Want to give a Quote? [Archive] - HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air & Refrigeration Discussion

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 01:27 AM

I'm located in St. John the Baptist Parish, Louisiana. This is the AHRI of the system I want 3385978 and I'll want a filter rack and an apprpriate two stage compatible thermostat. You're free to convince me otherwise, as well as free to charge me to do an exactly accurate Manual J as long as I get the analysis.

There will be no ductwork. You'll have to remove the existing system and allow me to resheetrock the closet. I'll put a new shelf in at the same time at the appropriate height. You'll cut the hole out when you come back.

There will be at least one 90 at the coil and maybe two at the compressor. I don't know how radius's affect the TEL. But, exiting the slab in the HVAC closet two 1'6"-2' radius's (they' actually have to be slightly elliptical) could be made in an S -shape to align the line set for the vertical rise to the coil. At the compressor either another 90 - for a total of two at the compressor - or a 1'6" - 1'8" actual radius could be made.

I'm moving the compressor - the total horizontal linear feet between the compressor and coil will be 68 lf . The coil is approximately 7' above grade and the compressor will be approximately 1' above grade, measured from the connections. The line set will be approx. 8" below grade in a 4" PVC pipe.

I'm supplying the electrical service to a disconnect. I'm supplying the 4" PVC
There will be at least one 90 at the coil and one at the compressor. I'm supplying the concrete pad. I'm planning this in such a way that the line set passes under the slab in the 4" PVC pipe (so the line set can extend beyond the edge of the slab and be easy to work with) and exit very close, vertically, to where the line set fittings are on the compressor.

If necessary because line sets can't be had in greater than 50' lengths I'll put an in ground, sealable PVC box at an appropriate distance from the compressor to allow a soldered connection.

Any takers or critics?

Some Dude

05-13-2009, 02:48 AM

Are you sure you want to design all of this yourself? Have you had a pro look at the job already?
Please tell em you arent an engineer.:rolleyes:

dandyme

05-13-2009, 06:02 AM

you have issues with what you proposed to do.

I'd suggest you contact the manufacturer for appropriate direction..............

OHyou can't.

to tell you the flaw would constitute DIY instruction

bmathews

05-13-2009, 07:58 AM

A bit of advice, don't start dictating what needs to be done. We do it for a living and will do it the way it needs to be done or we won't do it. If you called us and went into this diatribe, you would probably get hung up on. We will not deal with people that tell us how to do our job. The very few times we have and we did as they asked or told us, it turned into a total disaster. Fool me once, shame on you , fool us twice, shame on me.

john_ertw

05-13-2009, 09:52 AM

I don't like the responses from the pros here. I have recently had 5 different contractors in to look at replacing my furnace and a/c (I didn't bother with the many others that I spoke to on the phone that only sounded interested in selling their brand, not in making sure I make the right choice). Not one of them was able to explain how/why their recommended system would give me the best comfort. I tried to get a heat gain/heat loss load calc. The responses I got ranged from them not knowing what I was talking about to "you don't need that.... your 2800 sq ft home needs xxx btu and yyy tons". One contractor mentioned that my return duct work may not be large enough, but backed away (I think he was afraid of not getting the work because of extra charges for fixing duct work). The others all said it was fine as is. I looked into it by looking at airflow specs of the furnace I'm purchasing and specs of the media air filters and comparing my duct work to 3 other houses in the same size range. I went as far as talking to the engineer at the media air filter manufacturer to ensure I was on the right track. I can assure you my duct work is undersized.

Now the contractors on this forum are nothing like what I have seen in my area (I wish I could get one of you guys to do my house). If the OP has only had experience with contractors similar to my experience I understand exactly why he has spelled out every last detail... because the contractor will not (which may result in a poorly choosen system).

If you re-read the OP, he stated you are free to recommend a different system, but show him why... don't just say "the brand you are looking at is junk". Perform a proper load calc and show him that he is wrong (or right). Explain how different components may make his home more comfortable.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 10:50 AM

Thank you John.

