour trying to interview the bad guys. the bad guy stole the show.

[dan wong]

Is the EPA still alive? are they actually out there enforcing some of the regulation? or are they sitting behind a desk and dream up more regulation to justify their job.

In Phoenix, Arizona. I bet you there are more part time, un-License air conditioning/Refrigeration service people than there are Licensed people. I have never heard anyone got caught by the EPA! When I walk into our locale auto discount house, autozone, or checker auto, they sell R134A to anybody.

[sysint]

.....you just keep in mind 2 wong's don't make a white.

(sorry, couldn't pass it up)

[dan wong]

Originally posted by sysint
.....you just keep in mind 2 wong's don't make a white.

(sorry, couldn't pass it up)

You didn't finish. Here, let me finish the joke for you.

what does two white make?

answere: An Airplane.

Let get back to the subject of recovering freon and EPA in general.

Every day I ran into jobs that are done by none License service people. (I suspect you ran into a few yourself). Did you ever hear EPA catch any? If I see this every day, you mean EPA couldn't catch even 'ONE'.

I get this mix felling; On one hand I think the EPA should crack down on a few unlicensee so we licensed people are playing in a level field. On the other hand I am making a good living fixing hack jobs.

whats your opinion?

[thewoodman]

its interesting..I haven't heard or read about any servicemen being fined for illegly venting. I have gone on the epa web site, and can find where the epa went after earthgrains..and other large corporations. And recently walmart. It looks like they target the big boys. What do you think?

[kim]

Its a big sham. A company is advertizing a can of 134a with cheap gage attached for HO use. The poster in the autoparts store says if you can add fix-a-flat to your tire, you can use this device. It has a picture and everything. It may not be illegal to make it. It is illegal to sell it to anybody not 609 certified.
Same goes for internet sales of CU. You have to have 608 Card to buy the freon inside that charged split system.

[prestiege]

ive only come across one guy i seen venting R22, not that i cared but when he let 2 10 ton units go, i wish nextel had camera phones

[rookie903]

How many of us here can say that we've never vented before. I can honestly say that I've never intentionally vented refrigerant.

[dschwab9]

Originally posted by kim
It may not be illegal to make it. It is illegal to sell it to anybody not 609 certified.
Same goes for internet sales of CU.

Actually it's not (should be), but they can legally sell 134a to anyone. You can't legally put it in your car without 609 cert, but you can buy it

[mathias]

Hi thar kiddies,
Now Jimmy don't get yur feathers all out of place!!! If the rules of the EPA apply to every one then why is Jow public allowed to purchace freon from Wal-Mart and any auto supplier!!!!!!!
End of discussion.

[thewoodman]

ok

[thewoodman]

let me explain something...what you see at walmart is 134A...it is not in the same category as r12,,r22.etc..it contains no chlorine and odp...(ozone depletion potential) is zero. It is the chlorine, fluorine, and carbon in the r12,r22..etc that the epa regulates. 134A can be bought off the shelf without penalty. And vented.

[hvacbear]

134A has a zero ODP, but EPA regulations state any refrigerant must be recovered except a small amount of “trace gas” R-22 used with nitrogen for leak testing.

[maddfridge]

hi there i have a question for twainagain

I am in the uk and the only way toget 134a here is through wholesalers can you really by ikg bottles from your office suppliers ????????

We have had regulations in force from europe since 2000 over enting etc

last check 2000 pound fine for a person and 20000 pounds fine for venting in the uk at present someone may say different but that is the way i see it here at the moment

[thewoodman]

yes

[yooper]

My boss bought, a few months ago, six 30lb cans of 134-a at Sam's club. For alot less than at the supplier. With no certification check.

[jrbenny]

Originally posted by yooper
My boss bought, a few months ago, six 30lb cans of 134-a at Sam's club. For alot less than at the supplier. With no certification check. Can't get any more. My dad tried. After they got their peepees slapped, they thought better of sellin to john q.

[thewoodman]

sure

[thewoodman]

lets see

[dschwab9]

Sam's still has 134a. They stopped carrying R12 and 22 after the issues with the EPA. I've bought it there a number of times - a lot cheaper than the supply house. Only thing is it has the automotive fitting on the tank, but I've got an adapter.

[thewoodman]

lets see

[dschwab9]

Originally posted by thewoodman
lets see

Let's see what? http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/images/icons/icon17.gif

[gus99]

Originally posted by kim
Same goes for internet sales of CU. You have to have 608 Card to buy the freon inside that charged split system.

That's incorrect. Charged "Split Systems" can be sold to non-certified customers. ead the rules carefully, it specifically addresses this. Now it may be illegal to open the valves but it's not illegal to buy and sell them.

Example, look in the Grainger or Johnstone catalog. They have all Rxx products flagged requiring Proof of EPC cert. But the split systems are not under that code so may be sold openly.

I know because I bought two condensers from Grainger and I'm not EPA certified. My employer has an account there, that's all I needed, even used my own credit card.