[QUOTE=bmathews;3300162]A bit of advice, don't start dictating what needs to be done.
I didn't dictate at all what needs to be done, not one bit. I dictated what I'm doing and what whoever is not doing or doing that must be done. {i.e -a hole must be cut, this isn't something it takes a pro to decide -do you understand the difference?} The line set information was thought material for pro's. I've already had one pro offer, unsolicited, that he gives a line by line breakdown and anything like carpentry and concrete I wanted to do myself he'd knock that right off. I told him that I'd be supplying the service to the disconnect and he didn't flinch. Actually, service to the disconnect is the electrician's job anyhow, not the HVAC tech's, although you are likely qualified to do it. I'd tell you to get off my property.

you have issues with what you proposed to do.

Maybe so. But it's definitely not the total equivalent line set length or the capacity or ability of the equipment to do what I expect it to do.

stonewallred

05-13-2009, 11:36 AM

Hate to sound like an a**hole, but why not go get your EPA certificate and do it all yourself? If you want to dictate the way stuff is ran and where, and how, you would save yourself a lot of hassle and headaches doing it all yourself for sure.
Of course, the local inspector will probably not pass it, it probably won't work correctly and it will cost twice as much when you finally have to get a contractor out to fix your mess.
I have been on this forum for awhile, don't post much, but if you want a job done right, hire a professional. Ask around, find out who your friends and neighbors use, who has a good reputation and check them out.
Something that i have not seen much of here is the fact that homeowners can often find out who are the professionals in town at the local supply house. I get many unsolicited customer referrals from the local houses due to my reputation at them.
They know who attends training sessions, who has few warranty issues that are not real defects, who gets the right parts, and which ones are jacklegs in a station wagon
As far as the OP, one way to make sure you don't get a quality job is to approach the contractors like they are idiots and don't know their jobs. I have walked off many jobs and bids when I have been treated as an idiot,thief or crook by customers. Mainly because A) I have other customers, and B) In the summer my house is cool and in the winter my house is warm.

Senior Tech

05-13-2009, 11:57 AM

The op is not being unreasonable...some of the members are.

I suspect that when and if he meets up with a member here they would politely and professionally explain what meets proper installation guidelines and what does not.

Some customers may want more involvement then others...learn to be versatile and you'll make more money :)

There is a line, but I don't believe he has even come close to it yet.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 12:01 PM

Hate to sound like an a**hole, but why not go get your EPA certificate and do it all yourself? If you want to dictate the way stuff is ran and where, and how, you would save yourself a lot of hassle and headaches doing it all yourself for sure.

Well, you sound like one. I haven't dictated at all how anything is ran. I've given the parameters and the situation at each end - the coil end and the compressor end. I included the possibilties of the connections, how many possible 90's vs. radii, only to give an imaginative tech that might care to give a price something to think about.

I've dictated where it is being ran to. As long as where I want it is within the manufacturer's spec's, what difference should it make to any HVAC tech?

I don't have to be an engineer -that's already been done. http://216.122.22.11/FetchDocument.aspx?ID=8184cf1b-e506-46a1-833f-d3144f1c65e6 Page 15 gives the refrigerant line lengths - something no tech anywhere can dispute the existence of, but maybe the accuracy.
If you compare the information I gave to the chart and apply your brain you'll see why I gave the information I did. So, the bottom line to this is the manufacturer says I can put it a particular distance from the coil and if you say I can't - unless you are an engineer - you are wrong.

Sparks Air

05-13-2009, 12:43 PM

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 01:50 PM

What information is it unreasonable to ask for in a quote?
Or is it easier to answer what information is it reasonable to ask for in a quote?

Based on the vehemence of some poster's, I've decided to approach this differently. It's possible that this attitude is the rule rather than the exception.

I have another contractor coming out at 2 p.m today.

neophytes serendipity

05-13-2009, 02:09 PM

Why are you running the lineset in PVC?

Is this new construction... or are you cutting the slab out the get the PVC in there?

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 02:14 PM

Why are you running the lineset in PVC?

Is this new construction... or are you cutting the slab out the get the PVC in there?

I'm running the lines in PVC as an extension of the existing under slab PVC to run the lines out to the spot I'd prefer the compressor, if it is possible. I figure, perhaps incorrectly, that the PVC conduit is preferable to direct burial. I think this because of the insulation degradation in being exposed to the soil and some heat transfer factors with the lines I'm not sure of.

It's interesting that you ask about cutting concrete. Our original thoughts about moving it would have required cutting through the garage floor slab and digging under the grade beams.

Senior Tech

05-13-2009, 02:15 PM

Explain what you would like done and what your expectations are of the system you purchase.

Then rely on the professionals to help guide you thru which of your desires are feasible and which ones are not.

The customer and the company are a team in this...however, when it comes time to install it leave them plenty of space to do their job, a good install team will periodically update you and answer any questions/concerns you have.

classical

05-13-2009, 02:18 PM

Where is St. Johns Parrish I may know someone for you. One problem I see is limiting the contractors to a specific brand. I personally will not install Rheem equipment for numerous reason that are not relevant.

What you need to understand many small contractors own their own business because they are control freaks and do not like having anything dictated to them. We have all had customers that become very involved and it can just screw up a job beyond belief. That is not saying you would cause that problem but for most of us it just is not worth the time or effort to find out as generally by the time you find out it is too late to extricate yourself.

Actually some of the things you mentioned are very prudent and I applaud you for determining the necessity, but I think a better tact would be tell the contractor I want the condenser here and the indoor equipment here. If they do not recommend encasing the refrigerant copper in PVC move on or ask why. Let them sell you on their skills or lack of them. When they present their case if you find it lacking ask why they do not think this or that should be done. You will find many times that a contractor would like to do it the proper way but they have been beat down by customers only wanting the cheapest price that they no longer strive for excellence. I know I find myself offering simpler less technical jobs just so I can stay in business.

I lost a job just the other day because I refused to install a condenser only on a 25 year old TXV coil. The condenser that failed is 12 years old and should have at least 4 or 5 more years. The return air capacity is barely 50% required and several other problems that need addressing to give a new unit a chance to last and be efficient. I was told in no uncertain terms my services were not needed because I would not just do what he wanted. The guy was a mechanical engineer and lives in 600K home.

So do not take offense we have been beaten up so many times we are gun shy.

neophytes serendipity

05-13-2009, 02:25 PM

What information is it unreasonable to ask for in a quote?
Or is it easier to answer what information is it reasonable to ask for in a quote?

I guess a fair response would be to ask: What are you willing to pay for in your quote?

No one wants to provide equipment sizing details because some potential customers use that info for a DIY approach.

The same can be said for many other technical details of a difficult installation.

It is also possible for a reasonably experienced person to make a pretty accurate estimation of equipment size. Now, I know that isn't the same as a load calculation, but where is the line drawn between a "free estimate" and a meaningful proposal?

There are very few job specifications on the residential side of the HVAC business, and so many think the work "isn't rocket science" so the result is a race to the bottom for the lowest bid. Obviously, the contractor doesn't want to waste hours fine tuning something many do not understand. Then the customer is PO'd when it doesn't work.

I would rather work with a customer that understands the finer points of HVAC- even if that person knows more than I do (which I'm not afraid to admit), but even then, the time spent has to result in a sale of something, or else it is just wasted time.

classical

05-13-2009, 02:25 PM

There are several reasons to run the line set in PVC. The one already mentioned is good for starters. Whenever a line set is run underground it should be in PVC and the PVC should be sealed from the outside environment. This protects the Insul-Tube it also keeps the copper isolated from contact with the earth and using it as a heat sink. You also do not want ground water connecting the liquid and suction lines. Last what if you need to pull new copper for some reason, it simple to pull the old and pull in new; try that with a buried line set not in PVC.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 02:36 PM

St. John Parish is 25 miles west of New Orleans. My brand specification is based on a recomendation from a guy that gave me an American 'Standard quote that I asked for. He mentioned that he has Rheem units around here 20 years old and runhning. That tells me he is comfortable with that brand.