Hee hee!

[dschwab9]

The local Grainger here checks certification on them. They are not legally required to, but they do. It also says in their catalog "Refrigerant Certification Required", so It's apparently company policy to check. In your case, they probably had your employers certification on file.

[gus99]

Originally posted by dschwab9
The local Grainger here checks certification on them. They are not legally required to, but they do. It also says in their catalog "Refrigerant Certification Required", so It's apparently company policy to check. In your case, they probably had your employers certification on file.

That's true for refridgerant cans but split condensers aren't tagged as "certification required". I cannot buy Freon even though the company has a cert on file. At our Grainger (Los Angeles) the person who picks up the Freon must have a certification.

Read the EPA rules. It does specificallt omit buying equipment even if charged. It may sound silly but that's the government. I guess they assume nobody is going to buy a $600 condenser just to get 15lbs of R22 out of it.

[royjon]

Just to keep you guys up on 608,
sometimes you don't have to be certified:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/608fact.html#techcert

"Safe Disposal Requirements...

...Under these requirements, the final person in the disposal chain (e.g., a scrap metal recycler or landfill owner) is responsible for ensuring that refrigerant is recovered from equipment before the final disposal of the equipment. However, persons "upstream" can remove the refrigerant and provide documentation of its removal to the final person if this is more cost-effective...

...Technician certification is not required for individuals removing refrigerant from appliances in the waste stream..."

I have used this section when disposing of window units and humidifiers in my shop, letting our new guy do it after he was trained but before he was certified.

[Edited by royjon on 08-20-2004 at 06:43 PM]

[jrbenny]

I cannot buy Freon even though the company has a cert on file. At our Grainger (Los Angeles) the person who picks up the Freon must have a certification.Grainger may be doing that, but that's not the EPA regulation. Joe Part Runner can get the jug if the company has a certification on file. That's the EPA regulation.

I spent some time trying to understand why my employer was asking for certifications. I found that we were only really required to have certifications for one person of each company that purchased jugs of refrigerant. We can sell as many CU's without having to ask for a ref. certification, but we must have a cert. on file if they purchase a jug of ref.

If my mind is in full gear, the equipment exclusion was invoked about 6 to 8 months after the initial release of the regulations. There has been discussion of requiring certification to purchase units. However, there's a big push against it by equipment manufacturers that sell direct to national accounts and non-profit organizations. How many preachers or Walmart managers do you know with their universal certification? So, I'm sure the equipment exclusion will be there for a while.

[jfs1138]

Reading this thread I'm flashing back to installing the AC in the house I grew up in with my dad. I was about 10 at the time so my memory is a bit shaky but we did it ourselves. The furnace was already setup for it, we got some friends to help carry and place the outside unit and my dad was a good electrician for that part. But the refrigerant came already in the lineset. I specifically remember that, we just tightened up the connections which broke through some foil looking stuff sealing the end of the big copper pipe and it was all done.

Did my dad buy that pre-filled lineset from a distributor? I have no idea where he got the system, or what it was, i feel like it had a sears label on it, but I don't remember :) This was in 1977 or 78 or so in Chicago. That system ran for more than 25 years with never a single recharge or any service call worse than a cleaning. but then, my dad changed the furnace filters :D

I take it that these things are no longer available as a DIY kit for the home owner?

[thewoodman]

whatever

[gus99]

Yes, Sears did sell DIY split systems in the 70s, probably in the 60s too, You are correct, the line sets were pre-charged and worked as you describe, tighten down the connectors, and some seal was broken.

The EPA rules requiring certification were invoked I beleive in 1994. Prior to that, anyone could buy a jug of R22. It was also perfectly legal and standard proceedure to bleed down a charged system directly into the air. Connect a charging hose and let her rip!

I also agree there is a lot of voodoo promoted on the Residential forum section. Yes, these triple vac and nitrogen blead brazing operations are top of the line practices. But really, not too many companies do this. I never witnessed it and have seen may split systems changed out by many different companies.

Just vac the system for a few hours, check and balance the charge according to manufactures instructions, and the system will last 20+ years.


Originally posted by jfs1138
Reading this thread I'm flashing back to installing the AC in the house I grew up in with my dad. I was about 10 at the time so my memory is a bit shaky but we did it ourselves. The furnace was already setup for it, we got some friends to help carry and place the outside unit and my dad was a good electrician for that part. But the refrigerant came already in the lineset. I specifically remember that, we just tightened up the connections which broke through some foil looking stuff sealing the end of the big copper pipe and it was all done.

Did my dad buy that pre-filled lineset from a distributor? I have no idea where he got the system, or what it was, i feel like it had a sears label on it, but I don't remember :) This was in 1977 or 78 or so in Chicago. That system ran for more than 25 years with never a single recharge or any service call worse than a cleaning. but then, my dad changed the furnace filters :D

I take it that these things are no longer available as a DIY kit for the home owner?

[top-notch-tek]

Where is this Diddlywhoot ???

He seemed so confident...