I arrived at my spec's for the equipment based on the AHRI after discovering that Rheem had no out of the box systems that would fit in my house without rebuilding two walls one of which is bearing and the other has a subpanel in it - and that met the tax credit. Everything after that was checking the spec's on everything, myself.

I'm getting other quotes. I'm going to tell them what I'd like and just shut up. Which is what I had done prior to finding the AHRI matched ystem in the Rheem that earns me the tax credit- and -on top of all that a system that must overall be less expensive to purchase.

small change

05-13-2009, 02:43 PM

There are several reasons to run the line set in PVC. .

And all of them are good ones.

A number of years ago I had one that was run in PVC but wasn't sealed to the outside enviorment and snow and or water got into the pvc.

Then there was an issue with the pvc piping coming in contact with the liquid line. Eventually the liquid line rubbed against the pvc enough to cause a refrigerant leak and the system lost it's refrigerant.

But then while it was running it was in a vaccum and drawing water into the lineset, which eventually led to a charge of Murder in the first degree of the Compressor.

And replacement of the Evaporator and of course the lineset

68 feet and run underground?

Isn't there anyway to run that lineset up and over then down to the condenser?

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 02:43 PM

[QUOTE=neophytes serendipity;3302492]I guess a fair response would be to ask: What are you willing to pay for in your quote?
QUOTE]

Fair enough. What should I be willing to pay for, aside from a manual J?

I don't want a duct analysis because A) the ducts worked fine before and B) I cannot afford any additional work.

I do need to increase my return air. It is going to have to come from the second floor. I have a means and the knowledge to get it in. How do I handle this?

Edit: The existing return air should be just enough almost three square feet-but you can never have too much.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 02:47 PM

Isn't there anyway to run that lineset up and over then down to the condenser?

Yes. You ever seen any Ma and Pa kettle movies? Or the Beverly Hillbillies - before they moved to Beverly Hills? That's what it would look like.

Good points about the rubbing of the lines against the PVC. Now I'll be thinking of a cure for that but I'll have to shut up about it. :D

Senior Tech

05-13-2009, 02:48 PM

Quotes with me are free and will remain that way. And yes, I will discuss sizing.

I guess that I'm fortunate that in our area that if there is a diy'r that they are vain enough to think they can size it also. Or they realize based on my professionalism that they've probably attempted to bite off more than they can chew and decided it's best to leave it to the pros :)

neophytes serendipity

05-13-2009, 02:56 PM

Fair enough. What should I be willing to pay for, aside from a manual J?

I don't want a duct analysis because A) the ducts worked fine before and B) I cannot afford any additional work.

I do need to increase my return air. It is going to have to come from the second floor. I have a means and the knowledge to get it in. How do I handle this?

Well, the ducts didn't work fine before because you want more return air.

You should be willing to pay for any service requiring the use of a tape measure.

Giving a "free estimate" based on what is there is quick, easy and painless.

How to go about getting the information, even if you have to pay extra? That's the tricky part because as mentioned earlier, many people do not want to be told what to do or how to do it.

You could ask how much a load calculation is as a separate item, and clarify that you are paying for all of the information. If someone asked me this, I would give them a number.

For the ducting issue, if you know what you want, just ask how much it would be to install XXX ductwork in XXX fasion. No need to explain anything- just ask for a price. Again, if someone said I want a XXX size duct run from there to here, I would give a number. If that person knew where to run it, even better- but sometimes unexpected stuff pops up.

Easy enough?

Edit: You can spend $50 and do your own load calc with HVAC Calc above. Don't know if you have done that or not.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 03:00 PM

Then there was an issue with the pvc piping coming in contact with the liquid line. Eventually the liquid line rubbed against the pvc enough to cause a refrigerant leak and the system lost it's refrigerant.

I just remembered, the contractor I'm getting the Rheem prices from said he also either puts the liquid line in insulation or wraps it. He specifically said he buys it from ACE Hardware. Maybe he does this to protect it. He told me this prior to our decision to see about moving the compressor out far away from the house.

neophytes serendipity

05-13-2009, 03:06 PM

I'm going to tell them what I'd like and just shut up. Which is what I had done prior to finding the AHRI matched ystem in the Rheem that earns me the tax credit- and -on top of all that a system that must be overall less expensive to purchase.

So, how do you know what the load is?

From my digging on the tax credit stuff, no credits are given on low end equipment.

The furnace has got to be 95% or better to qualify.

AC side has got to be 16 SEER with 13 EER.

I have also noticed (on the stuff I have looked at) that the matching coils are at least .5t larger than the condenser. Sometimes, that .5t pushes the coil width to the next size up... added to the increased size of the coils compared to the old 10 SEER days to start with.

You can get a matching AC system on an 80% efficient furnace, but you must have the VS blower... and as of now, there is no tax credit yet on the VS blower by itself.

16 SEER stuff is a whole lot more money than 13 SEER stuff... same goes for 80% to 95%.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 03:08 PM

Well, the ducts didn't work fine before because you want more return air. You should be willing to pay for any service requiring the use of a tape measure.
Easy enough?

Yes, easy enough. That is a good way of looking at it for the HVAC trade. It wouldn't translate well to many other trades.

The ducts worked okay. I want -better choice of word- more return air from the second floor. I worded my thoughts poorly. The only return air from the second floor right now is what comes down the stairwell which is adjacent to the HVAC closet. I want to put one high in the second floor hallway wall and then cut some jumper ducts from the bedrooms.

Actually, I could do this after the new system has been installed as there is a big cavity on the other side of the furnace that goes right up to the second floor. The wall of this cavity contains the second return air I cut in a number of years ago.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 03:13 PM

So, how do you know what the load is?

From my digging on the tax credit stuff, no credits are given on low end equipment.

The furnace has got to be 95% or better to qualify.

AC side has got to be 16 SEER with 13 EER.

I have also noticed (on the stuff I have looked at) that the matching coils are at least .5t larger than the condenser. Sometimes, that .5t pushes the coil width to the next size up... added to the increased size of the coils compared to the old 10 SEER days to start with.

You can get a matching AC system on an 80% efficient furnace, but you must have the VS blower... and as of now, there is no tax credit yet on the VS blower by itself.

16 SEER stuff is a whole lot more money than 13 SEER stuff... same goes for 80% to 95%.

The load I calculated using HVAC-calc. It came out to 2-1/2 tons. The contractors said I needed three. The house originally had a three which cooled it.

The AHRI # is 3385978 -13eer and 16 seer.

Everyting after this is added by edit so I don't get bumped off or something.

With a boxed Rheem to get to the 13/16 you need to use a wide furnace and a wide coil. My closet won't accomodate the wide furnace. The ADP coil in the AHRI has a 5.78 sq. ft. coil face, slightly less than the 21" or 24" Rheem A coil. ADP increases the height of the coil to get this much surface area out of a 17.5" A coil. It makes the angle more acute which will probably have a restrictive effect on airflow but this is probably a good thing in this situation. It's a good thing because the spec'd ADP coil has a 1200/1800 cfm rating and the furnace max's out at 1200 CFM cooling.

There wasn't that big of a jump in the 16 vs 13 stuff as compared to the jump that there was in the single stage vs. multi stage stuff.

neophytes serendipity

05-13-2009, 03:14 PM

That is a good way of looking at it for the HVAC trade. It wouldn't translate well to many other trades.

It may not translate well in the real world. This is just an internet discussion.

Until customers create a set of specifications for a level bidding process, there are too many corners to cut.

neophytes serendipity

05-13-2009, 03:18 PM

The load I calculated using HVAC-calc. It came out to 2-1/2 tons. The contractors said I needed three. The house originally had a three which cooled it.

There is one of your problems.

HVAC-Calc just tells you the sensible and latent load (other software may work the same).

Not the actual equipment size.

There is a difference between the calculated load and the air handler, condenser and coil combination that will deliver the numbers.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 03:30 PM

[QUOTE=neophytes serendipity;3302762
Until customers create a set of specifications for a level bidding process, there are too many corners to cut.[/QUOTE]

And it's a good thing we have these discussions. I wished I'd of set out with a list of what I wanted in a bid and asked how much to bid this job this way.

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 03:33 PM

There is one of your problems.

HVAC-Calc just tells you the sensible and latent load (other software may work the same).

Not the actual equipment size.

There is a difference between the calculated load and the air handler, condenser and coil combination that will deliver the numbers.

Well, the manufactuers spec's give you the equipment size. It's all matched up in charts compressor/airhandler or furnace/coil. Everything from sensible and latent BTUH at each stage and at what CFM. The charts are pretty easy to read.

I'm thinking that by size you are referring to capacity. The physical size of the equipment is also in the spec sheets. The sizes change no where near as much as the capacities.

[The 2 pm contractor is now 36 minutes late and no phone call]

Thebil Illpay

05-13-2009, 03:42 PM

.
ADP increases the height of the coil to get this much surface area out of a 17.5" A coil. It makes the angle more acute which will probably have a restrictive effect on airflow but this is probably a good thing in this situation. It's a good thing because the spec'd ADP coil has a 1200/1800 cfm rating and the furnace max's out at 1200 CFM cooling.

And Ta Da - the txv handles the rest. It must as this is a AHRI certified match.

classical

05-13-2009, 04:42 PM

Give this guy aa call Jerome St. Pierre 152 Ponderosa Rd. St. Rose
504-466-9399 sT. Pierre's Services, inc.

energy_rater_La

05-14-2009, 10:47 PM

Well done folks.
I think that the wording..dictate...is a strong word to use and can
be off putting, tact is a good thing and gets you much more info.

Having lived in La. just about all my life I find that attitudes and tone of voice can really change the way a situation plays out.

And OP why don't you check out the La. dept of natural resources
HERO program, good program incentive for home owners to
get a rebate from the state. There are several raters in your area.

stonewall..why don't you get your pro status here?

Thebil Illpay

05-15-2009, 11:55 AM

Actually, I could do this after the new system has been installed as there is a big cavity on the other side of the furnace that goes right up to the second floor. The wall of this cavity contains the second return air I cut in a number of years ago.

I didn't cut the second floor return air in - it was there when I bought the house. Needed to clarify that. One of the contractors I had out wanted to take a look into it. Actually, still being way too nosy at this point, I did. There is a return air register all right, and a hole into the wall cavity of this double wall separated by about 6", but it doesn't appear as if it is functional. That part of the job was not originally completed.

I intend to fix that. I wouldn't ask for a quote because although it is possible, it is unlikely that an HVAC guy could do as good of a job as I could without sub'ing that part of the job out.

neophytes serendipity

05-15-2009, 12:02 PM

I intend to fix that. I wouldn't ask for a quote because although it is possible, it is unlikely that an HVAC guy could do as good of a job as I could without sub'ing that part of the job out.

Not all HVAC guys are hacks.

I have made plenty of *correct* holes in finished drywall, plaster, paneling, wood floors, concrete, block and brick.

Thebil Illpay

05-15-2009, 12:27 PM

Not all HVAC guys are hacks.

I have made plenty of *correct* holes in finished drywall, plaster, paneling, wood floors, concrete, block and brick.

It is not a matter of HVAC tech's being hacks at anything else. It's a matter of value of the tech's time. I'm looking at it realistically. The hole is already there, high in the wall, covered with a register. Why is this not functional? I've already stuck my head in and looked and there was nothing apparent-
somewhere at the intersection of the two floors and double wall there is something obstructing the airflow. The obstruction can't be seen. The easiest way to see directly what the problem is is to cut a hole in the wall, stick my head in, and look. It's going to be a carpentry and gypsum or duct board problem. Then the wall has to be repaired, refloated and retextured.

Edit: Why aren't you working rather than messing with DIY'ers?

neophytes serendipity

05-15-2009, 01:06 PM

Edit: Why aren't you working rather than messing with DIY'ers?

Well, I was laid off in January. Been off since.

Been making calls, driving to shops and sending resumes with little success.

There are about 700 other guys in my local in the same boat, some have been off a lot longer. It has nothing to do with what you know or don't know.

Most non-union shops are also slow in this area.

There's your answer.